JFK ASSASSINATION ARGUMENTS
(PART 583)


BEN HOLMES SAID:

The cheek cast of LHO. Physical proof that he didn't fire a rifle that day.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

LOL. Holmes The Kook is a riot!

I ask for "physical evidence" and this is the NUMBER ONE item produced by Holmes! As if Holmes himself doesn't know how completely unreliable any such paraffin (and "cheek") tests really are. Hilarious!

And Holmes undoubtedly believes that the FBI lied through their collective ass when they said that one of their agents had tested NEGATIVELY for nitrates on BOTH of his hands AND his cheek after the agent had fired Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle after the assassination.

That must have been a lie by the FBI, right Ben? Because if the agent had REALLY fired Oswald's gun, then his cheek MUST have tested POSITIVE for nitrates, right?

In short, Ben The Kook will simply ignore the FBI test which had an agent firing CE139 and testing NEGATIVE for gunpowder residue. Or, Holmes will just lie some more. But, we're used to that.

[NOTE --- Also see THIS ADDENDUM regarding the subject of Lee Harvey Oswald's paraffin and Neutron Activation Analysis tests.]


BEN HOLMES SAID:

CE 343 [sic] is another bit of physical proof. It fails to exhibit the characteristic "chamber mark" found on all cases *KNOWN* to have been fired out of CE 139.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Ben really meant to say CE543, not 343. But we'll give the kook a break and just chalk that error up to a slipped computer digit.

Anyway, Holmes will simply IGNORE the fact that MULTIPLE firearms identification experts testified that ALL THREE of the cartridge cases found underneath Oswald's window in the Depository (of which CE543 is one) were positively fired in and ejected from CE139 (Oswald's Carcano) to the exclusion of every other weapon on the Planet Earth:


MELVIN EISENBERG -- "Mr. Frazier, returning to the cartridge cases which were marked earlier into evidence as Commission Exhibits 543, 544, and 545, and which, as I stated earlier for the record, had been found next to the window of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository, can you tell us when you received those cartridge cases?"

ROBERT A. FRAZIER OF THE FBI -- "Yes, sir. I received the first of the exhibits, 543 and 544, on November 23, 1963. They were delivered to me by Special Agent Vincent Drain of the Dallas FBI Office. And the other one I received on November 27, 1963, which was delivered by Special Agents Vincent Drain and Warren De Brueys of the Dallas Office."

[...]

MR. EISENBERG -- "After receiving the cartridge cases, did you examine them to determine whether they had been fired in Commission Exhibit 139?"

MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir."

[...]

MR. EISENBERG -- "And what were your conclusions, Mr. Frazier?"

MR. FRAZIER -- "I found all three of the cartridge cases had been fired in this particular weapon."



BEN HOLMES SAID:

Of course, the eyewitness testimony is overwhelming, which no doubt explains why trolls demand "physical" evidence.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

You'd think that if the kind of multi-gun plot was afoot in Dallas that you kooks fervently believe was afoot, you'd be able to scrape up at least a LITTLE "physical evidence". Wouldn't ya think?

Is it really asking too much for the kooks to be able to SUPPORT their nonsensical beliefs in a multi-gun conspiracy with at least ONE PIECE of "physical evidence"?

Instead, kooks like Holmes want to desperately avoid discussing the PHYSICAL evidence....because that type of evidence hangs his precious "patsy". And it always will hang him.

So, when asked for physical evidence, Holmes has to drag out stuff that is either totally meaningless (like his next item below, the Minox camera, which is a real howl) or he drags out an item (bullet shell #CE543) that really is, of course, physical evidence of Oswald's GUILT, not his innocence! These conspiracy retards are just incredible, aren't they?


BEN HOLMES SAID:

The Minox camera (and the way the FBI dealt with it) demonstrates a 'conspiracy' to hide the evidence of Oswald's intelligence connections.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

The only possible response to this item on Holmes' silly list is -- LOL!

I guess maybe Holmes thinks President Kennedy was shot with a Minox camera on Elm Street, huh?

This is how far down the "evidence chain" a mega-kook like Ben Holmes must dig in order to satisfy their need for a "plot" in the JFK case.

Pathetic, isn't it?


BEN HOLMES SAID:

Much "physical evidence" was simply destroyed. Some of which we now know about, I suspect quite a bit that we never learned of.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

This is another cop-out used by the idiots in Conspiracy Land, with the usual kook mantra being: Everything That Would Prove This Conspiracy We Believe In Has Been Faked Or Tampered With Or "Destroyed" By The Evil Cover-Up Agents Of The World.

Funny, though, isn't it, how if something has been "destroyed" that Ben Holmes KNOWS ABOUT ITS EXISTENCE AT ALL?!

And even Holmes, via his last words above, is admitting that "we never learned of" a lot of actual evidence of conspiracy in this case.

Amazing, huh?! We've "never learned" about the existence of evidence....but Holmes (somehow) knows that some "conspiracy"-proving evidence DID exist at some point in time.

That, folks, is known as --- Faith.

And rest assured, Ben's "faith" in his make-believe conspiracy will continue, unabated, until he breathes his last breath of air.

And this is a conspiracy in which the only physical evidence Holmes can seem to muster is a bullet shell that CAME FROM THE GUN OF LEE HARVEY OSWALD and a cheek cast of Oswald's which PROVES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING and a Minox camera WHICH PROVES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING and a faith-based belief that a lot of evidence was "SIMPLY DESTROYED" by people who were part of Ben's make-believe cover-up.

As I said before:

"No CTer can produce ONE SOLID PIECE OF PHYSICAL EVIDENCE to support his or her belief that a multi-gun conspiracy ended the life of John F. Kennedy. Not one." -- DVP; 06/12/09; 5:04 PM EDT

David Von Pein
June 12, 2009


================================


AN ADDENDUM,
SIX YEARS LATER:



BEN HOLMES SAID:

ANSWER THIS QUESTION DAVEY - WHY DID YOU IMPLY THAT I'VE OFFERED NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Because you haven't offered any PHYSICAL EVIDENCE of a conspiracy. None. And that's mainly because there is none to offer. So your conspiracy store is empty. There's nothing on the CT shelves, and you know it.

Some of the things that Holmes thinks are items of "physical evidence" favoring a conspiracy are things that Holmes knows have been reasonably explained in non-sinister (non-conspiratorial) ways---such as the disappearance of JFK's brain and the tissue slides from the autopsy.

And this item on Holmes' list of physical evidence that he says was "destroyed" is simply a make-believe item that never existed in the first place:

"The bullet found in the grass in Dealey Plaza."

There was no bullet found in the grass in the Plaza, of course. But Holmes will pretend it existed anyway and was then "destroyed" by the evil forces wanting to frame only Oswald. That's how a mind like Holmes' works. He can't help himself from thinking this skewed way.

As for some of those other items on Holmes' list of things that seemingly "disappeared" --- I have no answer for things like the original Nix Film going AWOL, or Babushka Lady's film, or Finck's notes, or Joe West's survey plats, or the Harper fragment, or the Parkland press conference video (or film).

But to suggest that those are items that positively lead down the sinister road of "Conspiracy" in this case is merely wishful thinking on Ben Holmes' behalf and is a leap of CT faith that is not warranted, IMO. Particularly with respect to the AWOL films taken in Dealey Plaza---because there were several unidentified people taking films and/or photos in the Plaza whose films and photos have never surfaced--including Babushka's. So why single her film out? (You can't believe Beverly Oliver, can you?)

As for the video of the Clark/Perry Parkland news conference---that's a video that I, myself, have been asking about for years as well. I would love to see (or hear) the video/film of that conference, which must have existed at one point because we have a verbatim transcript of every word of the conference, which I've put on my site, HERE.

Why the video has never surfaced is a mystery to me. But Ben undoubtedly wants to believe the written transcript linked above is an EDITED transcript....right, Ben? And if we saw the video, it would further the notion of a "conspiracy", correct? (If we did have the video, you know what Holmes would be saying about it then, don't you?)

And, yes, Ben, I most certainly did think you were talking about the paraffin cheek cast when you said this....

"The cheek cast of LHO. Physical proof that he didn't fire a rifle that day." -- B. Holmes

Almost ANYONE would think you were referring to the negative paraffin test performed on LHO's right cheek. Who wouldn't think that is what you meant? You should be more specific, Holmes.


BEN HOLMES SAID:

Then you stand corrected, and you'll immediately remove that section from your website, since it's clearly *YOUR* mistake, right?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I'm not sure the original 2009 quote is a "mistake" on my part at all. I don't know you WEREN'T referring to the negative paraffin result when you said "cheek cast". You never said "NAA" test. Why would I assume you were talking ONLY about NAA there?

And I can almost guarantee this Amazon aggregation that Holmes has utilized the "Negative Paraffin Result = Oswald's Innocence (And Therefore Equals Conspiracy)" argument in the past. (Somebody search the acj archives.)*

In addition, even from the "NAA" angle, the cheek cast result certainly is NOT physical evidence of a conspiracy at all. And that's because there's so much OTHER evidence to prove Oswald shot and killed JFK and J.D. Tippit --- with or without the NAA and paraffin tests.

Only a person in 100% denial could possibly argue with my last statement above.

Ben Holmes, of course, is just such a person.

* After just a few seconds of searching the acj [alt.conspiracy.jfk newsgroup] archives, I came up with this post where Ben Holmes was propping up the same old myth about the negative PARAFFIN test on Oswald's cheek....

"I've long been aware of the fact that when a paraffin test was done on LHO, he was positive on his hands, and negative on his face. Being positive for nitrates can have sources other than firing a gun... such as soap, or ink on books and cartons that LHO handled routinely. The fact that LHO was negative on the face would square with him firing a pistol, but NOT square with him firing a rifle."
-- Ben Holmes; June 29, 2002

-----------------

But Holmes knew, of course (even in June of 2002), that FBI agent Charles Killion had test-fired Oswald's rifle and the paraffin results on Killion's HANDS and CHEEK were both NEGATIVE. But Holmes will continue to pretend that the "cheek cast" results on Lee Oswald are some kind of evidence of conspiracy---which they are not (and neither are the NAA results).

From Page 165 of Vincent Bugliosi's "Reclaiming History"....

"To confirm that firing a rifle will not leave nitrate residue on the firer's cheeks, the FBI had one of their agents, Charles L. Killion, fire three rounds in Oswald's Carcano rifle. The result of the paraffin test conducted thereafter was negative for his cheeks and hands (3 H 494, WCT Cortlandt Cunningham; WR, pp.561–562)."


GARRY PUFFER SAID:

Davey-poo,

You're not looking very good on the NAA issue, are you?

You should just call it a day and run away as fast as your little legs can take you.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

We absolutely positively KNOW that a person can (and DID) fire three shots with OSWALD'S C2766 rifle and end up with NO nitrates on his hands or CHEEK. So what difference does it make WHAT the "Neutron Activation Analysis" (NAA) tests showed?

CTers are continually fighting an uphill battle trying to make Oswald look blameless.

But keep on fighting, CTers. There's always another hill in the distance you can try to climb.

Let me also add this quote from one of the best at doing this "JFK" stuff, Jean Davison....

[Quote On:]

"Aha, I think I see now what happened here. The fact that the documents came from the ERDA indicates that they deal with the results of the neutron activation tests done at Oak Ridge and NOT with the paraffin tests done by the DPD. Although the paraffin test on Oswald's cheek was negative for nitrates, the NA test on the same cast was *positive* for barium and antimony, two elements found in bullet primer. [see WR, 562: "The paraffin casts of Oswald's hand and right cheek were also examined by neutron-activation analyses at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory. Barium and antimony were found to be present on both surfaces of all the casts and also in residues from the rifle cartridges and revolver cartridge cases. ...." and Gallagher's testimony, XV, beginning at 746] Thus it's very possible that face casts made of someone who fired Oswald's rifle would *also* test positive for barium and antimony. This is in no way a contradiction of the WR statement that rifle tests showed negative results for *nitrates* on the cheek. Different tests, different results. Weisberg said "heavy deposits" were left on the shooters' faces, but heavy deposits of WHAT? Too bad he didn't say, but since the papers came from the ERDA, I assume he must be talking about the elements Oak Ridge tested for -- barium and antimony. If so, there's no WC dishonesty here." -- Jean Davison; July 5, 2002

[End Quote.]

Also see THIS DISCUSSION regarding the paraffin tests.


BEN HOLMES SAID:

You see, I have no fear of mentioning the contradicting evidence -- BUT YOU REFUSE TO DO SO. And that fact tells the story. You really do understand how weak your case is.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

My "case" isn't weak, Mr. Holmes. You've got to be clueless of the verified facts to say such a thing.

Also....keep in mind that the hand and cheek paraffin casts of Oswald were WASHED prior to being subjected to the NAA analysis. And the washing of the casts, according to John Gallagher of the FBI, "will remove portions of the barium and antimony from these casts" [15 H 749]....

NORMAN REDLICH -- "Did the fact that these casts were washed prior to the neutron activation test materially alter, in your opinion, the results of the neutron activation analysis?"

JOHN F. GALLAGHER -- "I can say that the washing did not remove all the antimony and barium."

MR. REDLICH -- "In your opinion, would the washing of these paraffin casts remove substantial amounts of the elements barium and antimony if they were present on those casts?"

MR. GALLAGHER -- "Chemical treatment and washing will remove portions of the barium and antimony from these casts. This was determined from test casts which were studied in connection with these analyses. But it did not remove all the barium and antimony."

[End WC Quotes.]

-----------------

Therefore, it stands to reason that PRIOR to the washing of the casts, there was very likely MORE barium and antimony present on the casts (and, hence, on Oswald's hands and face) than there was after the casts were washed.

So I'd like to know WHY conspiracy theorists prop up the NAA test at all in their zeal to prove Oswald didn't fire a rifle? The NAA test proves no such thing and everybody knows it. It doesn't even test for the presence of nitrates. So it's a completely different test (testing for different trace elements) when compared to the paraffin tests.

But the main point is --- Neither test (paraffin or NAA) proves Lee Harvey Oswald didn't fire a gun on 11/22/63. And, by the same token, neither test proves he DID fire a gun.


BEN HOLMES SAID:

Oswald came up NEGATIVE on the NAA testing of his cheek cast.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

This is an outright lie. The NAA tests, according to John Gallagher (see his testimony above), showed a POSITIVE result on all casts for the presence of some deposits of antimony and barium (the casts weren't checked for nitrates at all, remember).

And the obvious reason for there not being a lot MORE deposits found on the casts is because the casts were washed before going through the NAA process.

So it's rather humorous that any CTer would want to utilize the NAA cast tests at all, because they definitely showed some presence of barium and antimony on Oswald's face and hands.

Now, Ben, did Dr. Vincent P. Guinn WASH his casts before subjecting them to his NAA tests? (I kinda doubt he did.)

And why on Earth conspiracy fanatic Ben Holmes [in this post] is propping up the fact that NOT ALL of the barium and antimony was washed off the casts is anyone's guess. That's hysterical! That means that TWO properties that you'd expect to find on a gunman were still present on Oswald's casts during the NAA analysis.

And yet that is supposed to somehow EXONERATE Mr. Oswald and prove a conspiracy????

Incredible illogic.


DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:

Ben Holmes is digging himself ever deeper into Mother Earth with this "paraffin/NAA" thing....

How so?

Because even if I did misunderstand the exact area of "Paraffin testing" vs. "NAA testing" that Ben was talking about in this 2009 post, Ben still has nowhere to go with this statement of his:

"The cheek cast of LHO. Physical proof that he didn't fire a rifle that day." -- Ben Holmes; June 12, 2009

Because whether Ben was talking ONLY about the "paraffin/nitrate" test (as I thought he was only talking about there; and who wouldn't, given the brief post made by Holmes there?), or whether he was actually referring to the "NAA/Barium/Antimony" test --- it doesn't make a bit of difference! Because EITHER WAY, Ben's statement is a blatant falsehood....because NEITHER test constitutes "Physical proof that he [Oswald] didn't fire a rifle that day", as Ben so boldly suggested in 2009.

So Ben is cooked either way.

And I wonder why Ben thinks a POSITIVE NAA result for barium and antimony really means, as Holmes asserted today....

"Oswald came up NEGATIVE on the NAA testing of his cheek cast." -- B. Holmes; 9/16/15

And yet I am always the target of Ben's brusk "YOU'RE A LIAR, VON PEIN" attacks nearly every day at the Amazon.com JFK forums.

Pot once more is introduced to kettle.

Somebody stick a fork in Mr. Ben Holmes --- he's (over)done.


BEN HOLMES SAID:

Tell us Davey... have you read Gallagher's testimony?

If so, what reason did Gallagher, an EXPERT witness, give for being unable to "determine the significance" of the positive readings of barium & antimony on the cheek cast?

[...]

And if Gallagher, THE *EXPERT* WITNESS for the Warren Commission, was unwilling to ascribe what positive readings he got to Oswald firing a rifle - WHY ARE YOU LABELING IT A LIE WHEN I MERELY REPEAT WHAT THE WARREN COMMISSION EXPERT WITNESS STATED?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

It sounds like you're trying to walk back this lie you told earlier this month....

"Oswald came up NEGATIVE on the NAA testing of his cheek cast." -- B. Holmes

The above statement is NOT true. LHO's NAA cheek cast definitely was POSITIVE for two different elements--which were, as far as I can tell, the ONLY TWO elements that were tested for during the FBI's NAA tests.

And this 2009 statement by Holmes is definitely wrong too....

"The cheek cast of LHO. Physical proof that he didn't fire a rifle that day." -- Ben Holmes

And, btw, I have never once suggested that the positive "Barium/Antimony" NAA test proves that Oswald fired a rifle. In fact, earlier I stated precisely the opposite when I said this....

"But the main point is --- Neither test (paraffin or NAA) proves Lee Harvey Oswald didn't fire a gun on 11/22/63. And, by the same token, neither test proves he DID fire a gun." -- DVP

I'm beginning to think Ben Holmes is more mixed up on this "NAA/Paraffin/Barium/Antimony/Nitrate" thing than I ever was.


DAVID VON PEIN ALSO SAID:

Here is some more of John Gallagher's Warren Commission testimony.....

Mr. REDLICH -- And therefore the presence of a lesser amount of barium and a slightly larger amount of antimony on the inside surface was one of the reasons why you could not make a determination as to the significance of the barium and antimony on the inside surface, is that correct?

Mr. GALLAGHER -- Yes, sir.

Mr. REDLICH -- Did the fact that Oswald was believed to have fired a revolver prior to the time the paraffin casts were made have an effect on your ability to determine the significance of the barium and antimony on the inside of the cheek cast?

Mr. GALLAGHER -- The subsequent repeated firing of the revolver definitely overshadowed the results. That is why it was reported that no significance could be attached to the residues found on the cast other than the conclusion that the barium and antimony in these residues are present in amounts greater than found on the hands of a normal individual who had not recently fired or handled a fired weapon.

Mr. REDLICH -- In other words, given the known fact, or the assumed fact, that the suspect had fired a revolver repeatedly, the barium and antimony could have found their way to the suspect's cheek as a result of the repeated firing of that revolver, and therefore precluded you from making any determination as to whether the elements barium and antimony were placed on the cheek as the result of the firing of the rifle. Is that a correct statement?

Mr. GALLAGHER -- Well, there is no way to eliminate the fact that the subject may have wiped a contaminated hand across his cheek subsequent to the firing of the revolver, thus contaminating his cheek with barium and antimony.

[End WC Quotes.]

----------------------

But the above testimony doesn't mean the NAA tests were NEGATIVE. They were still POSITIVE, but Gallagher was giving a possible alternate reason for the POSITIVE reading other than Oswald firing a rifle.

But Ben seems to think Gallagher's explanation changes the POSITIVE Barium/Antimony reading to a NEGATIVE one, because Holmes said this in an earlier post (which is most definitely incorrect)....

"Oswald came up NEGATIVE on the NAA testing of his cheek cast." -- Ben Holmes

In addition, I think it's also important to note the completely honest and forthright nature of the testimony of FBI agent John F. Gallagher above (and Norman Redlich's questioning of Gallagher). The WC and the FBI were telling it like it was -- i.e., a POSITIVE result on the cheek of Oswald for barium and antimony did NOT necessarily mean that Oswald had fired a rifle on November 22nd.

And that type of honesty and frankness on the part of both the Warren Commission and the Federal Bureau of Investigation sure doesn't help out the conspiracy theorists, because many CTers have always believed the Commission and the FBI were on a mission to railroad Oswald and prove his guilt at all possible costs. But the above excerpts from John Gallagher's testimony definitely tend to disprove that notion.

So, let's stick yet another fork in Holmes. He's now burnt to an absolute crisp.


BEN HOLMES SAID:

Davey is running like a yellow dog right now. He *KNOWS* what I spoke of earlier... the relevant facts that he's omitting.

He *KNOWS* that the paraffin cast showed a *HIGHER* level of barium & antimony on the OUTSIDE of the cast ... the 'control' of the test.

He surely cannot possibly be too dumb to understand what that means.

Such INCREDIBLE dishonesty!!!

Tell us Davey - why would *anyone* believe anything you say after the lies you've told recently?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Brilliant, Benny. And somehow a "HIGHER level" of the two elements means the overall NAA cheek test was "NEGATIVE", which is what you said in an earlier post.

Is that your ridiculous reasoning process, Ben? If so, think again.

No matter how much double-talk Ben gushes forth, this statement below is (and always will be) an outright falsehood....

"Oswald came up NEGATIVE on the NAA testing of his cheek cast." -- Ben Holmes

Tell us Benji - why would *anyone* believe anything you say after the above provable lie you've told recently?

Plus, as I just said above, the Warren Commission (Redlich) and the FBI (Gallagher) were ADMITTING ON THE RECORD that, in essence, the NAA cheek test was useless and worthless when they said the positive result could not be utilized to say whether or not Oswald fired a rifle.

In other words, the test was meaningless—and Redlich and Gallagher said so! On the WC record!

So, Ben, why are you griping about it? Redlich and Gallagher, in effect, AGREE WITH YOU — the NAA test cannot be used to say if Oswald shot Kennedy.

And that honesty also shows up in the Warren Commission's final report too — on Page 562, right here.

[Another fork is now inserted into Holmes' ravaged torso.]


DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:

Pat Speer's lengthy Internet article, "Casts Of Contention", is a very interesting piece. But I can't really see how Pat's article changes the previously-linked "unreliable" determination reached by the Warren Commission on Page 562 of the Warren Report.

Speer, however, thinks that there is something "suspicious" about the way the NAA cheek test was treated by the FBI and the Warren Commission. (CTers, of course, think that a lot of things are "suspicious" in the JFK case.)

Quoting from Pat Speer's article:

"On [August 31, 1964], the Dallas Morning News runs their own article on Guinn's statements in Scotland about the use of NAA, entitled "New Test May Tell if Oswald Shot a Gun." The FBI's Special Agent in Charge for Dallas, J. Gordon Shanklin, who'd previously told the New York Times that the paraffin tests performed in Dallas proved Oswald's guilt, calls Laboratory Director Conrad and warns him about the article, written by Hugh Aynesworth. Beyond the statements by Guinn already cited, Aynesworth relates that Guinn "said when it was concluded that Oswald's guilt could not be proved or disproved from paraffin tests made by the Dallas Police, he asked the FBI to try the neutron activation analysis technique. Guinn described the experiment in this manner: A rifle similar to the one that killed the president was used. One person fired the rifle on eight different occasions and each time was given the paraffin test. 'Only one out of the eight experiments gave a positive identification,' Guinn said. Then they repeated the experiment using radioactivity. 'It was positive in all eight cases, and showed a primer on both hands and cheeks,' he said. 'Then we took the casts of Oswald's cheek and put them in a nuclear reactor. Remember that they already had been through the chemical tests which would wash particles away. I can say for the moment that we found no barium but we found antimony in every case,' Guinn added."

[End Speer Quote.]

-------------

Evidently the last thing mentioned in the above quote is apparently something that never happened at all, according to a later statement made by Dr. Vincent Guinn written on September 25, 1964, in which Guinn said he never subjected the actual "Oswald casts" to any NAA analysis at all. See Speer's article for more details.

And I want to point out and emphasize the following portion of the above excerpt from Speer's article....

"A rifle similar to the one that killed the president was used. One person fired the rifle on eight different occasions and each time was given the paraffin test. 'Only one out of the eight experiments gave a positive identification,' Guinn said."

Therefore, after performing EIGHT separate standard paraffin (nitrate) tests on a person who definitely HAD fired a rifle similar to Lee Harvey Oswald's Carcano rifle, SEVEN of the eight tests revealed just exactly the same thing that the FBI's 1964 test revealed after FBI agent Charles Killion had fired Oswald's rifle three times --- a negative result for the presence of any nitrates.

So much for the FBI/Killion test being a big fat lie (which is what some conspiracy theorists have told me they think that FBI test was---a lie).

Or do CTers also think Dr. Guinn lied SEVEN times too about the nitrate/paraffin tests he says he performed?


BEN HOLMES SAID:

You can keep right on trying to compare the paraffin test with the NAA test...and you'll *KNOW* that you're lying. Apparently it doesn't matter at all to you.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I wasn't comparing the paraffin tests to the NAA tests, Holmes. I just took notice of that interesting "7 out of 8 were NEGATIVE" stat regarding the paraffin/nitrate tests that Dr. Guinn performed, and so I just threw that in as a "bonus" for you to chew on (and spit out).

Because most CTers seem to think that the Killion/FBI test with LHO's rifle was a complete lie and merely a manufactured test so that the Feds could say -- You see, we got a false negative on a paraffin test after an agent fired Oswald's rifle three times.

But then I noticed in Pat Speer's excellent article that Dr. Guinn had apparently performed eight paraffin (nitrate) tests after a person had fired a Carcano rifle, with 7 of the 8 turning out NEGATIVE when tested for nitrates. (Although I'm unsure as to the exact number of shots that were fired in each of the eight tests, but I would assume it was probably three shots per test, to simulate Oswald's three shots; otherwise, the tests wouldn't be as accurate if used to compare to the Oswald case.)

So now I can use the FBI/Killion "false negative" test, along with SEVEN other such similar tests done by Dr. Guinn whenever some smart-aleck CTer says to me --- Oswald is innocent because the paraffin (nitrate) test on his cheek was negative.

And other explanations are certainly possible too for why Oswald's nitrate and NAA tests turned out the way they did. See my following comments below....

Re: Oswald's Paraffin/NAA Tests....

Oswald could have washed his face and hands in the restroom while he was in the Texas Theater. And then he could have re-acquired deposits of gunpowder residue (nitrates on his hands and small amounts of barium and antimony on his face) shortly thereafter when he again handled his revolver during the struggle with the police in the theater.

Another conceivable possibility is that Oswald wiped his face with his shirt sleeve (or jacket sleeve) at some point in time between JFK's assassination and the time when Oswald was given the paraffin test at Dallas City Hall several hours later.

The above scenarios are, indeed, just speculation and guesswork on my part, and they should be properly labeled as such. But they seem to me to be somewhat reasonable pieces of speculation and are certainly within the realm of possibility for Oswald to have accomplished during the 80 minutes between President Kennedy's assassination and Oswald's capture in the Texas Theater.


"IGS" SAID:

DVP, perhaps the test was VERY reliable in that it gave the expected negative result.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

That's perhaps a pretty good point (re: the negative results for the PARAFFIN/NITRATE test). Because when we take into account the Killion/FBI test plus the 8 Guinn paraffin/nitrate tests, the NEGATIVES outnumber the POSITIVES by an 8 to 1 score.

Plus, as I mentioned earlier, nobody can possibly prove that LHO didn't wash his face and hands in the restroom at the Texas Theater (or simply wipe his face with his shirt) prior to the struggle with police in the theater. That possibility HAS to exist. And therefore, if true, could account for the lack of nitrates and the relatively low level of barium and antimony on his cheek.


BEN HOLMES SAID:

Ah! Science via polling!

A new low for believers.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I was merely stating a fact, Ben --- 8 out of 9 paraffin/nitrate tests turned up NEGATIVE when counting the eight Guinn tests and the one Killion/FBI test. And we know that all 8 of those negatives were FALSE NEGATIVES, because we know that all eight of those people HAD fired a rifle shortly before being given the test.

Those statistics can't be good for the persistent and tireless conspiracy theorists who still love to insist that the negative paraffin/nitrate result on Oswald's face is rock-solid PROOF that he never fired a rifle on November 22, 1963.

David Von Pein
September 15-16, 2015
September 22-24, 2015