TESTIMONY OF BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
FRAZIER'S 1964 TESTIMONY:
PART 1 --- PART 2
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Buell Wesley Frazier was 19 years old when he drove President
Kennedy's assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald, to work on the morning of
Friday, November 22, 1963.
Both Frazier and Oswald were employees at the Texas School Book
Depository in November of 1963. The Depository was located on Elm
Street in Dallas, Texas, and overlooked the last part of JFK's
motorcade route through downtown Dallas on 11/22/63.
Lee Oswald took his rifle to work in Frazier's car on November 22nd,
and Oswald killed the President from the sixth floor of the Depository
Building at 12:30 PM CST that day.
Below are excerpts from Wesley Frazier's 1964 Warren Commission
testimony. I've included some of my own comments along the way
too, plus a few links to some related articles.
Frazier's complete testimony can be seen, in two parts, at the links
provided at the top of this post.
--------------------------------------------------------------
JOSEPH A. BALL -- "You call yourself Buell or Wesley?"
BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER -- "I go by Wesley."
MR. BALL -- "Well, Wesley, what is your age?" ....
MR. FRAZIER -- "Nineteen."
MR. BALL -- "Where do you live?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "For the time being I am living in Irving now."
MR. BALL -- "Irving, Texas?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir."
MR. BALL -- "What is the address where you live?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "2439 West Fifth Street."
MR. BALL -- "Did you live there in November 1963?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir; I did."
MR. BALL -- "And who lives in that house with you?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "My sister and brother-in-law and their three
children."
MR. BALL -- "Will you state their names, your sister's name?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Linnie Mae Randle and my brother-in-law. I believe his
real name is William Edward Randle. We call him Bill. They have three
little girls, Diana, Patricia and Caroline Sue."
COMMISSION DOCUMENT 497 -- PAINE AND RANDLE HOMES, IRVING, TEXAS
--------------------------------------------------------------
MR. BALL -- "Where do you work?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Work at Texas School Books."
MR. BALL -- "How long have you worked there?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "I have been working there since September."
MR. BALL -- "September of 1963?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Correct."
MR. BALL -- "What kind of work do you do there?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "I fill orders."
--------------------------------------------------------------
MR. BALL -- "About what length of time does it take you to go from
your sister's home to work in the morning?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "I usually leave not any later than 7:25. I usually try
to leave about 7:20, and if you leave at 7:20...by the time you get
down to the parking lot...it is usually pretty close to 5 minutes to
8, and that gives you enough time to walk to the Book Depository, put
up your lunch, and take off your coat."
MR. BALL -- "Did you have a place to park your car?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir."
MR. BALL -- "Was it assigned to you by Mr. Truly?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir. He just said we had a parking lot there and
showed me where it was and said you can park in the parking lot."
MR. BALL -- "Was that the parking lot two or three blocks from the
building?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir. It is down there, right across from the
warehouse there."
--------------------------------------------------------------
MR. BALL -- "When did you first hear of Lee Harvey Oswald, first hear
the name?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "I first heard--I never really did know his name, we
just called him Lee around there. But the first time I ever saw him
was the first day he come to work."
MR. BALL -- "Had you heard he was coming to work before he came to
work?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "I will say, you know, talking back and forth with the
bossman all the time and from being around and getting along real fine
and so he told me, I assume the day after he hired him that he was
going to have him come in on Monday and he asked me had I ever seen
him and I told him then no; I had never seen him."
MR. BALL -- "Had your sister told you that this fellow, Lee, was
coming to work?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, she did. She said one afternoon when I went home,
she told me she found out from one of the neighbors there he came over
for that interview with Mr. Truly and Mr. Truly had hired him."
[DVP INTERJECTION -- Lee Harvey Oswald's Book Depository work application (Commission Exhibit No. 496) is kind of interesting. It can be seen below; and an article relating to Oswald's TSBD application is HERE.]
--------------------------------------------------------------
MR. BALL -- "Did [William H.] Shelly [sic; Shelley] introduce you to
him or did you go up and shake hands with him?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir; he didn't. I remember, I knew...that he was
going to be coming to work, so naturally I hadn't been there very
long, you know, living in Dallas, and so I wanted to make friends with
everybody I could, because you know yourself friendship is something
you can't buy with money and you always need friends. So I went up and
introduced [myself] and he told me his name was Lee, and I said, "We
are glad to have you."
"We got talking back and forth and he come to find out I knew his
wife was staying there at the time with this other woman, and so
I thought he would go out there and I said, "Are you going to be
going home this afternoon?" And he told me then, he told me that
he didn't have a car, you know, and so I told him, I said, "Well, I
live out there in Irving," I found out he lived out there and so I said,
"Any time you want to go just let me know."
"So I thought he would go home every day like most men do, but he
told me no, that he wouldn't go home every day, and then he asked
me could he ride home, say, like Friday afternoon on weekends and
come back on Monday morning, and I told him that would be just fine
with me.
"I told him if he wanted a ride any other time just let me know before
I go off and leave him, because when it comes to quitting time some
of these guys, you know, some of them mess around the bathroom
and some of them quit early and...some leave at different times than
others. But I said from talking to him then, I say, he just wanted to
ride home on weekends with me and I said that was fine."
MR. BALL -- "Did he say at that time he was living in Dallas, he had a
room in Dallas?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir, he did. He had an apartment."
MR. BALL -- "Did he say where?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir, he didn't. He just said he had an apartment
over in Dallas."
--------------------------------------------------------------
MR. BALL -- "Did he [Lee Oswald] ride home with you in your car on
weekends?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir; he did."
MR. BALL -- "On Friday nights?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Right."
MR. BALL -- "From that time until November 22 [1963], did he ride home
with you every weekend?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir. He did every weekend but one."
MR. BALL -- "Do you remember that date?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir, I don't."
--------------------------------------------------------------
MR. BALL -- "On the way back and forth did you talk very much to each
other?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir, not very much. .... I am not very old, but I
have seen a lot of guys in my time, just going to school, different
boys and girls, some talk a lot and some don't, so I didn't think
anything strange about that.
"About the only time you could get anything out of the talking was
about babies. .... I would always get something out of it when I
asked him about the babies, because it seemed he was very fond
of children, because when I asked him he chuckled and told me
about what he was doing about the babies over the weekend; and
sometimes we would talk about the weather...but not very much."
--------------------------------------------------------------
MR. BALL -- "At the Texas School Book Depository, you have lunch, 45-
minute lunch hour, don't you?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Right."
MR. BALL -- "Did you pack your lunch from home?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir, I always took lunch."
MR. BALL -- "Do you remember whether or not when Oswald came back with
you on any Monday morning or any weekend did he pack his lunch?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir; he did."
MR. BALL -- "He did?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir. When he rode with me, I say he always
brought lunch except that one day on November 22 he didn't bring his
lunch that day."
MR. BALL -- "But every other day he brought a lunch?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Right, when he rode with me."
MR. BALL -- "Would he bring it in a paper sack or what kind of a
container?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir; like a little paper sack you get out of a
grocery store, you have seen these little old sacks that you could
buy--sandwich bag sack."
MR. BALL -- "Did you carry your lunch in a paper sack?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir; I did."
MR. BALL -- "There is a lunch room in the Texas School Book
Depository?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir."
MR. BALL -- "Is that on the first floor?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir, on the second floor."
MR. BALL -- "There is some kind of a recreation room on the first
floor?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "There is a little domino room there where some of the
guys go in and play dominoes."
MR. BALL -- "But the lunch room is on the second floor?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Right."
MR. BALL -- "Do they sell any food there?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir, they don't. About all they sell in the lunch
room is different types of soft drinks. .... Then you have an
assortment of cookies and candies and peanuts and so forth on the
machine there. That is about all they have."
MR. BALL -- "Do you remember whether or not Oswald packed his lunch,
brought his lunch on other days, the days that he didn't ride with
you?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "To be frank with you, I don't know whether he brought
his lunch, because...some guys bring their lunch there and some guys
buy it there, because we have a caterer service, you see, comes around
about 10 o'clock. The man comes around and several of the boys, they
go out there and buy their lunch from the catering service. .... 12
o'clock is when we always eat lunch."
MR. BALL -- "12 to 12:45?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Right." ....
MR. BALL -- "Did you ever eat lunch with Oswald?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir, I never have."
MR. BALL -- "Did you ever see him eating lunch?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir, I never have seen him eat lunch. I have seen
him go to the Dr. Pepper machine by the refrigerator and get a Dr.
Pepper, but I never have seen him, you might say, sit right down and
eat his lunch."
[DVP -- The "Dr. Pepper machine by the refrigerator" mentioned by Wesley Frazier in the above testimony is a soda machine that is rarely talked about by anyone in JFK-assassination circles, but it is a rather interesting topic in some ways, as discussed in this article.
The Dr. Pepper machine was located near the back stairway on the first floor of the Book Depository Building. A Coca-Cola machine was located in the lunchroom itself (on the second floor).
Warren Commission Document #496 shows a picture of the first-floor Dr. Pepper machine and the refrigerator that were mentioned by Frazier during his testimony:
The topic of the Dr. Pepper machine comes up in Vincent Bugliosi's 2007 book "Reclaiming History". Here are some excerpts:
"Through a few phone calls I was able to reach Wesley Frazier, whom I hadn't talked to since 1986, when he testified for me at the London trial [the TV docu-trial, "On Trial: Lee Harvey Oswald"]. Still living in Dallas, he told me that "there was a Dr. Pepper machine on the first floor." Where, specifically, was it? [Frazier said:] "It was located by the double freight elevator near the back of the
building." ....
"And indeed, I subsequently found proof of the existence of the machine, with the words "Dr. Pepper" near the top front of it, in an FBI photo [CD496; Photo 7] taken for the Warren Commission of the northwest corner of the first floor, and it is located right next to the refrigerator. ....
"So we see that apart from all the conclusive evidence that Oswald shot Kennedy from the sniper's nest, and therefore HAD to have descended from there to the second floor, his story about going UP to the second floor to get a Coke doesn't even make sense.
"Why go up to the second floor to get a drink for your lunch when there's a soft drink machine on the first floor, the floor you say you are already on, particularly when the apparent drink of your choice [Dr. Pepper by all accounts] is on this first floor, not the second floor?" -- Vincent Bugliosi; Pages 957 and 958 of "Reclaiming History: The Assassination Of President John F. Kennedy" (W.W. Norton & Co.)(c.2007)]
--------------------------------------------------------------
MR. BALL -- "Now, there was the one date that Oswald came to you and
asked you to drive him back to Irving, it was not a Friday, was it?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir, it wasn't."
MR. BALL -- "It was on a Thursday."
MR. FRAZIER -- "Right."
MR. BALL -- "Was that the 21st of November?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir."
MR. BALL -- "Well, tell us about that."
MR. FRAZIER -- "Well, I say, we were standing like I said at the four-
headed table about half as large as this, not quite half as large, but
anyway I was standing there getting the orders in and he said, "Could
I ride home with you this afternoon?" And I said, "Sure. You know,
like I told you, you can go home with me any time you want to, like I
say anytime you want to go see your wife that is all right with me."
"So automatically I knew it wasn't Friday, I come to think it wasn't
Friday and I said, "Why are you going home today?" And he says,
"I am going home to get some curtain rods." He said, "You know, put
in an apartment." He wanted to hang up some curtains and I said,
"Very well." And I never thought more about it and I had some
invoices in my hands for some orders and I walked on off and started
filling the orders."
MR. BALL -- "This was on what floor?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "This was on the first floor."
MR. BALL -- "About what time in the morning?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "I would say sometime between eight and ten, because I
go to work at eight and I would break at ten."
MR. BALL -- "Was it at the break time or before?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "It was before the break."
MR. BALL -- "It was before noon then?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir."
--------------------------------------------------------------
MR. BALL -- "The next morning [Friday, November 22, 1963] you had
breakfast about what time?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Between 7 and 7:15, that is the time I usually come to
the breakfast table, about 7."
MR. BALL -- "Breakfast table in the kitchen?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir. It is in the den."
MR. BALL -- "And the kitchen windows look out on what street,
Westbrook or Fifth?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Westbrook." ....
MR. BALL -- "There is a back door, is there, to the kitchen?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, there is. .... We have a double carport...type of
garage."
MR. BALL -- "As you were having breakfast, did your mother say
anything to you about Oswald?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "I was sitting there eating my breakfast there, so
sitting there, I usually talk to my little nieces, you know, they have
them cartoons on for a while and we usually talk a little bit back and
forth while eating breakfast, and I was just finishing my coffee there
and my sister, you know, was working over there around the sink there,
and she was fixing my lunch so she was somewhere around there over on
the cabinets fixing the cabinets and mother just happened to glance up
and saw this man, you know, who was Lee looking in the window for me
and she said, "Who is that?"
"And I said, "That is Lee," and naturally he just walked around and so
I thought he just walked around there on the carport right there close
to the door, and so I told her I had to go; so I went in there and brushed
my teeth right quick and come through there and I usually have my coat
laying somewhere on the chair and picked it up and put it on. And by
that time my sister had my lunch, you know, in a sack and sitting over
there on the washer where I picked it up right there by the door, and I
just walked on out and we got in the car." ....
MR. BALL -- "When your mother mentioned, "Who is that," you looked
up and saw Lee Oswald in the kitchen window?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "I just saw him for a split second and when he saw I
saw him, I guess he heard me say, "Well, it is time to go," and he
walked down by the back door there."
GERALD R. FORD -- "When he would go with you on Monday, on any
Monday, was this the same procedure for...getting in contact with you?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "You mean coming in there and looking through the
window?"
MR. FORD -- "Yes."
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir, it wasn't. .... That is the first time he had
ever done that. .... Most times I would usually call him, you know, I
was already out in the car fixing to go out the driveway there, and,
you know, around to pick him up if he hadn't come down. But...once in
a while I picked him up at the house and another time he was already
coming down the sidewalk to the house when I was fixing to pick him up
and I usually picked him up around the corner there."
MR. FORD -- "Did this different method of him meeting you raise any
questions in your mind?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir, it didn't. I just thought maybe, you know, he
just left a little bit earlier, but when I looked up and saw that the
clock...I knew I was the one who was running a little bit late,
because...I was talking, sitting there eating breakfast and talking to
the little nieces, it was later than I thought it was."
MR. BALL -- "When you went out the back door, where was Oswald?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "He was standing just a few feet there outside the back
door there."
MR. BALL -- "He wasn't in the car?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir, he wasn't."
MR. BALL -- "Was he near the car?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir, he wasn't. You see, always I keep my car
parked outside the carport there, on the other side."
MR. BALL -- "He was just a few feet outside your back door when you
came out?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Right."
MR. BALL -- "Did you walk together to the car?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, we did."
--------------------------------------------------------------
MR. BALL -- "When you got in the car, did you say anything to him [Lee
Oswald] or did he say anything to you?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Let's see, when I got in the car, I have a kind of
habit of glancing over my shoulder, and so at that time I noticed
there was a package laying on the back seat. I didn't pay too much
attention and I said, "What's the package, Lee?" And he said, "Curtain
rods," and I said, "Oh, yes, you told me you was going to bring some
today." That is the reason, the main reason he was going over there
that Thursday afternoon when he was to bring back some curtain rods,
so I didn't think any more about it when he told me that."
MR. BALL -- "What did the package look like?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Well...it is right as you get out of the grocery
store, just more or less out of a package. You have seen some of these
brown paper sacks you can obtain from...most of the stores...but it
was a package just roughly about two feet long."
MR. BALL -- "What part of the back seat was it in?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "It was in his side, over on his side in the far back."
MR. BALL -- "How much of that back seat, how much space did it take
up?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "I would say roughly around two feet of the seat."
MR. BALL -- "From the side of the seat over to the center, is that the
way you would measure it?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "If you were going to measure it that way from the end
of the seat over toward the center, right. But...I just roughly estimate
and that would be around two feet, give and take [sic] a few inches."
MR. BALL -- "How wide was the package?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Well, I would say the package was about that wide."
MR. BALL -- "How wide would you say that would be?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Oh, say, around five inches, something like that.
Five, six inches."
MR. BALL -- "Was the color of the paper that you would get in a
grocery store, is that it, a bag in a grocery store?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Right. You have seen, not a real light color, but you
know normally, the normal color about the same color, you have seen
these kinds of heavy-duty bags, you know, like you obtain from the
grocery store, something like that, about the same color of that,
paper sack you get there."
MR. BALL -- "Was there anything more said about the paper sack on the
way into town?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir, there wasn't."
--------------------------------------------------------------
MR. BALL -- "What route did you take into town that day [11/22/63]?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "I told you I had two routes...Fifth Street runs into
Sixth after you cross the Storey Road there, so I just went on down
Sixth until I come to O'Connor, and then took a left on O'Connor and
it takes you right on out to Stemmons, and from there I went right on
into Stemmons and come up Commerce; and you go up Commerce there until
you hit Record Street, that is one block over from Houston, and then I
went down until I hit McKinney and then it goes right down to the
warehouse, and then take a left and you go right around to the parking
lot. ....
MR. BALL -- "Do you remember any conversation on the way in about
anything?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir. I asked him did he have fun playing with
them babies and he chuckled and said he did. .... It was a cloudy day
and it started misting." ....
MR. BALL -- "Was there anything said about the President coming to
Dallas that day?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir, it [sic] wasn't."
MR. BALL -- "Did he say anything about that the day before?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir."
MR. BALL -- "Did you ever have any conversation with him with
reference to the President's visit to Texas?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir."
MR. BALL -- "When you got to the parking lot, who got out of the car
first?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "He did."
MR. BALL -- "You didn't get out immediately then?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir; I was sitting there...looked at my watch...and
I saw we had a few minutes and I sat there. .... I was letting my engine
run and getting to charge up my battery, because when you stop and
start you have to charge up your battery."
MR. BALL -- "Did you have your lunch beside you?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir, I did."
--------------------------------------------------------------
Wesley Frazier re-creates ride to the TSBD:
--------------------------------------------------------------
MR. BALL -- "Did you notice whether or not Lee had a package that
looked like a lunch package that morning?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "You know like I told you earlier...he didn't take his
lunch because I remember right when I got in the car I asked him where
was his lunch and he said he was going to buy his lunch that day."
MR. BALL -- "He told you that that day, did he?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Right. That is right. So I assumed he was going to buy
it, you know, from that catering service man like a lot of the boys
do. They don't bring their lunch, but they go out and buy their lunch
there."
[DVP -- The above testimony of Frazier's is very important, because it
confirms the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald positively did not take his
lunch with him to work on the morning of President Kennedy's
assassination. And that fact is actually coming (indirectly) from
OSWALD'S OWN LIPS, because of these words spoken by Wes Frazier
in his Warren Commission testimony:
"I asked him where was his lunch and he said he was going to buy
his lunch that day."
So, when Oswald told the police after he was arrested that the only
package he carried into the Book Depository Building on 11/22/63 was
one that contained his "lunch", we know that that statement was a lie.
And that "lunch" lie was one of many lies told by Oswald after he was
apprehended in the Texas Theater shortly after LHO murdered Dallas
Police Officer J.D. Tippit in the Dallas suburb of Oak Cliff.]
--------------------------------------------------------------
MR. BALL -- "What did he do about the package in the back seat when he
got out of the car?" ....
MR. FRAZIER -- "He got out of the car and he was wearing the jacket
that has the big sleeves in them, and he put the package that he had,
you know, that he told me was curtain rods up under his arm. .... He
walked down behind the car and standing over there at the end of the
cyclone fence waiting for me to get out of the car; and so quick as I
cut the engine off and started out of the car, shut the door, just as
I was starting out, just like getting out of the car, he started
walking off and so I followed him in. ....
"He kept getting a little further ahead of me and I noticed we had
plenty of time to get there because it is not too far from the Depository
and usually I walk around and watch them switching the trains, because
you have to watch where you are going if you have to cross the tracks. ....
"So eventually he kept getting a little further ahead of me and by that
time we got down there pretty close to the Depository Building there,
I say, he would be as much as, I would say, roughly 50 feet in front of
me, but I didn't try to catch up with him because I knew I had plenty
of time, so I just took my time walking up there."
MR. BALL -- "Did you usually walk up there together?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir, we did."
MR. BALL -- "Is this the first time that he had ever walked ahead of you?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir." ....
MR. BALL -- "You say he had the package under his arm when you saw him?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir."
MR. BALL -- "You mean one end of it under the armpit?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir. He had it up just like you stick it right under
your arm like that. .... The other part with his right hand." ....
MR. BALL -- "He carried it, then, parallel to his body?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Right, straight up and down."
MR. FORD -- "Under his right arm?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir."
MR. BALL -- "Did it look to you as if there was something heavy in the
package?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Well, I will be frank with you, I didn't pay much
attention to the package, because...he told me that it was curtain
rods and I didn't pay any attention to it; and he never had lied to me
before, so I never did have any reason to doubt his word."
MR. BALL -- "Did it appear to you there was...more than just paper he
was carrying, some kind of a weight he was carrying?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Well, yes, sir. .... I worked in a department store
before and I had uncrated curtain rods when they come in, and I know
if you have seen when they come straight from the factory, you know
how they can bundle them up and put them in there pretty compact, so
he told me it was curtain rods, so I didn't think any more about the
package whatsoever."
MR. BALL -- "Well, from the way he carried it, the way he walked, did
it appear he was carrying something that had more than the weight of a
paper?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Well...I didn't pay much attention to the package
other than I knew he had it under his arm, and I didn't pay too much
attention the way he was walking because I was walking along there
looking at the railroad cars and watching the men on the diesel switch
them cars, and I didn't pay too much attention on how he carried the
package at all."
--------------------------------------------------------------
MR. BALL -- "This is Commission Exhibit Number 142. .... When you were
shown this bag, do you recall whether or not you told the officers who
showed you the bag--did you tell them whether you thought it was or
was not about the same length as the bag you saw on the back seat?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "I told them that as far as the length there, I told
them that was entirely too long."
MR. BALL -- "What about the width?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Well, I say, like I say now, now I couldn't see much
of the bag from him walking in front of me. Now he could have had some
of it sticking out in front of his hands because I didn't see it from
the front. The only time I did see it was from the back, just a little
strip running down from your arm and so therefore...I know that the
bag wouldn't be that long. So far as being that wide...I couldn't be
sure."
MR. BALL -- "It could have been that wide?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Right."
MR. BALL -- "Now, you said that some of the bag might have been beyond
his hands, did you say?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir. I said it could have, now I am not saying it
was."
MR. BALL -- "In other words, it could have been longer than his
hands?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Right."
MR. BALL -- "It has been suggested that you take this bag, which is
the colored bag, Commission Exhibit Number 142, and put it under your
arm just as a sample, or just to show about how he carried the bag."
MR. FRAZIER -- "Okay."
MR. BALL -- "Put it under your armpit."
MR. FRAZIER -- "Like that, normally your hand would come down like
that and you would say, you would have an item, like you have seen
people carry items, like they would be walking along and your arm
would come down like that, just like---"
MR. BALL -- "But are you sure that his hand was at the end of the
package or at the side of the package?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Like I said, I remember I didn't look at the package
very much, paying much attention, but when I did look at it he did
have his hands on the package like that."
MR. BALL -- "But you said a moment ago you weren't sure whether the
package was longer or shorter."
MR. FRAZIER -- "And his hands--because I couldn't see that about the
package."
MR. BALL -- "By that, do you mean that you don't know whether the
package extended beyond his hands?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "This way?"
MR. BALL -- "No--lengthwise, toward his feet."
MR. FRAZIER -- "No--now I don't mean that."
MR. BALL -- "What do you mean?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "What I was talking about, I said I didn't know where
it extended. It could have or couldn't have, out this way, widthwise
not lengthwise."
MR. BALL -- "In other words, you say it could have been wider than
your original estimate?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Right."
MR. BALL -- "But you don't think it was longer than his hands?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Right."
MR. BALL -- "How tall are you?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "I am 6-foot, a little bit over 6-foot."
MR. BALL -- "Do you know what your arm length is?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir, I don't."
MR. BALL -- "We can probably measure it before you leave. Did you ever
see Lee taking home anything with him from the Texas Book Depository
Building?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir, never did."
MR. BALL -- "Did you ever see him taking a package home with him?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir."
--------------------------------------------------------------
MR. BALL -- "Mr. Frazier, we have here this Exhibit Number 364, which
is a sack, and in that we have put a dismantled gun. .... Will you
stand up here and put this under your arm and then take a hold of it
at the side? Now, is that anywhere near similar to the way that Oswald
carried the package?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Well, you know, like I said...I didn't pay much
attention, but when I did...he had this part down here, like the
bottom would be short he had cupped in his hand like that and, say,
like walking from the back if you had a big arm jacket there you
wouldn't tell much from a package back there, the physical features.
If you could see it from the front, like when you walk and meet
somebody, you could tell about the package, but walking from behind
you couldn't tell much about the package whatsoever about the width.
But he didn't carry it from the back. If this package were shorter he
would have it cupped in his hands."
CHAIRMAN EARL WARREN -- "Could he have had the top of it behind his
shoulder, or are you sure it was cupped under his shoulder there?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, because the way it looked...he had it cupped in
his hand. .... And I don't see how you could have it anywhere other
than under your armpit, because if you had it cupped in your hand, it
would stick over it."
MR. BALL -- "Could he have carried it this way?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir. Never in front here--like that. Now, that is
what I was talking to you about. No, I say he couldn't, because if he
had you would have seen the package sticking up like that. From what I
seen walking behind, he had it under his arm and you couldn't tell
that he had a package from the back."
MR. BALL -- "When you cupped the bottom of your package in the hands,
will you stand up again, please, and the upper part of the package is
not under the armpit, the top of the package extends almost up to the
level of your ear...or your eye level; and when you put the package
under your armpit, the upper part of the package--and take ahold of
the side of it with your right hand--it extends on approximately about
eight inches, about the span of my hand, more than eight inches--
eight, ten inches."
[DVP -- In June of 1967, the CBS Television Network aired a special four-part news program entitled "A CBS News Inquiry: The Warren Report", in which Dan Rather of CBS News shows the viewers a package that contains a disassembled Mannlicher-Carcano rifle just like Lee Oswald's. Mr. Rather then puts the 34.8-inch-long package in his cupped right hand, turns his back toward the camera, and begins walking toward the Book Depository Building. Dan Rather then speaks these words:
"You can decide whether [Wesley] Frazier, walking some fifty feet behind and, in his own words, not paying much attention, might have missed the few inches of the narrow end of such a package sticking up past Oswald's shoulder."]
--------------------------------------------------------------
MR. BALL -- "Now when he went in the [back] door [of the Book
Depository] you were about 50 feet behind him?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Right. The last time I saw him, I was...coming across
these railroad tracks, and I just happened to glance up and see him
going through the door there and shut the door."
MR. BALL -- "The last time you saw him, he was at the door?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Right."
[DVP -- Frazier's Warren Commission testimony does not reveal whether or not Frazier physically saw Oswald carry the brown paper package inside the back entrance of the Texas School Book Depository Building as Oswald entered the building on the morning of November 22nd.
But Frazier's November 22, 1963, signed affidavit does include that important additional detail:
"I saw him [Lee Harvey Oswald] go in the back door at the Loading Dock of the building that we work in, and he still had the package under his arm." -- Buell Wesley Frazier; 11/22/63]
--------------------------------------------------------------
MR. BALL -- "During the morning, you say you saw Oswald around filling
orders?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir, I did."
MR. BALL -- "Were you on the sixth floor any that morning?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "One time--just a few seconds." ....
MR. BALL -- "Do you remember the names of any workmen you saw on the
sixth floor that morning?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "I believe Billy was up there--Billy Lovelady." ....
MR. BALL -- "Did you see Oswald on the sixth floor any time that
morning?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir."
--------------------------------------------------------------
MR. BALL -- "Now, you knew that the President was going to pass that
building sometime that morning, didn't you?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Well, I heard he would."
MR. BALL -- "Did you talk to some of the men around there about it?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir, I didn't."
[DVP -- Frazier's above "No, sir, I didn't" answer strikes me as quite
remarkable under the circumstances. Wesley knows that the President is
going to be driving right by his place of employment that Friday, and
yet the subject of this once-in-a-lifetime event for most of the
Depository workers (including Wesley Frazier) never once comes up
during Frazier's normal work day on the morning of President Kennedy's
motorcade through downtown Dallas, Texas. Incredible. ~shrug~]
--------------------------------------------------------------
MR. BALL -- "What time did you knock off for lunch?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Twelve."
MR. BALL -- "Did you eat your lunch?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir, not right then I didn't. .... He [JFK] was
supposed to come by during our lunch hour, so you don't get very many
chances to see the President of the United States...I went out there
to see him and just like everybody else...I was standing on the steps
there and watched for the parade to come by; and so I did and I stood
there until he come by."
MR. BALL -- "You went out there after you quit work?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Right, for lunch."
MR. BALL -- "About 12 o'clock?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Right." ....
MR. BALL -- "Did you go out there with somebody?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir, I did. .... I stayed around there pretty
close to Mr. Shelley and this boy, Billy Lovelady...just talking about
how pretty a day it turned out to be, because I told you earlier it
was an old cloudy and misty day and then it didn't look like it was
going to be a pretty day at all."
MR. BALL -- "And it turned out to be a good day?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Pretty sunshiny day."
MR. BALL -- "Warm?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir, it was pretty warm."
MR. BALL -- "Then, let's see, there was Billy Lovelady and you were
there. .... Anybody else you can remember?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked
upstairs there whose name is Sarah something. I don't know her last
name."
MR. BALL -- "Were you near the steps?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir, I was. I was standing about, I believe, one
step down from the top there."
MR. BALL -- "One step down from the top of the steps?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir -- standing there by the rail."
MR. BALL -- "By steps, we are talking about the steps of the entrance
to the Building?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir."
MR. BALL -- "Shown in this picture?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir."
MR. BALL -- "Which is Commission's Exhibit Number 362. Can you come
over here and show us about where you were standing?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir. .... We have a bar rail running about half
way up here. This was the first step and I was standing right around
there."
MR. BALL -- "Put a mark there. Your name is Frazier, put an F there
for Frazier."
MR. FRAZIER -- "Okay."
--------------------------------------------------------------
MR. BALL -- "Did you see the President go by?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir, I did."
MR. BALL -- "Did you hear anything?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Right after he went by, he hadn't hardly got by, I
heard a sound, and if you have ever been around motorcycles you know
how they backfire, and so I thought one of them motorcycles backfired
because right before his car came down...there were several of these
motorcycle policemen, and they took off down toward the underpass down
there, and so I thought, you know, that one of them motorcycles
backfired. But it wasn't just a few seconds that, you know, I heard
two more of the same type of, you know, sounds, and by that time
people was running everywhere and falling down and screaming, and
naturally then I knew something was wrong, and so I come to the
conclusion somebody else, somebody was shooting at somebody and I
figured it was him."
MR. BALL -- "You figured it was who?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "I figured it was somebody shooting at President
Kennedy because people were running and hollering, so I just stood
still. I have always been taught when something like that
happened...it is always best to stand still, because if you run that
makes you look guilty sure enough."
MR. BALL -- "Now, then, did you have any impression at that time as to
the direction from which the sound came?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Well, to be frank with you, I thought it come from
down there, you know, where that underpass is. There is a series...of
them railroad tracks running together and from where I was standing it
sounded like it was coming from down the railroad tracks there."
MR. BALL -- "Were you able to see the President, could you still see
the President's car when you heard the first sound?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir, I couldn't. From there, you know, people were
standing out there on the curb, you see, and you know it drops, you
know the ground drops, off there as you go down toward that underpass
and I couldn't see any of it because people were standing up there in
my way. But, however, when he did turn that corner there, there wasn't
anybody standing there in the street and you could see good there; but
after you got on past down there, you couldn't see anything."
MR. BALL -- "You didn't see the President's car at the time you heard
the sound?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir, I didn't."
MR. BALL -- "But you stood right there, did you?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Right. Stood right where I was."
MR. BALL -- "And Mr. Shelley was still standing there?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Right."
MR. BALL -- "And also Billy Lovelady?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir."
MR. BALL -- "The three of you didn't go anyplace?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "I believe Billy and them walked down toward that
direction, but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at
all."
MR. BALL -- "Did you see anybody after that come into the building
while you were there?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "You mean somebody other--that didn't work there?"
MR. BALL -- "A police officer."
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir. I stood there a few minutes...and it wasn't
but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so
forth all over the building there."
[DVP -- It's hard to believe that Frazier could have missed seeing
Dallas police motorcycle officer Marrion L. Baker rush into the
building, because Baker dashed into the Book Depository no more than
one minute after the last gunshot was fired at President Kennedy. And
Baker definitely used the front entrance of the Depository; so Baker
would have almost certainly have had to brush right past Buell Wesley
Frazier on the front steps as he entered the building.]
--------------------------------------------------------------
MR. BALL -- "Then you went back into the building, did you?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Right."
MR. BALL -- "And police officers came in there?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir." ....
MR. BALL -- "Did you stay on the first floor?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Well, stayed on the first floor there for a few
minutes and I hadn't eaten my lunch, so I had my lunch down there in
the basement. .... Naturally I felt like eating and I walked around
the bin and walked down the steps there. .... I was sitting eating my
lunch. I looked at my watch and didn't have but ten minutes, so I
naturally ate faster than normal, so I was eating a couple of
sandwiches, and eat an apple or something and come right back up and
the guys, the people who worked there, standing around on the first
floor, some of them eating their lunches and others merely talking."
[DVP -- The above testimony is absolutely incredible, IMO. Wesley
Frazier hears gunfire in Dealey Plaza, and he knows the President of
the United States has probably just been shot (almost right in front
of his own eyes).
So what does Wesley feel like doing almost immediately after this
horrifying, awful event has taken place within a stone's throw from
where he was standing? -- He feels like going to the basement of the
Book Depository Building to eat his lunch! And, per Frazier's
testimony, other Depository employees felt like doing the exact same
thing--they wanted to eat their lunch immediately after the tragedy!
Unbelievable!]
--------------------------------------------------------------
MR. BALL -- "You never went back to work?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir, we didn't. I didn't work any more that day."
MR. BALL -- "You stayed there on the job until you were told to go
home?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir." ....
MR. BALL -- "Had the police officers come in there and talked to you?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir. They come in and talked to all of us. They
asked us to show our proper identification, and then they had us to
write our name down and who to get in touch with if they wanted to see
us."
MR. BALL -- "Did they ask you where you had been at the time the
President passed?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir, they had. I told them I was out on the steps
there."
MR. BALL -- "Asked you who you were with?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir. I told them and, naturally, Mr. Shelley and
Billy [Lovelady] vouched for me, and so they didn't think anything
about it."
MR. BALL -- "Did you hear anybody around there asking for Lee Oswald?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir, I didn't."
--------------------------------------------------------------
MR. FORD -- "Did it ever occur to you at any time following the shooting
there was something connecting the shooting with Lee Oswald and
the package?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Well...not particularly--not at that time, I didn't
think anything about it." ....
MR. FORD -- "Did any of the policemen interfere with your efforts to
go into the building and eventually down into the basement where you
had your lunch?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir, they didn't."
MR. BALL -- "Before you left, did you look for Oswald to see about
taking him home?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, I didn't, sir."
MR. BALL -- "Was there some reason why you didn't?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir. .... Because like I told you, he was going
home to get the curtain rods and I asked him at the time...would he be
going home with me Friday afternoon like he had been doing. He said
no. So naturally when they let us go, I took on off because I thought
maybe they had already dismissed him and he went on home."
MR. BALL -- "When you talked to him on Thursday and he told you he
wouldn't be going home on Friday, did he tell you what he was going to
do, why he wasn't going to go home?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir, he didn't."
MR. BALL -- "Did you talk to him again on Friday morning as to whether
or not he had changed his mind? Did you ask him whether or not you
could pick him up at the end of the day?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "To be frank with you, Mr. Ball, I am not sure."
--------------------------------------------------------------
MR. BALL -- "I have here Commission's 163, a gray blue jacket. Do
you recognize this jacket?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir, I don't."
MR. BALL -- "Did you ever see Lee Oswald wear this jacket?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir, I don't believe I have, because most time I
noticed when Lee had it, I say he put off his shirt and just wear a T-
shirt the biggest part of the time. So really what shirt he wore that
day, I really didn't see it or didn't pay enough attention to it--
whether he did have a shirt on."
MR. BALL -- "On that day, you did notice one article of clothing, that
is, he had a jacket?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir."
MR. BALL -- "What color was the jacket?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type
of jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he
had on that morning."
MR. BALL -- "Did it have a zipper on it?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir. It was one of the zipper types." ....
MR. BALL -- "Do you know what kind of trousers he had on, what color?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Not that day, I don't remember."
--------------------------------------------------------------
MR. BALL -- "Take a look at this paper bag, which is Commission Exhibit 364
for identification, with reference to the width. Was the bag about that
width or a different width?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Well, I would say it appears to me it would be pretty
close but it might be just a little bit too wide. I think it is,
because you know yourself you would have to have a big hand with that
size, but like I say he had this cupped in his hand because I remember
glancing at him when he was a walking up ahead of me."
MR. BALL -- "This is another bag here which has been marked
Commission's Exhibit 142. .... This was shown to you before, wasn't
it, in Dallas?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir, it was."
MR. BALL -- "You were asked if you had seen this before, weren't you?
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir, I was."
MR. BALL -- "When you first saw it, you felt that the bag you saw was
of a different color, didn't you?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Right...they told me this one had been treated in the
lab."
MR. BALL -- "If you will note there is a part of this bag which has
not been treated."
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes."
MR. BALL -- "So I will show you this part of this exhibit that hasn't
been treated. .... We are talking about the colored bag, the one that
has changed its color. There is a part of the colored bag that hasn't
changed color, isn't it?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Right."
MR. BALL -- "That is the part I want to call your attention to. ....
The color of this bag, the colored bag, has not been treated. Take a
look at it. Is that similar to the color of the bag you saw in the
back seat of your car that morning?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "It would be, surely it could have been, and it
couldn't have been. Like I say, see, you know this color, either one
of these colors, is very similar to the type of paper that you can get
out of a store or anything like that, and so I say it could have been
and then it couldn't have been."
[DVP -- The above words spoken by Buell Wesley Frazier provide just
one example (among many) of Mr. Frazier's odd way of phrasing things.
His rambling and sometimes incoherent speech patterns were probably
driving Warren Commission questioner Joe Ball a little batty during
the course of Frazier's testimony.]
--------------------------------------------------------------
MR. BALL -- "Do you mean by that, that it is similar to the color?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Right."
MR. BALL -- "And do you have a definite memory of the color of the bag
you saw on the back seat of your car so that you can distinguish
between one color and another?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "I believe it would be more on this basis here."
MR. BALL -- "You say it would be more on the color of bag Number 364,
is that right?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Right."
--------------------------------------------------------------
CHAIRMAN EARL WARREN -- "Did he [Lee Oswald] have any particular
associates around there that you knew of?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Not that I knew of. I say he didn't mingle with other
guys like the rest of us. The rest of us usually joked back and forth
with practically everybody who worked around there. But he usually
kept to himself, that was the only time he talked to anybody was when
he wanted to know something about a book or something like that."
MR. BALL -- "We have got a picture taken the day of the parade and it
shows the President's car going by [the famous James Altgens photo].
Now, take a look at that picture. Can you see your picture anyplace
there?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir, I don't; because I was back up in this more-
or-less black area here. .... Billy [Lovelady]...is two or three steps
down in front of me."
MR. BALL -- "Do you recognize this fellow?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "That is Billy, that is Billy Lovelady." ....
MR. BALL -- "Let's take a marker and make an arrow down that way. That
mark is Billy Lovelady?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Right."
MR. BALL -- "That is where you told us you were standing a moment
ago."
MR. FRAZIER -- "Right."
MR. BALL -- "In front of you to the right over to the wall?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes."
MR. BALL -- "Is this a Commission exhibit? We will make this a
Commission Exhibit -- Number 369. That is written in. The arrow marks
Billy Lovelady on Commission's Exhibit Number 369."
--------------------------------------------------------------
MR. WARREN -- "Well, that will be all. Thank you very much for coming
and testifying before the Commission."
MR. FRAZIER -- "Thank you, Mr. Warren."
--------------------------------------------------------------
David Von Pein
May 2009
July 2010
RELATED VIDEOS AND LINKS:
WESLEY FRAZIER'S TESTIMONY AT THE 1986
DOCU-TRIAL, "ON TRIAL: LEE HARVEY OSWALD":
2002 INTERVIEW:
BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER'S TESTIMONY
AT THE 1969 CLAY SHAW TRIAL
SOME QUESTIONS FOR
BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER
===============================
