ORLANDO MARTIN
(PART 2)


DEBATING THE MERITS OF ORLANDO MARTIN'S
2010 BOOK, "JFK: ANALYSIS OF A SHOOTING"


---------------------------------------------------------------





The following debate excerpts originated at Amazon.com. The complete discussion can be found HERE.

---------------------------------------------------------------

ON JULY 7, 2010, DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Orlando Martin made an appearance on Len Osanic's "Black Op Radio"
Internet program on June 24, 2010, to promote his book. [You can listen to
the show HERE.]

Orlando has so many things wrong, it's hard to know where to begin. But by far the biggest laugh is this one: Orlando actually thinks that John Connally's pre-operative X-rays are "missing" and have been "destroyed". And--get this!--he also thinks the Warren Commission never even saw (or paid attention to) any of the Connally X-rays.

Apparently Mr. Martin is totally unaware that all of Connally's X-rays were each given separate exhibit numbers by the Warren Commission and are all available to view in WC Volume #17. Here's just one example, a Connally pre-surgery wrist X-ray, CE690:

http://history-matters.com/CE 690/Vol. 17/Page 347

And evidently Mr. Martin is also totally unaware of the fact that Connally's doctors examined JBC's X-rays in front of the Warren Commission during their WC testimony! So, of course, the Warren Commission saw them and made proper use of them.

After hearing Martin talk about the insane notion that Connally's X-rays have been "destroyed", I realize there's no need to really debunk his theories any further, since it's quite obvious that Orlando doesn't have the slightest idea what he's talking about when he talks about JFK's assassination, but just for the fun of it, I took the time to debunk lots more of Orlando Martin's conspiracy nonsense at THIS WEBPAGE.

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID (IN RESPONSE TO
THIS POST):

Why in the world would anyone defend Orlando Martin's non-stop nonsense and misinformation after reading what I posted above? You'd be better off betting on a dead horse.

Face it, Mr. Martin just flat-out made up a whole bunch of crap in order to promote a conspiracy book. Simple as that.

And Martin's laughable tripe about Connally's X-rays being "destroyed" and how those X-rays "were never even looked at by the Warren Commission" [Martin's exact quote from this July 5, 2010, Amazon.com post] should make any sensible person realize that this author named Orlando is apparently residing in The Twilight Zone when it comes to the JFK murder case.

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID (IN RESPONSE TO THIS POST):

I'm not going to rehash every aspect of the JFK case in this Amazon forum. Look up my comments in my blogs if you're interested. It's all there. But I'm not typing it all out again here.

Although one thing you won't find in any of my blogs is the stupid theory about JFK having a wound in his CHEST. I've never once heard anybody theorize anything that stupid. So, Mr. Martin is breaking new ground there. Not even the kookiest of conspiracy nuts believe that Kennedy had an exit wound in his chest.

Also -- I wonder how Martin was able to get that bullet exiting JFK's CHEST on a 45-degree downward trajectory (!!), per Martin's theory, to end up hitting John Connally in the UPPER part of his back?

Now THERE'S a magic bullet indeed.

No worries, though, I'm sure Mr. Martin has just invented some more of his own evidence to cover this impossibility. And other conspiracy nuts will be ready and eager to lap it up off the stoop -- like Ralph Cinque.

Besides, your comments didn't address the main issue regarding Orlando Martin that I was discussing in my earlier message.

You seem to still want to support someone (Martin) who obviously doesn't know what he's talking about at all, as I have easily proven via official documents that I have supplied at this blog address.

------------------------------------------------------------------

RALPH CINQUE SAID:

The Single Bullet Theory...depends on a connection between the back wound and that tiny little hole in Kennedy's neck. They could have found it--during the autopsy or after the autopsy--if it was there. And that omission screams COVER-UP! COVER UP! COVER-UP!

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID:

The throat wound was obliterated by Dr. Malcolm Perry's tracheotomy that was done at Parkland Hospital, Ralph. How were Humes and Company supposed to find a wound that was obliterated at Parkland?

------------------------------------------------------------------

ORLANDO MARTIN SAID:

I could tell you that as a country we have not yet seen Connally's pre-surgery X-rays, and that complete and unquestionable fakes were admitted into the record.

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID:

Yeah, that's what I predicted in my blog post about you, Orlando. I knew you'd probably say that ALL of John Connally's pre-op X-rays are "fakes". Thanks for not disappointing me.

Whenever a conspiracy theorist doesn't like the evidence as it is, it's always "fake".

Pathetic.

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID:

Author Orlando Martin's assumption that Governor Connally was seated to the RIGHT of President Kennedy in the limousine when the assassination occurred is nothing but more hogwash from a conspiracy nut who wants to rewrite the history of JFK's death.

Kennedy was jammed as far to the RIGHT in his seat as humanly possible throughout the motorcade, but Martin wants to pretend that JFK "had moved closer to Jackie" [Martin's quote from 7/8/10].

IOW--Martin is just making stuff up, as all conspiracists always do.

It was determined by the Warren Commission, the HSCA, as well as Dale Myers' excellent 3D computer work, that Connally was located several inches to the LEFT of President Kennedy when the shooting occurred.

Myers' work is synched to the Zapruder Film itself. Naturally, all CTers think Myers is a fraud and a liar. No surprise there. They don't like Dale's SBT conclusions. But that's tough. The SBT is obviously true, and CE399 was deemed by BOTH the Warren Commission and the House Select Committee On Assassinations to be THE EXACT BULLET that traversed the bodies of both JFK & JBC.

Naturally, that determination by BOTH of the Govt. investigations means zilch to conspiracy theorists. I guess not only did the WC blow it, but the HSCA (with totally DIFFERENT people on that committee) totally blew it too, per CTers.

Dale Myers proves the SBT here:
http://JFKFiles.com

The SBT & Common Sense:
http://Single-Bullet-Theory.blogspot.com

------------------------------------------------------------------

ORLANDO MARTIN SAID:

Mr. Von Pein: In fact they all are [Martin is saying here, incredibly, that he believes that ALL of Connally's X-rays are fakes]. That is no secret. But more prominently so is the pre-op chest X-ray of Connally, where this otherwise highly destructive bullet, after shattering the governor's fifth rib on the anterior portion, conviniently [sic] forgot to leave even a single fragment. How ridiculous! Yet it remembered to leave fragments in his right wrist and his left thigh. The same bullet! How irrational!

Mr. Von Pein, only verifiable fools would believe such a fable. And that is what the Warren Commission told our entire country. It does not say much for the Commission. Does it[?] Were we to believe it, what would that say about us as country? Foolish!

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID:

Orlando,

Why are you totally ignoring this testimony of Dr. Robert Shaw, who was the surgeon in charge of Governor Connally's chest wounds?:

ARLEN SPECTER -- "Was any metallic substance from the bullet left in the thoracic cage as a result of the passage of the bullet through the Governor's body?"

DR. ROBERT SHAW -- "No. We saw no evidence of any metallic material in the X-ray that we had of the chest, and we found none during the operation."

------------------------------------------------------------------

RALPH CINQUE SAID:

The only thing that matters is Connally's position relative to Kennedy in the Zapruder film. It's the only thing we have to go on. Certainly not some pictures taken earlier. And in the Zapruder film, Connally definitely looks to being right of Kennedy.

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID:

I've gotta give Orlando Martin credit -- he's come up with three brand-new silly theories I've never once heard ANY conspiracy theorist previously try to peddle:

1.) JFK had a bullet hole in his chest.

2.) Connally's X-rays are fakes.

3.) Connally was sitting to the RIGHT of President Kennedy in the limo.

All three of those theories are, of course, just plain wrong. But that won't stop a conspiracist named Orlando from attempting to rewrite history.

It's virtually impossible, btw, to tell the exact positioning of Connally's body in relation to Kennedy's in the Zapruder Film, because Abraham Zapruder wasn't filming from IN FRONT OF or BEHIND the car. All we see is a lateral, from-the-side view.

But, as I said before, Dale Myers' exemplary 3D computer animation has been
KEY FRAMED and locked in to the Z-Film itself. And here's a view of the car from Oswald's Sniper's Nest at Zapruder Film frame 223. And Connally is positively to JFK's left:



------------------------------------------------------------------

RALPH CINQUE SAID:

OH MY GOSH! You have the nerve to submit that cartoon and say that it's more accurate than the Zapruder film? You have got to be kidding.

And you are being very foolish. Zapruder did NOT have to shoot from in front of or behind the car to enable us to judge position. You are embarrassing yourself, Man!

Look, I stopped the Zapruder film right when the car emerges from behind the freeway sign. You can do the same. Freeze it and compare their positions. You can easily see that Connally is to the right of Kennedy [Mr. Cinque is nuts when he says this, of course]. And it's the perfect place to do it because Kennedy has got his hands up to his neck, so he's been shot. The bullet has gone through him and into Connally, and the trajectory is obviously left to right.

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID:

No, the trajectory through JFK and Connally is not "obviously left to right".

And why do you think you know more than the Warren Commission and the HSCA?

"By a vote of 15 to 1, the [HSCA Photographic] Panel determined that the relative alinement of President Kennedy and Governor Connally in the limousine was consistent with the single bullet theory." -- HSCA; Volume 6; Page 16

Also see 6 HSCA 49, which says that "Kennedy was seated close to the right-hand, inside surface of the car...Connally, on the other hand, was seated well within the car on the jump seat ahead of Kennedy." -- 6 HSCA 49

BTW, did you hear me when I said that Myers' "cartoon" (as you call it) was KEY FRAMED to the Zapruder Film?

Let me guess: you think that Dale K. Myers is a rotten liar, right Ralph?

------------------------------------------------------------------

RALPH CINQUE SAID:

Don't quote me anything from the HSCA. .... It's a political committee whose purpose was to appease the masses, who at the time were riled up because of the movie JFK.

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID:

This one from Ralph is a real screamer. Ralph thinks the HSCA performed its investigation AFTER Oliver Stone's movie "JFK" was released. Hilarious.

Stone's movie premiered in December 1991.
The HSCA disbanded in January 1979.

(Oh, my weak bladder!)

------------------------------------------------------------------

RALPH CINQUE SAID:

The unaltered Zapruder film does not lie.

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID:

You mean to tell me that a conspiracy-loving kook like you actually thinks the Zapruder Film that's in existence today is an "unaltered" film??

That's remarkable! Maybe miracles are possible.

------------------------------------------------------------------

ORLANDO MARTIN SAID:

Mr. Pein [sic], Mr. Pein [sic], Mr. Pein [sic; ~sigh~]:

I know that you are basically employed by our government, and as such, have to sometimes support irrational theories, and also let out a lie or two. [Oh, good! Another kook who thinks I'm employed by the Government! Excellent, Orlando!] There are those that often profit from supporting terrible lies. I know that as far as the truth goes regarding the assassination, you have to have far more common sense than that.

[...]

Please realize this: "JFK: Analysis of a Shooting" no longer belongs to me. It now belongs to the American people. [I PITY THE PEOPLE WHO READ IT.] I offer it to them. I wrote it for them, and not for Bugliosi or people like you that stand to benefit from an atrocious lie. [WHAT A KOOK.] And someday, perhaps when we are ready to face the terrible truth; the book will prevail.

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID:

All we need now is a box of tissues to dry our eyes and some soft violin music to accompany the above batch of garbage spewed forth by Orlando "Connally's X-rays Are Missing" Martin.

Talk about lies. The one about Connally's X-rays is a beaut. But Mr. Martin doesn't give a damn that he's lying through his teeth about Connally's X-rays. And he knows it's a big fat lie. There are no X-rays missing, nor have any of them been "destroyed". But Martin feels he needs to lie about the evidence because he's got a conspiracy kookbook to sell.

Reasonable people, however, will see through Martin's unsupportable tripe and dismiss his theories as simply more conspiracy garbage that is best suited for a trash dumpster -- a la David Lifton, James Fetzer, John Armstrong, Jim Marrs, Robert Groden, and Jim Garrison (et al).

------------------------------------------------------------------

ORLANDO MARTIN SAID:

As I have stated to you previously Mr. Pein [sic], our country never saw the real pre-surgery X-rays of Connally's wounds. The real X-rays were destroyed because they showed the truth. .... Instead we were presented verifiable fakes.

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID:

What a kook. You're verifiably certifiable, Orlando.

------------------------------------------------------------------

RALPH CINQUE SAID:

OK Pein [sic], we get it that you disapprove of disputing the authenticity of Connally's X-rays, although I agree with Orlando that they're about as pristine as the magic bullet.

But why so quiet about the doctored Zapruder film? Did you watch it? Did you see all that fancy editing? You can't keep saying the same thing over and over about the X-rays without sounding evasive. You're like a broken record.

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID:

Now, wait a minute here. You said in an earlier post, "the unaltered Zapruder film does not lie". But now you're claiming that the Z-Film has been "doctored" and contains a bunch of "fancy editing"??

Which is it? You can't have it both ways. You can't possibly say that YOU YOURSELF have been privy to both an "unaltered" Zapruder Film and one that's been "doctored". Is that what you're saying, Ralph? Sure kinda sounds that way.

Anyway, the Zapruder Film has most certainly not been "doctored". Nor COULD it possibly have been altered/doctored. Abraham Zapruder was in constant personal possession of the film through Saturday morning, November 23rd.

Only super-kooks think the Z-Film was altered.

It's also interesting to note that for years the Z-Film was the #1 thing that led people to believe in a conspiracy (via the rear head snap) -- but now apparently the rear head snap is part of an ALTERED AND/OR FABRICATED Zapruder film.

Talk about convoluted.

Any idea, Ralph, WHY the film-fakers decided to leave in the rear head snap after faking the film to (presumably) remove all visual signs of a second gunman?

Good luck answering that one.

You should get Richard Trask's Zapruder Film book, "National Nightmare On Six Feet Of Film". It alone provides ample proof that the Z-Film was not (and could not have been) altered.

My last name is not just Pein, btw.

------------------------------------------------------------------

RALPH "MR. KOOK" CINQUE GUSHED:

No, you pea-brain. God, you are dense. They weren't Houdini! They couldn't change anything and everything. The Zapruder film was bought by Life Magazine right after the assassination, and they definitely altered it. There isn't even any doubt about it. Orlando [Martin] has seen both versions of it. [LOL! I love this lie here!] No, of course, they couldn't change everything. They changed what they could. And the main thing was the timing. They had to speed it up so that the major stoppage--to set Kennedy up--isn't evident.

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID [WHILE HOPING MY WEAK BLADDER WILL HOLD OUT]:

Yeah, why would they want to take out that rear head snap? After all, it's only the #1 thing in the film that still--to this very day--makes people shout "Conspiracy!"

Just like Orlando Martin, Ralph Cinque doesn't have a clue.

But I congratulate you on yet another brand-new theory (I sure have never heard a kook utter this before anyway):

"Life Magazine...definitely altered it [the Zapruder Film]." -- Ralph Cinque; 7/9/10

This series of Amazon comments now pert-near has more new unsupportable JFK theories than all five volumes of Douglas P. Horne's imaginative ravings.

Next up on Cinque's and Martin's Kook Channel -- Dr. Robert Shaw was part of the conspiracy and cover-up.

In fact, Orlando Martin has no choice BUT to believe Dr. Shaw contributed mightily to a cover-up, given these words Shaw said to the Warren Commission in 1964:

DR. ROBERT SHAW -- "We saw no evidence of any metallic material in the X-ray that we had of the chest [of Governor Connally], and we found none during the operation."

------------------------------------------------------------------

RALPH CINQUE SAID:

I thank David Von Pein for acknowledging the damning effect of the back/left head snap on the WC case. You're right, it's devestating [sic].

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID:

The head snap to the rear is not "devastating" to the Warren Commission's lone-assassin conclusion at all. And I never said the head snap to the rear was devastating. I said it was the #1 thing that has convinced so many people that a shot hit JFK from the Grassy Knoll.

But evidently Mr. Cinque doesn't realize that at the critical MOMENT OF IMPACT, President Kennedy's head moves FORWARD, not backward. This super-slo-mo clip below is the best you'll ever see to illustrate what conspiracy theorists never ever talk about: the head snapping FORWARD between Z312 and Z313, i.e., at the crucial moment when Lee Harvey Oswald's bullet strikes JFK's head:



Ralph will probably say that the above clip has been "doctored" too.

But it won't do him any good, because the Itek Corporation did a study of the Zapruder frames in 1975 and concluded that JFK's head was pushed forward about 2 inches at Z313.

But, then too, maybe Itek Corporation is part of the wide-sweeping and all-encompassing "cover-up" too, eh Ralph?

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID:

Since you brought up Senator Ralph Yarborough [in this post], let's take a closer look at a few of the things he said (in an affidavit he filled out on July 10, 1964, linked HERE):

"The motorcade slowed to what seemed to me a complete stop (though it could have been a near stop). .... I heard three shots and no more. All seemed to come from my right rear." -- Ralph W. Yarborough; 07/10/64

So, as we can see, Senator Yarborough heard exactly THREE SHOTS ("and no more"), and the Senator was of the impression that all of the shots came from his "right rear" (i.e., in the direction of the Texas School Book Depository Building).

Yeah, he's some great conspiracy witness, isn't he, Mr. Cinque?

------------------------------------------------------------------

RALPH CINQUE SAID:

The Zapruder film is just still pictures taken in succession. That thing you sent [THIS] claims to be frames 311 to 316. But here is 311 as a still frame. And there is a "Next frame" button. So you can study it, even measure it and mark it if you want to, and then click to the next frame, and so on. I defy anyone to say that the motion in your clip is duplicated by looking at the Zapruder stills in succession. Do I question the veracity of your thing? Of course! It may be based on the Zapruder film, but it is NOT the Zapruder film, and only a fool would accept it as such.

[...]

Besides, in your clip, you can still see clearly that the bullet is hitting forward on his head in a spot that couldn't possibly be reached by someone shooting from behind him. [LOL break here! The kook named Ralph seems to think just like Jim DiEugenio does--i.e., he thinks the large EXIT wound at the front of JFK's head must represent the ENTRY point for the assassin's bullet. Crazy!] Notice also that the forward motion of his head starts BEFORE the shot goes off. [More kooky nonsense here. No such thing happens in the slow-motion clip I provided.] I reject what you sent--with extreme prejudice.

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID:

Yeah, as predicted, Cinque thinks the gif clip of the Zapuder Film frames is a hoax.

BTW, the place from where I initially downloaded that excellent Z-Film slo-mo clip is none other than the conspiracy website run by Wim Dankbaar (the kook who thinks James Files killed Kennedy with a Fireball pistol from the Grassy Knoll, with Files then placing his teeth marks in the shell casing and leaving it on the fence in Dealey Plaza for the police to find).

BTW, note how Cinque ignores the 1975 Itek tests--whereby Itek proved scientifically that President Kennedy's head moves FORWARD at the moment of impact between Z312 and Z313.

And when watching the real-time Z-Film, I can see JFK's head rock forward at Z313. It's not easy to detect in real time, but you can do it. Just watch it over and over.

As for Yarborough, I guess Cinque must think he lied his ass off in his July '64 affidavit when Yarborough said "THREE SHOTS" and "RIGHT REAR".

Right, Ralph?

------------------------------------------------------------------

RALPH CINQUE SAID:

No, I do not think that Yarborough lied about three shots and right rear. But I also don't think he lied when he said the car stopped.

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID:

Everybody knows the limo almost stopped. The Nix film proves that fact very easily. And so does the Zapruder film.

So what? What's that fact supposed to prove?

(Awaiting Cinque's theory about how driver William Greer deliberately slowed the limo to make the kill shot easier for the assassins. Don't disappoint me now, Ralphie my boy.)

------------------------------------------------------------------

RALPH CINQUE SAID:

That's during the shooting that the car almost stopped. You speed up when shots go off, that is, if your goal is to save human life. Do I really have to explain that to you?

Besides, now that you have admitted that "the car almost stopped", show me in the Zapruder film where the car almost stops. Why don't we see it? It's all one steady, continuous motion until the car accelerates at the end. They took out the stopping. That's what they doctored. There may be other things they doctored, but they definitely doctored that.

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID:

The "limo slow down" is noticeable in the Zapruder Film. Granted, it is more difficult to detect the limo's slowing down in the Z-Film, as opposed to the Nix Film, because the limo takes up Mr. Zapruder's entire frame, left to right (not counting the sprocket holes in the "widescreen" versions of the film, that is), but the slowing down of the car is definitely noticeable. It's not my fault you can't see it.

Here, try again, with this stabilized version of the Zapruder Film linked below.

Note--this version below has been slowed down slightly. It's not in "real time" here, but the slowing of the limo around the time of the head shot can still be discerned.

And since this is a "widescreen" version, with the images between the sprocket holes visible, you can even see the police motorcycle start to OVERTAKE the limousine on the far left side of the film frame, which is perfectly consistent with what we see in the Nix Film and is perfectly consistent with the limousine slowing down, allowing the police motorcycle to CATCH UP to the limo right around the time of the head shot:

The Zapruder Film: A Stabilized Version

------------------------------------------------------------------

RALPH CINQUE SAID:

No freaking' way! That car was moving along steadily throughout. Yarborough said it came to a "complete stop" or at least a "near-stop". Nothing close to that occurs in the Zapruder film you sent. Why don't you watch it again, and this time notice that not during the head shot nor at any other time does the car come to a "complete stop" or "near stop."

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID:

You're wrong, Ralph. I can detect the limo slowing down. And the motorcycle is overtaking the limo.

You must think the cycle is speeding up, instead of the limo slowing down, right?

------------------------------------------------------------------

ORLANDO MARTIN SAID:

Mr. Von Pein,

It is widely known that the car almost stopped while shots were being fired at the president. Many witnesses at the Plaza declared that they had seen the brake lights on the limousine come on. Of course the Commission did not include any of this testimony in their Report.

The key question is: Why did the car slow down when shots were being fired at the president? Yes, as Ralph [Cinque] stated, it was certainly so that the shooters could take better aim at the president. It is a difficult thing to hit a moving target, and not so difficult to hit a target that is barely moving.

Let me also make you aware that every single shot taken at President Kennedy was aimed at his head. That is precisely why five shots were required. Only the last shot fired achieved that required element of the assassination. [Boy! Those were some great expert marksmen there, huh? It took FIVE shots to hit one very slow-moving head. Orlando Martin is nuts!]

In the alteration to the film, while it was in the custody of Time Inc., not only did they remove the frames at which the cars almost came to a halt at Elm Street, they also changed the aspect ratio and zoomed in during the frames when Agent Greer looked back at the president twice during the shooting. Someone did not want the people to see that. [Reprise: Orlando Martin is nuts!]

If you look at the copy that Jim Garrison was given by Time in 1969 (the one that most people are familiar with), for the trial of Clay Shaw in New Orleans, you do not see the cars in the motorcade almost coming to a stop. You also do not see Agent Greer looking back at the president twice during the shooting, as he in fact did. [Yes, you do see those things, Orlando. You're making stuff up again.]

Later in his testimony Greer stated to the Commission that he had looked back only once during the shooting, and had only seen Connally, and not the president. In fact, as undisputed as any thing could be, Greer lied to the Commission. The copy of the film from the LMH Company shows him looking back twice during the shooting, as depicted in the book.

It also shows that he witnessed the impact to the president's head, at Z-313, and only then accelerated the car. Greer began looking back at the president at Z-304, and continued looking at the president until the head impact at Z-313.

He waited for the headshot to come in from the Grassy Knoll before he moved on. Based on his behavior, anyone could deduce that he was aware that there was a gunman in [on?] the Knoll [LOL]. The fact that Agent Greer waited for the headshot is clear and evident in the film from LMH.

You asked: so what? How idiotic is that of a question! The "so what" is so that the president could be murdered. I consider that "so what" extremely significant. Don't you?

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID:

So, Orlando, let me get this straight....

You actually think that Secret Service agent William Greer was one of the KEY CONSPIRATORS in the President's assassination. Is that correct?

------------------------------------------------------------------

RALPH CINQUE SAID:

It [the downward angle of JFK's upper-back wound] was 45 degrees as measured, and then the Warren Commission, arbitrarily, changed it to 17 degrees.

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID:

The wound in President Kennedy's upper back was certainly NOT "measured" as being 45 degrees downward. Ralph is just making that up. Dr. Humes was merely ESTIMATING the angle. And he was wrong.

Ralph is placing far too much emphasis on Dr. Humes' initial (and obviously inaccurate) estimate of the downward angle of the upper-back wound.

I believe I'm correct in also saying that Dr. Humes originally said he thought the back wound was angled downward at 45 to 60 degrees! Not just 45 degrees.

This "range" of ESTIMATES of 45 to 60 degrees is just simply impossible, unless somebody was firing at JFK from a helicopter hovering over Dealey Plaza.

Plus, I'll also add this important quote that came out of the mouth of Dr. Humes during his Warren Commission testimony:

"Mathematics is not my forte." -- Dr. James J. Humes [2 H 370]

------------------------------------------------------------------

RALPH CINQUE SAID:

You are wrong. Humes said it was 45 degrees, and it was corraborated [sic] by FBI agents Seibert [sic] and O'Neill, who attended the autopsy. They said that the angle of entry was 45 degrees--or greater!

And Dr. Hume [sic] tried hard to track that shoulder wound. With a metal probe, he pried at it, trying to feel where it led. In the end, he officially said the bullet had no exit. Yet, it didn't show up on any x-ray. Note that not all of Kennedy's autopsy x-rays were released.

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID:

Ralph,

You actually think that Sibert & O'Neill "corroborated" Humes' pinky probe estimate of 45 degrees?

You're dreaming. And you're silly.

Sibert & O'Neill merely REPEATED Humes' incorrect ESTIMATE of the downward angle of the upper-back wound. Nothing more. The two FBI agents didn't measure the angle, for Pete sake. Nor did Humes.

Ralph, you're making stuff up, and you really should stop doing that. (And author Orlando Martin should stop doing that too.)

Here's a 2005 interview with ex-FBI agent James Sibert. In this interview, Sibert destroys another conspiracy myth--he confirms that "no large bullet of any kind...was found" at JFK's autopsy.

------------------------------------------------------------------

RALPH CINQUE SAID:

According to the FBI autopsy report [this makes no sense, of course, because no such "FBI autopsy report" exists at all], the wound in the back was discovered or examined during the latter stages of the autopsy. They probed that wound with a finger (Humes) and with a metal probe (Finck), and found that the bullet had supposedly entered in a SHARPLY DOWNWARD direction into the body. But they found no exit and concluded that the bullet had worked its way out when cardiac massage had been performed on the President.

Dr. Humes told the Warren Committee that his estimate was that the bullet entered downward at 45 to 60 degrees. If that's what he thought, no way could it have been 17 degrees in accordance with Oswald's location.

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID:

~sigh~

Let me try this again. Maybe the significance of these words uttered by Dr. Humes himself will resonate better after an instant replay:

"Mathematics is not my forte." -- Dr. James J. Humes [2 H 370]

------------------------------------------------------------------

PATRICK COLLINS SAID [WHILE RESPONDING TO ONE OF RALPH CINQUE'S POSTS]:

Why do I need to read Orlando's book in respect of the JFK back wound angle? Yes, I have read the book--probably twice--and it's appalling frankly. There is nothing in Orlando's book that adds to the JFK back wound angle debate.

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID:

Patrick [Collins],

What are your thoughts about Mr. Martin's blatant lie about all of John Connally's X-rays that we find in WC Volume 17 being "fakes"?

I've never once heard any conspiracy theorist ever suggest any such thing about Connally's X-rays. Yes, the kooks will pretend that some or most of KENNEDY'S X-rays are missing or are fakes, but CONNALLY'S?

Mr. Martin's imagination has broken new (and silly) ground, to be sure.

------------------------------------------------------------------

PATRICK COLLINS SAID:

Hi David,

My guess is that he [Orlando Martin] thought the pre surgery JC [John Connally] x-rays were not in the record because his research and knowledge of the subject was and is shoddy and lacking. He has demonstrated that throughout his book. He is a newby posturing as a seasoned expert and he's been caught out. Embarrassing really.

Yes, Orlando Martin has indeed broken new and very silly ground. I think he has usurped Menninger and contributed the most embarrassing work to date. I almost feel sorry for the man -- but for his arrogance and bullying posturing, I'd almost have the heart to say, aah good effort on getting your book published, but no, it's frankly laughable. I am at a loss for words really. And hey, let's have a laugh....and I have resisted this so far, but there was a "plum" of blood atop JFK's head -- are we sure that isn't a raspberry? Page 73 [of Martin's book "JFK: Analysis Of A Shooting"]. Perhaps we mean plume....of course one wonders if this first draft of an effort needed a little bit more work before it was published. I think yes is the answer!

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID:

Thanks for the response, Patrick.

While discussing some of Orlando Martin's silliness in the last couple of weeks on various Internet forums, I kept wondering why I was the only person who was interested in debunking the absurd claim made by Martin about how all of John Connally's pre-op X-rays are "missing" and "destroyed".

Not even any LNers would say anything about such repulsive allegations. Maybe it's just that nobody cares very much what the conspiracy kooks are writing about recently. ~shrug~

I also had given thought to the possibility that Martin had simply never looked at a single page of ANY of the Warren Commission's 26 volumes of supporting evidence and testimony (which is definitely the impression I got when listening to him misrepresent everything about the whole case in his 6/24/10 Black Op Radio interview).

During that radio appearance, I got the distinct impression that Mr. Martin seems to have read ONLY the 888-page main Warren Report itself, while failing to study anything in the 26 volumes (all of which can be accessed online; which is something even Vincent Bugliosi doesn't seem to realize to this very day).

During his almost one-hour Black Op Radio appearance on June 24th, Martin did not mention a thing about any of the existing X-rays of Governor Connally being "fakes". He claimed that Connally's pre-surgery X-rays were "missing" and had probably been "destroyed". But he never said a word on the Black Op show about any X-rays being fakes or frauds.

So, based on just his radio interview alone, it makes me wonder if Orlando Martin (prior to our Amazon discussions in the last few days) even knew that those X-rays existed in WC Volume 17 at all.

But one thing that Martin said in an earlier Amazon post this week made me think that he has at least looked at SOME of the supporting WC volumes -- it was when he said he had published a photo in his book of one of the post-operative X-rays of Connally's wrist.

So, if Martin knows that CE692 and CE693 (the two post-op wrist X-rays) are in WC Volume 17, then he surely MUST realize that CE690 and CE691 (the two pre-op wrist X-rays) are right there in the very same volume, just a page or two away! Right?

Patrick, since you said you have Martin's book, can you confirm for me that Martin does, indeed, have a photo of either CE692 or CE693 in his book somewhere, as he said he does?

Thanks.

------------------------------------------------------------------

PATRICK COLLINS SAID:

Hi David,

Page 93 of Analysis of a shooting shows a post op X ray of Connally's wrist--but it is unlabeled. Cross checking with the WC exhibits, it appears to match CE691.

It is definitely not CE692 or CE693. That is the only picture in the book of Connally's wrist X rays.

It occurred to me that perhaps together with the publisher, the author decided they needed something new--namely the chest exit on JFK and cooked up the whole story to sell more books.

The seed of the theory no doubt being the so-called 45-degree downward angle in JFK's back. The huge oversight being of course that a 45-degree (plus approx 18 additional degrees provided by the slope of Elm St) would have required a vantage point far higher than any building in the area could provide.

Cheers, Patrick

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID:

Thanks, Patrick.

CE691 is a PRE-op X-ray, not a post-op. So, maybe Martin is trying to pass off a pre-op as a post-op? ~shrug~

BTW, your figures aren't correct regarding the slope of Elm Street. The slope/grade of Elm was 3 degrees, 9 minutes (which equates to 3.15 degrees), not approx. 18 degrees as you said.

It sounds as though you are mixing up the downward angle from Oswald's window (which was 17+ degrees, not counting the 3+-degree slope of Elm) with the "slope" measurement of Elm itself.

------------------------------------------------------------------

RALPH CINQUE SAID:

Kennedy's personal physician, Dr. George Burkley, also confirmed the 45 to 60 degree angle.

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID:

Dr. Burkley didn't stick his own finger in JFK's back wound. Nor did Dr. Burkley do any measuring of the angle of that wound. Ralph is making stuff up again, as usual.

------------------------------------------------------------------

RALPH CINQUE SAID:

I looked it up, and Dr. Hume[s] told the Warren Commission that 45 to 60 degrees was a "guestimate" [sic]. That was the word he used.

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID:

You didn't "look up" anything of the kind. You're making stuff up again. The word "guesstimate" is nowhere to be found in any of Dr. Humes' Warren Commission testimony.

Plus, you just admitted that Humes' estimate was only a "guesstimate", which is pretty much the whole point I was making in the first place--i.e., HUMES JUST GUESSED about the angle of declination. So, you've shot yourself in the foot there.

Furthermore, Ralph, you're digging yourself a deeper hole regarding that angle of the back wound -- because by increasing the angle to as much as possibly SIXTY degrees downward, then where on Earth (or above Earth) could the assassin have been located to achieve such a sharp downward trajectory into Kennedy's body? Was the killer on the moon?

------------------------------------------------------------------

ORLANDO MARTIN SAID:

Mr. Von Pein,

Since you have admitted that the cars in the motorcade nearly came to a stop when the president was being shot at, as many witnesses mentioned, including some that were riding in the cars of the motorcade, and that Time Inc. doctored the film, and removed those frames [when did I ever "admit" such a ludicrous claim as this, Martin?], that in itself showing their attempt at a cover up, and their desregard [sic] for the truth, please admit another truth regarding the bullet that entered the president below his right shoulder.

The entry angle was of 45 degrees, which was corroborated by two FBI agents witnesses to the procedure. [Martin's nuts; as I mentioned previously, Sibert and O'Neill "corroborated" nothing in this regard.]

There was no helicopter hovering overhead. That shot did not come from the Book Depository, it came from one of the top floors or the rooftop of the Dallas County Criminal Courts Building, which is a higher elevation than the Depository, hence the greater angle of entry. [Orlando is making shit up here. It's what conspiracy theorists do best, of course.]

Any shooter in the Courts Building would have been to the left of the president, hence the magic bullet's undisputed left to right track through the body of both men, as I attest in the book.

This is a fact of the shooting that a basic shot-trajectory analysis would definetly [sic] prove. But none of you Commission supporters, nor our government is moral enough to conduct it.

It is indeed a shame when nearly an entire country and its government chooses to ignore such an obvious truth in the murder of a president. It brings into question what kind of a government do we have, and what kind of a people are we. How shameful could that be!

Additionally, I must mention that at this time "he said," "she said," or whatever statements are contained in that deceiving rag called the Warren Report do not amount to much.

Only a proper shot-trajectory study of the shots fired at the president could possibly uncover the infallible truth of the assassination. Why was this basic procedure never applied to the assassination of the president? A procedure that I have asked our government to conduct, but it stead-fast [sic] refuses to do.

It appears to me that since we refuse to conduct the procedure and prove the absolute truth in the assassination of our president, many of the claims that we have made in the past cannot possibly stand as true.

We are not a "Nation Under God." Such a nation would have the courage to always seek the truth. We do not have "Justice for All." President Kennedy has yet to receive justice after 46 years since his murder.

The biggest truth that we could ever face is the fact that Oswald did not shoot President Kennedy. And that is a truth that we now have the ability to prove, but concretely refuse to do it. Mr. Von Pein, ask yourself why?

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID:

You can go away now, Orlando. Your repetitive "Oswald Didn't Do It" spiel is getting really old (after just a few days, no less).

You said a bunch of things during your Black Op Radio appearance on June 24th, 2010, that you know are just flat-out misrepresentations concerning the evidence in the JFK case.

And yet you come here and try to peddle your misrepresentations and lies some more, disguised in a little bit of flowery talk about how WE, THE COUNTRY, are so lucky to have your wonderful book among us.

What a crock.

The truth lies in THE EVIDENCE and LEE HARVEY OSWALD'S KNOWN ACTIONS.

Oswald shot JFK. And Oswald shot Tippit. And, possibly just as important, Oswald took a pot shot at General Walker seven months earlier--which should not be overlooked, because that shot he took at Walker tells us a very important thing about Lee Oswald. It tells us that he had MURDER IN HIS VEINS, and he had it in HIMSELF to take a gun and aim it at a human being.

Now, before you go away (hopefully), tell the waiting world how Oswald was innocent of shooting at General Walker too? I'm sure you've got a few more misrepresentations of the evidence that you can dredge up in order to pretend that LHO was innocent of that crime too. Right, Mr. Martin?

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID:


Ralph, you cannot possibly be serious about using Sibert, O'Neill, and Burkley as "corroboration" for Humes' obviously inaccurate 45-degree estimate.

None of those men MEASURED the angle. They were ALL merely repeating what Humes had said. And Humes, obviously, was incorrect about the angle.

For the third time now, let me repeat Humes' own words about his math skills:

"Mathematics is not my forte." -- Dr. James J. Humes

------------------------------------------------------------------

ORLANDO MARTIN SAID:

Mr. Von Pein,

Have you read the Seibert [sic] and O'Neill memorandum? It is clearly stated that the wound of entry was of 45 degrees or greater. The agents were there at the autopsy and verified Dr. Humes' findings. Of course you were not!

How could you possibly denounce something so factual as that? It makes you sound rather silly. Like all the other Commission supporters, you have a hard time accepting conclusive truths regarding the assassination that indicate a cover-up.

Here goes something idiotic, not form you, but from another Commission supporter. [Dale] Myers stated regarding the first shot fired at the president: "the first shot was a shot that apparently missed." No! It did not apparently miss. It "conclusively" missed the president's automobile by over 130 yards.

One more thing that is included in the Seibert [sic]-O'Neill memorandum, which has been quoted by previous researchers: "It appeared that the president's head had undergone some type of surgery, and that such a surgery was apparent to us." When was this noted surgery done? Was it done at Parkland? How could it have been done in transit to Bethesda? Were the president's wounds altered to any degree?

The Commission chose to ignore that particular statement, like they conviniently [sic] chose to ignore the facts of the shooting that indicated that Oswald could not have shot from his location, such as the first shot fired, which they did not even mention in their rag of a Report.

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID:

~sigh~

Once more:

Sibert and O'Neill DID NOT STICK THEIR FINGERS IN THE BACK WOUND.

Their "corroboration" was merely REPEATING THE FALSE CLAIM OF DR. HUMES. Nobody actually MEASURED the angle at all.

Why can't you understand this basic (and obviously true) point, Orlando/Ralph?

For heaven sake, even Ralph admitted just a few posts back that Dr. Humes was just providing a "guesstimate" for the wound's downward trajectory. And now you two kooks act as if a "guesstimate" is rooted in fact, even though this "guesstimate" itself includes a wide range of angles -- from 45 to 60 degrees! Get real.

Footnote -- Orlando Martin needs to listen to the Sibert interview that I linked earlier, because in that interview, Sibert knocks down another conspiracy myth--the one about the "surgery of the head area".

Sibert confirms that Humes was talking about an area of JFK's head that was BLOWN OUT BY THE IMPACT OF THE BULLET -- not "surgery" that was performed after the shooting.

Here again is the link.

That Sibert interview should be required listening for conspiracy-happy kooks like Orlando Martin who decide to rush to their computers to write a book before they get all (or any) of their facts straight.

------------------------------------------------------------------

RALPH CINQUE SAID:

Orlando, I think that's it for me banging heads with these guys. You can keep it up if you want, but not me. Now Pein [another sic, naturally] wants to shift the discussion to General Walker--as if that has any bearing on anything.

I am not going to tolerate that kind of diversionary tactic. I think we should both just ignore them. I'll continue posting if someone interesting and intelligent comes along. But not these guys.

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID:

The topic of General Edwin A. Walker's shooting is very important to the JFK case. Because that criminal act gets to the heart of WHO Lee Harvey Oswald was.

Naturally, most conspiracy theorists like to pretend that Oswald never fired his newly-acquired Mannlicher-Carcano rifle at Walker's head on April 10, 1963. But such a belief is just silly, in light of all the evidence that indicates Oswald attempted to kill Walker.

Heck, Oswald HIMSELF practically told us he shot at Walker (via his detailed list of instructions written out for Marina, telling Marina what to do if he did not return home on April 10th [see Warren Commission Exhibit No. 1]).

Related Link:
http://Oswalds-Game.blogspot.com

------------------------------------------------------------------

ORLANDO MARTIN SAID:

Mr. Von Pein,

You are begining [sic] to sound not just silly, but highly idiotic. I have no idea if you have any common sense at all. But I am going to pretend that you indeed do.

Let's look at this from a common sense perspective.

[DVP: This ought to be a howl, coming as it does from a conspiracy nut who thinks JFK had a bullet hole in his chest that was never noticed during his autopsy.]

The truth of the assassination of President Kennedy cannot be deducted from Oswald's actions. Anyone with two brain cells should be able to tell you that; so I am truly surprised that you could make such a statement.

[Why? Oswald obviously killed JFK; therefore, the KILLER'S ACTIONS say a lot. Continue, Mr. Kook...]

This is the essence of the assassination to anyone with even basic common sense: If a man tells you that there is a way to prove a previoulsy [sic] debated act, will you dismiss him completely without trying what he is proposing?

If you do so, you have left the item in question unresolved. Why not try what he is proposing and prove him wrong? Would you not get plenty of satisfaction from proving him wrong? But it will be idiotic to dismiss his claims without putting his procedure to practice, and then denounce him.

I have made my government aware and challanged [sic] it to apply a shot-tracing procedure to the shots fired in a murder of national significance; the murder of a president, to prove the infallible truth of the event, and they do not have the courage to apply it. A basic procedure that was never applied to this murder. Why not? And I am a crockpot! What are they; immoral cowards!

[Of course, as usual, Mr. Martin is talking cuckoo talk here. A "shot-tracing" procedure was performed. Multiple such procedures were done, in fact. The Warren Commission did the first one on May 24, 1964, during its detailed reconstruction of the assassination in Dealey Plaza. And the HSCA performed a trajectory analysis of the shots as well, based on the wounds that existed in the two victims, JFK and Governor Connally. (See the testimony of Thomas Canning, beginning at 2 HSCA 154.) And all of these trajectory tests made it very plain as to where the shots came from that wounded the two limo victims--the shots that struck the victims came from above and behind the limousine--and more particularly, the shots that hit JFK & JBC came from the southeast corner window on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building.]

Let's look at this some more: according to you, I am a crockpot, completely wrong, misguided, and other things. Well then, if I am all these things, and have given you an avenue by which to prove that I am indeed, then why don't you prove me so?

[Earth to Orlando -- I have.]

Ask yourself why doesn't our government conduct the shot-tracing procedure that I have proposed to it, and prove that I am indeed a crockpot. Then they can discredit me at will.

[The Government already has conducted various shot-tracing procedures (aka: trajectory analyses). It's just that you don't like the Government's test results, so you will either ignore their trajectory studies or claim they are all wrong. Simple as that. Typical behavior, of course, for the conspiracy-loving crowd.]

To denounce me without daring to conduct the procedure as a means to the truth is totally irrational, and completely immoral, in a country w[h]ere we supposedly stand for justice.

What does our government fear? How can a man, as I have, call the government of his country immoral, murderous, deceitful, and despicable, regarding the assassination of a president, and their unwillingness to conduct a procedure that will establish the truth, and not be challanged [sic] by that government? It makes you wonder, doesn't it?

[No, it doesn't, Orlando. You think that whenever some crackpot conspiracy theorist comes out of the woodwork to peddle a fantasy book like yours, the United States Government is supposed to spring to rigid attention and let you lead them around by the nose until they conduct a series of expensive tests WHICH HAVE ALREADY BEEN PERFORMED by multiple Government investigative committees? Surely you jest.]

I guess that there are those in the establishment that feel that I am not such a crockpot after all. [Oh, I doubt that very much.] And as such, fear the thought of challenging me.

Do not dismiss me without putting my claim to practice. That only shows that you fear confronting the truth, and revealing it to the American people. Show more courage than that! That is all I am asking.

Ralph [Cinque] is correct, to continue the discussion with you amounts to a waste of time. There is nothing further you could possibly say that can overrule a physical practice that as a country we can conduct to establish the concrete truth. That being the true origins of the shots fired at our president.

[As mentioned, that type of analysis has already been performed--more than once. Are the WC and HSCA trajectory analysis tests some additional things that you are totally unaware of, Mr. Martin? I wonder.]

So, in essence, I challenge you, others like you, and my government to prove me wrong, when words alone will not do. Practically, if you completely refuse to conduct the procedure that is my chief claim in the assassination, then shut up.

What could you possibly say that could overcome a tangible practice to prove the truth?

[Huh?]


To the par of my government, I also consider you a coward, basically immoral, and far less than truthfull [sic], regarding the assassination of our president. I need say nothing more.

[Thank the Maker, Martin is finally through preaching from his favorite book: "The Gospel According To A Conspiracy Kook". Amen.]

------------------------------------------------------------------

DVP SAID [IN ADDITION TO THE SEVERAL INTERJECTIONS NOTED ABOVE IN BLUE TEXT]:

Holy mackerel, what a kook.

David Lifton and Doug Horne had better look out -- a guy named Orlando Martin is hot on their trail. Orlando is trying his darndest to take their "Top Kook" awards away from them!

------------------------------------------------------------------