DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Here's a real doozy of a conspiracy myth:
Lee Harvey Oswald never ordered any rifle at all from Klein's Sporting Goods in March of 1963.
Now, given the overwhelming evidence in this case that proves Lee Oswald definitely did order the rifle that ultimately ended up being the weapon that killed John F. Kennedy, the above theory/myth is totally preposterous and should be downright embarrassing to any conspiracy theorist who suggests such a thing.
And it's certainly not a new allegation either. In one of the first books ever written on the JFK assassination in 1966, "Rush To Judgment", lawyer and first-generation Warren Commission critic Mark Lane strongly suggested that there could have been something sinister going on with respect to the rifle and the way it was ordered through the mail. [And also see the video embedded below.] Lane also seemed to suggest the possibility that Oswald and A.J. Hidell (Oswald's alias) just might have been two different persons, which is an utterly implausible notion. Here's what Lane said in his book:
"It is of course possible that Oswald or Hidell or someone else ordered a rifle from the February issue of The American Rifleman and that Klein's sent a different but similar weapon by mistake. Without a suitable explanation, however, the chain of evidence relating Oswald, or Hidell, to the weapon appears damaged. The Commission failed to explore this possibility and
thereby closed its mind to an important aspect of the investigation."
-- Page 138 of "Rush To Judgment"
But, in reality, the "chain of evidence relating Oswald to the weapon" is not "damaged" at all, because the trail of evidence that tells any reasonable person that Mannlicher-Carcano rifle #C2766 (Commission Exhibit 139) was ordered, paid for, and possessed by Lee Harvey Oswald (aka "A. Hidell") is so extensive and complete and ironclad that it would take a person who has his head completely buried in conspiracy sand to believe that Oswald did not receive that exact rifle in the mail in late March 1963.
THE RIFLE FACTS:
1.) It has been proven, beyond all reasonable doubt, that Lee Harvey Oswald did, in fact, order a mail-order rifle from Klein's Sporting Goods Company in Chicago in March of 1963. The handwriting on all of the documents connected with the Klein's transaction is that of Oswald's, which proves beyond all doubt that it was Oswald (and no other person) who ordered and paid for Carcano rifle #C2766 that was shipped to Oswald/Hidell by Klein's in March 1963 [Warren Report, p.118-122]. (But, of course, many conspiracy buffs no longer think any handwriting analysis is worth a hill of beans. Which would mean that all of the various handwriting experts who testified over the years that it was positively Oswald's writing on the multiple documents associated with the rifle purchase must have all been dead wrong--or they all simply lied.)
2.) Regardless of the fact that Oswald technically did order a 36-inch Italian carbine, per the words written in the February 1963 American Rifleman magazine ad that Oswald used to order the rifle (pictured below), Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago shipped a 40-inch rifle with serial number C2766 on it to "A. Hidell" on March 20, 1963.
The internal paperwork generated by Klein's at the time in March of 1963 (see Waldman Exhibit No. 7 and the Warren Commission testimony of William J. Waldman, beginning at 7 H 360) confirms that Oswald/"Hidell" was shipped an Italian 6.5mm rifle with that exact serial number on it ("C2766").
The likely explanation for why Oswald received a 40-inch rifle instead of the 36-inch model that he ordered via the Klein's mail-order coupon is pretty simple and logical, and it is this: Klein's very likely ran out of the 36-inch model shortly before receiving Oswald's order, and hence shipped a very similar (but slightly lengthier) gun instead.
In August 2010, Gary Mack of the Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza provided this writer with some detailed information concerning the advertisements that Klein's was running in American Rifleman magazine throughout the calendar year of 1963. Mr. Mack's research revealed the fact that the February '63 Klein's ad was very likely the last time during the year 1963 that Klein's advertised the 36-inch Italian carbine. All other ads for that year that Mack was able to find indicate that the 40-inch rifle was being advertised. Here's the breakdown of the Klein's ads for that year in American Rifleman magazine:
Jan 63 -- p. 61 -- 36-inch “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with scope)
Feb 63 -- p. 65 -- Same ad as above
Mar 63 -- No ad
Apr 63 -- p. 55 -- 40-inch “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with scope)
May 63 -- Missing pp. 63-66
Jun 63 -- p. 59 -- 40-inch “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with scope)
Jul 63 -- p. 67 -- 40-inch “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.78 -- $19.95 (with scope)
Aug 63 -- p. 79 -- Same ad as above
Sep 63 -- p. 89 -- Same ad as above
Oct 63 -- p. 85 -- Same ad as above
Nov 63 -- No ad
Dec 63 -- No ad
[Source: E-mail to David Von Pein from Gary Mack, August 18, 2010.]
In that same e-mail, Gary Mack went on to say this:
"Oswald ordered the 36-inch rifle but, probably due to Klein’s running out of stock, he received the 40-inch model instead. The price remained the same, so Klein’s may have just sent him the newly available model instead. They would certainly accept a return if he didn’t want it.
The [Sixth Floor] Museum’s copy of the May 1963 issue is missing four pages and, since Klein’s ads normally ran in the back half of the magazine, it was likely on one of those pages. But as you can see, the ad for the months before and after May showed the exact same 40-inch rifle.
I don’t know when the American Rifleman normally went to press, but I would think they’d want the new issue to appear on the newsstands and in subscriber’s mailboxes at or shortly before the beginning of each month. That would mean all ad copy must be ready and in the hands of the publisher at least 30 days ahead of time, maybe more.
If Klein’s ran out of 36-inch rifles in January, they might not even have enough time to get a corrected ad in by the March deadline. Maybe that’s why there was no ad in the March issue. Perhaps Klein’s sold out of the Carcano and other weapons and just couldn’t update their new ad before the deadline."
---------------------------------
[End Quote by Gary Mack.]
---------------------------------
We must also keep in mind this important fact....
The Klein's coupon that Lee Oswald used to order his rifle came from the February 1963 issue of American Rifleman magazine. But he didn't mail that order coupon until the middle of March.
So by the time Oswald's rifle was shipped by Klein's (March 20), the April issue of American Rifleman (and other similar monthly magazines that had the Klein's ads in them) would have very likely already been on newsstands and in stores around the country.
And what was the length of the Italian Carbine that was being advertised by Klein's Sporting Goods in the April 1963 issue of American Rifleman magazine? Answer: 40 inches (per Gary Mack's e-mail shown above).
Therefore, nobody should be at all surprised (not even a conspiracy theorist) that Lee Oswald was shipped a 40-inch Carcano rifle in late March of '63, since we know from the Klein's ads that the 40-inch version of the gun is the exact model (in addition to being the exact same price and catalog number) that Klein's customers would have been ordering and receiving through the mail (via the April issue of American Rifleman) at that exact same point in time—late March of 1963.
And since we know that Klein's definitely did switch from a 36-inch weapon to a 40-inch model in their advertisements in the early months of 1963, it stands to reason that a customer who technically ordered the 36-inch gun might receive the 40-inch model instead. And, in my opinion, that's just exactly what happened with Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle order. Plus, the fact that Oswald ordered his gun in the middle of March while using a February coupon made it even more likely that Klein's would have had to send him the 40-inch gun instead.
3.) A palmprint belonging to that of Lee Harvey Oswald was discovered on a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle with the serial number C2766 on it after the gun was found on the sixth floor of the Book Depository on November 22, 1963.
Conspiracy theorists can gripe and moan about how this palmprint of Oswald's never really existed at all, but we're still left with the official record in this case, and that record shows us that a palmprint of Oswald's was, in fact, lifted off of rifle C2766 by Dallas Police Lieutenant J.C. Day on 11/22/63, shortly before the weapon was turned over to the FBI late that night [see 4 H 261 and 4 H 24 and this 11/23/63 FBI memo].
4.) In the early 1990s, fingerprint expert Vincent Scalice, by utilizing different methods of fingerprint photo comparison, was able to find well over a dozen points of identity linking the previously unidentified fingerprints on the trigger housing of the C2766 Carcano rifle to Lee Harvey Oswald's comparison prints. [See Part 3 of the 1993 PBS-TV documentary, "Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald?"]
WITH VINCENT SCALICE:
To any reasonable person who evaluates this evidence concerning the fingerprints found near the rifle's trigger, this shows that it's very likely that the last person who touched rifle C2766 prior to its being found on the sixth floor of the Book Depository was Lee Harvey Oswald.
5.) Just days after Klein's shipped rifle C2766 to Oswald/Hidell, Lee Oswald asked his wife, Marina, to take some pictures of him in the backyard of their small Neely Street apartment in Dallas [1 H 15-16].
As near as can be determined, those backyard pictures were taken by Marina Oswald on March 31, 1963. Klein's shipped the rifle to Oswald/Hidell on March 20th. So the timing is just about perfect in that regard. In other words, there was time for the rifle to reach Oswald's Dallas post office box in that 11-day interim.
6.) Photographic experts for the House Select Committee on Assassinations determined that the rifle that Oswald is holding in the backyard photos is "the same weapon" [6 HSCA 66] that was found by police on the sixth floor of the Book Depository on November 22, 1963.
The HSCA determined, therefore, that the rifle being held by Lee Harvey Oswald in the backyard photographs was, in fact, the very same rifle that was determined to be the weapon used to assassinate John F. Kennedy:
"A comparison of identifying marks that exist on the rifle as shown in photographs today with marks shown on the rifle in photographs taken in 1963 indicates both that the rifle in the Archives is the same weapon that Oswald is shown holding in the backyard picture and the same weapon, found by Dallas police, that appears in various postassassination photographs." [6 HSCA 66]
Now, given all of the above evidence (plus adding in just a small amount of common sense to go with it), can any reasonable person really come to a conclusion that Lee Harvey Oswald did not own and possess Mannlicher-Carcano rifle #C2766 in the year 1963?
I'll answer that last question myself -- No, they cannot.
Author Vincent Bugliosi made an excellent observation about some conspiracy theorists when he said this in his book "Reclaiming History", which is a quote that fits in nicely when discussing the topic of Oswald's rifle purchase:
"The conspiracy community regularly seizes on one slip of the tongue, misunderstanding, or slight discrepancy to defeat twenty pieces of solid evidence; ...treats rumors, even questions, as the equivalent of proof; leaps from the most minuscule of discoveries to the grandest of conclusions; and insists that the failure to explain everything perfectly negates all that is explained."
--------------
For additional discussions concerning Oswald's rifle purchase and the controversy surrounding the documents related to that gun purchase, check out the Internet weblinks located HERE, HERE, HERE, HERE, and HERE.
And also see pages 62-69 of "Beyond Reasonable Doubt: The Warren Report And Lee Harvey Oswald's Guilt And Motive 50 Years On".
David Von Pein
August 2010
February 2013
December 2014
June 2023
ADDENDUM #1:
GARRY PUFFER SAID:
From John Armstrong:
"The simple conclusion is that the FBI knowingly obtained this unused, unpaid money order from Postal Inspector Harry Holmes and then provided photographs of this unpaid money order to the Warren Commission. And the Commission knew, in the person of attorney David Belin, that they were offering this unpaid, never deposited money order as proof that Oswald purchased a mail order rifle from Klein's. This unpaid money order is the key to understanding that the FBI and Warren Commission knowingly created the hoax that Oswald purchased a mail order rifle from Klein's that he used to assassinate President Kennedy. This unpaid money order is one of the most important "smoking guns" found in the Warren volumes. It proves that Oswald did not purchase a mail order rifle, and it shows that both the FBI and Warren Commission knew that this unpaid money order had never been cashed or deposited."
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
The money order (which has OSWALD'S writing all over it; which the conspiracy-happy clowns have ignored for over 50 years) is just ONE piece of the evidence pile that proves Oswald ordered and was shipped Carcano Rifle #C2766. It's not JUST the money order that proves this, and author John Armstrong knows it. There's the order form, the envelope it was mailed in, and (most of all) Waldman #7, which was generated by Klein's on March 13, 1963, which proves they mailed C2766 to Oswald/Hidell. And why the heck would they be mailing a rifle to P.O. Box 2915 if the person ordering it NEVER PAID FOR IT?
Answer---they wouldn't.
The fact the rifle was shipped by Klein's on March 20th, 1963, is proof right there that the rifle was paid for. Otherwise, Klein's would never have shipped it to Post Office Box 2915 in Dallas at all.
But conspiracy theorists like John Armstrong and Garry Puffer will keep on pretending that ALL of that rifle stuff is fake. They look mighty foolish by taking that stance, but they'll keep on doing it---year after year. God only knows why. ~shrug~
David Von Pein
June 15, 2015
ADDENDUM #2:
SANDY LARSEN SAID:
How was it possible for LHO to have paid for the rifle given that the money order he supposedly used to pay for it was never processed? The proof for this is on the money order itself... or rather, not on it. For the money order has no Federal Reserve Bank markings on its back. Or its front.
If that can't be explained, then what we have here is evidence Oswald was framed.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Sandy,
The C2766 rifle was positively mailed by Klein's to Oswald's P.O. Box in Dallas. Waldman No. 7 proves that fact. And the money order was stamped by Klein's. So Klein's was definitely PAID the $21.45 for the rifle, and Klein's did the processing on their end by depositing it into their bank account. And that money order has Oswald's writing all over it.
Oswald ordered that rifle.
Klein's shipped that rifle to Post Office Box 2915 in Dallas, Texas.
Klein's received payment for that rifle (otherwise, of course, they never would have generated the order form which became Waldman Exhibit No. 7).
Case closed.
SANDY LARSEN SAID:
You completely ignored the fact that the money order had not been processed by a Federal Reserve Bank. As though that isn't an important point.
So I won the debate by default. That's what happens when one doesn't "show up" for a debate.
As for how LHO's handwriting got "all over" the money order, I would suggest the same way my dad's handwriting got all over the excuse notes I wrote to my home-room teacher explaining why I had been absent from school. Forging someone's handwriting isn't necessarily a difficult feat, and isn't an unheard of thing. Given that the money order is evidence that someone was attempting to frame Oswald, as I have demonstrated, it follows that the source of the handwriting be considered suspect as well.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Naturally. Nothing new or surprising there. Everything is "suspect" to a conspiracy theorist.
So, with respect to the evidence and the testimony associated with Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle purchase, the following things would have to be true, according to many CTers....
...William J. Waldman of Klein's was a big fat liar.
...Oswald's writing was forged on the money order.
...Oswald's writing was forged on the American Rifleman magazine order form for the rifle.
...Oswald's writing was forged on the envelope that housed the M.O. and the order form.
...Waldman Exhibit No. 7 is a complete forgery.
...The FBI agents who helped search the Klein's files on late November 22 and early November 23 must have been told to lie their asses off if they were ever to be asked this question: Did you help search the Klein's records in Chicago and were you present when the microfilmed records were found in those files which included an order form clipped from a magazine which had the name "A. Hidell" on it, plus the internal Klein's order blank (Waldman #7), which verified that a rifle bearing the serial number "C2766" was shipped by Klein's to "A. Hidell" at P.O. Box 2915 in Dallas, Texas, on March 20, 1963? .... Because, according to many conspiracy theorists, those FBI agents actually witnessed the retrieval of no such "Hidell" microfilmed records in the Klein's files at all.
...The whole $21.45 money order, in every respect, is a fraudulent document (and not just Oswald's allegedly forged handwriting) --- e.g., the "GPO; Mar. 12" and "$21.45" markings that are stamped on the front of the money order. And the Klein's "Pay to the order" stamp on the back is fake too (i.e., somebody stole Klein's rubber stamp [or created a perfect duplicate] and stamped the phony money order in order to fool everybody into thinking Klein's really did deposit the M.O. into its First National Bank account --- I'd love to see some proof to show that this hunk of fakery ever happened too; but, as always, no CTer on Earth can possibly prove that the "PAY TO THE ORDER" stamp on CE788 is a fraudulent Klein's endorsement).
See how silly this starts to get really fast when you have to pretend that Lee Harvey Oswald never ordered Rifle C2766 from Klein's Sporting Goods? Embarrassing, isn't it?
Regarding the discovery of the original money order that was found in Virginia, hundreds of miles from the offices of Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago, there are these excerpts from Vincent Bugliosi's book:
"[9:00 AM CST, 11/23/63] Although the FBI already has a microfilmed copy of the money order used to purchase the Carcano rifle, in preparing for trial prosecutors always want the original document. After depositing the money order into its bank account, Klein's, of course, no longer had the original money order.
[...]
[7:00 PM CST, 11/23/63] The IBM computers at the U.S. Postal Records Center in Alexandria, Virginia, have been humming for nearly seven hours now...searching for the original money order used to purchase the assassination weapon. There's no telling how many man-hours it might take to do a manual search.
Suddenly, a match is found, and the money order is located. The center rushes the original money order by special courier to the chief of the Secret Service in Washington. A handwriting analysis by a questioned-documents expert for the Department of the Treasury shows that the handwriting on the money order is that of Lee Harvey Oswald.*
If there is one thing that is now unquestionably certain, it is that Lee Harvey Oswald ordered and paid for the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle that was found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building shortly after the assassination."
-- Vincent Bugliosi; Pages 206 and 237 of "Reclaiming History" ©2007
* Sources --- CE1799 @ 23 H 419 and Warren Commission Testimony
of Alwyn Cole @ 4 H 373.
DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:
As for the lack of any bank stamps appearing on the back of Oswald's postal money order, I don't have a definitive answer to explain it. But I'd be willing to bet the farm that there IS a reasonable and non-conspiratorial answer to explain the lack of markings on the back of that document without resorting to the conclusion that the money order was manufactured and faked by a group of conspirators in a complicated and intricate effort to frame Lee Harvey Oswald for John F. Kennedy's murder.
And I know that conspiracy theorists who think Oswald never ordered a rifle from Klein's Sporting Goods in early 1963 have a heck of a lot MORE evidence to explain away than I do. Just check my list above.
SANDY LARSEN SAID:
I read the source [used by Bugliosi in the quote seen above], CE 1799. Just a report written by some anonymous person. Not exactly impressive evidence when compared to a missing Federal Reserve Bank stamp.
I don't know where Bugs got the 7 hour computers-humming information.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I'm not sure where Vince Bugliosi got the "7 hours" information either, but I think it's a reasonable figure. Vincent's "7 hours" remark comes in his chronological examination of the events as presented by Mr. Bugliosi in his "Four Days In November" chapter of "Reclaiming History", and Vince has it listed as something that took place at about 7:00 PM CST on Saturday, November 23rd, which was well more than 24 hours after the President's assassination. That would mean that people in Alexandria would have started searching for the original money order at around 12:00 Noon (Dallas time) on November 23. Sounds about right to me.
However, there is a document which provides a lot of additional details about the discovery of the original postal money order that was found in Alexandria, Virginia, on the night of 11/23/63. It's a four-page Secret Service report that appears in Commission Document No. 87, HERE.
RAY MITCHAM SAID:
From "Harvey and Lee" by John Armstrong:
"All US Postal Money orders have unique serial numbers. In the fall of 1962, Oswald purchased numerous money orders from the same downtown post office and mailed them to Washington, DC in order to repay a loan from the government for his travel expenses incurred when he returned to the USA from Russia. These money orders were purchased in numerical sequence beginning in November, 1962. These serial numbers show that some 1200 money orders per week were purchased at the downtown post office in Dallas. At this rate we see that Oswald's alleged purchase of a money order on March 12, 1963 should have been numbered 2,202,011,935. But the serial number of the money order published in the Warren Volumes was more than 118,000 numbers higher. At the rate of 1200 money order per week, this money order should have been purchased in late 1964 or early 1965. In other words, this money order could easily have been pulled from a stack of fresh, unsold money orders by a postal official in Dallas, sometime after the assassination, and then given to the FBI. A close look at the details surrounding the "finding" of the money order the day after the assassination strongly suggests that this is what happened."
[-- John Armstrong]
Any comments, Dave?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Why couldn't the Dallas post office have simply run out of their supply of blank U.S. Postal money orders shortly before Oswald purchased his M.O. on March 12th? It's fairly obvious to me that that is what happened.
Does John Armstrong really think that the Dallas post office had an unlimited supply of money orders on hand at all times? How silly.
At some point, the supply of money orders would run low and the Dallas post office would replenish its stock. And when they do get fresh stock, the serial numbers are, of course, going to be much higher than the ones they just ran out of, since they are "U.S. POSTAL MONEY ORDERS" with unique serial numbers attached to each one and are being continuously supplied to post offices and other institutions all around the entire country, not just the Main Post Office branch in Dallas, Texas.
Why on Earth is my above "Ran out of stock and simply replenished their supply with money orders that obviously would have much higher serial numbers" explanation not even to be considered by conspiracy theorists like John Armstrong?
~big shrug~
BTW, HERE'S another official document (an FBI FD-302 report this time) which verifies that U.S. Postal Money Order #2,202,130,462, signed by "A. Hidell", was in the possession of the FBI in Washington on November 24, 1963 (the date in the lower left corner of the report).
A quote from that FBI report:
"This money order was hand carried to the FBI Laboratory where it was turned over to Special Agent James T. Freeman."
David Von Pein
October 2015
ADDENDUM #3:
DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:
David,
How is it that the FBI is not made aware of the delivery of not only a 5-foot carton from Klein's with a rifle in it, but a REA package from Seaport with a pistol in it?
Are we saying that the Dallas Postal-related informants simply missed the largest package ever sent to the man, as well as him picking it up? Same problem with REA.
Why doesn't a single report prior to 11/22 show the FBI is aware of what Oswald received in the mail?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
David J.,
I think you (like many CTers) expect way too much efficiency from Government employees. (Similar to the efficiency you seem to expect from the post office clerks in Dallas, none of whom could recall handing Oswald his rifle package in March of '63---which is expecting way too much from a clerk many months after the transaction.)
Also....
Here's a related discussion re: the rifle purchase from April of 2017....
DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:
I'm curious Dave... all the FBI reports between March 1963 and Nov 1963 and not one mention of a rifle... or Judyth Baker for that matter... both figments of an overactive imagination. The FBI does not mention a rifle during that time because there was no rifle to talk about...
Prove otherwise.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
There's tons of proof that Oswald owned and possessed a rifle and a revolver as of March 1963. Tons! You just refuse to believe ANY of it is legitimate. ALL of this stuff is fake (or flat-out wrong), per many CTers:
1. All (or most) of the "Waldman Exhibits" that are available in Volume 21 of the WC volumes.
2. Commission Exhibit No. 773.
3. The backyard photographs (which show Oswald with a rifle and a pistol).
4. 6 HSCA 146 (verifying the legitimacy of the backyard photos).
5. Marina Oswald's testimony where she talks about seeing the guns Lee owned.
6. Marina Oswald's testimony where she admits that she herself took the backyard photographs.
7. Jeanne DeMohrenschildt's testimony where she states that she saw a rifle in the closet of Lee Oswald's apartment on Neely Street in Dallas....
MRS. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- "And I believe from what I remember George sat down on the sofa and started talking to Lee, and Marina was showing me the house that is why I said it looks like it was the first time, because why would she show me the house if I had been there before? Then we went to another room, and she opens the closet, and I see the gun standing there. I said, what is the gun doing over there?"
8. The testimony of William J. Waldman, in which he testified that Klein's definitely did ship the C2766 Carcano to Oswald's post office box in Dallas in March of '63.
9. The handwriting on both the money order (CE788) and the order coupon and envelope for the rifle purchase (CE773). That handwriting and handprinting was positively identified as the writing of LEE HARVEY OSWALD by multiple handwriting experts for the Warren Commission and the HSCA. But CTers want to now pretend that all of those experts got it wrong (or were just flat-out lying, take your pick).
So, as we can see, there is ample proof to show that Lee Oswald ordered, paid for, and possessed the Kennedy murder weapon (and the Tippit murder weapon as well).
Do conspiracy theorists really think the FBI "planted" all of those records in BOTH the Klein's files in Chicago AND the Seaport Traders files in Los Angeles prior to each of those companies finding the pertinent "Hidell" purchase records for both the rifle and the revolver on November 23, 1963? Can CTers REALLY believe they planted all of those records---right under the noses of the various Klein's and Seaport personnel who were performing the physical searches for those documents on 11/23/63? Such a notion is absurd, of course. But I guess many conspiracists must buy it.
(More here and here.)
LAWRENCE SCHNAPF SAID:
David,
Your argument that we expect too much efficiency from government employees is a Trojan Horse. .... We are talking about employees who were working with intelligence officials to help protect the country. I doubt these individuals [would] be so casual and inattentive to avoid a rifle being delivered to a former defector and subscriber to communist publications.
I'd even give you one pass on the pistol, but to expect both shipments to not draw attention really pushes the limits of credulity.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
But it's a red herring, Lawrence. Whether or not Oswald's gun packages drew the attention of anyone at the Dallas Post Office is a moot point.
Why?
Because all reasonable people who aren't prone to shouting "It's all fake!" every time they turn around realize that Lee Oswald did order the rifle and the revolver via mail order in early 1963, and Oswald did receive those weapons in the mail. In addition to the large amount of paperwork that exists to link Oswald to those two guns, there's also the fact, of course, that Oswald was photographed with both weapons in late March of '63 (just days after Klein's and Seaport shipped the guns to LHO).
So, do you think the backyard photos are all fakes too---despite the clean bill of health the HSCA gave them, and despite the fact that Marina Oswald has never ever backtracked on her testimony that she, herself, took pictures of her husband while he was holding each of those weapons in the Neely Street backyard? (Or do you think the guns he posed with were NOT the C2766 Carcano or the V510210 Smith & Wesson?)
But just how much alleged fakery is too much alleged fakery for a reasonable person to stomach in this case? Or is there any limit at all?
RON BULMAN SAID:
Oswald Didn't Order A Rifle. That's why no one in the Post Office said he picked it up over the counter with the notice in his post office box, Because the Rifle Wouldn't Fit In The Box. It didn't happen. It's been argued to death previously here and elsewhere. The Warren Omission story of it has fallen apart.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
And you do realize, do you not, the large number of things that would need to be FAKE---and the number of LIARS that would have been required---in order for these words to be true --- Oswald Didn't Order A Rifle?
But because the postal workers didn't specifically remember the WHOLLY MUNDANE AND ORDINARY act of handing a box to a post office box owner (an event that occurred EIGHT MONTHS prior to the postal workers being asked about it), you think that proves "Oswald Didn't Order A Rifle"???
Incredible!
I would have been shocked if anyone had specifically remembered Oswald picking up the rifle package when the clerks were asked about it EIGHT MONTHS later. Why on Earth would any postal worker recall such a routine event amid the thousands of other packages that those postal workers had handed out over the counter in the course of their daily duties? Do you think YOU could remember such a routine event eight months later?
JIM HARGROVE SAID:
All the rifle documents, and the pistol documents as well, placed in evidence and now at the National Archives are all black and white COPIES. What happened to all those ORIGINALS that the FBI confiscated?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Would that really make a bit of difference to you or other Anybody But Oswald conspiracy theorists like you? Don't make me laugh! You guys wouldn't believe anything relating to Oswald's ownership of the rifle---even if Charlie Givens had taken an up-close picture of Oswald holding the rifle while standing in the Sniper's Nest at 12:30 PM on Nov. 22. You'd find some way to disregard that photo, just like you disregard all of the "LHO Did It" evidence in this case.
After all, an "original" document can be a fake and a forgery too, can't it? For example, many CTers think that Cadigan Exhibit No. 11 (Oswald's money order; aka CE788) is a fake document. The rabid CTers of the world don't think Oswald touched that money order at all. And yet it is an "original" document, not just a "copy". (See the testimony of Cadigan, Cole, McNally, and Scott.)
David Von Pein
January 19-22, 2018
ADDENDUM #4:
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
What does one make of a lawyer [Vincent Bugliosi] who bases his book on the rifle but DOES NOT TELL THE READER IT'S THE WRONG RIFLE?!
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Jim has apparently conveniently forgotten about this discussion we had on August 22, 2016....
JIM DiEUGENIO SAID:
Davey: Please show us where in VB's 2646-page opus [sic; Bugliosi's book is actually 2,824 pages long, including all endnotes and source notes] he tells the reader that the rifle the Dallas Police offered into evidence is not the same rifle that Oswald allegedly ordered?
DVP SAID:
Okay. Gladly. Here you go....
[Quote On:]
"The Warren Commission overlooked putting the American Rifleman advertisement in its volumes. But conspiracy theorist Sylvia Meagher points out that the advertisement was for a $12.88 Carcano ($19.95 with scope) that was 36 inches long, weighed 5 1⁄2 pounds, and had a catalog number of C20-T750, though we know the $19.95 Carcano that was sent to Oswald was 40 1⁄5 inches long and weighed 8 pounds, which was closer to the 40-inch Carcano weighing 7 pounds advertised in the November 1963 ad in a different magazine, Field and Stream. But Meagher fails to state the significance of this discrepancy.*
In other words, so what? We know Oswald was shipped his Carcano, serial number C2766 (whether or not it was the same weapon he had ordered, and whether or not he was even aware he received a Carcano a little over 4 inches longer and 3 1⁄2 pounds [sic] heavier than he had ordered), we know it was found in the sniper’s nest [sic], and we know it was the murder weapon."
-- Vincent Bugliosi; Pages 392-393 of Endnotes in "Reclaiming History" [Also pictured below]
* Sources used by Bugliosi for the above book excerpt:
.... Sylvia Meagher, Accessories after the Fact, p.48 footnote;
.... Fact that Oswald ordered his Carcano from a February 1963 Klein’s advertisement in the American Rifleman magazine: Waldman Exhibit No. 8,
21 H 704;
.... CE 773, 17 H 635;
.... WR [Warren Report], p.119;
.... 7 H 366, WCT William J. Waldman;
.... Advertisement reprinted in “In the Works: Tighter Laws on Gun Sales,” p.4;
.... See also the August 27, 1965, edition of Life magazine [pages 62-65];
.... Field and Stream ad where yet a different catalog number, C20-750, is used for the Carcano: Holmes Exhibit No. 2, 20 H 174, viii;
.... 7 H 294, WCT Harry D. Holmes;
.... Length and weight of Oswald’s Carcano: 3 H 395, WCT Robert A. Frazier.
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
Typical DVP. Which is why I swore him off.
Note where this is located: it's in the end notes. Now if the End Notes were in the book, that is one thing.
In RH, they are not in the book. They are on a CD that goes with the book. In other words, the reader has to take it out, insert it into the computer and then read another thousand or so pages of sources and further material.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
So, Jim, since I proved in 2016 (via the above Endnotes quotation) that Vincent Bugliosi positively did "tell the reader" about the "36-inch" vs. "40-inch" rifle discrepancy, can we at least agree that you chose your words poorly when you asked the following two questions in 2016 and 2019?....
"Please show us where in VB's 2646-page opus he tells the reader that the rifle the Dallas Police offered into evidence is not the same rifle that Oswald allegedly ordered?" -- Jim D.; August 2016
"What does one make of a lawyer who bases his book on the rifle but DOES NOT TELL THE READER IT'S THE WRONG RIFLE?!" -- Jim D.; August 2019
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
I would like to ask a question: How many people on this forum read all 1518 textual pages of RH?
Now, let me ask this: How many people read all of the CD?
(Sound of crickets in the night.)
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Well, I have certainly read every page of the "Reclaiming History" endnotes. So your crickets in the night have just been forever silenced. 😉
And I continue to reference various parts of Vince Bugliosi's book on a regular basis (both the physical hardcover volume and the 1,000+ pages of CD-ROM endnotes). The book—including the very important endnotes—is an invaluable source of factual information concerning the events of November 22, 1963 (despite the conspiracy theorists' condemnation of it).
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
The obvious question is: why did VB not include this in the text?
I can tell you why since I analyzed the book. Vince did not want to include anything that he thought could give him a serious problem in the text of the book. So he put it on the CD. So he could more easily dismiss it. And this is what he usually did.
But he even got worse with things he knew he could not handle, on those issues he just left it out, e.g. the FBI rigging Ruby's polygraph. This is why it's a dishonest book. He says at the outset he will not do that. He did. And there is no denying that it was deliberate. Because the information was right there in his end notes sources, he just ignored it.
BTW, David Belin knew it was the wrong rifle also. The WR does not bring the issue up.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
The Warren Commission undoubtedly didn't feel the need to bring up the 36-inch/40-inch rifle-length discrepancy because they knew beyond all doubt that Klein's had definitely shipped the Kennedy murder weapon to Lee Oswald in March of '63. Waldman Exhibit No. 7 proves that fact for all time. The key to knowing this fact, of course, is the rifle's serial number—C2766—which is a number that appears on both Waldman #7 and the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle in the National Archives today.
Plus, when we examine the Klein's Catalog Numbers on the two pertinent rifle-purchasing documents in this case—Waldman #7 and CE773—we can see that the catalog numbers are identical —— C20-T750.
And it's also important to take note of the fact that even after Klein's Sporting Goods changed their magazine ads from the 36-inch rifle to the 40-inch model, the internal Klein's catalog number remained the same for at least a few months after Oswald purchased his gun, with the two Klein's advertisements pictured below proving that fact. Both of these Klein's ads depict a catalog number of C20-T750 for the $19.95 Rifle + Scope package that Oswald ordered in March 1963. The top ad is from the February '63 American Rifleman magazine (which was the source for Oswald's purchase), while the bottom ad (which is advertising a 40-inch Italian carbine) comes from later in 1963....
JOSEPH McBRIDE SAID:
Putting contrary information in notes or appendices is a common tactic to downplay, dismiss, discredit, or simply to bury the information that undercuts a book's thesis. The WC did that with its 26 volumes. Dale Myers did it with his Tippit book.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
But there was really no good reason for Vince Bugliosi to want to "bury" the rifle-length discrepancy. And that's because the solution to the "discrepancy" is a very obvious and non-conspiratorial one. Klein's simply ran out of 36-inch Italian rifles shortly before they received Oswald's order in the mail, and therefore they shipped him a 40-inch model instead. Simple as that.
And that is a very reasonable and logical explanation, especially when considering the fact that in the very next ad that Klein's ran in American Rifleman (on page 55 of the April '63 issue; there was no Klein's ad at all in the March issue), the length of the rifle had changed from 36 inches to 40.
David Von Pein
August 7-8, 2019
ADDENDUM #5:
JERRY FREEMAN SAID:
Paperwork can be faked...just like counterfeit bills and anything else.
To accept that an order was mailed from Dallas [in 1963 yet], was received and completely processed in a Chicago sports facility within 24 hours is absolute looney tunes.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Therefore, if what you just said is true, then why on Earth did the looney conspirators who were "faking" all the rifle paperwork want to make it look like the order was processed in 24 hours? That was a really stupid gaffe on their part (if such a thing was impossible in 1963)....wouldn't you agree?
JOHN TONKOVICH SAID:
You have still never explained how Oswald ordered one size long gun, but received a different sized long gun.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I've explained the "36-inch vs. 40-inch" discrepancy on many occasions in the past (such as in the articles linked below). It's a very easy problem to solve too (except if you're a conspiracy theorist, of course)....
DVP's JFK Archives/36-Inch Rifle Vs. 40-Inch Rifle
DVP's JFK Archives/JFK Assassination Arguments (Part 1081)
JOHN IACOLETTI SAID:
And by "explain", he means that he's guessing that they "simply ran out of 36-inch guns" and decided to substitute 40-inch guns.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
It couldn't be more obvious that Klein's was definitely running out of the 36-inch rifles in the early months of 1963, because they completely stopped selling (and stopped advertising) the 36-inch variant after February of '63. Every Klein's ad after February shows the "40-inch Carbine".
It's not hard at all to figure out what happened with Oswald's order in March (except if you're a conspiracy theorist, of course).
JOHN IACOLETTI SAID:
Klein's was still advertising the 36" rifle in the July 1963 issue of Guns Magazine.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yes. You're correct. I just confirmed for myself that "Guns" Magazine was, indeed, still advertising the 36-inch Italian Carbine as late as July of 1963:
July 1963 "Guns" Magazine (Klein's ad on Page 13)
In the August '63 issue of "Guns", they started advertising the 40-inch version of the rifle:
August 1963 "Guns" Magazine (Klein's ad on Page 15)
[More 1963 issues of "Guns" can be found HERE.]
It would be interesting to know if customers who ordered Carcano rifles from Klein's while using "Guns" Magazine mail-order coupons from February through July of '63 received a 36-inch gun or, like Lee Oswald, a 40-inch gun. That is something, though, we will likely never be able to ascertain.
If only David Belin had asked Klein's Vice President William Waldman this question when Waldman was testifying in front of the Warren Commission on
May 20, 1964 (which was not asked):
Mr. Waldman, can you explain to us why it is that Lee Harvey Oswald (aka A. Hidell) ordered a 36-inch gun from your company (according to the mail-in coupon that he sent to Klein's in March of 1963), but the rifle you ultimately shipped to him one week later was a 40.2-inch gun? Can you tell us why that discrepancy exists in this case?
I would have enjoyed hearing Mr. Waldman's answer to the above question. I'm confident it would have been a very reasonable and acceptable answer too. (Conspiracy theorists undoubtedly would disagree.)
JOHN IACOLETTI SAID:
You haven't even ascertained that Oswald received anything.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
That's the rabid conspiracy theorist in you talking. It's certainly not the "reasonable person named John Iacoletti who has looked at all the evidence" speaking.
Oswald sent Klein's $21.45. And Klein's sent Oswald (Hidell) the C2766 rifle just a few days later. The paperwork, confirmed by Bill Waldman, proves those two facts. So, what are the odds that Oswald really received nothing at all from Klein's?
JOHN IACOLETTI SAID:
Also, Mitchell Westra told the HSCA that Klein's did not mount scopes on the 40-inch rifles.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
To say that Klein's never mounted scopes on its 40-inch rifles is practically the same as totally ignoring all of the many ads that Klein's Sporting Goods was placing in magazines in mid to late 1963. Was Klein's lying to its mail-order customers when it said that a customer could purchase a 40-inch carbine with scope ("as illustrated") -- i.e., the scope is attached to the gun itself? [More on this "Scope Mounting" topic HERE.]
Re: Mitchell Westra's statement about Klein's never putting scopes on the 40-inch rifles .... Conspiracy theorists will always, invariably, leave out the part of Westra's statement where he says this: "Undoubtably Klein's mounted some..." [More on Westra HERE.]
Also....
THIS 2013 ARTICLE goes a long way toward debunking the notion that Klein's Sporting Goods never mounted scopes on their 40-inch Carcano rifles, because in that article, the gunsmith who worked in the Klein's warehouse in 1963, William Sharp, said that he told his boss right after the assassination in 1963: “It’s my rifle, I put the scope on it”.
David Von Pein
September 15-24, 2020
"Despite over forty years of allegations by Mark Lane and other conspiracy theorists, if there is one thing even a child should walk away from this case knowing for sure, it's that only one rifle was found in the Texas School Book Depository and that rifle, a Mannlicher-Carcano, serial number C2766, was bought and paid for by Lee Harvey Oswald."
-- Vincent T. Bugliosi; Page 794 of "Reclaiming History: The Assassination Of President John F. Kennedy" (2007)
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