JFK ASSASSINATION ARGUMENTS
(PART 591)


JIM HAWTHORN SAID:

Look at the trigger guard here, with its sharp edged rear angle:



[...]

That trigger guard with a straight edge at the rear is NOT on the MC [Mannlicher-Carcano]!!!

So it is a different rifle altogether! Come on someone, name this rifle!


JIM HESS SAID:

That trigger guard is definitely not right, IMO.

If it is not a re-enactment (or some other explanation), I am quite suspicious.

Good find.


JIM HAWTHORN SAID:

Here is a capture from the Tom Alyea film:




…and the picture of the mystery gun (from the same film?):




DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

It's merely the misleading angle seen in this picture of the rifle.

The video below shows several segments of Tom Alyea's film that (for some reason) are not included on Robert Groden's DVD "The Assassination Films". Groden's DVD only has a 1-minute segment from the Alyea film, but my video below includes approximately three additional minutes of Alyea's footage as it was being televised live on WFAA-TV in Dallas on 11/22/63, including the segment showing Lt. J.C. Day dusting the rifle for fingerprints.

During that "dusting for prints" segment, you can see as the rifle is being moved around by Lt. Day that the trigger guard does appear rounded (see the still photo provided below, just under the letters "LA" in "DALLAS"). It's not easy to see (the film quality is far from perfect), but it's fairly clear to me that the trigger guard is rounded (not straight).

Plus, to think that Lt. Carl Day is dusting a DIFFERENT rifle from the one Alyea filmed being taken from between the book cartons is just not a reasonable thing to believe at all, IMO. Lt. Day never handled TWO different rifles on the sixth floor on November 22nd. He handled ONE rifle---and that was Lee Harvey Oswald's C2766 Italian Mannlicher-Carcano.








ROB CAPRIO SAID:

Quite a few in the police department and D.A.'s office said the rifle was a 7.65 Mauser when the alleged murder weapon was STAMPED "MADE ITALY" and "6.5 CAL". This means if the WC and its current day defenders are correct quite a few people could NOT read rudimentary English.

How likely do you think this is?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Rob,

Anyone who repeated the "7.65 Mauser" identification was simply repeating the incorrect assumptions that were uttered by Eugene Boone and Seymour Weitzman. Very few people at the DPD actually examined (up close) the detailed markings on the weapon. I think that is fairly obvious.

A false piece of information can, as you know, spread like wildfire.

Plus, there were a variety of TV and radio reports that incorrectly labelled the rifle found on the sixth floor as all kinds of different types of weapons -- such as an Argentine Mauser, a German Mauser, a Japanese rifle, and a British .303 rifle.





Note --- In creating the above video, it was not my intention to cast a negative light on the people who reported the events associated with JFK's tragic murder. On the contrary, I believe the radio and TV reporters did an outstanding job of broadcasting the news coming out of Dallas during that weekend in 1963. And for the most part, they reported it very accurately. But some mistakes and erroneous initial reports were inevitable. And most of these early errors were even corrected on the air later in the weekend. On the whole, I salute and admire the high level of professional (and accurate) journalism that was exhibited by the many people who had the tough and very unexpected duty of reporting these terrible events to the world in November 1963. /s/ David Von Pein


JIM HAWTHORN SAID:

There's no way. Light can't create a hard straight line like that. The MC (and Mauser for that matter and Remington for that matter) has a smooth curve at the rear of the guard.

It is plainly evident in the photo that the trigger guard has a different design and what about that sliding bolt in front [of] it? The guy was obviously dusting another rifle. Either that or the photo has been retouched by a CT fanatic.




DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Jim,

The two side-by-side photos you presented above are positively from the very same film taken by WFAA's Tom Alyea. The images were exposed through Alyea's motion picture camera just seconds apart.

Go to the 3:41 mark of the Alyea video I embedded above and freeze the video at that point. And then compare that frozen screen capture with the picture of this screen capture from the Alyea film:



They are identical. The still photo above has better quality and visual clarity than the freeze-frame at 3:41 in my Alyea video above, but even with the differences in quality, you can easily see how everything lines up in the two pictures -- e.g., Carl Day's pants leg, the brick wall on the left, the boxes on the right, Lt. Day's right hand just above the scope of the rifle, the dark shadow being cast on Day's pants leg, and the shadows on the boxes on the right.

And then if you start the video again and freeze it at 3:44 (just three seconds later), you can see that the trigger guard has seemingly changed from a "hard straight line" to a rounded configuration.

So, quite obviously, it's merely the perspective and the photographic angles involved that made it appear for a few seconds in Tom Alyea's film that the trigger guard had a sharp (or straight) edge on it.

You surely aren't going to now suggest that a portion of Alyea's film was altered or "retouched" when you can see for yourself that the "straight" edge on the trigger guard was caused by a photographic anomaly that disappeared in a matter of three seconds when you watch the film in real time.


JIM HAWTHORN SAID:

David, you're right.

[...]

That "bolt" is an object behind the rifle and tends to bleed into the magazine housing.

False alarm!

What about the side strap attachment (seemingly absent from the backyard photos)?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

It must be another one of those pesky "photographic anomaly" type of things, huh?

And I'll remind you of this conclusion reached by the HSCA regarding the backyard photos:

"The panel detects no evidence of fakery in any of the backyard picture materials." -- HSCA Volume 6, Page 146

Plus....

"A comparison of the relative lengths of parts of the alleged assassination rifle that is in the National Archives with corresponding parts of what purports to be that rifle as shown in various photographs taken in 1963 indicates that the dimensions of the rifle(s) depicted are entirely consistent. .... A comparison of identifying marks that exist on the rifle as shown in photographs today with marks shown on the rifle in photographs taken in 1963 indicates both that the rifle in the Archives is the same weapon that Oswald is shown holding in the backyard picture and the same weapon, found by Dallas police, that appears in various postassassination photographs." -- 6 HSCA 66


IN A COMMENT ON YouTube RELATING TO
THIS VIDEO ABOUT THE VARIOUS ERRORS
MADE BY THE NEWS MEDIA ON 11/22/63,
BOB MINGS SAID:


Yes, there were many errors reporting the news in real time. That's why conspiracy theorists use this old info to distort the truth. 


YouTuber "FRANKIPOUX" THEN SAID:

These are not Errors but real fact...before the old Warren came in the portrait. Nice video.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Oh, so you (Frank) believe it's a fact that LBJ suffered a heart attack?

And it's a fact that LBJ was also shot?

And it's a fact that Officer Tippit was shot inside the Texas Theater?

And it's a fact that Jackie Kennedy was filmed going into the hospital from the parking lot?

And it's a fact that a Secret Service agent was killed on 11/22?

And it's a fact that JFK was taken to Parkland "by bus" (as Eddie Barker said on KRLD-TV)?

And it's a fact that Mal Couch's real name was Mal Crotch?

And it's a fact that some other people were also shot in Dealey Plaza (besides Kennedy and Connally), and those other injured persons were taken to Parkland "much later" (as reported by Dan Rather)?

And Lee Oswald's middle name was really "Harold"?

And Bill and Gayle Newman's last name is really "Nunnally" (per Jay Watson)?

And there must have been at least FIVE different rifles found in the TSBD -- an Italian "Mann-li-sher Car-chont-o" (per Walter Cronkite), plus an Argentine Mauser, plus a .303 British rifle, plus a German Mauser, plus a Japanese rifle?

And the shells were really found on the FIFTH floor, eh?

And then the assassin ran upstairs to hide the rifle on the sixth floor after the shooting (per Bob Clark of ABC)?

All of those things are "real facts", Frank? Or would you like to now pick and choose?


DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:

There are TWO AFFIDAVITS IN ANY FACT which state clearly that the rifle THEY FOUND was a 7.65 Mauser.

TWO AFFIDAVITS from a Deputy Sheriff and a DPD Officer [it was actually two Dallas County Deputies; neither Boone nor Weitzman were DPD officers], corroborated by a Detective and the Captain of Homicide.

[...]

DVP would have you dismiss these identifications, on a legally binding document, as a "belief" issue as opposed to an evidence issue.

Boone and Weitzman were not duty bound to describe the caliber and make of the rifle they found, that rifle was found on the 6th floor is more than enough, but they did not stop at "a rifle". They were very specific, one man selling rifles as a sideline and the other a sheriff with eyes and some level of intelligence.

And they did not wait days, weeks or months. These AFFIDAVITS were written the same day and the next...and signed.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

It's truly amazing that there are still people who actually believe the Tom Alyea film is lying to them and that a Mauser was found on the sixth floor instead of the rifle that the Alyea film PROVES was being picked up off the floor by Lieutenant J.C. Day---a Mannlicher-Carcano.

I was recently watching the Alyea portion of Robert Groden's DVD ("The Assassination Films") and I heard Groden say something as the Alyea film was being shown on the screen that I had totally forgotten about. Groden claims that Billy Lovelady said at some point after Nov. 22 that he was up on the sixth floor when a rifle was first discovered and that the footage we see in Tom Alyea's film is merely a re-creation. It's all a staged/fake scene of Lt. Day pulling the rifle out from behind the book cartons.

Of course, the person who filmed all that activity which certainly shows a CARCANO and not a MAUSER, Tom Alyea, has never said a word about his footage only depicting a re-creation. So I guess Groden must believe Alyea was really filming the "staged" event much LATER in the day, right? Or did the DPD just happen to have Oswald's Carcano right there with them in the building, in order to plant it behind the boxes at about 1:30 PM and then "stage" the finding of a SECOND rifle. And apparently Will Fritz or J.C. Day must have acted as film directors and told Alyea when to start filming the fake/staged scene.

The whole notion that the police found two rifles on the sixth floor is nothing but the wild imaginings of conspiracy theorists (like Bob Groden). And btw, has anybody ever seen any statement or interview with the late Billy Lovelady which has Lovelady talking about the "staged" rifle scene in Alyea's film?

Or could it be that Lovelady was so certain in his own mind (for whatever reason) that a Mauser really WAS first found in the Depository that when he later saw the Alyea film that shows a Carcano, he (Lovelady) convinced himself that the film must be showing a staged or re-created event--because Lovelady is convinced a Mauser was really found? (Sounds like a plausible scenario to me, if in fact Lovelady ever said any such thing about the Alyea film depicting a "re-creation" of the rifle being found.)

In any event, with or without Bob Groden's and/or Billy Lovelady's silly idea that the footage we see in the Alyea film depicts a staged or re-created finding of the TSBD rifle, there is ample proof to show that Weitzman's and Boone's initial "Mauser" identification was nothing but a mistake on the part of those Dallas deputies.

First, there's the Alyea film above (which is not showing a Mauser, it's showing a Carcano).

And secondly, there are the later filmed (video) statements made by BOTH Seymour Weitzman (in 1967 on CBS-TV) and Eugene Boone (in 1986 at the mock Oswald trial in London). Both men said that they were mistaken when they said in 1963 the gun found on the sixth floor was a Mauser. Were both of these deputies being coerced by somebody else to say these things on television?:





Plus, we have the conclusions reached by the HSCA in 1978 regarding the authenticity of the Backyard Photos [previously quoted above]. Did the 20 members of the HSCA's Photographic Panel just make all of that stuff up out of thin air as part of a continuing cover-up?


IN A DISCUSSION AT FACEBOOK,
MICHAEL GIAMPAOLO SAID:


I noticed Boone, at the mock trial, said he learned the rifle was a Carcano only after the FBI had their hands on it and said it was a Carcano. He did not know Lt. Day was parading the rifle in front of the press telling them it was an Italian rifle made in 1940 on the early evening of 11-22-63...I guess.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

As far as I know, Lt. J.C. Day of the DPD never uttered a word while parading around holding the rifle over his head at 6:15 PM on November 22. Day was never interviewed by the press. He merely carried the gun in silence.

As I said in one of my forum posts recently, I don't think very many people at the DPD had an up-close look at the rifle at all on Day #1. Lt. Day, in fact, *might* have been the only person who had a really good look at it (and perhaps Captain Fritz too, who we can see via Tom Alyea's film was examining the gun up close in the TSBD).

But it was Lt. Day who took possession of the gun inside the TSBD, and it was Day who carried it out of the building, and it was Day who then locked it up in a lock box at City Hall for a few hours while he went back to the Depository to take pictures.

Lieutenant Day then went back to City Hall and started examining the rifle in greater detail. Then, close to midnight, he was told to stop working on the rifle and to turn it over to Vincent Drain of the FBI, which he did.

Ergo, the initial incorrect "Mauser" reports coming from Dallas County Deputies Weitzman and Boone became the "facts" as far as many people (and reporters thirsty for details) were concerned.


MICHAEL GIAMPAOLO SAID:

I've seen a couple clips of the rifle traveling through the DPD, but never see the whole thing like I wish we did. When asked what kind of rifle it was, Day said, "6.5, apparently made in Italy 1940".

I [saw] it aired, and heard him say it on a CNN show called "The Assassination of President Kennedy" on 11-21-13.

I recorded it and just watched it again.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I don't recall that clip with Lt. Day saying something to the press. I wonder if I have it in my video collection? I'm not sure, but I'm sure going to look for it. Thanks, Michael. And my apologies for saying that Lt. Day never spoke to the press in the DPD corridors. I guess you just proved me wrong in that regard. Thank you.


MICHAEL GIAMPAOLO SAID:

Why that is not included in the clips of this historic event, I do not understand.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Perhaps it is buried in my collection someplace. I don't know. But thanks for the info nonetheless.


PAT SPEER SAID:

I watched the CNN program he [Michael G.] mentions, and can verify that the quote of Day is accurate.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Thanks, Pat.

I just did a little digging into my video archives and verified for myself that at least one TV network (CBS) was most definitely identifying the assassination weapon as a 6.5-millimeter Italian rifle as of approximately 7:00 PM (Dallas time) on Friday, November 22nd.

In the video clip below, which was aired live on CBS-TV on the evening of 11/22/63, Dan Rather of CBS News clearly calls the rifle being held up by Lt. J.C. Day an "Italian 6.5-millimeter" gun. We can't hear Lt. Day say anything; we only hear Rather's narration in this clip, but it is clear from the video that Lt. Day definitely is speaking to the members of the press at the crowded City Hall. He's probably identifying the rifle in just the manner confirmed by Michael Giampaolo and Pat Speer:





So the conspiracy theorists who continue to say that everybody on radio or television was labelling the murder weapon as a Mauser all the way through Day 1 (November 22nd) are proven wrong (just as I was proven wrong on this issue too) by the above video alone. And if CBS was reporting that the assassination weapon was a 6.5mm. Italian rifle during the evening of November 22nd, you can bet that most of the other TV and radio networks were reporting the very same thing at that same time as well.

Thanks again to Michael and Pat. Your confirmation of Lt. Day's statements in the 2013 CNN program prompted me to dig further myself. And the digging paid off. Much obliged.


GARY MACK SAID:

David,

The original KRLD-TV video tape of Day holding the rifle is in The Sixth Floor Museum's permanent collection and it has been licensed to many documentaries over the years. The audio track includes Day's first words which were, "There's no name on it." From there, going by memory, he says, "6.5mm, made in Italy, 1940."

As Day said in his museum's oral history, he was taking the rifle back to his office and held it overhead so reporters couldn't touch it. As the clock shows, the scene happened at 6:16pm on Friday and both AP and UPI wire services soon fed his words around the world.

Boone and Weitzman, who both worked for the Sheriff's Department, never saw the rifle again after they or it left the TSBD. One of the two reporters present, either Tom Alyea/WFAA-TV or Kent Biffle/Dallas Morning News, presumably reported the ID information to their offices, so that must be how the Mauser story started.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Thanks, Gary.


GARY MACK SAID:

By the way, the video of Day was not shown live; the scene was recorded at KRLD and fed to CBS soon thereafter for Rather to narrate on the network.

Gary


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Yes, I know. It's obvious that Dan Rather isn't narrating a LIVE scene taking place at Dallas City Hall. That's why I phrased a portion of my forum post in this manner (knowing full well that the clock on the wall behind Lieutenant Day was showing a time of 6:16):

"CBS was most definitely identifying the assassination weapon as a 6.5-millimeter Italian rifle as of approximately 7:00 PM (Dallas time) on Friday, November 22nd."

Thanks.


DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:

By your own admission these men KNEW it was a 6.5mm Italian rifle the evening of the 22nd, yet Weitzman doesn't sign the typed version of his affidavit until the 23rd. Boone is also aware of the ID, yet both men specify the weapon THEY SAW as something else.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

How do you know Weitzman and Boone were aware that the rifle was an Italian 6.5mm on 11/22 or 11/23? Neither man worked at the DPD/City Hall (which is where Lt. Day had the rifle in his possession). Boone and Weitzman were county officers, not DPD personnel.

That's not to say, however, that Weitzman and/or Boone COULDN'T have been present at DPD/City Hall at some point in time on both Nov. 22 and/or Nov. 23 (after all, it's probably true that Roger Craig, another of Sheriff Decker's deputies, was indeed present at City Hall on one or both of those days).

But give me some documentation that shows either Boone or Weitzman positively knew that the rifle was an Italian gun when they filled out their statements/affidavits. Is there such documentation to prove such a thing?

And how can you possibly believe a MAUSER was found on the sixth floor when we've got Tom Alyea's film staring us in the face every day which positively shows an ITALIAN CARCANO being lifted off of the floor and then examined by Lt. Day?

Do you think that the Alyea film represents a staged or phony scene on the sixth floor?

Bottom Line --- The totality of evidence coupled with the testimony of all of the police officers who were present when the rifle was found* indicates one thing for sure:

ONE rifle was found on the sixth floor of the Book Depository on 11/22/63....and that rifle (as we can see in the Alyea footage) was a Mannlicher-Carcano.

* Excluding the later lies told by Deputy Sheriff Roger D. Craig. His post-1964 observations must be dismissed, because we know he was a liar when it comes to the identification of the rifle.


DAVE REITZES SAID:

I can't believe that people insist upon arguing about what kind of rifle was found in the TSBD a whole 50 years later.

Newsman Tom Alyea filmed its discovery and examination. Police had sealed the building, so in order to get WFAA's exclusive film on the air immediately, he actually threw the reel of film out a TSBD window to a colleague waiting below.

A WFAA employee recalls that the station was in such a hurry to broadcast it that it was still wet from processing the first time it was aired that afternoon. Yet people still claim that the film is faked or staged, because they can't accept that the rifle found was Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle, the exact same one he posed with in the world-famous photographs that some people still insist are ALSO forgeries. (The House committee's photographic panel concluded otherwise.)


ROB CAPRIO SAID:

No one called it a M-C [Mannlicher-Carcano] for some time.

[...]

The weapon was changed the next day when the Klein order was "found." That is what the evidence shows and it is the only scenario that explains everything that happened.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I love it when videos like this can destroy a conspiracy theorist's worthless claims (like Caprio's quoted above).

Now, it's true that Dan Rather doesn't use the words "Mannlicher-Carcano" in this video clip below. But I think you get the point anyhow.

This clip (which depicts an earlier videotaped clip of Lt. Day holding the rifle) was aired live on the CBS-TV network shortly after 6:16 PM CST on 11/22/63.....





ROB CAPRIO SAID:

Von Pein thinks silly pictures and photographs are going to save them. They aren't.

Despite this footage [embedded twice above], District Attorney Wade was still calling the rifle a Mauser nearly six hours later. If they realized they made a mistake, why was he still calling it a Mauser AFTER it was realized it was not a Mauser, per the WC and you?

Dave refuses to answer my simple question and that says it all.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

The obvious answer that Caprio refuses to accept is that District Attorney Henry Wade was simply unaware of the fact that the rifle in evidence was an Italian Carcano.

Any statement made by Wade (or anyone else) to the effect that the rifle was a Mauser was a statement simply made in error. Such statements were merely the result of word-of-mouth and anyone who said the rifle was a "Mauser" was merely repeating the incorrect initial observations of Dallas Deputies Seymour Weitzman and Eugene Boone.

Hardened conspiracy theorists like Robert Caprio, naturally, will refuse to accept my perfectly logical explanation above. Well, so be it. I'm used to that.

BTW, shown below is Henry Wade's press conference from around midnight on 11/22/63. There are some cuts and edits in this film footage, so it's fairly obvious that not every word uttered by Wade during this press gathering is included in this video. And if Wade said the word "Mauser" to the press during this conference, you won't hear it here, which will probably prompt Mr. Caprio and Ralph Cinque (et al) to create a brand-new theory about how this film has been altered on purpose by members of the JFK conspiracy, in order to intentionally delete any reference to a "Mauser" being found in the Book Depository.

Somebody go get Dr. Cinque and ask him if he wants to add this news film to his ever-growing list of "altered" films and photos connected with John F. Kennedy's murder. This is the same conference, by the way, that includes Jack Ruby (among others) correcting Henry Wade about the Fair Play For Cuba Committee:





GENE KELLY SAID:

Doesn't it seem out of the ordinary that police would allow a news photographer to videotape the early moments of an evidence search? Alyea not only gets into the TSBD and is allowed onto the crime scene, but he photographs the critical collection/discovery of evidence. I can see a crime photographer from the DPD... but a newsman? And he is allowed to leave TSBD with his camera and film... and then it's broadcast on TV?

In contrast, others' cameras are purportedly being confiscated by the FBI and SS as key evidence (e.g. Z film)... some allegedly taken and destroyed.

I'm resisting seeing evil in everyone and everything associated with the case. But I cannot see police allowing that to happen in this day and age, much less at the scene of a presidential assassination.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Interestingly and ironically, I have previously used that exact same type of argument to EXONERATE the police of any wrong-doing or evidence-planting, etc.

Because if the cops were up on that 6th floor planting evidence and switching rifles around (and God knows what else), as many conspiracists seem to believe WAS happening shortly after 12:30 on November 22nd, then the LAST thing they'd want is a TV news cameraman FILMING all of this type of sinister activity. Does anyone think they'd WANT it on film?? That's kinda crazy.

I do, however, think it was a bit crazy to allow Alyea to stay on the sixth floor--smack in the middle of the crime scene. He was allowed access to everything on the sixth floor, it would appear. And the excuse used by reporter Kent Biffle (who was also allowed to roam freely in the building, along with Alyea) that the police "were stuck with us; what were they going to do, throw us out a window?" is totally ridiculous [see "JFK: Breaking The News"; PBS-TV; 2003].

All the police needed to do, even after the building was officially "sealed off", would be to escort those two gentlemen (Alyea and Biffle) to the front door, then open the door to let the men exit the building, and then lock the door again after the men had left. Why on Earth was that impossible to do? And yet they didn't perform that simple door-opening task. Or at the very least, the police should have kept Alyea off of the "crime scene" floor. But they didn't perform that easy task either. ~big shrug~

In summary, I do not believe for even a second that the Dallas police and Sheriff's officers were on the sixth floor monkeying around with the evidence connected to the President's murder. And therefore, I certainly don't subscribe to the unsubstantiated theory that Tom Alyea filmed merely a "re-creation" of the rifle being discovered.

It's particularly far-fetched to believe in such sinister and underhanded actions on the part of Dallas law enforcement officers when factoring in the SPEED in which such sinister actions would have been taking place.

Do conspiracists actually believe that the Dallas cops were so swift and effective (and downright evil) that they wanted to frame Lee Harvey Oswald within literally minutes of the assassination taking place? Again, that's fairy tale time.

Plus, do CTers think that the DPD just happened to have at their disposal Oswald's own Mannlicher-Carcano rifle to plant in the building very shortly after the shooting, so that Tom Alyea could film its discovery and then throw the film out a TSBD window so that the world would quickly be able to see that it was a Carcano being dusted by Lt. Day instead of the Mauser that many conspiracy theorists believe was first found on the sixth floor?

How far down "This Is Insane!" Avenue is a person supposed to travel before slamming on the brakes and restoring their common sense?


DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:

I cannot let DVP do this over and over and get away with it...

He cannot prove it was OSWALD's OWN rifle...

He can't prove or corroborate or authenticate ANY of the rifle evidence, yet you make such unbelieveably naive and insulting comments. Are you really this lost?

It is your place to get the rifle into the man's hands on the 6th floor David. Go back as far as you like, Italy for all I care, as there is nothing you can do other than manufacture evidence (like your buds the FBI) to support what you keep claiming to be true.

If you could do that you would... instead you ramble on about what SHOULD have been or COULD have been....instead of actually addressing what WAS.

HIDELL's coupon ordered a C20-T750, a scoped 36" TS rifle ordered by Kleins in Jan 1962, although they never got any TS rifles in January 1962... So the ads for a 36" scoped rifle starting in March 1962, BEFORE THE CANCELLED TS SHIPMENT... which rifles were shipped for those orders David?

[...]

You wanna guess whether the WC called Westra or Kasper? And maybe you heard of Feldsott and yet ANOTHER c2766?

Go back to bed Dave... your time has come and gone - all that's left is the comic entertainment you provide by defending the actual killers of the man.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

David Josephs' nice little rant above [more of which can be seen here] doesn't change the basic "rifle" facts concerning Lee Oswald's purchase of Carcano #C2766.

In order for Oswald to NOT be the purchaser of Carcano Rifle #C2766, it would mean that ALL of the paperwork associated with Oswald's/"Hidell's" rifle purchase was faked and manipulated (right down to Oswald's "fake" handwriting on ALL of the various documents pertaining to said purchase).

And no conspiracy theorist (not even David Josephs of northern California) has ever come within six miles of being able to prove that ANY of the Klein's paperwork was forged or planted or tainted to frame LHO.

And believing that all of that CORROBORATIVE paperwork (including the U.S. Postal Money Order made out in the exact amount needed to purchase the rifle [with scope] from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago) has somehow been falsely manufactured in order to frame an innocent man for the President's murder is--quite frankly--a very very silly idea.








And I always get a kick out of the conspiracy mongers who like to prop up Mitchell Westra's statement about Klein's never putting scopes on the 40-inch rifles. The CTers will always, invariably, leave out the part of Westra's statement where he says this:

"Undoubtably Klein's mounted some..."

But it's probably best if conspiracy theorists like David Josephs totally ignore that part of Westra's remarks in this 1978 report below:





So the very person (Mitch Westra) that the CTers love to prop up in their never-ending efforts to try and exonerate a double murderer is actually providing information that indicates that Klein's Sporting Goods of Chicago DID "undoubtably" (usually spelled "undoubtedly") mount "some" scopes on the forty-inch rifles they shipped to customers in 1963.

The irony there seems to be quite thick....isn't it David J.?

"To say that Klein's never mounted scopes on its 40-inch rifles is practically the same as totally ignoring all of the many ads that Klein's Sporting Goods was placing in magazines in mid to late 1963. Was Klein's lying to its mail-order customers when it said that a customer could purchase a 40-inch carbine with scope ("as illustrated") -- i.e., the scope is attached to the gun itself?" -- DVP; August 2, 2012

SCOPE ADDENDUM:

With respect to the conspiracy theorists' persistent claim that Klein's Sporting Goods never mounted scopes on their 40-inch Italian Carcano rifles, THIS NOVEMBER 2013 ARTICLE goes a long way toward debunking such a notion, because in that article, the gunsmith who worked in the Klein's warehouse in 1963, William H. Sharp (now 82 years old), said that he told his boss right after the assassination in 1963: “It’s my rifle, I put the scope on it”.

For more "rifle" common sense, go HERE and HERE.

David Von Pein
January 22, 2014
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