JFK ASSASSINATION ARGUMENTS
(PART 1319)


JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

This is a really interesting story. Because it shows just how invested in the cover story CBS was, even before the WR [Warren Report] was published.

Which is really something since that concept violates ever journalistic standard out there....

KennedysAndKing.com/CBS And Their 1964 JFK Cover-Up

Florence Graves was a truly fine journalist who was quite courageous in taking this issue on.

For me, amid all the interesting revelations in the story, the one that is key is the Bernie Birnbaum quote: CBS was working on this 1964 program months in advance! Talk about being a lapdog.

The other thing is that Salant switched their policy on outtakes, and lied about it, and he then made up the ridiculous comparison with a reporter's notes.

As I observe in the article, this is no surprise since we know Salant was a liar on the JFK case from the 1967 four-parter where he lied about McCloy being a consultant.

Amazing what the JFK case does to the MSM isn't it?


AT ANOTHER FORUM, JAMES DiEUGENIO ALSO SAID:

There is no other way to say this. CBS was in on it from the beginning.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

James DiEugenio's conspiracy-slanted opinions aside, the two CBS-TV specials (aired in September 1964 and June 1967) are, in my opinion, very good and very informative programs, with the second program (the 4-parter in '67) giving various conspiracy theorists ample airtime to voice their opinions (including Jim Garrison himself).

Many, many witnesses, including quite a few who belong in the "Very Rarely Heard From" category, were interviewed by CBS News for those two in-depth programs in 1964 and 1967 (which are interviews that I certainly appreciate having on film and videotape very much), including Abraham Zapruder, Dr. Malcolm Perry, Dr. James Humes, Darrell Tomlinson, Earlene Roberts, Cecil McWatters, Helen Markham, Garland Slack, Domingo Benavides, M.N. McDonald, H. Louis Nichols, James Jarman, Charles Brehm, William Whaley, James Altgens, Arnold Rowland, Bonnie Ray Williams, Roy Truly, Marrion Baker, Seymour Weitzman, Howard Brennan, O.P. Wright, Mary Moorman, S.M. Holland, Johnny Brewer, Marina Oswald, Murray Jackson, Charles Givens, Linnie Mae Randle, Marguerite Oswald, Ruth Paine, John Connally, Nellie Connally, Buell Wesley Frazier, Harold Norman, Jesse Curry, Ted Callaway, Carolyn Walther, Malcolm Price, Jean Hill, and George Senator.

The two CBS programs provide a veritable Who's Who of the JFK assassination, plus a very reasonable evaluation of the evidence associated with the events of November 22, 1963 (IMO).*

* Conspiracy theorists will quite naturally (and vehemently) disagree with my last statement above.

It's also good to know that excerpts from the 1964 and 1967 CBS-TV JFK specials, plus the 1964 David Wolper film "Four Days In November" and the 1993 PBS-TV three-hour documentary "Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald?", are being shown on a regular basis to college students in Wisconsin by Professor John McAdams. (And, just in case you think that Prof. McAdams shows his students only "Lone Assassin" programs, he told me recently that he shows Oliver Stone's film "JFK"—uncut—to his students as well.)








Also See:




PAUL JOLLIFFE SAID:

Jim,

I read the article and yes, CBS deserves every ounce of criticism one can level at them. For them to pretend that they somehow "objectively" evaluated the Warren Report's conclusions without access to the evidence the Warren Commission itself would not publish for another two months, is beyond absurd.

CBS lied. No one could have evaluated the WR in such a short time.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

But you do realize that CBS themselves interviewed a huge number of witnesses connected with the assassination, don't you? (See my list above.)

David Von Pein
April 26, 2019












JFK ASSASSINATION ARGUMENTS
(PART 1318)


JOHN McADAMS SAID:

Message for David Von Pein....

Your videos have been my salvation in my JFK class this semester.

Marquette has removed the ability to play VHS tapes in classrooms. So a lot of good footage I had on those tapes was no longer usable.

But I found the footage I need -- mostly the two 60s CBS documentaries, and the 1993 Frontline documentary -- on your site.

The current DVD of the Frontline documentary has key footage cut out, especially the Odio material, but other stuff too.

So kudos for your efforts.


EDWARD BAUER SAID:

John, both your and David’s websites, along with the Mary Ferrell site, are unique, valuable sources of critical information. Kudos to you all.


"CLAVIGER" SAID:

Yes indeed, Kudos!

David Von Pein has a truly remarkable website. A veritable treasury of photos, debate, and discussion. It has been most helpful to me in researching this case. The Photo Gallery is a truly valuable well-organized resource.

Any college student taking a Debate Class can learn much from study of David's logical, calm response to heated and provocative debate. Hopefully this useful academic resource will be around for a long time to come.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Thanks for the "kudos" message, John. [And my thanks to Edward and Clav, too.]

It pleases me to know that at least a few people are getting some good out of the stuff I've put online.

And I want to remind you, John, that the videos I have stored and shared through Google Drive can all easily be downloaded at the touch of a button too. The "Download" button is located in the top-right part of each Google Drive webpage:







JOHN McADAMS SAID:

Yep, and they all import fine into MovieMaker.

The only videos I show pretty much unedited are the first 75 minutes of "Four Days in Dallas" [sic] (Wolper), and the movie "JFK" (an evening session).

Otherwise, class time is valuable, so I use edited clips, such as Ruth Paine explaining the coffee klatch that resulted in Lee getting his job or Domingo Benavides describing the Tippit shooting.

As I mentioned earlier, key footage was cut out of the Frontline documentary as released on DVD, and your having it online was a godsend.

Joe Newbrough on how 544 Camp Street was entirely separate from Banister's office and the Sylvia Odio testimony are two segments I used in class last Wednesday.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

When you said "MovieMaker", are you referring to the "Windows Movie Maker" video editing program produced by Microsoft? If so, I must say that I'm thrilled to find someone else besides myself who still uses Windows Movie Maker (.WMM) to create and edit videos on their computer. (I thought I might have been the last person in America who was still using it.) 😁

Personally, I like Windows Movie Maker very much. It's a pretty basic, no-frills program, but it's always worked fine for me and it has everything I really need --- even the older versions which I'm now forced to use when I get a new computer, due to the fact that new versions of WMM have unfortunately been discontinued by Microsoft. The biggest negative thing about WMM is the fact that it won't let you import MP4 videos into the interface. So I've always got to convert all of my MP4 files into WMVs so they'll be compatible with "Windows" (WMM). And I would guess that you too, John, have had to convert some of my MP4s into WMVs first, before you were able to use the files inside WMM, right?

BTW --- I'm going to forgive you (this time), John, for getting the name wrong of the best JFK assassination documentary ever produced. The proper title of David L. Wolper's stellar 1964 motion picture is, of course, "Four Days In November" (not "Four Days In Dallas"). 😉

BTW #2 --- Speaking of the "Four Days" Wolper film, here's something else that might be of some use to you, John —— A few years ago I culled various highlights from the film and put them on this webpage. The highlights include the "re-creations" which Wolper filmed with some of the witnesses (such as Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae Randle, and William Whaley).

The videos on that webpage are "Blogger" videos (instead of "Google Drive" uploads), but they can be downloaded if you know the "trick". The trick is: After pressing the Play button, right-click TWICE with your mouse cursor hovering over the video player. After the second "right-click", you should see a "Save Video As" option among the menu choices. Clicking "Save Video As" will allow you to download the video. It will be an MP4 download, however, not a WMV. But at least my "Blogger" videos can be downloaded. It's a method that works when using the Firefox browser anyway. I'm not sure about the success rate of this venture when utilizing other browsers. (It was by pure accident a couple of years ago that I stumbled across the above method for downloading a Blogger video. And I'm glad I did, because it's come in handy several times since then.)


JOHN McADAMS SAID:

I don't particularly like excessively complex and difficult-to-learn software when what I have to do is simple.

Mostly, I've just been using it to take your longer videos and cut out key segments to use in PowerPoint slides I use and class, and upload for the students to study.

Pretty much all the stuff I've edited so far has been in older formats. Especially, all the stuff you have uploaded is in formats that MovieMaker can handle.

MovieMaker outputs MP4, which is good because, if one puts something online, browsers now have native MP4 support. Instead of calling up Flash, a simple HTML command shows video.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Well then, John, we must be talking about two different video editors with the name "Movie Maker". Because all of the versions of Windows Movie Maker that I have ever used do not output MP4 files. WMM only renders and saves videos in Windows Media Video (.WMV) format.

But maybe you're using a newer version of WMM. I'm using Version 2.6.


JOHN McADAMS SAID:

I have version 16.4.3528.0331.

Dated: 2012.

I'm running it under Windows 8.1.

My copy does import MP4.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Ten-Four.
Roger.
And Wilco.

😁


RAMON F. HERRERA SAID:

I have made this public offer and will keep on repeating it:

I will upload ANYTHING provided/requested by the JFK community to my/your/our new video channel [which no longer exists].

[...]

Now, let's go in the David Von Pein issue....

I have made this public offer to David Von Pein and will keep on repeating it:

I will convert any photo from the DVP archive to 3D models. If the scene is in Dealey Plaza, the accuracy will be 3mm. This one seems like a perfect first candidate, taken seconds after the shooting:



It was taken from west of the triple underpass, with the kids waving and the 12:30 Hertz clock in the background. A 3D model/video can be done, with the car speeding.

-Ramon
JFK Numbers (and videos)


RAMON F. HERRERA LATER SAID:

So, David, I am confused. You are sending mixed signals. You tell me one thing in a private mail, then you say the opposite in public.

Are you a supporter of bringing your (flat earth) treasure trove to the wonderful world of 3D?

The least gesture we (the JFK Numbers team of 3D designers) can do is give you the privilege of selecting the first scene.

So, what do you say?

ps: Oh, I forgot something: do NOT select any photo where the presidential limo appears. Why? Because you will have to sign the petition, hopefully led by Pamela, to have the blueprints released to The People.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Ramon,

When have I ever stated "in public" that I was not in favor of any of your "JFK Numbers" projects (whatever they might be)? ~shrug~

If you want to create 3D models of some of the Dealey Plaza photographs, go right ahead. I'm all for it. Sounds like a cool idea to me. And if any of the photos on my websites will help you with any of your "3D modeling" projects, go ahead and use them (keeping in mind the fact that I own none of the copyrights on any of those photos)——which are the exact same things I told you in this November 25, 2018, e-mail:

"That would be great. I'm all for it. And if some of my photos (or videos) on my sites can help you in that endeavor, feel free to use them all you want. .... I'm all for it. I can't see any reason why I should be AGAINST such a project. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "the numerical parts of the case", but, my ignorance aside, if additional information concerning the events of 11/22/63 can be gleaned by the "best universities" in America (or abroad), then I'm certainly in favor of it. Good luck." -- 11/25/2018 E-Mail From DVP To Ramon Herrera


RAMON F. HERRERA SAID THIS.


REPLAY....
RAMON F. HERRERA SAID:

The least gesture we can do is give you the privilege of selecting the first scene. So, what do you say?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

How about this one below? A detailed 3D model of this 11/22/63 aerial photograph (with accuracy to within "3 millimeters", per Ramon Herrera's 4/22/2019 estimate) would be interesting to see:




ALLAN G. JOHNSON SAID:

That photo of Dealey Plaza cannot be of the afternoon on Nov. 22, 1963. There are no people, police, newsmedia on the streets that were there during the motorcade and after the shooting, just routine traffic.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

You're wrong about that, Allan. This picture was definitely taken on the afternoon of 11/22/63. Take note of the various Dallas police cars parked up on the sidewalk on the north side of Elm Street, which matches some of the other photos that were also taken on November 22nd.

BTW, that particular photograph of Dealey Plaza and its "November 22" caption can be found on page 350 of Richard Trask's outstanding 1994 book, "Pictures Of The Pain", where Trask also explains that the photo was part of a series of aerial shots taken "some time in mid-afternoon on that Friday" (Nov. 22nd) by a photographer named Jerry Cabluck.

David Von Pein
April 22-27, 2019











JFK ASSASSINATION ARGUMENTS
(PART 1317)


JOHNNY BREWER AND THE
SHOOTING OF J.D. TIPPIT....


PAT SPEER SAID:

[Johnny] Brewer said he knew a policeman had been shot when he observed Oswald outside his store. This was roughly 15 minutes after the shooting. Well, did someone report the Tippit shooting on the radio within 15 minutes of the shooting? That seems mighty quick, considering there were no police or reporters on the scene, and they would need to be on the scene before a radio station would even think about reporting such a story, right?

Anyone know?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I've often wondered which one of the several Dallas/Fort Worth radio stations Johnny Brewer was listening to when he was standing behind the counter of his Hardy's Shoe Store on the afternoon of November 22, 1963. He doesn't provide that information in his Warren Commission testimony, nor does he provide such info in his December 6, 1963, affidavit or during his brief time on the witness stand during the 1986 mock Oswald trial in London. Such information is also not available in Dale Myers' exhaustive book on J.D. Tippit's murder, "With Malice". [EDIT -- I was in error re: Myers' book; Click Here.]

Perhaps in some later interview Brewer mentioned which radio station he was listening to on November 22nd, but I've never been able to pin it down. That particular detail is also not to be found in Brewer's February 27, 1964, FBI interview.

In any event, it's quite clear that at least one of the radio stations in the Dallas-Fort Worth metro area had provided, prior to approximately 1:36 PM (Dallas time), a bulletin concerning the shooting of a police officer in Oak Cliff. We know that whatever radio station Johnny Calvin Brewer was listening to on 11/22/63 most definitely did broadcast such a bulletin (most likely somewhere between 1:30 PM and 1:35 PM).

I agree with Pat Speer that the timing of that initial bulletin concerning the Tippit shooting does seem very fast, given the fact that Officer Tippit wasn't even shot until about 1:14 or 1:15 PM, but the alternative would be to believe that Brewer just made up the part about hearing a radio report about the shooting of a policeman before Brewer ever laid eyes on Lee Harvey Oswald on November 22.

Or, I suppose another alternative would be to believe that Brewer merely conflated the various timelines in his mind when he later told his story about what happened that day. That is to say, via this alternative, Brewer really only heard the information about the shooting of a police officer much later in the day, but his memory got all fuzzy and when he later told people what he remembered, he incorrectly said that the radio report concerning the policeman was something he had heard prior to Oswald poking his head into the lobby of Brewer's shoe store.

Analyzing The Radio Coverage....

If, in fact, Johnny Brewer definitely did hear a radio report about a policeman being shot prior to the time when Brewer saw Lee Oswald lurking in the doorway of the shoe store, I can say with some certainty that one of the stations that Brewer was definitely not listening to on 11/22/63 was KLIF Radio in Dallas [But, then again, maybe he was; see this footnote]....and that's because a timestamp provided by the KLIF announcers during their coverage at 1:48 PM CST indicates that the first KLIF bulletin concerning the shooting of a policeman in Oak Cliff didn't occur for another 14 minutes after that "1:48" timestamp, which would mean that KLIF's first bulletin on the Tippit shooting came at 2:02 PM CST (give or take a couple of minutes). And, of course, by 2:02 PM, Lee Oswald was already in police custody and, in fact, had just entered Dallas Police Headquarters in City Hall a couple of minutes earlier. (The initial bulletin about the Tippit murder comes at 2:25:45 in the video below.)




Another local station that can be eliminated as being the one John Brewer was tuned-in to on 11/22 is Fort Worth's WBAP Radio, which didn't broadcast anything about the shooting incident in Oak Cliff until approximately 1:58 PM CST (go to 4:00:15 in the video below).




KRLD Radio (Dallas) can also be eliminated as the source for Brewer's information about the Oak Cliff shooting. By my calculations, the first details heard on KRLD about the shooting of a policeman occurred at 2:04 PM Dallas time (at 1:23:31 in the video below).




KBOX Radio might have been the station that Johnny Brewer had turned on that day, because within the first minute of the KBOX coverage heard below (which equates to about 1:35 PM CST), there's a bulletin which states: "We also have one Dallas detective reported dead on arrival at Parkland Hospital." (If that report was referring to Officer Tippit, then there are two errors in it, because Tippit was taken to Methodist Hospital, not Parkland, and Tippit, of course, was not a "detective". But later radio reports did also make the mistake of calling the slain policeman "Detective Tippit". So that KBOX bulletin probably is referring to Officer Tippit's death. And if that's the case, then Johnny Brewer could have heard about the Tippit shooting prior to seeing Oswald come into the lobby area of his shoe store. And it's also possible that KBOX could have provided a bulletin about the policeman's shooting even earlier than 1:35, but I have no way to confirm whether they did or not, because the version of the KBOX material in my collection begins at about 1:35 PM.)




Another station that's still in the running for a possible pre-1:35 PM bulletin about the Tippit shooting is Dallas' WFAA Radio. I can't confirm one way or the other whether WFAA broadcast any Tippit bulletins prior to about 1:45 PM, because that's when my copy of their coverage begins. But WFAA was very quick with their first bulletin concerning Oswald's arrest in the Texas Theater, which is a bulletin that occurred within a very few minutes of Oswald's capture (at the 4:20 mark in this WFAA Radio coverage).

For the record, the only other Dallas/Fort Worth radio station that I currently have in my assassination archive is a little bit of coverage from KXOL in Fort Worth, but it has been heavily edited and cannot be used for any kind of a reliable timeline of events.


STEPHANIE GOLDBERG SAID:

That's great information. In this case, it's just as important to know who didn't do what and when as who did.


TONY KROME SAID:

Julia Postal was listening to KLIF and did not hear anything about an officer being shot before police arrived:

[Quoting from Julia Postal's Warren Commission testimony:]

"And they raced in, and the next thing I knew, they were carrying----well, that is when I first heard Officer Tippit had been shot because some officer came in the box office and used the phone, said, "I think we have got our man on both accounts." "What two accounts?" And said, "Well, Officer Tippit's," shocked me, because Officer Tippit used to work part time for us years ago. I didn't know him personally."

This implies that Brewer did not mention to Julia Postal anything about an officer being shot.


MARK KNIGHT SAID:

Mr. Von Pein, I want to thank you for your research on this specific topic. I hardly expected it, based upon your tendency to rely on the Warren Report, Bugliosi, and Myers. It has changed, somewhat, my opinion of your work. Glad to see you not relying on mere faith in the aforementioned triumvirate, and instead checking outside sources, such as the radio broadcasts you checked.

Amazed, but glad you stepped outside that "Bermuda Triangle."


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I'm certainly willing to accept the possibility that Johnny Brewer might have gotten mixed up concerning the precise time when he first heard the news about a police officer being shot in Oak Cliff. Perhaps he did hear that news a little later in the day. But also keep in mind the 1:35 PM KBOX report about the DOA "detective" (which is a remarkably speedy bulletin, because KBOX not only was reporting on the wounding of a police officer, they were already reporting on the death of that policeman as early as 1:35), which tends to indicate that at least one Dallas-area radio station was reporting the officer's shooting at a time which would be perfectly consistent with Johnny Brewer's account of only seeing Oswald after hearing about the policeman's shooting on the radio.

The KBOX audio footage I provided does not, however, give the necessary detail about the shooting taking place in Oak Cliff, but, as I mentioned earlier, it's possible that such an "Oak Cliff" detail was mentioned in an earlier KBOX bulletin, which preceded the point in time when my truncated copy of the coverage begins.

In any event, even if Brewer didn't hear any pre-1:36 PM radio bulletin concerning the Tippit shooting, it's still quite clear to me from the weight of John Brewer's testimony and statements over the years that Brewer was suspicious of Lee Harvey Oswald's behavior and actions shortly after 1:30 PM on 11/22/63 (such as: Oswald turning his back to the street just as the police cars went roaring by).

And if some conspiracy theorists have a desire to totally discount and deem invalid all of Mr. Brewer's testimony because of this issue of whether he really did hear a radio bulletin at the time he said he heard it, then I think those conspiracists are making a big mistake.

As it turned out, Johnny Brewer was the person who was most directly responsible for setting the wheels in motion which ultimately led to the capture of President Kennedy's (accused) assassin in the Texas Theater less than 90 minutes after JFK was shot.

And I have a strong feeling that those wheels would have been set in motion that day with or without Mr. Brewer hearing anything on the radio about a police officer getting shot nearby. And that's mainly because of Lee Harvey Oswald's appearance and actions when Brewer saw him. Brewer could see that Oswald was "scared", "looked like he had been running", and was trying to duck from the police cars out on the street. And all of this was occurring just an hour after the President had been shot and killed just a few miles away. Those factors, in total, resulted in Brewer taking the actions that he took on November 22, 1963.

BTW / FYI....

Below is a CBS-TV interview with Johnny Brewer from 1964. In this interview, Brewer says this: "Just a few minutes before he [Oswald] walked into the lobby, on the radio they had a bulletin that an officer had been shot here in Oak Cliff."




TONY KROME SAID:

Do you know if Brewer warned Postal about the guy being possibly armed and dangerous? It would have been obvious to Brewer if he thought the same guy had just shot someone.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I don't recall anything like that coming out in Julia Postal's testimony. But, interestingly, in that 1964 CBS-TV interview, Brewer claims that in addition to the fact that he said Oswald was acting scared, he (Brewer) was also relying on the physical description of the suspect in the President's assassination ("5-8, 5-9, 150 pounds").

Brewer said he had heard that description on the radio before he ever saw Oswald that day. Brewer actually implies in the '64 interview that he had also heard the description of Tippit's killer being given out on the radio as well (although when he refers to the shooting of the officer, it's quite possible that Brewer was still talking about the description of the man suspected of shooting the President).

But I think there might, indeed, have been a bit of unintentional "conflation" on Mr. Brewer's part concerning the timelines and when he might have heard certain things on the radio.

The 1964 CBS interview had previously led me to speculate that Brewer possibly might have been listening to a police scanner on November 22nd in his shoe store. But after checking Brewer's Warren Commission testimony, I learned that the "police scanner" idea could not be accurate, because Brewer told the Commission this: "We were listening to a transistor radio there in the store, just listening to a regular radio program."


TONY KROME SAID:

Could it be that Brewer didn't say anything to Postal because Brewer knew the man since he had previously sold him a pair of size 8-1/2 crepe soled shoes, and maybe he thought, even though he's acting strange, he did not believe he was the shooter?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Then why did he follow Oswald up the street to the theater? Just for the exercise?

And why did Brewer ask Postal to call the police? Did he do that because he DIDN'T think the strange-acting man who was ducking the police sirens had done anything wrong that day?


TONY KROME SAID:

No, I'm saying Brewer viewed both the strange actions of the man and the cops tearing up the street as somehow related, then decided to follow who he thought [to] be a suspicious person, but [not] necessarily an armed shooter.

In other words, since we can't find a radio broadcast that mentions an Oak Cliff shooting together with a description of the suspect, Brewer followed him only for the reasons mentioned above.

BTW, Brewer has stated that he thinks it was KLIF he was tuned into that day.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

When did he say that?


TONY KROME SAID:

Brewer said that to ex-detective Ian Griggs back in 1996 when he was interviewed.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

OK. Thanks.

[EDIT -- I've located the text of that 1996 interview with Johnny Brewer. It can be found here. On the second page of the interview—here—Brewer does, indeed, say that the radio station he was listening to on 11/22/63 could have been KLIF. But he then adds, "but I honestly don't know".]







JEFF CARTER SAID:

Your collections of material are much appreciated, and in this case they indicate there was no radio broadcast 15 minutes after the shooting which could have provided Brewer with a "description". The reporting which did occur some minutes later refers to a suspect in a white shirt.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

But it depends on which "shooting" you're referring to. If you mean the Tippit shooting, then I think you're right---there was no radio report regarding the shooter's description put out within 15 minutes (or so) of the Tippit murder. But there was most definitely a "description" of President Kennedy's assassin broadcast on the radio, and that description was aired on KLIF Radio (the station that Tony Krome just said Brewer was listening to) as early as 12:54 PM (Dallas time), which would corroborate what Brewer said to Eddie Barker in his CBS-TV interview in 1964 when Brewer said this:

"Right after the President was shot, they broadcast a description on the radio of this man..."

If, in fact, Brewer was listening to KLIF Radio that day, the description he would have heard at 12:54 PM would have initially come from a female telephone operator at the Dallas Police Department, who quickly provided the description of the alleged Presidential assassin for a KLIF reporter who was recording the phone call for later broadcast. The description she provided was: "White male, 30 [years old], 5-10, 165, 30-caliber rifle, and I believe it was at Elm and Houston where it came from; now I don't know definitely and I don't like to say." [The audio can be heard below.]




And then, two minutes later at 12:56 PM, KLIF's Gary DeLaune repeats the description (a little slower and clearer this time, with DeLaune adding two key words—"slender build"—to the description):




For the record, the "5-10, 165 pounds" description was repeated again just three minutes later on KLIF, at 12:59 PM CST, and then yet again four minutes later at 1:03 PM.

That description that was aired multiple times by KLIF, of course, doesn't quite match Johnny Brewer's figures that he provided in his '64 CBS interview. He said in that interview that the description he heard concerning Kennedy's assassin (not the description of Tippit's killer) was "5-8, 5-9, 150 pounds", which is not accurate. But that error can likely be attributed to a slightly bad memory on Mr. Brewer's part.

But there is one KLIF bulletin (aired at 1:08 PM) which says that the assassin of JFK was "approximately 5 feet, 8 inches tall [and] weighs about 160 pounds".

--------------------------

FOOTNOTE --- After re-examining my KLIF-Radio file, I've now discovered that there are 7 minutes of missing audio footage in the first 2-and-a-half hours of my 3-hour and 17-minute copy of KLIF's 11/22/63 assassination coverage. From the timestamps provided by the on-air reporters, I've been able to determine that the missing seven minutes occur between precisely 1:37 PM and 1:44 PM (CST). This, therefore, leaves open the possibility that a bulletin concerning the Tippit shooting could have been broadcast by KLIF during the AWOL seven-minute period. However, if such a bulletin was broadcast during that time period, it would likely have been at a time when Johnny Brewer wasn't even inside his Hardy's Shoe Store to hear the bulletin on his transistor radio, because Brewer by that time had probably already left his store and followed Oswald up the street to the Texas Theater. But we must always keep in mind the fact that nobody was looking at a stopwatch or a clock when these events were unfolding on Jefferson Boulevard in Oak Cliff on November 22nd, so the word "approximately" must always be inserted into discussions like this one when we're talking about "timelines", etc.


TONY KROME SAID:

Julia Postal was listening to KLIF. She said to the police when she phoned them:

"I said I hadn't heard the description."


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

And yet we know for a fact that KLIF definitely did broadcast a "description" of a "suspect" (in the Kennedy murder), and KLIF re-broadcast that description at least three times before 1:10 PM. And yet Julia apparently heard none of those re-broadcasts, even though she was listening to KLIF. ~shrug~

Or are you going to LIMIT it to a description of TIPPIT'S killer (from Postal's POV)? Even though Postal was obviously NOT (in her mind) limiting any "description" of the suspect to JUST the shooting of the police officer....

MRS. JULIA POSTAL [at 7 H 11] -- ...so, I told Johnny about the fact that the President had been assassinated. "I don't know if this is the man they want," I said, "in there, but he is running from them for some reason," and I said "I am going to call the police..."


DAVID VON PEIN ALSO ADDED:

Related Topic....

Julia Postal's December 4, 1963, affidavit is quite an interesting document too. In it, Julia says:

"At approximately 1:30 PM or a little later I was working in the ticket office at the theater. I was listening to my transistor radio, and KLIF had just announced that President Kennedy was dead. I had just seen a police car go west on Jefferson. As the police went by, a man ducked inside the theater. .... I stepped from the box office to the front and looked west. When I turned around, Johnny Brewer, Manager of Hardy's Shoes Store, was standing there."

The above details would seem to buttress and corroborate the testimony and statements of Johnny Brewer as well.

By the way, KLIF officially announced the death of President Kennedy at precisely 1:35 PM CST (which would have been two minutes after Assistant White House Press Secretary Malcolm Kilduff had made the official announcement of JFK's death from Parkland Hospital). So Julia Postal's estimated time for when that event occurred was just about spot-on perfect.


CORY SANTOS SAID:

David, thank you for noting yet another "strange coincidence" with the clock. I shall add it to my JFK collection. Now, assuming you are right about the broadcast at 12:54, who was the female officer and where did she get this info? I doubt Howard Brennan was so astute.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

It wasn't a female "officer". It was, as I said earlier, a female telephone operator at the Dallas Police Department. KLIF gave the name of the operator too---it was a "Mrs. Cripton" (sp?) or something similar to that.

And she got that description, quite obviously, from her own police department. It was the official APB bulletin that went out over the air to all Dallas police officers at 12:44 or 12:45 PM CST. And, yes, it's a description that very likely originated (at least in part) with Howard L. Brennan. (The part about the "30-caliber rifle" didn't come from Brennan, however, since Brennan didn't know beans about rifles.)


CORY SANTOS SAID:

Then, explain who added slender build and on what basis.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

That detail probably came (originally) from Howard Brennan too. (Just as he says in his 11/22 affidavit.)


CORY SANTOS SAID:

Then, explain the basis of the 1:08 description.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Yeah, I agree, that one is strange. KLIF's 1:08 PM description of the same suspect suddenly changed to "approximately 5 feet, 8 inches tall, about 160 pounds".

I haven't the foggiest idea how the President's killer managed to shrink two inches and lose five pounds in just five minutes (from 1:03 to 1:08).

So, Cory, does this slight "description" discrepancy mean that I'm supposed to toss aside all of the other evidence in this case that clearly indicates that Lee Harvey Oswald was a double murderer on 11/22/63?

Heaven help all reasonable people if that is what you're suggesting. :)


CORY SANTOS SAID:

I find it odd when weighing credibility of witnesses you tend to give far latitude to some and none to others. What FACTS make you give Brewer wide latitude here? In other words, a judge uses facts to weigh witness credibility. What facts make you feel it was just an "oops, bad memory" blunder? Thank you.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Because the "bad memory" explanation makes by far the most sense (in my opinion).


DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:

Here's an e-mail exchange I had with Dale Myers on April 19th and April 20th, 2019....

Subject: J.C. Brewer and the Tippit radio report
Date: 4/19/2019; 5:05 PM EDT
From: Dale K. Myers
To: David Von Pein

-----------------------------


David,

I was alerted to this thread and found your comment:

“...Such information is also not available in Dale Myers' exhaustive book on J.D. Tippit's murder, "With Malice"....”

to be incorrect.

My work on this issue was quite exhaustive and appears as endnote No. 617 (pages 738-739 of the 2013 Edition of “With Malice”) which I’ve pasted below for your convenience. Please give credit where credit is due.

Dale

============================

"With Malice: Lee Harvey Oswald And The Murder Of Officer J.D. Tippit" by Dale K. Myers (2013 Edition); Endnotes on pages 738 and 739:

“[617] 7H2 (WCT [Warren Commission Testimony] of Johnny Calvin Brewer, April 2, 1964)

[Note: The exact time that Brewer heard the radio broadcast on the shooting of Officer Tippit is not known, although it was very likely broadcast at about 1:31 p.m. over KBOX radio.

There were five major radio stations covering the Dallas area -- WFAA (570 AM), WBAP (820 AM), KRLD (1080 AM), KBOX (1480 AM), and KLIF (1190 AM). All of them routinely monitored the Dallas police radio. A review of archival recordings made by the four [sic; actually five] radio stations show that neither the shooting in Oak Cliff nor its location was broadcast until after Oswald was arrested at 1:51 p.m. However, the archival recordings of two of the radio stations – WFAA and KBOX – do not cover the entire assassination period. The WFAA recordings begin at 1:47 p.m.; KBOX recordings begin at 1:35 p.m.

A 1:59 p.m. KBOX report from newsman Sam Pate repeats information known to have been previously broadcast, including a report about the Tippit shooting (“Moments ago a police officer reported to have been shot down at Tenth and Patton in the Oak Cliff area. Several squads of police, approximately twenty men, ordered to the Oak Cliff area. A late word shows that the police officer was dead on arrival at Methodist Hospital.”). This KBOX report on the Tippit shooting was probably broadcast earlier on KBOX shortly after 1:31 p.m. when it was reported over the Dallas police radio that Tippit was DOA at Methodist Hospital.

During a 2005 interview for The Sixth Floor Museum, Brewer said that in addition to hearing a report about the Tippit shooting prior to Oswald’s appearance in front of Hardy’s Shoe Store, he also heard a radio report that the President had died. (Interview of Johnny C. Brewer, The Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza, November 21, 2005)

In his 1964 Warren Commission testimony, Brewer said that the president’s death was only a rumor. (7H2)

Texas Theater ticket-seller Julia Postal was more specific about the timing of Oswald’s arrival at the theater. “I was listening to KLIF [on a little transistor radio], and I was down in the little box office, and they kept saying that Parkland hadn’t issued an official report, that [President Kennedy] had been removed from the operating table, and everyone wanted to surmise, but still hope...” (7H9 WCT of Julia Postal, April 2, 1964)

According to Postal, they had just announced that Kennedy was dead when Oswald ducked into the theater. (24H221 CE2003, p.50, Affidavit of Julia Postal, December 4, 1963)

KLIF archival radio recordings show that at 1:27 p.m. KLIF announcers began reporting the “strong rumor” that the President was dead. The official announcement came eight minutes later, at 1:35 p.m., nearly simultaneous with the Dallas police radio call for all units to report to the library at Marsalis and Jefferson – the call that was no doubt responsible for the police activity that drove Oswald to seek refuge in the lobby of Hardy’s Shoe Store and moments later, the Texas Theater.

A KLIF radio log entry suggesting that the Tippit shooting and its location were broadcast shortly after White House press secretary Malcolm Kilduff’s 1:33 p.m. news conference on the president’s death, as reported in the 1998 edition of this volume, is misleading. A review of the actual recordings shows that newsman Roy Nichols’ brief report (“...there was a shooting a moment ago of a police officer in the 500 block of West Jefferson in Oak Cliff and he was dead on arrival at Methodist.”) wasn’t broadcast until 2:02 p.m. (KLIF, Dallas, Radio Log, November 22, 1963, Reel No.5, p.8, Entry #23, “Report of shooting of Police Officer in the 500 block of West Jefferson in Oak Cliff a few minutes ago.” Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library, Ann Arbor, MI)]”

[End "With Malice" Quotes.]

============================

DVP's E-Mail Reply To Dale Myers....

Subject: Re: J.C. Brewer and the Tippit radio report
Date: 4/20/2019; 1:11 AM EDT
From: David Von Pein
To: Dale K. Myers

-----------------------------


Hi Dale,

Thank you very much for the information regarding Johnny Brewer and the Tippit radio broadcasts that appears in Endnote No. 617 of the 2013 edition of your book, "With Malice".

What I should have said in my Internet post on this matter is that the topic concerning Brewer and the radio stations isn't covered in the 1998 edition of "With Malice", which is the only edition of your book that I currently possess. I don't have the 2013 edition at the present time.

The excerpts you have provided via your book's extensive Endnote #617 contain a lot of useful information on this topic. And I was very happy to verify that my own research that I've been doing this week (while utilizing the resources in my own audio/video collection) has been very close to perfect when it comes to some of the specific timestamps of the various radio bulletins that were aired on several of the Dallas-area stations on 11/22/63. Per the figures in your endnote, I hit some of them right on the nose---even though I had no access to any kind of "Radio Logs" for each of the stations. I'm very pleased about that. And I'm pleased to now have a second source (the endnote in your book) with which to verify some of those timestamps.

Thanks again, Dale. I appreciate it very much.

Regards,
David Von Pein

[End E-Mails.]


JIM HARGROVE POSTED ALL THIS GARBAGE.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Even after all these years of putting up with the silly rantings of conspiracy theorists, it still burns both sides of my toast when I hear these CTers insist that Lee Harvey Oswald didn't fire a single shot at Officer J.D. Tippit---despite the fact that Sweet Lee was caught red-handed with the Tippit murder weapon in his hands just 35 minutes after murdering the 11-year veteran Dallas patrolman.

Plus, I'd like to know how on this Earth Tippit could have been declared "DOA" at Methodist Hospital at 1:15 PM (as many conspiracy theorists firmly believe) when we know that his body was still lying in the middle of Tenth Street as late as 1:18 PM?

The ambulance didn't even arrive to pick up Tippit's body until 1:18:59 PM [see Dale Myers' "With Malice", page 104, 1998 edition].

Let me guess --- Conspiracy theorists think that the Dudley Hughes ambulance slip is a fake too, right? That ambulance call slip was stamped with the time of 1:18 PM ["With Malice", page 101, 1998 edition].


JOHN IACOLETTI SAID:

Myers’ argument is that there is “strong evidence” that Brewer heard the report on KBOX merely because the other stations can be ruled out. That’s not strong evidence. I think false memory is the more reasonable conclusion. He needed a more solid justification for his suspicion of the guy who “looked funny”.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

And, as I mentioned previously, KLIF is most certainly still in the running as the radio station Johnny Brewer was listening to on November 22, due to those 7 missing minutes that I cannot account for, beginning at 1:37 PM.

Plus, there were a few other radio stations in Dallas in 1963 that haven't been brought up in the discussion that are possible candidates too --- WRR, KVIL, and KSKY. As of today (April 21, 2019), none of those stations can positively be ruled out as Brewer's station(s), and that's because the archived 11/22/63 recordings from those stations have not made their way into public circulation yet. But I'm hopeful that one day soon those recordings will become available.

According to this forum thread started earlier this month by Denis Morissette, the National Archives is planning on digitizing (and—hopefully—releasing to the public on the NARA website) many hours of audio material from those radio stations I just mentioned above (plus two others).


JOHN IACOLETTI SAID:

I tend to agree with you, though, that 1:37 would be too late.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Well, yeah, John, I was thinking that same thing too (and you'll recall that I said that very thing in my previously posted “Footnote” regarding the KLIF coverage).

But then I started to think that perhaps 1:37 isn't too late after all. After all, 1:37 is just a mere one minute after 1:36, and 1:36 is the time that the world's leading researcher on the Tippit murder, Dale Myers, has used as the precise time when Lee Oswald appeared in the lobby of Brewer's store. So a 1:37 KLIF bulletin would not exactly be a million miles away from what Mr. Myers believes.


JOHN IACOLETTI SAID:

I’ll have to re-read it, but I don’t see what the basis could possibly be for claiming that 1:36 is a precise time.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I agree. A bracketed time range would probably be more proper (such as, 1:30—1:40).

David Von Pein
April 18-20, 2019
April 21, 2019

================================





ANOTHER ONE:



================================












JFK ASSASSINATION ARGUMENTS
(PART 1316)


BEN HOLMES SAID:

David Von Pein Hides Behind His Website....

David Von Pein is rightfully terrified of debate with knowledgeable critics, and has—in recent years—remained far away from real debate... preferring instead to cite his website.

That his website is filled with lies and unsupportable claims doesn't bother him... it shields him from looking stupid.

But only to people who are unaware of the other side of the argument.


BEN HOLMES ALSO SAID:

This "extra copy" doesn't demonstrate that anything at all was deposited...



I can create a "deposit slip" showing that I deposited 15.7 million dollars to my bank account.

And it would mean just as much as the exhibit that the Warren Commission accepted as evidence.

Tell us David, if I show you a unstamped deposit slip with a 15.7 million dollar deposit to my account, will you accept a 15 million dollar check to purchase your home?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

The "extra copy" might not have even been sent to the bank by Klein's.

Alternatively, if the extra copy of the deposit slip did get sent to the bank by Klein's, how do you know there isn't a bank stamp on the back side of that deposit ticket? Can you prove there's not a bank stamp there?


BEN HOLMES SAID:

You're just a failure, David Von Pein... and perhaps that's why you're afraid to debate in an open forum with critics more knowledgeable than yourself.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Ben's a liar, lurkers. He knows the above statement is a lie, because he knows that I've debated various "critics" in "open forums" hundreds of times in the past. He knows this because I've debated him in "open forums" dozens of times in the past.

Ben is a chronic liar. (Surprise!)


BEN HOLMES SAID:

Sorry moron, I wasn't discussing the past. I stated "YOU'RE AFRAID TO DEBATE IN AN OPEN FORUM WITH CRITICS MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE THAN YOURSELF."

And that's a true statement.

I said nothing about the past. You've been schooled repeatedly in the past. (Hmm... perhaps I'll start reposting some of those, since you refuse to debate now.)

You illustrate it again in this post by running from EVERYTHING I stated.

Certainly you've been spanked and schooled in the past. But you've learned your lesson, and are now TERRIFIED of open debate.

You're *PROVING* that statement true RIGHT NOW!

And in addition to proving yourself a coward, you'll show your dishonesty by failing to post **THIS** post - as is - in your websites.

You can't... you've been outed as a liar and coward in this post.

The only one lying right now is you. Why is that, David?

If you're unwilling to defend it in open forum - why do you cite?

You just want to tell lies, and not pay the price?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

So, unless I respond to your cockeyed crap EVERY SINGLE TIME you desire a response, I'm a coward, eh? Is that the way it works in your silly little mind, Holmes?

I've "debated" virtually every JFK sub-topic with you (or other CTers) in the past, all of which are archived on my website. (Hint: That's the whole idea of putting them on one website---to "archive" past discussions, so that I don't have to repeat myself over and over again a million times. Why is such a concept so foreign to you, Ben Holmes?)


IN THIS 2011 ARTICLE, DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

The fact that we have discrepancies like the "February 15" deposit slip existing in the record at all is, in my opinion, much more indicative of NO CONSPIRACY connected with items like that deposit slip than it is with the type of vast "Every Document Is Phony" plot that a lot of conspiracy theorists believe in today.

My last paragraph above is either pretty accurate...or: the alleged patsy-framers screwed up YET AGAIN with a piece of evidence in this case.

I wonder how many stupid, reckless, idiotic errors the conspiracy theorists are willing to allow their patsy-framers before they put on the brakes and realize that such discrepancies WOULD NOT EXIST AT ALL if there really had been a concerted effort by a band of plotters to doctor and manipulate all of the evidence in the JFK case?


BEN HOLMES SAID:

March 13 ... February 15...

Yeah, common mistake... anyone could make a mistake like that...

NOT!


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Ben's either lying (again), or he could just be misinformed about the dates. Ben's date comparison above should read like this....

March 15 ... February 15...

The "March 13" date doesn't apply when talking about the error on the extra copy of the Klein's deposit ticket, as I explain here.

Ben Holmes' year-round attempts to exonerate a double-killer named Oswald are always amusing. But, I guess it makes him happy and content to pretend that LHO didn't shoot anybody on November 22, 1963. I guess everybody needs a hobby.


DAVID HEALY SAID:

LMFAO! Can you prove LHO was in that window at 1230PM 11/22/63? What a bullshit artist!


"BORIS" SAID:

Jesse Curry couldn't.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:




"BORIS" SAID:

Keep denying Curry ever said they couldn't place Oswald in that window with the rifle, pond waste.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Keep pretending that Curry was relying on ABSOLUTELY NOTHING (evidence-wise) when he said this about Lee Harvey Oswald on November 23, 1963, Mr. Conspiracy Fantasist....

"I THINK THIS IS THE MAN THAT KILLED THE PRESIDENT." -- Jesse E. Curry; 11/23/63

David Von Pein
April 16-17, 2019

================================





================================






JFK ASSASSINATION ARGUMENTS
(PART 1315)


STEPHANIE GOLDBERG SAID:

Where did Oswald develop the infamous gun photos?

If Marina took the gun photos of Oswald on March 31, 1963, where did they have the film developed? And when?

If Oswald was still working at Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall [sic] then, he could have potentially developed them himself, except I think he lost his job right around then, didn't he?

A note from Seth Kantor's notebook in the Warren Commission exhibits
[at 20 H 376] says in part---

"Ask Fritz --

1 - Who N.C. preacher who tipped them about the mail-order purchase?

2 - 501 Elm is place that processed photo. What are details of photo (showing gun & Daily Worker head: "Be Militant")"


501 Elm is the Dal-Tex building, isn't it? Did they have a photo processing facility in March of 1963 among their offices? I couldn't find that information. And where did Mr. Kantor obtain this information about where the photo was allegedly processed?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Good questions, Stephanie.

I don't think I've ever heard anything about where the backyard photos might have been developed and processed.

But if it could somehow be established that one or more of the various backyard snapshots had been handled and processed by "XX Drug Store" or "XX Photo Lab" (or wherever), it would help to show that the photos were developed via normal non-sinister means and, therefore, are likely legitimate (i.e., non-fake) photographs.

But, as Stephanie herself alluded to in her opening post, it's very possible that Lee Harvey Oswald himself might have developed the backyard photos while he was still employed with Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall in Dallas. It would appear that Oswald had six days of opportunity before he was fired (between March 31 and April 6, 1963) to take advantage of the processing facilities at Jaggars after the time when the backyard pictures were most likely taken (which was probably on March 31st).

I'll check Vince Bugliosi's book and see if he's got something in there about this topic.*

* EDIT --- Here's what I found:

"Oswald asked his [Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall] coworker Dennis Ofstein whether the company equipment could be used to make copies of prints and enlargement of photographs that had been taken in small-format cameras. Ofstein told him that while Jaggers [sic] didn't sanction the use of company equipment for private projects, people did it now and then. He showed Oswald how to do it and watched as Oswald made photographic enlargements of snapshots taken in Minsk and while Oswald was in the service in Japan. Lee would later also do some other work that Ofstein never knew about, making calling cards for George de Mohrenschildt as well as Marina and himself. He also experimented with making photographic copies of some of his own documents—his birth certificate and his military and draft registration ID cards—which he would soon use in attempts to create crude forgeries. It was also during this period that Oswald started sending samples of his photographic work, apparently carried out in stolen moments at Jaggers [sic], to leftist organizations back East.

[...]

Oswald probably intended the backyard photographs to be of great historical significance, telling Marina the photos were "for posterity." He may have intended to leave them for inclusion in the dossier he was compiling on his assassination of General Walker. Or they could have been another exhibit he could flash at Cuban leaders who were going to welcome him with open arms when they realized that he was the one who killed one of Castro's greatest American enemies. If anything went wrong with his plan, the photo could still serve as a memento. Several days later, after developing and printing at least three of the negatives at Jaggers [sic], he gave Marina a print, on the back of which he had written, "For Junie, from Papa." Marina was appalled. "Why would Junie want a picture with guns?" she asked Lee. "To remember Papa by sometime," he said.

Sadly, the photographs did in fact turn out to be of historical significance, not because of Lee's bungled attempt to kill General Walker but because of his all too successful attempt to murder John F. Kennedy. One of the three received the accolade of becoming a front cover of Life magazine, and it has been reprinted countless times in newspapers, magazines, books, and television documentaries. The photograph Marina took that Sunday afternoon has become the enduring universal image of, for some, the assassin of President Kennedy, for others, the helpless patsy caught in the vortex of a dark conspiracy. Whichever it is, one thing is reasonably certain. It is the image by which, more than any other, Lee Harvey Oswald wanted to be remembered, not just by his baby daughter but by the entire world. And that wish came true."
-- Pages 666, 685, and 686 of "Reclaiming History"


The two sources listed for this assertion by Bugliosi....

"after developing and printing at least three of the negatives at Jaggers"

....are:

1 H 16, WCT Marina N. Oswald

and:

McMillan, Marina and Lee, p.341.

Since there's nothing on 1 H 16 that says anything about Lee developing the pictures himself at Jaggars, that must mean that "Marina And Lee, Page 341" is the source for the info about Lee developing "at least three of the negatives at Jaggers [sic]".

I can't check Page 341 of the 1977 edition of Priscilla McMillan's book (I don't have it). So I'll have to assume that McMillan says something on that page that made Vincent Bugliosi 100% positive that Lee Harvey Oswald himself developed three of the backyard photos at Jaggars in early April of 1963. What that "something" might be, I haven't the foggiest. And Bugliosi's firm, definitive stance on this matter is even more questionable when we consider the following HSCA testimony provided by Marina Oswald in 1978:

~~~~~~~~~~~

MR. McDONALD -- "Do you know if Lee developed these by himself, at his place of employment?"

MRS. MARINA OSWALD-PORTER -- "I think once he worked somewhere, it was possible to do it at work, I believe. I really do not know if he developed himself or he send it for."


~~~~~~~~~~~

Mr. Bugliosi was probably right about LHO developing the backyard photos himself while Lee still worked at Jaggars (what with Lee having easy access to the photo-processing facilities at Jaggars just after the pictures were taken—and what with Lee also being such a cheapskate and all), but given the way Marina testified above, I think Vince should have probably phrased the relative sentence on page 685 of his book in this manner instead:

"...after PROBABLY developing and printing at least three of the negatives at Jaggars..."

But Vince is usually pretty good (and accurate, IMO) when it comes to his "reasonable inferences". Here's another example:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/Bugliosi And The Smelly Bus


STEVE THOMAS SAID:

Stephanie,

According to the 1961 Dallas Yellow Pages, there were a number of publishers that had their offices at 501 Elm:




JOHN BUTLER SAID:

Steve Thomas has 501 Elm Street listed in a reference. This is the Dal-Tex building. The book companies were still there if I am recalling correctly in the spring and then moved to the TSBD in the summer of 1963.


STEVE THOMAS SAID:

John Butler is absolutely right. The pages I posted were from a 1961 City Directory and are not helpful in your search for 1963 occupants of the Dal-Tex Bldg.

I should have done a better job in my research.


STEPHANIE GOLDBERG SAID:

So at that point in time, Oswald was working at (and about to be unemployed by) JCS. He was living at the Neely Street address. Are either of those addresses considered near the Dal-Tex building? The Neely Street address doesn't look close to me on a map, considering that Oswald was probably stuck to the bus, taxi or a friend with a car.

The Dal-Tex building may have had a photo developing business there or a camera shop, but we have yet to determine that one way or another. It is awfully conveniently located to his future employment at the TSBD. Were there any government offices at 501 Elm in 1963?

I'm not trying to prove that Marina took that photo (or the other gun photos). I'm not trying to prove that Oswald had the film developed. I am curious where Seth Kantor acquired that information and why some source told him that they thought that the photos had been developed there.

And I am curious where Oswald would have acquired the disposable income to have photographs developed, especially if his employment of record was so poorly paid and so sporadic. Perhaps it was that secret nest egg that funded his trip to Russia?


CHRIS SCALLY SAID:

Do I correctly recall a wall-mounted list of occupiers on the outside of the TSBD in a photo/film (the Cook film, perhaps?) taken in the immediate aftermath of the assassination? If my memory is anything like I think it is, the companies Steve identified in an earlier post are on the wall-list of the TSBD, which was at 411 Elm, not 501 Elm.

PS....Just found that Cook frame [below].




JEFF CARTER SAID:

The Imperial Reflex camera used 12-exposure spools of 620 film. The Backyard Photo prints found with Oswald’s possessions were printed using “drugstore print” finishing (description courtesy HSCA panel), which means an automated process common in drugstores, photomats, etc. This indicates a 12-exposure spool of film was inserted into one of these machines to produce the BYP prints (rather than using an individual negative).

No other “drugstore” finished photos were found with Oswald’s possessions, and the other photo from the time (March 1963) matched to the camera (photo of Walker house) and found with the Oswald possessions was not in the drugstore format, and was therefore developed at another time.

An important question that investigators did not ask is whether the photo ID’ed as 133-C came into the hands of the Dallas police also as a “drugstore” print.

The Seth Kantor note is intriguing, but unsourced and otherwise lacking further context. A photo developing activity tied to that address would need one of those automated machines to be responsible for the two BYPs (133 A/B).

My speculation is that both [of] the two BYPs and the Walker house photo were either given to Oswald by persons he knew, or they were planted. Or, cutting it finer, the two BYPs were planted, and the Walker house photo had been given to him in March 1963.


STEPHANIE GOLDBERG SAID:

This is all good information! Thank you to EVERYONE who has posted here! 🙂

The address issue is a bit confusing, but I understand what's been said so far. I have to think on this for a bit, but as far as the publishing companies moving en masse, we know that the TSBD building was taken over in 1963 for the purpose of school books, yes? Or was it? Can we fix the date of the move of those companies from their previous address as shown above and into the TSBD building? How does that correlate to Oswald's move to New Orleans?

As far as the method of development, that is extremely interesting. If you believe that Oswald developed them, then they were potentially done while he was at JCS. He had opportunity there, but did he have the means? Were there machines at JCS which could develop prints by the drugstore method? (I wonder how the HSCA determined that the prints were developed by the drugstore method? Is there any record that the Warren Commission or the HSCA tried to locate the drugstore at which they might have been developed?)

It's curious that the only other print matched to that camera (the Walker house) was not developed the same way. Back then, developing film was something of a luxury for people of limited means. You'd think that every print on the roll of twelve would show the same type of developing. So if the Walker house print was developed separately, how/when was it done?

The article by Ms. Minor is fascinating. I wouldn't have stumbled onto that one on my own!

I have yet to read Mr. Bugliosi's book or Ms. McMillan's. (I'm like years behind everyone here in research, so thanks for the quotes!)

And yes, I know the Seth Kantor note is unsourced. It's a tantalizing “what if” at best, but it started me thinking. So many things seemed to have been unresolved from the early research of many people who were on the scene. Could be dead ends. Maybe not. -shrugs-


STEVE THOMAS SAID:

If John [Butler] is right, those publishing companies would still have been located in the Dal-Tex building at the time the photos were taken. I wonder why they moved en masse?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Here's some more info that might clear up the confusion about why the various book publishers all moved from 501 Elm Street (the Dal-Tex Building) to 411 Elm Street (the TSBD Building)....

The text below comes from these two sources:

http://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=48681#relPageId=25

http://deeppoliticsforum.com/411 Elm Street's Mysterious History

-----------------

"1952 – the TSBD management and clerical personnel at Pacific Avenue building relocated to the first floor of 501 Elm St (the Dal-Tex building). At some point, Jack Cason decides to lease the building across the street, 411 Elm St. There is some confusion about when this happened. O.V. Campbell told William Weston that this happened around 1958. Spaulding Jones, former branch manager of MacMillan Publishing, thought the move to 411 took place in 1957 or 1958.

[...]

1962 January – the TSBD acquires the 411 Elm St location, leasing it from D.H. Byrd (SS report CO-2-34030 12/7/1963) The Polk’s criss-cross 1962 business directory shows that the TSBD was still listed as having an address on the first floor of 501 Elm St (Dal-Tex Bldg). The same directory lists the 411 Elm St building as vacant. The 1963 directory lists the book companies at 411 Elm. Also that year the first floor of the Dal-Tex becomes vacant. (William Weston)"



REPLAY....
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Mr. Bugliosi was probably right about LHO developing the backyard photos himself while Lee still worked at Jaggars...


DAVID G. HEALY SAID:

Nah, LHO creating composites that implicates himself? Common sense Sherlock. He'd of burned up a ton of print paper getting the composites aligned and correct. And it would take time... lots of time.

[...]

No, this took a pro.

Are you sure it wasn't Dale “wanna see my EMMY” Myers who wrote this nonsense you quote?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Well, David H., the facilities at Jaggars were certainly there and available for Oswald to use (if he, indeed, knew how) during that brief 6-day period in question (April 1-6, 1963, just before he was fired).

And if it could somehow be proven that Oswald did, indeed, develop the backyard pictures himself (which can probably never be done), then it would certainly eliminate for all time the decades-old (and also unproven) notion that the backyard photos are fakes.

Because, as you yourself implied, why would Oswald himself be creating and developing a series of fraudulent composite pictures that implicate himself? That idea, of course, is nuts.

David Von Pein
April 13-14, 2019