DAVID VON PEIN
VS.
DAVID LIFTON


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

The bottom line in the Kennedy assassination is not whether “Oswald was guilty” (he wasn’t) or whether he “acted alone” etc. The bottom line is whether, in connection with President Kennedy’s assassination, a strategic deception was employed (perhaps “deployed” is a better word) to hide the truth and create a false solution to the crime.

I am referring, of course, to the notion that the President’s murder was simply the result of a person firing three shots from a bolt action rifle from a sniper’s nest on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. Either that is the truth, or it is a construct fabricated as part of a sophisticated strategic deception.

Ultimately, that's what this case is all about--and, in the long light of history, that's the way it will be viewed.

In other words, the bottom line is whether it was planned in advance to falsify the key evidence so as to frame a pre-selected scapegoat, and create a false reality which was then fed to the media in real time, and then went into the main arteries of all subsequent investigations.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

And as part of this "sophisticated strategic deception", the conspirators decided it was a good and sensible idea to make it as difficult as humanly possible to hide the conspiracy by deliberately firing all of the shots at President Kennedy from the FRONT, while firing ZERO shots from the rear (which is where they planted their one and only patsy named Oswald). Is that correct, David L.? (Not to mention the difficulty that the plotters deliberately set up for themselves regarding the altering of the President's wounds after the shooting.)

I think we can take out the word "sophisticated" in David Lifton's above quote and replace it with "idiotic". Because that latter word is much more appropriate.

Please, David Lifton, explain to me what was going through the collective minds of those silly conspirators in the days and weeks before JFK went to Dallas? Were they all just nuts when they DELIBERATELY tried to frame a guy in the DEPOSITORY by firing ONLY from the Knoll? Please explain the logic of that decision. I doubt that you can reasonably explain the logic of that decision, because it defies all logic and rational thinking, and is a plan that only a total lunatic would undertake.

In addition -- How do you, David L., explain away witnesses like Howard Brennan, Amos Euins, Bob Jackson, and Mal Couch -- each of whom said they saw with their own eyes a rifle sticking out of the sixth-floor window on the southeast end of the Book Depository at the exact time when the President was being shot with rifle bullets on Elm Street?

Did those witnesses merely see a person who was only PRETENDING to fire a gun at JFK? You don't think that sixth-floor rifleman fired ANY shots from that gun seen by those witnesses?


video


And what about Harold Norman? Was he lying when he said he HEARD the rifle being fired from directly above him in the Depository? Is Harold yet another one of the many people you must call a liar in this case, DSL?


video


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

On the London Education Forum, David Von Pein recently cited the existence of witnesses to someone firing a weapon from the SE corner 6th Floor window and challenged me to defend my position that, based on such evidence, I was wrong in asserting that President Kennedy was struck only from the front (which derives from my reading of the Dallas medical reports and testimony).

I do not think you (or your pal Vince Bugliosi) have ever understood what the Kennedy murder was all about. You both seem to view it as a simple homicide. But it was not. It was not simply about "killing the President"; It was about murdering the President and getting away with it.

That could not have been accomplished by simply firing shots and leaving the evidence undisturbed, because the evidence, in that case, would have pointed to the guilty party.

And by "the evidence," I am referring to the standard view of "the evidence" in this case. Surely you are familiar with that "evidence": The rifle, the shells, etc.

So that's why, in this case, the evidence had to be altered, messed with, replaced, substituted, planted, choose your own terms; and that's why the standard techniques of investigation did not (and will not) work in this case. Critical evidence has been changed, and replaced with a false overlay, if you will.

Some of that was done before the actual shooting (and I'm referring here to the creation of the so-called "sniper's nest"); and some afterwards (e.g., the planting of a bullet on a stretcher, or bullet fragments in the presidential limousine).

Unfortunately for you and your pal, Vince Bugliosi (who I suspect vets most of your posts, assuming he does not provide actual draft materials for your posts) [LOL! Lifton's hilarious!] he views Dealey Plaza (and Oswald) as if he were retrying the Manson case. A madman was responsible; a psycho named Oswald.

But Oswald was not Charlie Manson, and Vince Bugliosi doesn't seem to understand that. And I doubt he ever will.

If the President's body was altered, then this was a body-centric plot; that is, it was a plot not just to murder President Kennedy by shooting him, but then (i.e., afterwards) to alter the medical facts of the case (i.e., alter the wounds, remove bullets, etc.) -- all of that done to change the story of how JFK died. To alter the "medical facts" and thus change the "legal facts" as to how JFK died for the FBI, and for any subsequent investigation, whether it was a presidential commission, a congressional investigation, whatever. It would not matter.

Viewed that way, this was a plot "with a built-in cover-up"--and was akin to a piece of domestic espionage.

[...]

If the wounds were inflicted from the front (only), then what you're witnessing on the sixth floor of the TSBD is a diversion. Is that so difficult to grasp?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

But David Lifton seems to totally ignore the VERIFIABLE FACT that he is DEAD WRONG about the wounds only being inflicted from the FRONT.

The idea that NO shots struck either the President or Governor Connally from behind is so unbelievably wrong, false, and utterly STUPID, I don't really need to say anything more.

And it's not just JFK who was PROVABLY struck TWICE from behind with rifle bullets, but it's also John Connally too, who was PROVABLY struck one time from BEHIND.

Why do you, David Lifton, feel the need to totally ignore Dr. Robert R. Shaw's statements and testimony? And what about Governor Connally HIMSELF? Connally never once even HINTED that he was shot from any other direction than FROM BEHIND. He felt a bullet hit him in the upper back and he always said it "felt like someone hit me with a balled-up fist" -- IN THE BACK, which had to have come FROM BEHIND the Governor at the time he was hit.

Question for Mr. Lifton -- Has even ONE other human being on the face of this planet called "Earth" said they agree with your theory about NO shots at all striking JFK or John Connally FROM BEHIND? If one such other person exists on this planet, please provide his name, because I've never heard about him.


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

So of course the body was altered, and the doctors at Bethesda recognized that. Immediately. That's why Dr. Humes said--and this was written down by the two FBI agents witnessing the beginning of the autopsy--that it was "apparent" that there had been "surgery of the head area, namely, in the top of the skull."


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

The "surgery of the head area" crap is yet another myth that Mr. Lifton, like a child named Linus who can't bear the thought of getting rid of his trusty security blanket, refuses to let go of.

Perhaps you, Mr. Lifton, haven't heard the 2005 C-Span interview with James W. Sibert [embedded below], who was one of those two FBI agents who witnessed portions of JFK's autopsy at Bethesda:



Of particular interest during the interview are several portions of Mr. Sibert's detailed re-telling of the things he witnessed during President Kennedy's autopsy at Bethesda, such as when Sibert talks about the "surgery of the head area" remark made by lead autopsy surgeon James J. Humes, with Sibert laying to rest the incorrect speculation about this remark.

And there's also the important details revealed by Sibert concerning the bullet fragments that he saw that night in 1963, i.e., the two very small metal fragments that were removed from President Kennedy's brain and then handed over to Sibert and placed in a glass jar [Warren Commission Exhibit 843].

The size of these small fragments, as repeated by Sibert during the 2005 interview, measured 7x2 millimeters and 3x1 millimeters.

The verbatim quote shown below should put to rest the erroneous idea that any whole (or nearly whole) "missile" was recovered during any part of JFK's autopsy on 11/22/63:

"There was no large bullet of any kind there at Bethesda during this autopsy that was found." -- James W. Sibert; June 30, 2005

The other FBI agent at the autopsy, Francis X. O'Neill, also confirmed in this 1979 video that only fragments were recovered from JFK's body, not any whole bullet.

The so-called "missile" handled by Sibert and O'Neill on November 22 consisted of very small FRAGMENTS of metal removed from JFK's head -- fragments only. How do we know this for an absolute ironclad fact? Two reasons:

1.) Dr. Humes, et al, were searching desperately during the autopsy for a bullet (or bullets)--ANY signs of a bullet or bullets!--inside JFK's body. They found NONE. Zero. Zilch. Only the small fragments in the head. Nothing else.

And:

2.) No whole "bullet" (or nearly whole bullet) was entered into evidence by Sibert, O'Neill, or anybody else connected in any way to President Kennedy's autopsy. The only whole bullet in the entire case is Commission Exhibit 399. Period. And that wasn't found at Bethesda.

If a whole "bullet" (or "missile") had been found at Bethesda, then that bullet would be part of the evidence on the table in this case TODAY. The reason that none of the three autopsists testified to seeing a whole bullet during the autopsy is because no such "bullet" exists....and never did.

The 2005 interview with Sibert also pretty much (all by itself) destroys the credibility of David Lifton and his fairy-tale book "Best Evidence", inasmuch as Lifton relied very heavily on the observations of FBI agent Sibert to try and support a good chunk of the nonsensical "body alteration" assassination theory that appears in that book.

But, as Sibert explains in no uncertain terms during his 2005 interview, the "surgery of the head area" remark made by Dr. Humes was not referring to any type of covert "surgery" done by evil conspirators prior to the Bethesda autopsy (which is covert surgery that Mr. Lifton firmly believes did take place, in order to alter the wounds on the President's body). Listen to the 2005 interview and hear Sibert's explanation for the "surgery" remark.

So much for Mr. Lifton's "Best Evidence".


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

Are you so wedded to the idea that Oswald was a murderer that you cannot conceive of a plan to frame him for a crime he did not commit?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

To reciprocate:

Are you, David S. Lifton, so wedded to the impossible notion that President John F. Kennedy's body was secretly stolen off of Air Force One and his wounds altered by an unknown group of conspirators on November 22, 1963, and so wedded to the additional foolish belief that every shot that hit the two limo victims came from in FRONT of the car, that you cannot even conceive (for even a moment) that your outlandish theories just MIGHT be inaccurate?

The JFK case has a very curious effect on certain people (such as David Lifton of Los Angeles) -- They treat the evidence as if it's something that needs to be molded and crafted into something that it is not. In plainer terms, they simply IGNORE all the evidence of Lee Harvey Oswald's lone guilt in the assassination of the 35th President, and they expect the masses to fall at their feet and give thanks to these expert "researchers" like Mr. Lifton who have literally made a mockery out of the true evidence in this case.

Body alteration....casket-switching....bullet-planting...."diversions" in the Sniper's Nest window....NO SHOTS hit the victims from behind....and "Oswald Was Nothing But A Patsy" are the mottos endorsed by this band of JFK conspiracists.

And, incredibly, ALL of the above cloak-and-dagger hocus-pocus (aka: hogwash) is supposedly, per the likes of David Lifton, providing a MORE REASONABLE and MORE LOGICAL and MORE RATIONAL and MORE TRUTHFUL explanation to the events in Dallas on 11/22/63 than to simply believe that the evidence in this case has NOT been forged, faked, or manipulated and, therefore, Lee Harvey Oswald was just exactly what the evidence in this case says he was --- a double-murderer.

Somebody please provide Mr. Lifton with a dictionary -- because he evidently has no idea what the definitions are for words like "Reasonable", "Rational", "Logical", and "Truthful".


JAMES GORDON SAID:

David,

You did not properly read what David Lifton said. The crucial sentence - which you correctly quoted - was prefaced with the word “if.”

David Lifton's point is that the critical shots were fired from another source, other than the back. .... Lifton did not say live rounds were not fired from the rear: he simply said that the shots fired from that direction were a diversion to keep attention from the main source of shots.

In effect he is saying that shots were fired from both front and back - and that the most critical of those two sources were the shots being fired from the front.

I have no problems with that analysis.

If I have correctly understood what David Lifton has said, then it is clear you have misunderstood what he said.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Oh, come now, James. You know darn well what Mr. Lifton was saying -- he was saying that he believes ALL the shots that hit anyone in the limousine came from the FRONT, with no shots hitting anyone from BEHIND the President's car.*

And he also implied an additional element of pre-assassination lunacy by actually saying that the assassins designed it that way--with the plotters knowing (well before November 22nd, obviously) that they were going to attempt to frame a guy in the Depository, even though they had no intention at all of firing any shots at JFK's body from the place where they were going to frame the patsy--the 6th floor of the TSBD--even though they COULD have simply shot JFK with the useless "diversionary" rifle that the Oswald look-alike had in his possession in the Sniper's Nest.

But the goofy plotters decided it was MUCH better to make things as difficult as possible for themselves--so they shot JFK from the FRONT only, and then framed Oswald in the REAR. What a lovely plan--if your assassination team is comprised of nothing but morons, that is. Or comprised of weirdos who just wanted to keep the "Let's Plant Evidence" division of their organization super-busy after the assassination.

* And although Lifton was careful to not specifically say that John Connally, too, was hit by no bullets fired from the rear (David's apparently going to save the "Connally bombshell" evidence for his future book release, "Final Charade"), it's pretty clear that Lifton also believes that no shots from behind struck Connally either -- otherwise, Lifton would have no reason to say that he thinks that Connally's injuries resulted in some kind of a "cover-up" too.

So, why sugar-coat the bullshit that David Lifton has forced upon us -- he thinks NO SHOTS FROM THE REAR struck Kennedy or Connally. And that, of course, is a silly and ludicrous position to take. And you'd think that Mr. Lifton would be more than a little embarrassed to present such claptrap in public. But, evidently he's not embarrassed in the slightest. Go figure.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

David L.,

You can stop calling me Vince any time now. Mr. Bugliosi has no control over what I write--and never has. Vince, AFAIK, still doesn't even own a computer, and the only contact I have ever had with Vince is via his secretary through e-mails passed back and forth [click here]. But I'm pleased to know you think I'm Vince. No greater compliment could be bestowed upon me. Thank you.

As for your last post of evidence-mangling and distortion of the known facts surrounding JFK's murder, I think one word can sum that up nicely (and excuse me for repeating myself):

Hogwash!

And if someone thinks that David Lifton, in his last two posts, HASN'T totally distorted and misrepresented and misinterpreted the evidence in the JFK case, they'd better think again. Because anyone who has the nerve to claim that John Kennedy and John Connally were struck by ZERO bullets fired from behind the limousine doesn't even deserve a place at the "Assassination Research" table. He should be UNDER the table. And I don't care whether his book won 6 Pulitzers and a Grammy and the Best Picture Oscar for 1980 -- his theories are still provably BUNK. Period.


DAVID LIFTON, WHO FOR SOME REASON SEEMS TO THINK THAT I AM VINCENT BUGLIOSI, SAID:

Your 1500 page [sic] book, Vince, is a monument to your obstinacy, your ego, and, unfortunately, your gullibility; because you have accepted falsified evidence as real. Because of that, you took seriously the false version of history that was created on 11/22/63, by Kennedy's murderers, to hide the truth about how he died; falsified evidence which then became legal foundation for concluding that Lee Oswald was Kennedy's assassin.

You swallowed all that hook, line and sinker.

Stop ignoring the evidence, Vince.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Stop embarrassing yourself, Mr. Lifton. Please. (And, btw, Vincent's book is 2800+ pages, including the CD-ROM material.) :)

You act as if Vince Bugliosi and myself (if you can stop thinking that I am Vince) are the only two people on the planet who think Oswald did it, or are the only people who think your theory is bunk.

Nonsense.

What about the HSCA?
What about the Rockefeller Commission?

Those committees concluded that OSWALD KILLED KENNEDY too. Not to mention the Warren Commission, which started it all. And not to mention most of the members of the Dallas Police Department too. Let me guess--Will Fritz and Jim Leavelle and Gerald Hill are all liars too. Right, David?

So, you think the HSCA (with dozens of people on its staff) swallowed a false theory about Oswald's guilt "hook, line, and sinker", too? Is that it? The HSCA was also gullible enough to NOT believe that JFK's body was stolen and then altered?

I asked this question previously, and it deserves a replay here, I think:

I wonder what the Vegas odds would be of Oswald not killing Kennedy, and yet having BOTH official investigative organizations [Warren Commission and HSCA] concluding that he did?

Any idea?


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

Remember what they taught you in law school, Vince [sic], about the importance of the "earliest recorded recollection"?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Well, then, let's listen to the earliest POSSIBLE statement by Dr. Robert R. Shaw concerning Governor Connally's wounds--this video below is from Shaw's 11/22/63 news conference at Parkland, right after Shaw operated on John Connally. Let's see David S. Lifton wiggle out of this 1963 statement, with DSL favoring some 1967 Shaw interview instead:


video


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

I do not understand how today, people can return to these accounts and reasonably claim that this or that doctor did not see what he said he did.

The notion that this is what the President's head looked like, at Bethesda, is--as far as I'm concerned--not just unlikely. It's simply absurd.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

And yet we have THREE different forms of photographic proof that indicate the Parkland doctors were wrong --

1.) The autopsy photographs.
2.) The autopsy X-rays.
3.) The Zapruder Film.

Am I really supposed to believe that ALL of the above items are fakes, David, including Mr. Zapruder's home movie? And Mr. Zapruder's movie and camera, keep in mind, are items that were never out of Mr. Zapruder's sight from the time he filmed the assassination to the time the film was developed and processed. So is Abe Z. a part of a plot too? He'd almost HAVE to be in order to even BEGIN to believe that his film is a fake.

Mr. Lifton,

Can you tell us what credentials you possess in photo analysis and photo authentication that would make you determine that the two pictures below are fakes and frauds (even though the HSCA determined the exact opposite on Page 41 of HSCA Volume 7)?:





Also:

Mr. Lifton, can I get you to agree that if even one of the above photographic items is NOT a fake and a fraud [including the Zapruder Film], then President Kennedy definitely did NOT have a great-big hole in the back (occipital) area of his head?

Thank you.


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

David Von Pein,

You are so arrogant, and so utterly ill informed.

[...]

I played a role in creating this historical record, which you so glibly, arrogantly (and ignorantly) dismiss.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

What reasonable person WOULDN'T dismiss your kooky ideas?

I mean, for Pete sake, you think JFK and Connally were struck by NO SHOTS FROM BEHIND. Talk about being "arrogant". Geesh. It really takes some arrogance to put that idiotic theory on the table at a JFK Forum filled with people who have studied this case for a long time.

And you think JFK's body was spirited off of Air Force One and his wounds were ALTERED BEFORE THE AUTOPSY. (Aren't you pleased I didn't use the word you hate--"stolen"?) Here again--it's a dumb theory. Simple as that. Not to mention--impossible.

I don't give a damn how long you've been researching this case. And I don't care how many Bethesda and Parkland witnesses you have talked to. The above two theories I just mentioned (which you fully endorse and think are the Gospel truth in this case) are, simply put, crazy theories. And they are just plain wrong. And all reasonable people who have studied the JFK case know it.

So, to toss your words to me back in your face, Mr. Lifton, you can stick your stupid theories "where the sun don't shine". Because that's where they belong.

---------------------

"David Lifton's 15-year-long "body alteration" odyssey makes for a heavy and impressive-looking publication, but the theory within the pages [of his book] falls way short in the "Proof That It Really Happened" department, and (above all) it falls monumentally short in the "Common Sense" department as well. [Lifton's] book ["Best Evidence"] is a conspiracist's attempt to literally rewrite the history of John F. Kennedy's tragic death by taking the most important piece of physical evidence in the entire case -- President Kennedy's own body -- and postulating a conspiratorial cover-up scenario so full of implausibilities, complexities, roadblocks, and complications that even with God's own help from the heavens above, the plot theorized here would have still been an iffy proposition--at best. In short, anybody who would accept as true the nonsensical theory of JFK's body being stolen off of Air Force One by evil plotters should check themselves into the nearest insane asylum and seek immediate treatment for 'Conspiracy Theory Overdose'." -- David Von Pein; January/March 2006

---------------------

"One theory that perhaps "takes the cake" is set forth by conspiracy author David Lifton in his book "Best Evidence". .... Out of his 747 pages, [Lifton] unbelievably devotes no more than 6 or 7 full pages, if that, to Oswald. .... One could safely say that David Lifton took folly to an unprecedented level. And considering the monumental foolishness of his colleagues in the conspiracy community, that's saying something."
-- Vincent Bugliosi; Pages 1057, 1058, and 1066 of "Reclaiming History"


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

The photographs of those who saw the President’s head in Dallas completely contradict the color photograph you are displaying. Those doctors (and nurses) saw the back of the head and they said—in their reports, testimony, and when I interviewed them—that there was an avulsive wound at the back of the head.

The photograph you are using is also contradicted by the clear language of the Bethesda autopsy report, a report written by Dr. James Humes, the Director of the lab, and co-signed by Boswell and Finck. That report states that the large wound extended into the occipital area. But that does not appear in the color photograph you have posted. Do you really believe those three doctors—Humes, Finck and Boswell—were so incompetent that they could not properly describe where a large hole in the head was located—as well as where it was not?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I discuss the autopsy report's "somewhat into the occipital" language in the multi-part "BOH" [Back Of Head] series posted at my website HERE. In those "BOH" discussions, I am battling mostly just one person--Mr. John A. Canal--who, ironically, believes that Lee Oswald fired all the shots, but Canal believes that Humes deliberately "under-reported" the amount of damage done to JFK's head.


JAMES GORDON SAID:

It is not irrational if someone, who studies the evidence and discovers that is where the evidence leads, to accept that something underhand[ed] must have taken place.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

But, James, in David Lifton's body-alteration theory, we are expected to accept as true something that is so outlandish and unlikely (and, per witnesses like Dave Powers, so physically impossible even), that I do not think it's unreasonable to reject that theory out of hand. Just as it's not unreasonable to reject similar "impossible" theories out of hand -- e.g., Brian David Andersen's theory of JFK not being killed at all (he thinks that JFK himself activated a "pyrotechnics device" that was attached to his head, which made it falsely seem like his head was exploding)....and the "Jackie Did It" theory which has recently been postulated by some nutty dame at a JFK newsgroup.

Those are theories that are not "reasonable" theories. And I put Mr. Lifton's body-alteration theory in that same category.

Which means that the discrepancies in the testimony between the Parkland and Bethesda witnesses MUST have an alternate explanation to resolve them--other than the most extreme explanation of "body alteration" and "casket switching", etc.

What all of those alternative explanations are, I'll admit, I cannot say. But I truly think that the "multiple body arrivals" at Bethesda can be explained -- those witnesses, such as Dennis David, merely saw OTHER (non-JFK) caskets entering the Bethesda morgue. Does David Lifton have knowledge of there being absolutely NO other casket arrivals at Bethesda on the night of November 22 OTHER than JFK's casket? If so, what is that proof?

The only explanation that makes any sense at all to me regarding the multiple casket entries is that those other caskets just simply had other (non-JFK) bodies in them.

And I'd also have to ask -- If the plotters KNEW that Kennedy's body had been taken out of an expensive ornamental casket in Dallas (and they surely knew that, right?), then why on Earth would they have placed JFK in some el-cheapo pinkish-gray "shipping" casket for the entry at Bethesda? Didn't the plotters think anybody would notice the (huge) difference in casket types? Or didn't they think anybody would care--or report the differences?

The same logical question must also be asked about the body wrappings -- Why would anyone place JFK's body into a zipped body bag, when they knew he had been wrapped only in sheets when they swiped the body off of Air Force One in Dallas?

Did ANY of the body-alteration team members have a working brain? (Just wondering, David, that's all. But I know I'm not supposed to ask such "What Were They Thinking?" type of questions. We're supposed to just accept Paul O'Connor's four-tiered conspiratorial tale without asking the two questions I just asked.)

And here's a third one -- How could the doctors (on November 25th) have performed a Supplementary Brain Exam (as revealed in the autopsy report in an Appendix in the Warren Report) if there really was "NO BRAIN" in JFK's cranium to be examined on the night of the autopsy, as reported by Paul K. O'Connor?


JAMES GORDON SAID:

When it became clear to me that the Single Bullet Theory was not possible, then it was clear that the throat wound had to be an entrance wound. As you are so fond of informing me, and others, “O.k. if the throat wound is an entrance wound – where is the bullet?” The only answer to that is that it was removed.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

You do realize, don't you James, that you've just DOUBLED the "bullet" problem for yourself, right?

Because if the throat-wound bullet entered and never exited (and was "removed") as you say, then you've got to say the same thing about the back-wound bullet too. Remember, JFK was struck in the upper back by a bullet too.

So now you've got TWO bullets going into JFK's soft flesh--striking no bone to speak of (save the trachea damage, which, even per Dr. [Cyril] Wecht, wasn't enough to cause the bullet to deflect from its original trajectory)--with NEITHER of those bullets exiting the body....and then both bullets just VANISH.

And THAT type of theory is MORE logical and reasonable than is the SBT, James? Really? I beg to differ.

This also gives me a great excuse to re-post one of the best and humorous quotes ever written about the silly "2 Bullets Entered And Neither Exited" theory that conspiracy theorists are so fond of:

"The assassins choose bullets that inflict non-lethal, 1-inch-deep wounds? Instead of feeding JFK to lions, they decided to nibble him to death by ducks?"
-- Bud (at the alt.conspiracy.jfk newsgroup); April 1, 2006




DAVID LIFTON SAID:

I'm starting to think that I really was wrong in assuming Bugliosi was writing (or vetting) your text, because what passes for "reasoning" is so sophomoric it is truly an embarrassment.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Why on Earth anyone would be silly enough to think that Mr. Bugliosi writes or "vets" my Internet posts is anyone's guess. But it's a really stupid suggestion, David. Vince doesn't have the slightest idea what I'm writing on the Internet. And I haven't a clue as to why you would think he does (or ever has). ~big shrug~

Maybe you should ask Pat Lambert. After all, she's another person you were 100% wrong about when it comes to the topics of "writing for other people" and "ghostwriting" and "Vincent Bugliosi".

For those who aren't aware of this hilarious story -- David Lifton, on May 24, 2007, decided to go on Len Osanic's Black Op (Conspiracies 'R Us) Radio show and claim that "False Witness" author Patricia Lambert had practically written all (or certainly most) of Vincent Bugliosi's 90-page chapter about the Jim Garrison case and Oliver Stone's movie.

After learning about Lifton's crackpot "ghostwriting" charges, Pat Lambert made a statement in early July 2007, in which she said she had not written a single sentence (or word) of Mr. Bugliosi's book. AFAIK, however, Mr. Lifton has never offered up a public apology to Ms. Lambert.

What was that you were preaching to me in your last post, Mr. Lifton -- about "ethics"? (Geesh.)





Now, let's see what other comic antics "Mr. Body Alteration" has in store for Davey tonight.....


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

Your writing indicates you really do not function logically.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Says the guy who thinks it's MORE logical to think that President Kennedy was shot by NO BULLETS FROM BEHIND and also believes JFK's body was pilfered RIGHT OFF OF AIR FORCE ONE by unknown plotters and the BODY ALTERED.



Please continue, Mr. Alteration.....


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

There is nothing physically impossible about taking the President's body out of the casket and moving it elsewhere on the plane, especially if the order to do so comes from "higher authority." What you seem to be avoiding is the fact that the body was in the coffin when the coffin was placed aboard Air Force One (at 2:18 CST) but could not possibly have been in the coffin when AF-1 landed (at 6 PM) because the body arrived at Bethesda in a body bag, inside a shipping casket, (at 6:35 PM) about 20 minutes prior to the Dallas casket, which arrived in the naval ambulance at 6:55 PM.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Oh, my weak bladder!!

And the funniest part about all this is -- David L. really believes it!


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

Instead of sputtering and filling the Internet with insults, why not address the evidence?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Says the man who thinks Kennedy WASN'T SHOT FROM BEHIND AT ALL.

Yeah, David S. Lifton really knows how to "address the evidence" in the JFK case alright.

(I had no idea Mr. Lifton was a drinking man. But after reading this post of his--including the Cronkite/"Hotstuff"/"Von Pain" simulation, I have no choice but to think that his cupboard is brim full with empty Jack Daniels bottles. Gee, and I thought I had a lot of free time to write stuff on the Internet. Since joining Duncan MacRae's forum, Lifton's got everybody beat in the "free time" category, it would seem.)


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

So you see, DVP, this is the sort of thing you should be looking for, and when you find it, I do hope you will post it on your YouTube site. And you will go down in history, as having shown that all of the data about multiple coffins is just one big misunderstanding...you know, like the Lusitania.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Was your Walter Cronkite/Comedy Central routine supposed to offer some kind of PROOF that no other casket entries were made at Bethesda on the night of November 22, 1963, David? If so, I must have missed that "proof".

And didn't you say the other day (and perhaps even in your book, "Best Evidence") that you think perhaps a THIRD casket entry occurred at Bethesda that night? Care to go for four?

What was in the third (and fourth?) casket, David? Kennedy's brain? Luncheon snacks for Humes and Company? What?

Let's now again bask in the Pot/Kettle nature of this gem penned previously by one David S. Lifton on the west coast:

"Your writing indicates you really do not function logically."
-- D. Lifton; May 9, 2013

Now, after having read the above comment, can anyone even begin to imagine the gall and monster-sized gonads it would take for someone who claims that President Kennedy was not shot by ANY BULLETS FROM BEHIND to make the statement I just quoted above?

Absolutely mind-boggling.

BTW -- Does anybody wonder how David Lifton reconciles the Main Street curb damage and James Tague's slight cheek injury within a theory that has ALL of the shots coming from the FRONT of the President's car? (Not to mention the limo damage done to the windshield and the chrome strip.)

But, maybe Lifton can now backpedal a little bit and claim that a shot WAS fired from the rear, and that this "missed" shot hit Tague and the Main Street curb.

Or, maybe DSL thinks that the "real killers" on the Knoll were really wanting to kill James T. Tague down by the Underpass. I like that theory myself. Maybe DSL can postulate that one sometime. Because you gotta wonder how any Grassy Knoll shooters could be such lousy shots as to hit Tague by the Underpass when they were supposedly aiming at Kennedy in the middle of Elm Street.

No worries, though -- David S. Lifton must certainly have a very good (and ultra-logical) theory to account for the Tague wounding, within his current theory of "JFK & Connally Suffered No Injuries From Any Rear Gunmen".

Anyway, I think it's quite obvious by this time that Mr. Lifton belongs in the "Pot/Kettle" Hall-of-Fame (based on just the last quote I cited above--all by itself) -- right next to James DiEugenio, also of Los Angeles. How fitting.


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

Best Evidence makes the valid case that President Kennedy's body was covertly intercepted prior to autopsy, and the wounds altered.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Even though Mr. Lifton knows that a whole lot of people have said that such "covert interception" of President Kennedy's body was absolutely impossible.

1.) The body could not possibly have been "intercepted" (aka: stolen) off of Air Force One while at Love Field. There were too many people surrounding the casket at all times for such a pilfering of the body to have been successfully accomplished.

But David Lifton totally ignores this pivotal fact and, instead, tries to shoehorn this very important and vital event (the physical stealing of the President's body) into a timeline that even he (Mr. Lifton) knows full well is too tight for even his own comfort. That's probably why David has changed his view on this critical timing factor over the years [as demonstrated by the quote below] ---

"About two years after 'Best Evidence' was published, I in fact realized there was a much more significant moment in time for getting the body out of the coffin, and that was the brief period when the coffin was already aboard the plane, and the entire Kennedy party was down on the tarmac. And today, that is when I think that event actually occurred. How they got the body off the plane is another matter." -- David S. Lifton; November 15, 1997


2.) There was simply not enough time for the alleged body alterations to have been performed on the President between the time JFK's body was loaded aboard AF1 and the time the body arrived at Bethesda at approximately 7:35 PM EST on November 22nd. Quoting Dr. Humes: "The President's body was received at 25 minutes before 8." [2 H 349]

And I don't think that David Lifton has added yet another hilarious element to his body-swiping theory as of this date--that being: a new theory that has JFK's body being altered WHILE IN FLIGHT, aboard some "covert" airplane or rocket ship that transported the body of the President and a team of body-altering surgeons from Dallas to Washington. But, maybe that's a theory that DSL should consider, because otherwise he's got no choice but to pretend that the covert body alterations were performed with lightning-like speed between the time the body arrived back in Washington (regardless of WHAT aircraft it might have been transported in) and the time when Dr. Humes and company opened up the casket at Bethesda at about 7:35 PM EST.

That would have given the covert body alterers approximately 90 minutes to alter all of the wounds AND transport the President's body to Bethesda. And, let's face it, the alleged body-altering surgeons didn't just cross their arms and blink their eyes like Barbara Eden in order to alter those wounds or to transport the President's body the hundreds of miles it must have travelled from Dallas, Texas, to Washington, D.C., on November 22, 1963.

Ninety minutes (at most) to perform the kind of surgery David Lifton advocates AND to get the altered body from Walter Reed (or wherever DSL thinks the alterations took place) to Bethesda. And it's really even less time than that, because the body had to go from SOME airport or Air Force base in the Washington area TO Walter Reed (or wherever) FIRST. So there's more time lost. Unless, as I said, the alterations were performed while in transit. And that's just flat-out silly. Isn't it, David L.?

And if I understand Mr. Lifton's timeline correctly, there's even far LESS time for any covert body-altering surgery to have been performed on JFK, because Lifton has the "shipping" casket (with JFK's altered body inside of it) arriving at the Bethesda morgue at about 6:35 PM EST (correct me if I'm wrong about this timing, DSL). Which makes the body-altering scenario even more laughable and impossible than it already is. This would give the body-altering doctors virtually no time at all to perform any surgery on the President, unless the plotters somehow were able to fly JFK back to Washington from Dallas at supersonic speed (or perhaps with the help of George Reeves or Christopher Reeve).

This timing problem is undoubtedly why Douglas P. Horne decided to "alter" David Lifton's original "body altering" theory, with Horne realizing that there was simply no way in Hades that all of this cloak-and-dagger hocus-pocus could have been accomplished in the amount of time that was available. So, Horne added a new (and equally as laughable) wrinkle to this whole silly farce by contending that Dr. Humes himself performed the alterations to President Kennedy's body between about 6:35 PM and 7:35 PM EST.


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

The Internet is read by people all over the world, and that's the only reason I'm spending time responding to your nonsense. Never did I say--ever--that the President's body was "altered while in flight." That is a total fiction. I never said that, nor do I believe it.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

David Lifton should learn how to read. Never once did I say that David Lifton believes that JFK's body was altered while in flight. Here's what I said (with emphasis now added for Lifton, who apparently cannot read at all):

"And I don't think that David Lifton has added yet another hilarious element to his body-swiping theory as of this date--that being: a new theory that has JFK's body being altered WHILE IN FLIGHT, aboard some "covert" airplane or rocket ship that transported the body of the President and a team of body-altering surgeons from Dallas to Washington. But, maybe that's a theory that DSL should consider, because otherwise he's got no choice but to pretend that the covert body alterations were performed with lightning-like speed between the time the body arrived back in Washington (regardless of WHAT aircraft it might have been transported in) and the time when Dr. Humes and company opened up the casket at Bethesda at about 7:35 PM EST." -- DVP

And, in fact, the very fact that David Lifton definitely does NOT believe that JFK's body was altered on the airplane (as I always knew he did NOT believe) is a big reason to know that his body alteration theory is nonsense from simply the TIME factor alone. Which is why I humorously suggested that DSL probably SHOULD add the "Altered In Flight" element to his crackpot theory--because without it, there's simply no time for the alterations to happen, especially via DSL's 6:35 PM casket entry.

And Lifton doesn't think Humes and Boswell altered the wounds, which means they must have been altered between 6:00 PM and 6:35 PM. And when allowing travel time from an airport in Washington to Bethesda, then how much actual "body altering" time was available to the covert surgeons on 11/22/63? Tell us, David, WHEN was the altering of the President's body done via your super-tight (and impossible) timeline? When? And where? In the hearse on the way to Bethesda perhaps?

You don't want to answer those perfectly logical and reasonable "timeline" questions--mainly because you cannot answer them in a reasonable manner. So you'll just ignore the impossibly tight timeline during which you say all of this stuff was done to President Kennedy's body.

Any casket that arrived at Bethesda Naval Hospital at 6:35 PM EST quite obviously DID NOT and COULD NOT have contained the body of John F. Kennedy. Any such 6:35 casket entry must have been associated with some other case entirely. Especially if it involved a plain "shipping casket".

Anyone with any common sense at all would be able to figure this out. But David Lifton has, instead, decided to believe in the most ridiculous scenario imaginable--one that has JFK's body being deliberately placed by conspirators into a casket that doesn't even begin to resemble the casket that the plotters took JFK out of. This gives new meaning to the term "Brain Dead JFK Conspirators". And yet an obviously intelligent man named David S. Lifton swallows this crap whole. Remarkable.


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

I don't have the time to follow you around and do "clean-up" after you post your various false statements about what I believe, or have written.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

There's nothing you need to "clean up" at all. I didn't misstate a single one of your silly beliefs, David. And, in fact, I hit the "6:35 PM" timing smack on the nose in my previous post, even though I was relying only on memory for that bit of info, and even inviting you to correct me if I was wrong. Here's exactly what I said:

"Lifton has the "shipping" casket (with JFK's altered body inside of it) arriving at the Bethesda morgue at about 6:35 PM EST (correct me if I'm wrong about this timing, DSL). Which makes the body-altering scenario even more laughable and impossible than it already is." -- DVP

So stop whining. Your "clean up" services aren't required at all. You just need to learn to read. For Pete sake, you even QUOTED me directly, and yet you still got it wrong.


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

The reason I have so little respect for what you do is your blatant misstatements of my own work...


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Again, I made no misstatements at all that I can see. I never said you think the body was altered in the air. Read my quote again. Maybe the following operative words will begin to sink in (as you hunt for a better pair of reading glasses):

"I don't think that David Lifton has added yet another hilarious element to his body-swiping theory as of this date--that being: a new theory that has JFK's body being altered WHILE IN FLIGHT...but, maybe that's a theory that DSL should consider."


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

...and your rotten sneering attitude towards the evidence which clearly indicates that President Kennedy's body was altered prior to autopsy...


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

What reasonable and sensible person WOULDN'T sneer at such an insane theory? Even 99% of your fellow conspiracy theorists have tossed your foolish theories aside (including your equally silly "No Shots Hit Any Victims From The Rear" claptrap too, which is possibly even MORE ludicrous than your body alteration fairy tale).


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

...combined with the incredible hypocrisy you show by claiming you have some sort of great respect for the late President--which you clearly do not. Because if you did, you would care about who was responsible for his death.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

You've got a lot of gall to say that. I respect President Kennedy very much, and I always have. And I do care about finding out who killed him. And the evidence is screaming out the answer to anyone who will listen -- President Kennedy was murdered by your favorite "patsy", Lee Harvey Oswald -- and no one else.

So you can take that remark about my not having any "respect" for JFK and stuff it squarely up your rear quarters, because in my opinion, that particular comment was totally uncalled for (even for this type of JFK forum).


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

Do you have a problem when it comes to telling the truth? Is misrepresenting what an author says in his book indigenous to your DNA? If not, then what is the problem?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

See my previous response. I misrepresented nothing. It's not my fault you can't read. (Is it?)


PAUL MAY SAID:

DVP has given an excellent rebuttal to DSL's theory on body alteration. Simple, direct, specific in detail. There is so much evidence contrary to this theory that reasonable credible individuals can only shake their heads.

I believe most people who have followed this case, whether CT or LN, have or had a high regard for JFK. This is what makes the issue of his death so emotional. For DSL to accuse DVP of having no respect for JFK is insulting. While I believe DSL has promoted a theory right out of a Hollywood Sci Fi movie, I have no doubt he too respects JFK.


HANK SIENZANT SAID:

David [Lifton], your book makes it clear you think all the shooters were in front of the President. And therefore, in front of the Governor as well. It therefore follows from your own theory that the Governor's wounds MUST have been altered as well.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

And in addition to that hunk of nonsense about the Governor's wounds being altered (which we all know didn't happen, of course, since John B. Connally lived to tell his story to the American people after the shooting), it also means that somehow the conspirators who shot Connally only from the front got John Connally HIMSELF to lie about his wounds and what he felt when he was hit by the bullet.

Connally ALWAYS said that the bullet which hit him felt like a "balled-up fist" striking him a sharp blow IN THE BACK. He never wavered from that story his entire life.

So, apparently David Lifton must believe that either Governor Connally was part of the conspiracy and cover-up too, or that Connally was somehow innocently mistaken when he said that he was hit in the back, which would mean that the "balled-up fist" feeling that Connally felt in his back was really the EXIT point for a bullet that must have entered his chest and came out his upper back.

Anybody buying that one?

In short, David Lifton's theories fail miserably from EVERY single angle they are approached from. And to think that this guy still has supporters for this type of crackpottery. Geesh.


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

The casket that arrived at 6:35 PM obviously contained the body of John F. Kennedy,


JAMES GORDON SAID:

David [Lifton],

Is such a timing realistic?

Doing a search on the internet, I see that the straight-line distance between [Andrews Air Force Base and Bethesda Naval Hospital] is 18 miles as the crow flies. However, traveling by car is 28 miles.

[William] Manchester states that the plane arrived at 6:05. From that time has to be added the time to off load and enter the cars and ambulance.

At best if you add 5 minutes, which is probably too short, to the change over, you then have 28 miles to drive in 25 minutes.

Does that seem realistic to you?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

And let's also remember, too, that according to David Lifton's theory, it's an ALREADY ALTERED BODY of John Kennedy that arrived at Bethesda at 6:35 PM EST.

Lifton doesn't think the "alterations" to JFK's body were performed at Bethesda, which means (unless Lifton has decided to crawl into bed with Doug Horne regarding WHERE the alleged body alterations were done) that the body had to be secretly removed from Air Force One by a team of conspirators at Andrews AFB (without a single person noticing this activity on the other side of the aircraft), and then the body had to travel to Walter Reed (or wherever) for the lickety-split wound alterations, and then after placing JFK into a casket that looks nothing like the expensive ornamental casket the plotters earlier removed JFK's body from (and also after putting JFK into a body bag, for some idiotic reason that only the bumbling plotters could possibly explain), they travel the XX miles to Bethesda. (How far is it from Walter Reed to Bethesda? I'm not sure and I really don't care, but David Lifton sure should.)**

And all of the above is accomplished, per David Lifton (unless he's changed his theory in the last few years), in roughly 20 to 25 minutes.

Can anybody say -- No way, Jose?!


** EDIT -- Distances (per Vincent Bugliosi's book, "Reclaiming History", page 1063)---

Andrews Air Force Base to Walter Reed Hospital -- 13 miles (by air).

Walter Reed Hospital to Bethesda Naval Hospital -- 5 miles.


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

The casket that arrived at 6:35 PM obviously contained the body of John F. Kennedy.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Impossible.

"Lifton's scenario couldn't possibly be more insane." -- Vincent T. Bugliosi; Page 1061 of "Reclaiming History"

Vince is right (as usual).


JAMES GORDON SAID:

Unlike some, I am not adverse to David's body alteration scenario. However, I did not find his argument about the helicopter very persuasive. I always felt it was never fully tied down.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Helicopter talk can be found in the CBS-TV coverage. No big secrets here. The helicopter that departed just before LBJ's chopper was taking members of the Kennedy party to the White House.

David Lifton, of course, thinks there was another chopper that must have departed a little earlier which contained the pilfered body of John Kennedy (see addendum below). But when Lifton's fantasy is discarded (as it must be by all sensible reasoned-thinking individuals), any and all helicopters that were standing by at Andrews AFB on 11/22 were no doubt there for reasons other than to swipe the President and whisk him to Walter Reed.


ADDENDUM:

"Through [Lifton's] compulsive effort, he comes up with a speck of evidence here and a speck there to support his earth-is-flat theory. For instance, he tells us, and I assume he's being truthful, that if one listens to the tape of CBS anchorman Harry Reasoner announcing the arrival of Air Force One at Andrews, "it [is] difficult to hear [Reasoner] because, thundering in the background could be heard the turning rotor of a helicopter," the one, Lifton assures his reader, that took the president's body to Walter Reed hospital, where his phantom conspiracy surgeons performed the alterations. Assassination researcher Howard Platzman describes this tendency of the conspiracy theorists to stitch together bits and scraps of information to support their grand conclusions "hyperperspicacity. Seeing very clearly what isn't there or what is innocently there. This special kind of seeing is what enabled me, at age 19, to discover 83 pieces of evidence in Beatles' music and paraphernalia pointing inescapably to the conclusion that Paul [McCartney] was dead."" -- Page 1063 of Vince Bugliosi's "Reclaiming History"


I'm not quite sure if Mr. Bugliosi has the correct CBS reporter when he quotes from David Lifton's book above, because Harry Reasoner's voice is never drowned out by anything during the CBS coverage of JFK's arrival at Andrews Air Force Base.

Reasoner hands off the coverage to CBS correspondent Charles Von Fremd, who was reporting live from Andrews. The loud noise of the jet engines on Air Force One do drown out Von Fremd's coverage to some degree for a short time, but I can't hear any helicopter rotors in the background. And even if there are the sounds of a helicopter in the background....so what? Any helicopter sounds can just as easily be explained by a helicopter LANDING at Andrews, instead of one TAKING OFF. The sound of the chopper's rotors would be about the same.

Just try to find any helicopter noise at all in the CBS videos. I hear none. The only thing that comes close to "helicopter noise" at the operative time, IMO, occurs right after Reasoner hands off the coverage to Von Fremd at Andrews....but that's at a point when Air Force One is still taxiing. The Boeing 707 hasn't even come to a stop yet! Did the conspirators throw JFK's body into a waiting helicopter from the moving jetliner perhaps? Maybe a new theory has been born. :-)


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

Here is what James Sibert told me in 1990, fifteen years before the interview you quoted: “Dave, I could swear on a stack of bibles that the doctor said there was surgery.” That’s just a fact. That’s what he said in 1990.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

So what? Big deal.

Yes, Humes used the word "surgery". We know that. Nobody's claiming Sibert and O'Neill lied in their initial report when they said that Humes said "apparent surgery of the head area". But the key is: WHY did Humes use that word? And James W. Sibert answered that "Why?" question for Vincent Bugliosi in 1999 (see below excerpt from Vince's book).

Plus -- Since we know that the word "surgery" did come out of James Humes' mouth at the autopsy on the night of 11/22/63, that very fact and that fact alone drives a stake through the heart of Doug Horne's "alternate" body alteration theory. Horne thinks it was HUMES HIMSELF who performed the "surgery of the head area" on President Kennedy's body. And yet within seconds of the body being removed from the casket at Bethesda, Humes (the alleged body-alterer himself) blurts out the word "surgery" for everybody to hear in the autopsy room. Brilliant, huh?

So I guess Horne must think Humes WANTED the covert "surgery" to be discovered and PUT ON RECORD in the Sibert/O'Neill report. Either that, or Horne must think Dr. Humes was one really stupid SOB.


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

And in my 1990 conversation, he [Sibert] said: "that’s haunted me for years, this surgery of the head."


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Looks like he got unhaunted just nine years later when he told Vincent Bugliosi on September 22, 1999, the things we find printed on page 1060 of Bugliosi's book "Reclaiming History" (excerpted below). And Sibert said the exact same thing in this audio interview on June 30, 2005 (9 minutes into the interview). And also please take note of Sibert's description of the body wrappings in the book excerpt below -- "wrapped in two sheets":


CLICK TO ENLARGE:



================================


SWITCHING GEARS....


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

Oh pleez...I'm really sick and tired of seeing Dale Myers quoted "in defense of" Vincent Bugliosi. Dale Myers was a paid ghost writer for Bugliosi's book "Reclaiming History." Hundreds and hundreds of pages were written/rewritten by Myers.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I have a very strong feeling that Mr. David S. Lifton doesn't know what the hell he's babbling about here.

Vincent Bugliosi gave full credit to Dale K. Myers for Dale's writing contributions in the "Acknowledgments" section of "Reclaiming History". So that eliminates Mr. Myers as a "ghostwriter" right there, because ghostwriters are NOT ACKNOWLEDGED AT ALL in the book that they are helping to "ghostwrite".

And why on Earth David Lifton has it etched in his mind that Dale Myers wrote (or rewrote) "hundreds and hundreds of pages" of "Reclaiming History" (or even whole chapters, as Lifton has practically alluded to in the past as well) is a real mystery to me.

Myers HELPED Bugliosi write PORTIONS of "Reclaiming History" (just as the late Fred Haines did), and Vince has acknowledged that fact IN PRINT right inside the book itself, but I'm at a loss to comprehend just exactly why Lifton believes that Myers wrote practically all of Chapter 1 ("Four Days In November").

Here is exactly what Vincent Bugliosi says on this matter, on Page 1515 of "Reclaiming History":

"Dale [Myers] helped me in the writing of several sections of Book One [i.e., the first two-thirds of "Reclaiming History"], most notably on acoustics, 'Four Days in November' [Chapter 1 of the book] (particularly in the Oswald interrogations), and all matters dealing with still photography. I am deeply grateful to Dale for lending his time, energy, and considerable expertise to this literary project."
-- Vincent Bugliosi


And we can also know that Lifton is full of crap about his alleged "ghostwriting" allegation by taking another look at the following comment made by Bugliosi's personal secretary, Rosemary Newton:

"In response to David Lifton's outrageous, malicious and contemptible lie regarding Vincent Bugliosi's book...where he claims ghost writers wrote this great book (which will be read by generations to come, long after Mr. Lifton and the rest of us are gone, including all the die-hard conspiracy theorists)...I say, unequivocally, that NO section of Mr. Bugliosi's book was ghostwritten."
-- Rosemary Newton; July 5, 2007


Another reason, of course, to seriously doubt Lifton's claims about Dale Myers is to re-examine the very same allegation that Lifton made against author Patricia Lambert [which I alluded to earlier in this blog post]. In 2007, Lifton came right out and made the bold and ludicrous claim that Pat Lambert had written virtually ALL of the "Jim Garrison/Oliver Stone" chapter in "Reclaiming History".

Well, within a few weeks of Lifton's allegation, Ms. Lambert put that issue to rest for all time (but I suppose Lifton thinks Lambert was lying her ass off when she said this):

"For the record: I did not write one single word of Vince Bugliosi's book, not even a footnote. I never saw Vince Bugliosi's manuscript. I never saw any portion of Vince Bugliosi's manuscript. I didn't even get a peek at the galleys. No comma, colon, semi-colon, parenthesis, hyphen, apostrophe or period is my doing, to say nothing of sentences, paragraphs and a whole chapter. .... I have indeed been in touch with Bugliosi; we have talked on the telephone and I provided him with some documents. That is the full extent of my involvement in his book. I cannot imagine what prompted Lifton to make such a stunningly false allegation about me. But false it is. I am not a ghostwriter. I have never been a ghostwriter. I have no intention of being a ghostwriter. Since I know unequivocally that Lifton is wrong about the role he assigned to me, I see no reason to believe he is correct about the other unidentified writers on whom he has bestowed the credit for having written Vince Bugliosi's book. David Lifton owes me an apology. David Lifton owes Vince Bugliosi an apology." -- Patricia Lambert; July 2, 2007


Therefore, since we KNOW beyond all doubt that David Lifton was 100% dead wrong about his ghostwriting allegations that he levelled against Pat Lambert, why in the world would anyone put any stock or faith in ANYTHING ELSE this man named Lifton has to say about the SAME TOPIC of "Reclaiming History" being ghostwritten by various individuals? That's nutty.


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

There are two signed contracts (at least) between Myers and Bugliosi and/or his publisher. The first contract was when Myers first hired onto the project. The second contract (or contracts) occurred when Myers and Bugliosi found they couldn't get along with one another ("creative differences" is the Hollywood term) and so a legal "divorce" had to be arranged.

Both contracts included provisions that Dale Myers could not talk about the role he played--in other words, complete "confidentiality" was a part of the legal arrangement--both in the case of the original "marriage" and then the "divorce."

[...]

Again, I repeat: it's absurd to be citing Dale Myers "in defense of Bugliosi" since he (Myers) wrote such a substantial portion of both "Reclaiming History," and of [the 2008 follow-up paperback volume] "Four Days in November."


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I'll let Dale Myers speak for himself on this. Naturally, Mr. Lifton won't believe a word uttered by Mr. Myers, but I'll pass these quotes along anyway--just "for the record":

"Lifton is questioning Bugliosi's credibility? Isn't Lifton the guy that claimed at one time that snipers were firing from inside artificial trees that had been installed and removed from the grassy knoll by crane? .... Lifton's problem is not Bugliosi's book or the secret gaggle of authors who supposedly wrote the master's work for him. David Lifton's problem is himself. As long as he continues to haunt the fringes of rational thought we can expect to be entertained with more ridiculous and unfounded accusations." -- Dale K. Myers; July 5, 2007


"As to Mr. Lifton's 'ghostwriting' allegations regarding Vincent Bugliosi's book...charges and assertions without support don't mean much to me. I note that in the year since Mr. Bugliosi's secretary Rosemary Newton challenged Lifton...that Mr. Lifton failed to grab what would apparently be (according to Lifton's 'ghostwriting' claims) an easy $100 grand, and instead continues to trash-talk Mr. Bugliosi's book. Seems to me there would be an easy way to settle all of this - Why doesn't Lifton simply post the contracts for all of Mr. Bugliosi's 'ghostwriters' which he claims to be privy to? I know the idea of some kind of evidentiary support for an allegation is a novel idea to most conspiracy theorists, but come on! .... Extraordinary charges require extraordinary proof, yes? As to your question: "Do you then categorically deny that any such relationship existed between yourself and Vince Bugliosi?", perhaps you [a person named "Duke", to whom Myers was talking to here] missed Mr. Bugliosi's acknowledgements on page 1515 of 'Reclaiming History'?" -- Dale K. Myers; May 7, 2008


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

DVP: do yourself and others on this forum a favor, and "get real."


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

This is hilarious.

Just imagine, folks, David "JFK'S BODY WAS STOLEN OFF OF AIR FORCE ONE" Lifton is telling another person to "get real". The irony and pot/kettle nature of that statement is so thick you could slice it with a knife.

In reality, David, I got "real" a long time ago. In fact, it was a short time after being exposed to your book of total fantasy ("Best Evidence") in 1981 that I started to get more and more interested in the JFK assassination.

And after looking into the REAL EVIDENCE in the case (vs. Mr. Lifton's impossible-to-pull-off fantasy version of it), I soon began to realize that President Kennedy was shot only from BEHIND, and the person who shot him was most certainly a man named Lee Harvey Oswald.

But thanks for today's laugh-fest, David. I enjoyed it.


PAT SPEER SAID:

You know dang well that Lifton acknowledges he was wrong about Lambert.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

When did he ever do that, Pat? I sure don't recall ever hearing his retraction re Lambert.


PAT SPEER SAID:

Bugliosi...praises Lifton's research abilities.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Yeah, I know. And Vince was way too kind to Lifton when it comes to David's "research", too. Because anyone who believes that ALL of the shots came from the front, with ZERO shots coming from the TSBD or anywhere to the rear of JFK's limousine, doesn't deserve even the slightest bit of praise, IMO. What type of serious "research" could possibly make any JFK researcher come to such a totally absurd conclusion re the location of all of the gunshots? It's too crazy to even discuss.

The "All Shots Came From The Front" silliness is probably even more ridiculous than Lifton's "body alteration" tripe.


WILLIAM KELLY SAID:

How can you deny it, if Bugliosi ACKNOWLEDGES the contributions of his ghost writers?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

If Myers is ACKNOWLEDGED as a co-writer of the book, then he is not a "ghostwriter". Simple as that. (And I've quoted the relevant excerpt from Page 1515 of "Reclaiming History" myself, to illustrate the silly point of referring to Dale K. Myers as a "ghostwriter".)

And my guess is that David Lifton doesn't have a clue as to the number of pages that Myers HELPED Bugliosi write. Lifton is merely picking numbers out of a hat (i.e., "hundreds and hundreds"). And the same goes for Fred Haines' writing contribution, which Bugliosi says in the book was a "smaller" writing effort when compared to Myers'.


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

You surprise me, DVP. Somewhere on this forum, you have actually asked an interesting question:

"Gee" (you seemed to have wondered). . . "How can these conspiracy theorists believe that it was planned in advance to set up Oswald, as the fall guy, and yet ALSO believe JFK was shot from the front?"

Of course, the answer is to be found in Best Evidence, published in January, 1981: Specifically, it was planned, in advance, and as part of the crime, to falsify the autopsy findings.

You also might wish to reference Chapter 14, of Best Evidence, which you said you read when you were in your early 20s, and which you said got you interested in this case. How nice. But perhaps have forgotten by now. Anyway, that's what "trajectory reversal" is/was all about. The ability to shoot the President from one direction, but create the false appearance that the shots came from another.

Also, if you read my book--and specifically that same chapter 14--you will find that I certainly do not deny that the very effective appearance was created, on Dealey Plaza that day, that shots (if not "all the shots") were fired from the TSBD. Again, that's an appearance, and I never denied that. It's all spelled out, chapter and verse, in my book, right there in chapter 14.

As I make very clear--this false appearance (centered on the so-called "sniper's nest" found at the sixth floor of the TSBD)--was part of a strategic deception, employed in connection with the assassination of President Kennedy. The purpose of the strategic deception was to make it appear, both in real time, and in the evidence, that JFK's assassination was a quirk of fate, a historical accident, by attributing sole guilt to Lee Oswald, the pro-Castro Marxist who had once lived in Russia for over 2-1/2 years.

Why don't you go and read some books about strategic deception--and how such plans are often used, in war, as an integral part of any military operation. (Or do you think soldiers always march forward, in full battle dress, and then stand up and yell, before firing at the target, "You hoooo! Hey you! Look at me! I'm over here!" And then: "Bang...you're dead!")


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:



Oh, my poor, poor weak bladder!

So, David, the mentally retarded conspirators who planned President Kennedy's assassination well in advance knew from the GET-GO that they were going to have to fake all kinds of evidence (including the alteration of the "best evidence" in the case--JFK's very own body). Correct?

So, instead of merely firing the shots FROM THE PLACE WHERE THE "PATSY" WAS LOCATED, the goofball assassins of JFK decided it would be much, much better to try and frame Oswald by shooting ONLY from the Grassy Knoll (or various other FRONTAL-ONLY locations). Is that correct, DSL?

You're hilarious, David (in the comedic way).

But why do things the simple way (i.e., shoot Kennedy from the "patsy's" window and using the patsy's gun), when you could do it via an impossible-to-pull-off and ultra-complicated (not to mention, NEEDLESS and totally RECKLESS) "trajectory reversal" way by shooting the President from the exact OPPOSITE direction from where your fall guy is situated. Right, David?

And, just think, this is the kind of topsy-turvy, backward, illogical thinking we are treated to--year after year--by the JFK conspiracy theorists.

IOW--in a CTer's world, the following rule is king:

Since ALL of the evidence positively indicates that Lee Harvey Oswald was solely responsible for the deaths of BOTH John Kennedy and J.D. Tippit, it really means that THE EXACT OPPOSITE IS TRUE, and Oswald was completely innocent of BOTH murders.

Try and get a jury to accept the above philosophy (which is the EXACT philosophy that a lot of online conspiracy theorists are currently clinging to).

Here's a simple (and logical) question for David Lifton:

Why not just shoot Kennedy from the Book Depository and forget about all the cloak-and-dagger junk of altering the President's body...AND altering all of the photos and films and X-rays, etc.?

Were the plotters TRYING to concoct the most senseless and ridiculous and complicated assassination scenario ever devised by man?

Just asking.

And, btw, is there even ONE other conspiracy believer on this Education Forum website who believes in David Lifton's "No Shots Came From The Rear" scenario?

If even ONE other CTer answers "Yes" to my last question, my bladder will burst wide open.


DAVID LIFTON SAID A LOT OF FUNNY STUFF HERE.


DAVID VON PEIN THEN SAID:

I'd like to believe that your latest post on March 6, 2011, is a joke, but, alas, I'm quite sure it is not and that you were dead serious about all of the pure hogwash and fantasy-filled speculation you have uttered in that post.

As I have said in previous posts at a different forum, Vincent Bugliosi was way, WAY too kind to David S. Lifton in "Reclaiming History":

"IMO, Vince is far too kind to Mr. Lifton and his "research abilities" (especially when we consider the insane theory that was spawned and endorsed by Lifton via his "research"). VB must have been in a super-good mood the day he wrote the nice things that he penned in his book about Mr. Lifton. But Bugliosi also gets down to the bottom-line brass tacks of the matter when he makes these statements about David L.: "...One could safely say that David Lifton took folly to an unprecedented level. And considering the monumental foolishness of his colleagues in the conspiracy community, that's saying something."" -- DVP; April 21, 2008


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

The purpose of the Kennedy assassination was not just to kill the President...but to kill the man AND to get away with it.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

So the plotters did everything in their power to complicate the shooting and the plot to the Nth degree to make sure it would be virtually IMPOSSIBLE for the "All Shots Came From The Front" plot to stay a secret.

Ya gotta love the backward logic of David S. Lifton.

In addition....

The following hunk of logic never occurs to the conspiracy theorists who want to believe that everything connected to Oswald's rifle and revolver purchases is phony and fake:

If the whole rifle transaction was phony from the get-go, then why wouldn't the plotters who cooked up the scheme have made sure that the rifle's length MATCHED the ad from the magazine from which it was ordered?

In a truly "fake" and made-up-from-whole-cloth scenario regarding the rifle, would the conspirators have wanted to have a mis-match of rifle lengths so that the conspiracy mongers could now say what they are saying today? -- i.e., "Look! The C2766 rifle is the wrong length!"

This is just one more example (among dozens) of the built-in idiocy of the so-called "patsy framers" in this case. Everything is supposedly "manufactured" and planted ALL THROUGHOUT THE CASE to make it look as though Oswald did certain things and bought certain things and shot certain people -- but the retarded plotters apparently didn't know their asses from the hole in JFK's cranium.

E.G.,

1.) The brainless plotters couldn't tell "36 inches" from "40 inches".

2.) They plant a "Mauser" in the Depository (even though the patsy owned a Carcano).

3.) They shoot JFK from the front (even though their one and only patsy was located in the rear).

4.) They allow their one and only patsy to wander around on the lower floors of the Book Depository at the precise time they need him upstairs on the sixth floor shooting at the 35th U.S. President. (Brilliant planning and organizing here on the plotters' behalf!)

5.) They plant a bullet shell in the Sniper's Nest that could not possibly (per the conspiracy fantasists) have been fired on the day of the assassination, due to the dented lip. And yet the retard plotters evidently expected this "impossible" shell to go unnoticed by everyone in officialdom.

6.) They shoot J.D. Tippit with an AUTOMATIC gun (again, per the outer-fringe CTers who will do and say anything to try and exonerate cop-killer Oswald)....even though their patsy owns a revolver and not an automatic.

7.) And, according to some CTers, they place into evidence a Smith & Wesson revolver (#V510210) that could not possibly have been fired on 11/22/63, due to a bad/broken firing pin. And yet, at the same time, these same plotters (with a combined I.Q. of a Hostess cupcake) are attempting to make it look like Oswald DID, in fact, use that IMPOSSIBLE-TO-FIRE gun to kill Officer Tippit by placing into evidence four phony bullet shells from Revolver V510210.

A brilliant patsy plot all the way around, wasn't it? (Well, maybe if the plotters were Gomer and Goober Pyle.)


================================


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

If he [Vincent Bugliosi] wants to write about the JFK case, he should stick to the facts.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Can David Lifton REALLY not see the astounding hypocrisy that resides within the above statement. .... Absolutely incredible. (But hilarious.)


================================


DAVID LIFTON SAID (IN AN E-MAIL TO
SOMEONE ELSE IN JULY 2011):


It seems to me that, when it comes to the Newmans, DVP is just a flat out liar. (Would you not agree?)

FYI: In November, 1971, I was in Dallas and spent an evening with the Newmans--both of them. I had a SONY tape recorder. There was no question in their minds that the shots came from "above and behind" them--and by that they were talking about the area directly behind where they were standing, just as they indicated in their original interviews.

Guys like DVP are committed to a false reality, and will bend the English language to support their misconception.

I really do believe he's just a garden variety liar.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

David Lifton,

I take offense at being labelled a "garden variety liar" by you. When it comes to people who are "committed to a false reality" in the JFK case, it's certainly not me who falls into that category. It's you.

As for Bill and Gayle Newman, just take a look at the Bronson slide [below]. At the time of the head shot, what location is "directly behind" the Newman family?

Answer: the pergola/peristyle area -- NOT the famous Grassy Knoll/picket fence shooting location that you conspiracy kooks love so well:





William Newman is on record (within 25 minutes of the assassination) saying on WFAA-TV that he thought there were TWO shots, with both of those shots coming from the direction of the "mall" or "garden" behind him, which is not the picket fence area (like it or not). Let's listen:


video


And Mr. Newman is even more specific in his 11/22/63 affidavit, when he said:
"I thought the shot had come from the garden directly behind me". And there's no doubt that when he said "shot", he was referring to the HEAD SHOT, and Newman even confirms that fact in his 2003 interview at the Sixth Floor Museum.

And during that 2003 interview, Newman goes into even more detail about his observations (Part 2, at the 6:20 mark), when Bill says that his opinion about the direction from which the head shot came was derived more from the "visual impact that it had on me more so than the noise".

Newman saw the right side of the President's head explode, and he immediately interpreted that VISUAL experience (incorrectly) as a bullet that struck JFK in the right-front (temple) area of his head. And Newman explicitly says that very thing in his 2003 interview.


================================


RETURNING TO A PREVIOUS QUOTE....

DAVID LIFTON SAID:

I do not understand how today, people can return to these accounts and reasonably claim that this or that doctor did not see what he said he did. The notion that this is what the President's head looked like, at Bethesda, is--as far as I'm concerned--not just unlikely. It's simply absurd.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Question:

If David Lifton's theory is correct and President Kennedy's head wounds were altered and rearranged to make it look like the President had been shot only from the rear....then how would it have even been possible for a Bethesda witness like Paul O'Connor (et al) to have seen a large gaping hole in the back (occipital) part of JFK's head during the autopsy?

I mean, if O'Connor is RIGHT, then there must not have been ANY "head-altering surgery" performed on the President's head at all, right? Because if there had been the type of wound-altering surgery that Lifton says did occur PRIOR to the Bethesda autopsy, then the big "hole" in the back of Kennedy's head would not have even existed as of 8:00 PM EST on 11/22/63 when the autopsy began. Correct?

It seems to me that the "body alterationists" like David Lifton and Doug Horne want to have their cake and eat it too -- i.e., they want ALL of the "big hole in the back of the head" witnesses to be 100% correct (including the Bethesda "BOH" witnesses) and they also want the President's wounds to have been completely altered somewhere between Parkland and Bethesda. But how can the Bethesda "BOH" witnesses be correct if the covert body-altering surgeons at Walter Reed did their job properly and, in effect, eliminated the great-big hole in the back of JFK's cranium?

For Pete sake, what was the purpose of stealing JFK's corpse and whisking it away to the "Emergency Covert Body-Altering" section of the Conspiracy BatCave at Walter Reed if the end result is going to still be people like Paul K. O'Connor seeing a great-big hole in the back of JFK's head at the autopsy? Kind of a waste of time at Walter Reed, wasn't it?

Food for body-altering thought....isn't it David S. Lifton?


================================


AFTER LISTENING TO THIS 2014 RADIO INTERVIEW WITH DAVID LIFTON, DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Mr. Lifton has now added Merriman Smith of United Press International to his list of plotters and cover-up operatives. In this March 11, 2014, audio excerpt, Lifton says that he believes Smith had "foreknowledge" of a plot to murder President Kennedy in Dallas on November 22, 1963.

How about that, folks? Because of Merriman Smith's initial UPI wireservice bulletin stating that "three shots" had been fired at the President's motorcade, which is a bulletin that went out over all the UPI wires in the country at 12:34 PM CST on 11/22/63, just four minutes after the assassination, David Lifton thinks Smith had "foreknowledge" of a plan to kill JFK.

Which, by extrapolation, would mean that Lifton must also believe that all of the other witnesses who immediately reported "three shots" being fired at the President's car also had foreknowledge of a plot brewing in Dallas that day---including (among others) Jack Bell of the Associated Press, Jay Watson of WFAA-TV, cameraman Mal Couch of WFAA-TV, and Pierce Allman of WFAA-Radio.

In addition, there's eyewitness Bill Newman, who, no more than 25 minutes after the assassination, said that he heard only TWO shots fired, which is certainly not a number that fits very well into the kind of "more than three shots were fired" shooting scenario endorsed by David Lifton (unless David thinks several shots were of the "silenced" variety).

And Lifton's assassination scenario is further damaged by the testimony of various other witnesses who were in Dealey Plaza when the gunfire was ringing out, such as Nellie Connally and John Connally. Nellie is also a "three shots" witness (all coming from "over my right shoulder" according to Mrs. Connally, which would be from the general direction of the Book Depository).

And John Connally is also, in effect, a "three shots" witness too--with John hearing the first and third shots, while being struck by the second shot, which he said he did not hear. And, like Nellie, John Connally is very clear as to the direction he thought those shots were coming from--back over his right shoulder.

I wonder if Lifton considers all of those people I just mentioned (plus many more "three shots" witnesses I didn't mention) to be part of a conspiracy plot or cover-up? If so, Lifton's goofiness just might have reached new heights.

The more David Lifton talks, the more crowded it gets at the Conspiracy Hotel, which must have had its "No Vacancy" sign flashing before the end of the day on November 22nd.


================================


ON DECEMBER 25, 2014, DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

On Christmas morning 2014, I received a notification e-mail concerning the following tender and heartwarming Internet post written by conspiracy theorist David "The Body Was Altered" Lifton:

[Lifton Quote On:]

"David Von Pein is a good collector--and a webmaster of sorts. (Let's give credit where credit is due). But that's about all he is. He cannot reason very well, and--basically--he's a professional propagandist. If there had been an Internet 700 years ago, and he was around at that time, he'd be spending his time as a spokes-person for the Flat Earth Society. He's really not much better than that.

Von Pein is what happens when the readily available technology of the Internet gets into the hands of a closed mind and an intellectual reactionary.

But that's all right. We can all benefit from his website, even if he's too intellectually limited to "connect the dots" correctly.

DSL
12/25/14 - 8 am PST
Los Angeles, California"


[End Quote.]

-----------------------

And with the above bright and cheery greeting from Mr. Lifton, it gives me a good opportunity to reciprocate and to wish Mr. David S. Lifton a very Merry Christmas and a Happy 2015.

And if you want to see how Mr. Lifton's brilliant mind has managed to "connect the dots" in the JFK case, just scroll back up this page. (After all, everybody deserves a good hearty chuckle on Christmas Day....or any day.)


================================


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

Later that morning [November 22, 1963], Lee Oswald was observed on the elevator, going upstairs, and passed a witness (and her supervisor) and they both saw him carrying a long package. "What'cha got there?" he was asked. And Lee responded that it was a "fishing pole."

[...]

The witnesses who saw Oswald with the longer package (that he explained as "fishing rods") did not make their statements to the FBI, but certainly did talk about it years later. It was first published in 1988 in American History Illustrated. I communicated with the author--Ed Oxford--and found his research and interviews to be quite credible. (But that's a whole other story.)


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I've never heard that fairy tale before in my life. Who is the female witness, David? And who's the "supervisor"?

I'd love it if that story could somehow be proven to be true, though, because such a "fishing pole" lie being uttered by Lee Harvey Oswald would be just that much more of a solid indication that the package he was carrying on November 22nd contained his Carcano rifle.

Such a "fishing pole" tale, if true, would mean that Oswald told different lies to different people throughout the day on 11/22/63 -- with Lee telling Buell Wesley Frazier that the package contained "curtain rods", while (allegedly) telling someone else later in the day that the (presumably) very same package had a "fishing pole" in it.

You'd then have to ask yourself this question:

Why didn't Oswald just stick with the same story about curtain rods that he started the day with when he drove to work with Frazier? Because the more nonexistent things he tries to cram into that brown paper package, the more obvious (and provable) his lies become.

But I doubt any such "fishing pole" or "fishing rods" encounter ever happened in the first place, much the same way Robert Groden's bombshell "I Was Giving LHO Change At The Time Of The Assassination When We Heard The Shots" witness, Mrs. Reid, was a hoax too, with that wholly unbelievable story being invented many years later.

Because if that story allegedly told by Mrs. Reid had even a grain of truth in it, we would have heard it coming from the mouth of Lee Oswald himself after his arrest — "Hey, why am I being accused of shooting the President?! I was in the office on the second floor at that time, getting change for the Coke machine! Just ask Mrs. Reid. She was right there with me!" (Oswald, of course, never said anything of the kind to the police after he was arrested.)


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

DVP:

I'm not going to go further at this point in time. But the witness(es) exist and--from your post--you clearly understand the implications.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Well, then, what are the names of those two TSBD witnesses, David? I asked, but you failed to answer me. Or didn't Ed Oxford mention their names in his 1988 American History Illustrated article concerning the alleged "fishing pole/rods" statement?


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

You make a serious error when you refer to it as "that fairy tale" and I find it telling that you were unaware of the witness.

Saying "I've never heard that fairy tale before in my life" is revealing.

Surely you do understand that just because you are unaware of something does not mean it is non-existent.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Well, I'm certainly not alone, David. In fact, I'm in very good company when it comes to my ignorance on that topic. Because the late Vincent Bugliosi had apparently never heard the "fishing pole" tale either. No such information, at any rate, can be found on any of the 2800+ pages of "Reclaiming History", because I looked it up (via a word search in the PDF version of Bugliosi's book) and there are zero references to "fishing pole" or "fishing rods" relating to any kind of a story told by any Book Depository witnesses. So, like me, I guess Vince was in the dark about that particular story too.


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

Proving something like that to be true is important for the very reasons you stated: if true--i.e., if Oswald provided two separate (and different) explanations for the package would imply that Oswald was involved in deception; and of course, the ultimate implication was that what was in the package was neither curtain rods nor fishing rods.

I'll pursue this matter further in the future.

With regard to Buell Frazier .... I go way back to the original work done by the late George O'Toole, who emphasized how totally frightened Frazier was that weekend. Really "freaked out" (to use the more current vernacular).

FWIW: I spent time with Michael Paine in 1995--at his home in Boxboro, Mass.--and he revealed how frightened he was; and actually started crying during my taped interview.

I completely disagree with DiEugenio's oversimplified notion that these people (the Paines, Marina, etc.) are all crooked, etc. My impression, from watching several filmed interviews of Ruth Paine (particularly the ones you have archived on your thread #87) are very enlightening.

[...]

DiEugenio...just draws incorrect inferences, talks glibly, postulates false hypotheses (particularly about Ruth Paine), and then mounts his high horse and engages in slander.

To close again with your own quote: "Such a "fishing pole" tale, if true, would mean that Oswald told different lies to different people throughout the day on 11/22/63 -- with Lee telling Buell Wesley Frazier that the package contained "curtain rods", while (allegedly) telling someone else later in the morning that the (presumably) very same package had a "fishing pole" in it." Agreed. That is exactly the case; only I would not say "throughout the day." That [is] an inaccurate characterization of the situation. There are only two points on the time line. Two separate times when he spoke to the issue of what was in the package.

Regarding the question you posed: it's a reasonable one. And I don't have a great answer. But one possibility does occur to me: that when Frazier saw him with the package (early in the morning of 11/22) the rifle was "disassembled", whereas when the "elevator" witness saw him with it, it had been completely assembled and was "thinner" and somewhat longer; consequently, "curtain rods" would not be an adequate explanation for the second observer (or observers).


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

But via the scenario that you just outlined, David, the completely assembled 40.2-inch rifle would have been too long for the 38-inch brown paper bag Oswald was carrying it in [CE142], and, hence, part of the gun would likely have been sticking out of the top (or bottom) of the bag when the two TSBD witnesses (allegedly) saw Oswald carrying it in the elevator on 11/22/63. Unless the gun could have been placed into the bag at a slight angle, which might have made it possible for a 40-inch object to be completely hidden within a 38-inch paper bag. But I've never done any experiments on this before, so I'm not sure if the 2.2-inch differential in the lengths could be completely compensated for by putting the rifle into the bag at an angle.

Now, I suppose any of the above speculative scenarios are possible, I don't deny that. But allowing part of the weapon to protrude out of the bag (if, in fact, the gun could not be put into the bag in a way to conceal the entire length of the C2766 Mannlicher-Carcano carbine) would have been a risky thing for Oswald to do.

But, I guess under such a circumstance, Lee wouldn't have had too many choices either. He probably wouldn't want to construct a whole new bag from Troy West's TSBD wrapping table just for the purpose of transporting the rifle up to the sixth floor from a lower floor. So, as an alternative, he could possibly have placed his hand over the end of the bag (where the rifle was protruding), in order to temporarily hide the gun from any prying eyes that might want to gaze upon it as Lee ascended to the sixth floor. Such a "fly by the seat of your pants" plan would certainly be possible and doable, IMO.

I still have great doubts about the "fishing pole" / "fishing rods" story, however. But I will readily admit that I could be wrong when it comes to my deep skepticism on this matter. In fact, as I said earlier....

"I'd love it if that story could somehow be proven to be true...because such a "fishing pole" lie being uttered by Lee Harvey Oswald would be just that much more of a solid indication that the package he was carrying on November 22nd contained his Carcano rifle."


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

To recap (and this is just speculation): "curtain rods" would be a reasonable explanation for the way he described the package to BWF (early on Friday morning) but not the way it appeared when seen on the elevator sometime later. Just a thought. Without a time machine, or modern day security cameras, perhaps we'll never know.

Re your final comment: "But I doubt any such "fishing pole" or "fishing rods" encounter ever happened in the first place" is quite incorrect; and there is no comparison between the situation to which I'm referring and the sort of nonsense promulgated by Robert Groden re Mrs. Reid. Mrs Reid--as you well know--was interviewed by the FBI and Secret Service, and then testified to the WC. From the standpoint of valid historiography, she cannot "amend" her account a half century later, and be credible. Assuming her late arriving account is the truth, I can only say this: If she indeed had "made change" for Oswald, then she would have to have stated that from the beginning. That's not something that can be added to a story a half century later. Once she doesn't say it when originally interviewed, then she cannot expect that account to be believed.

DSL
4/6/16 - 5:50 a.m. PDT
Los Angeles, California


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Thank you, David Lifton, for your detailed reply of Wednesday morning, April 6th, 2016 AD, written from the great western city of Los Angeles, California, home of the Los Angeles Dodgers, long-time rivals of my favorite baseball team, the Cincinnati Reds, Riverfront Stadium, Cincinnati, Ohio, USA, Western Hemisphere, Earth, Milky Way.

DVP
4/6/16 - 6:59 p.m. EDT
Mooresville, Indiana




================================


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

It was never intended that there would be two medico-legal records: one from certain medical personnel who saw the body prior to alteration; and a second record emerging from those present at the official autopsy.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Which means that the people who arranged, "in advance, to alter the body (as part of the crime)", MUST have thought that after he was shot, President Kennedy would NOT be transported to any hospital in the Dallas area for medical treatment.

Is that what you're suggesting, Mr. Lifton?

But, just for the sake of argument, even if your theory is correct about a pre-planned "sophisticated strategic deception", how could the plotters who were planning such a complicated mission on 11/22/63 have possibly thought they could have totally concealed the FRONTAL gunshot wounds that these gunmen/conspirators knew were going to be sustained by JFK during the shooting in Dealey Plaza (since you think ALL shots that hit the President came from the FRONT and not the REAR)?

How on Earth could such a crazy, backward plot to kill the President possibly be successful, given the fact that anyone with half a brain HAD to know that the injured President was most certainly going to be rushed to the nearest hospital immediately after the injuries were sustained -- i.e., well BEFORE any kind of covert body-altering surgery could have possibly been performed on the body of the President?

I think only these four words need to be uttered at this point...

It makes no sense!

DVP
4/04/2017; 12:37 p.m. EDT
Mooresville, Indiana USA


GERRY SIMONE SAID:

Hello David [VP],

Maybe the plan all along was for only rear shooterS getting JFK, but when they had to rely on a frontal shooter, then it complicated things and the cover-up apparatus went into overdrive.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Utilizing ANY frontal shooters AT ALL within an assassination plot like the one purported by David Lifton (and all other CTers who think Oswald was being set up in advance to take the fall as the lone assassin) would have been suicide for the conspirators.

How can that basic fact not be blatantly obvious to everybody here?


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

David Von Pein:

In this regard, I cannot speak for anyone else, only for myself, but you are dead wrong, as will be established definitively with the publication of Final Charade. In the interim, please engage in the following thought experiment:

Step 1: Imagine a large dumpster, of the kind used to pick up trash in many communities. (They are all over the roads, here in Southern California, especially in the early morning hours, clanking loudly as they race down the major avenues towards their various destinations).

Step 2: Imagine a big sign being placed on that dumpster device: “Dustbin of History” (and perhaps in small type, and in order to give proper intellectual credit: “Original wording, per Leon Trotsky”).

Step 3: Imagine yourself being consigned to that location, because of your persistent and very loud statements that the President could not have been shot from the front (and setting aside the issue of whether he was shot “only” from the front). You keep pointing out this problem, and I gather it concerns you deeply. That is a good sign. It shows you have the capacity to think logically. Now, to the next step. . .

SOMETHING FOR YOU TO PONDER: Do you really think that those who engineered the plan to remove Kennedy from office were so stupid that they set up a plan to shoot him in a motorcade, and to frame a “pre-selected patsy” (etc.), and yet were such dunderheads that they failed to conceive of a plan to remove bullets, much less alter wounds? Do you not think that anyone with an IQ above room temperature might conceive of the necessity for such planning?

Or do you believe you're the only person, blessed with the intelligence and insight, to raise such an issue?

Food for thought.

DSL
4/5/2017 – 11:35 a.m. PDT
Los Angeles, California


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

But you see, David, since I don't think for one second that there was a group of people out there who "engineered the plan to remove Kennedy from office", I, therefore, don't have to engage in the wild speculation that you have engaged in for the last fifty-one years about "altered wounds" and "falsified evidence" and an elaborate "sophisticated strategic deception".

In my opinion, Lee Harvey Oswald, acting alone, killed President Kennedy by firing three shots at him from the sixth floor of the Book Depository Building. And the evidence in the case most certainly supports that basic fundamental conclusion (despite the continued protestations of conspiracy theorists).

But even if I were to take a big leap off of your unique conspiracy-slanted diving board and accept the idea that some unknown group was responsible for JFK's death, my previous "It makes no sense!" comment would still be a perfectly valid and reasonable comment. Because no sensible person who was in the process of planning--IN ADVANCE--the following two things (in tandem with each other) would have even considered for even a single moment the idea of shooting at President Kennedy from the FRONT....

1. Kill John F. Kennedy.

2. Frame Lee Harvey Oswald as the lone "patsy" for JFK's murder.


By firing any bullets into JFK's body FROM THE FRONT, the plotters have virtually guaranteed that #2 could not be accomplished (unless, that is, God Himself was part of the assassination hit team).

DVP
4/05/2017; 4:14 p.m. EDT
Mooresville, Indiana USA


================================


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

Here's the problem: There is no Dallas Police Department record--no DPD report, no DPD inventory, no DPD photographs, etc.--nor is there any such FBI record, of a filing cabinet. Filing cabinets are big items--I know. I have over 45 of them--2 drawer, 4 drawer, and 5 drawer. Items that big couldn't just "disappear"--I don't think. So my take on this, over the years, is that what someone called a "filing cabinet" was in fact a little metal box with some 5 x 7 index cards inside. And that's why, when I was carefully reviewing the FBI (and/or DPD, I forget which just now) "property lists," the presence of those particular cards excited my interest. And that's why I ordered copies of them.

Believe me: I wouldn't put anything past the DPD, but it's just not in the range of plausibility that they could make a 4 drawer filing cabinet (or even a 2 drawer one) just disappear. Without a trace. And without someone saying, "Oh yeah, and then I saw these mover people come in and they were rolling this filing cabinet out on a dolly". You know what I'm getting at. As for those small metal boxes that hold 3 x 5 or 5 x 7 index cards--that's an entirely different story.

DSL
4/21/2017 - 10:45 a.m. PDT
Los Angeles, California


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

David L.,

It's clear from Buddy Walthers' Warren Commission testimony that Walthers was NOT talking about the great big type of "filing cabinets" that you'd find in offices. He specifically used the word "LITTLE" before he used the words "FILE CABINETS". And he then goes on to describe in more detail the size of those "cabinets" [see 7 H 548]....

"...and then we found some little metal file cabinets—I don't know
what kind you would call them—they would carry an 8 by 10 folder, all
right, but with a single handle on top of it and the handle moves."

-- Buddy Walthers; July 23, 1964

Also see:
jfk-archives.blogspot.com/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-87/File-Cabinets

DVP
4/22/2017; 3:48 a.m. EDT
Mooresville, Indiana USA


================================





================================


SOME MISC. E-MAIL DISCUSSIONS....


Subject: Marguerite Oswald on WOAI in December 1966
Date: 7/24/2015
From: David Lifton
To: David Von Pein


------------------------------

DVP:

There are news clips and documents that state that Marguerite Oswald was interviewed—at some length—on radio station WOAI (San Antonio).

I wonder if you have that—somewhere in your collection.

Or: if you do not, if you could (somehow) obtain the audio for that program (and/or a transcript).

Marguerite, of course, sets forth her theories on various aspects of the JFK case; and I would like to hear what she had to say.

DSL


=================================


Subject: Re: Marguerite Oswald on WOAI in December 1966
Date: 7/25/2015
From: David Von Pein
To: David Lifton


------------------------------

Hi DSL,

I don't have the WOAI interview. Nor do I know where a transcript can be obtained.

You might find the following Marguerite links useful, however....

YouTube.com/watch?v=NSz1Y5ft13Q

Marguerite Oswald Reads Lee Harvey Oswald's Letters From Russia


DVP

----------------------

Subject: Your Connecticut radio station narrative
Date: 11/27/2015
From: David Lifton
To: David Von Pein


------------------------------

DVP:

I listened to your Connecticut radio station broadcast yesterday with some interest, and made notes which you might be interested in.

FWIW: I was surprised by how long they kept broadcasting their ordinary programming, unaware of what was going on in Dallas.

By using that particular station, you were able to write your own narrative, and the listener (e.g., me) kept thinking: “Oh, come on now, don’t you realize what has happened in Dallas? When are you going to wake up and learn about that?”

Anyway, my notes aside (I found some typos and some errors you may wish to correct in your narrative), I have one request.

In your narrative, you stated that Dan Rather reported that JFK was transferred to an ambulance. I am aware that AP reported that factoid at about 12:49 CST (approx., I’m writing this from memory), but I did not know that Dan Rather actually read that dispatch over the air.

My request: could you please point me to the source of that particular piece of sound?

Your have archived quite a few radio stations on your YouTube channel, and I have no idea which one might be the one that carried that particular report.

Could you please point me to the source?

Ideally, I would like to have that snippet of sound to play for someone with whom I’m meeting tonight for a late dinner.

Do you think you could provide me the source, and perhaps the exact “coordinates”, so I could just click on it, and play it, on my laptop?

I would appreciate that.

Thank you.

DSL


=================================


Subject: Dan Rather & "The Ambulance"
Date: 11/27/2015
From: David Von Pein
To: David Lifton


------------------------------

Here it is:




It's a CBS radio report by Dan Rather, with Rather saying that JFK "was taken into an ambulance and rushed to Dallas' Parkland Hospital". This occurs at the 8:57 mark of Part 1 of my WCCO-Radio (Minneapolis) series, which equates to about 12:55 PM CST.

And in video form, here's Dan Rather narrating a film and saying that an ambulance had transported JFK to Parkland (it's at the 2:13:02 mark in Part 2 of my CBS-TV series):





For the record....

The "narrative" you were referring to in your last mail is NOT mine. Those captions were written by Doug Bertel and they are presented on Doug's YouTube channel, not mine.

Doug Bertel, btw, is the son of WTIC-Radio announcer Dick Bertel, who was on the air quite a bit on 11/22/63 providing bulletins to the Hartford radio audience.

David V.P.

----------------------

Subject: Missing Zapruder frames (in the Life issue that you are using)
Date: 2/28/2016
From: David Lifton
To: David Von Pein


------------------------------

David:

At your blog, where you go through all the Life magazine issues that have anything to do with Kennedy, there is a serious omission in the 10/2/64 issue which deals with the Warren Report.

The caption describes 8 pictures.

But there are only 4 Z frames shown. 1, 2, 3 and 5.

For whatever reason. 4, 6 and 7 are not shown in the Internet Link that you provide.

I think you should correct that.

If/when you do, please let me know, and perhaps provide the new (or revised) link.

Thanks.

DSL


=================================


Subject: Re: Missing Zapruder frames
Date: 2/28/2016
From: David Von Pein
To: David Lifton


------------------------------

That is odd....especially since the frames go from number 3 to number 5, skipping 4, even though 3 and 5 are on the SAME page [here]. Weird.

But how would you suggest that I go about "correcting" it, David? I have no control over those Google LIFE images.

DVP


=================================


Subject: Flaw in the original magazine, as scanned
Date: 2/28/2016
From: David Lifton
To: David Von Pein


------------------------------

David:

I just checked via Google.

The flaw is in the original document.

Have no idea why those pages were not scanned.

[...]

As far as “correcting” this situation goes, perhaps the only way is to bring to the attention of the creator of this Internet product —Google?, and the right department or official there—and letting them know that their scan was improperly done, and that they should correct the situation.

For now, and if you could help on this matter, I would appreciate it if you could either direct me to (or provide yourself) a proper image of those frames that are missing from the Google product, as published: #4, #6, #7 and #8. Most important to me are pictures #7 and #8.

Ideally, I would like a scan off of the Life magazine page; i.e., just as it [was] published, with the black border, and the little white number at the left.

Second: if such an image is not available or cannot be created, i.e., if you do not happen to have that issue of Life (10/2/64) at hand, do you happen to know the Z frame number for photo #7 and #8?

Please respond asap.

To recap: If you happen to have the Life issue of 10/2/64, and could scan the “missing” images, that would be great.

OTOH: If you could provide an Internet link to some other site which happens to have posted those pages from that Life issue, that would also be helpful.

Finally, I would like the exact Z frame numbers of those missing frames.

Thanks.

DSL


=================================


Subject: Re: Missing Zapruder frames
Date: 2/29/2016
From: David Von Pein
To: David Lifton


------------------------------

I don't know the Z-Frame numbers for 7 and 8. And, no, I do not have the 10/2/64 LIFE magazine.

[...]

It's kind of interesting to note that the very same issue of LIFE Magazine that has those Z-Film frames missing is the same issue of LIFE that includes these inaccuracies about Howard Brennan.

DVP

----------------------

Subject: Please address this issue as soon as you can
Date: 3/26/2016
From: David Lifton
To: David Von Pein


------------------------------

David,

Re your post on your YouTube channel titled:

JFK ARRIVES IN DALLAS, TEXAS, ON 11/22/63

Who is the announcer?

I am getting conflicting opinions from two different individuals, each of whom claims to have reliable knowledge.

Here is what Wikipedia states:

QUOTE:

"Dallas/Fort Worth's television stations were given separate assignments. As Bob Walker of WFAA-TV 8 (ABC) was providing live coverage of the President's arrival at Love Field, KRLD-TV 4 (CBS) with Eddie Barker was set up at the Trade Mart for Kennedy's luncheon speech. KTVT Channel 11 (Independent), had originated live coverage of the President's breakfast speech in Fort Worth earlier that day. On hand to report the arrival on radio was Joe Long of KLIF 1190."

UNQUOTE

Is it Bob Walker? Channel 8....WFAA news director?


=================================


Subject: Re: Bob Walker
Date: 3/26/2016
From: David Von Pein
To: David Lifton


------------------------------

Yes, it's Bob Walker. He even says his name at the beginning of the video [embedded below] --- "This is Bob Walker speaking..."

DVP



----------------------

Subject: Question I have -- "When was Connally standing?"
Date: 3/28/2016
From: David Lifton
To: David Von Pein


------------------------------

David,

I much appreciated your identification of the narrator as Bob Walker.

Since that email exchange, additional questions have arisen.

At issue is just when [Governor John] Connally was "standing" and when the Ward Warren film showing him standing was exposed.

Can you help?

If you can address the question I am asking, and help clarify the situation, that would be much appreciated.

(Let me cut to the chase, as the saying goes: is it your understanding that when this image (see below) was exposed, JC [John Connally] was in the car, and it contained Jack and Jackie, and it was already moving? Or was this image taken before President and Mrs. Kennedy even reached the limo, and took their seats?)



Please let me know what you think.

Thanks.

DSL

P.S. And who are all those people with the gray uniforms on in the background? I don’t recall seeing any such group to the port side of the limo at Love Field, so I am thoroughly confused. (Is it possible that this image comes from San Antonio???)


=================================


Subject: Re: "When was Connally standing?"
Date: 3/28/2016
From: David Von Pein
To: David Lifton


------------------------------

I can definitely help you on this....

The "Connally standing up" footage is definitely taken at Love Field, not in San Antonio.

JFK's limo, with Connally standing up holding his Stetson hat, was moved forward slowly a few times during the period when JFK and Jackie were walking along the fence line at Love Field shaking hands with the crowd. It is during one of those "moving forward" periods that Ward Warren, right at the end of his film, captured the car in motion with Governor Connally standing up in the car.

Here's a still image showing Connally standing up in the limo at Love Field prior to JFK and Jackie entering the car. As you can see, LBJ is also not in his car yet either when this picture was taken:



And the women in the gray uniforms in the background in the Warren Film are (I think) airline stewardesses and other airline personnel who came out to see the President at Love Field.

Bob Walker and Joe Long (the latter being the narrator for the KLIF Radio coverage of the Dallas arrival) mentioned in their broadcasts something about airline personnel coming out of the airport buildings to see JFK that morning.

Hope this helps.

David V.P.


=================================


Subject: Re: "When was Connally standing?"
Date: 3/29/2016
From: David Lifton
To: David Von Pein


------------------------------

David V.P.:

Yes, this really does help, and does indeed clarify the situation.

I have this question, if you’d care to elaborate: how did you “figure out” (or “arrive at the conclusion”) that the JFK limo was driving along, slowly, as JFK was doing his thing along the fence??

I have no doubt you are correct; it fits. But I don’t understand how you were able to unearth that explanation.

Did you interview someone? Is there some film which provided that perspective, and made clear what was going on? Or what?

Until your email, I had no idea that the JFK limo “moved” as JFK was greeting people at the fence.

Anyway, thanks for your help.

Very useful.

DSL


=================================


Subject: Re: "When was Connally standing?"
Date: 3/29/2016
From: David Von Pein
To: David Lifton


------------------------------

Well, for one thing, we can SEE the limo moving while Connally is standing up in the Ward Warren film. (And the Warren Film was definitely taken in Dallas, not San Antonio. That fact is confirmed in the description of the film at The Sixth Floor Museum website.)

Plus, you can see some of the cars in the motorcade moving forward at the 22:30 mark in the WFAA/Walker Love Field video.

DVP



----------------------

Subject: Request for assistance
Date: 4/7/2016
From: David Lifton
To: David Von Pein


------------------------------

DVP:

I wonder if you could help me out.

The other night, on YouTube, I watched a piece of footage (which you may have posted, I don’t know that for sure) which contained the lengthiest (and most informal) footage of the Newmans I have ever seen. More important, it contained other witnesses as well.

Let me describe it:

I believe it started with Zapruder, and then with Moorman and then Hill; and then the Newmans.

Both Newmans seated with Jay Watson.

Then came the other fellow—Mr. Peppermint.

Then Mrs. Newman (and her baby) left, so it was just Bill Newman and Watson (and Peppermint, I think).

Then there was moot footage, only now with Watson standing up, nearby, in an office setting, with Bill Newman.

I wanted to go back to all of it, and make some notes; and now I can’t find it.

You are very familiar with all of this material.

Could you please send me the link to this item?

(And --- Are you the one that posted it?)

I have the general impression that it was (originally) compiled—or pasted together—by WFAA, and then you (or someone) posted it on YouTube.

Again, I would really like to review it again, but I need the link.

Thanks.

DSL


=================================


Subject: Re: Request for assistance
Date: 4/8/2016
From: David Von Pein
To: David Lifton


------------------------------

Hi,

It sounds like most of that footage is the live TV coverage from WFAA-TV (with Watson, Haynes [Mr. Peppermint], and the Newmans).

But the stuff with Zapruder, Hill, and Moorman UP FRONT, before the Newmans, must be a compilation of some kind (as you suggested).

I don't recall putting together any "Highlights" video like that. (Although I have several “DVP's Highlights” videos on my sites that I have compiled over the years.) But my WFAA Highlights program wouldn't show Moorman and Zapruder PRIOR to the Newmans.

Anyway, here's the (uncut) WFAA link....



DVP


===============================


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