GIL JESUS SAID:
Does anyone know where the forms are for the "Hidell" purchases of the rifle and handgun?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Another day at the office for the Anybody But Oswald conspiracy theorists, I see.
To a CTer, the things we DON'T have in evidence are always much, much more important than the things we DO have in evidence. And, of course, it's always been that way for the ABO conspiracy crowd.
And the things we do have in evidence indicate--beyond all possible doubt--that Lee Oswald ordered, paid for, and was shipped the C2766 rifle from Klein's and the revolver from Seaport Traders.
And it wouldn't make a bit of difference if Forms 2162 & 1508 were in evidence concerning Oswald's gun purchases. Because even if those forms existed, people like Gil Jesus and James DiEugenio would merely be inventing new excuses to consider them ALL FAKE and planted. (Is there ANY doubt at all that this would be the attitude adopted by people like Gilbert and Jim?)
Conspiracists like Gilbert and James do it with EVERY piece of incriminating evidence against Oswald. EVERY piece, without exception.
Why do they do that?
Simple. Because if they don't, they have to admit that their precious patsy was guilty of the two murders he so obviously committed in Dallas.
A great example of this is Waldman Exhibit No. 7. That exhibit--all by itself--shatters the illusions of Gil and Jimbo, because it provides all the information anyone needs to KNOW FOR CERTAIN that Klein's DID receive an order form and a money order in the amount of $21.45 from the purchaser ("A. Hidell", who we all know is really Lee Oswald).
And Waldman 7 also tells us (for all time) that the rifle that Klein's mailed to the customer named Hidell was shipped to a P.O. Box in Dallas that we know was rented by Gil's favorite patsy--Lee Oswald.
And Waldman 7 also tells us that the rifle Klein's shipped to Hidell/Oswald wasn't just any old rifle -- no, it was Rifle #C2766, which just happens to be the exact rifle that was used to murder President Kennedy. (And if someone wants to resurrect the myth about there being a whole bunch of additional Carcano rifles with the number C2766 on them, they'll get a nice-sized argument from me -- because the fact is: there hasn't been a single additional "C2766" Carcano rifle ever seen by anyone on this planet that we know of. And not only that--I have never even heard of anyone coming forward to say that they have seen ANY TWO Carcanos with the same serial number--regardless of whether it's the number C2766 or any other number they'd care to pick out of a hat. It just hasn't happened. And it never will--because Oswald's C2766 rifle is the only Carcano ever made with that unique number on it. Which is, btw, the whole point of stamping a serial number on an item in the first place--to make it unique.)
So, unless the CTers can prove Waldman #7 is really a phony baloney document, then where does that leave the CTers who continue to want to pretend that Klein's never received payment from Oswald and that Klein's never shipped Rifle C2766 to LHO?
And, of course, nobody has ever come close to proving that Waldman #7 is a fake, and they never will be able to prove such a silly allegation--because Waldman 7 is a real document, with a real "Klein's" logo in the corner, and was verified as such by Klein's Vice President William J. Waldman in his 1964 WC testimony.
GIL JESUS SAID:
Waldman 7 is not a REAL DOCUMENT, it is a COPY from a microfilm copy.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
It's a PHOTOGRAPH of a REAL DOCUMENT, Gil. It's as good as having the original document in our hands.
Or would you like to now pretend that the copy of Waldman 7 is a fake and that it does not represent a REAL DOCUMENT at all?
And would you also like to show us proof that Bill Waldman of Klein's is a liar when he testified to all kinds of important stuff relating to Exhibit No. 7, including the very important "M.O." marking on that document--which can only indicate one thing: Klein's received a money order for the full amount of $21.45 from "A. Hidell" for the purchase of one Italian carbine.
If you can't do either of the above things, then you've got a problem -- because, as I mentioned previously, Waldman Exhibit 7 is a great document for shooting down all kinds of crazy theories that have been spouted by conspiracy theorists regarding Oswald's 1963 rifle purchase.
GIL JESUS SAID:
And of course it's a fake [Waldman Exhibit No. 7]. And it's a fake for the same reason the order blank is a fake: It's got the wrong catalog number for the 40" rifle.
The idiots who faked them obviously didn't know there was a difference in catalog numbers between the 36" rifle and the 40" rifle.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
More nonsense from Gilbert.
You have no proof whatsoever that Waldman 7 is a fake. Nor do have a speck of proof that the order form that Oswald used to order the weapon is a fake either. To the contrary, the order form has Oswald's own handwriting on it. (Naturally, you think his writing is phony too. Well, go tell that to the handwriting experts who testified for the WC and HSCA.)
The catalog number shown on Waldman #7 is exactly the correct catalog number relating to Oswald's/(Hidell's) March '63 rifle order....so, naturally, that's the exact number that Klein's stamped on the order (probably on March 13, since it was not written in by hand).
When it came time to ship Oswald's 36-inch rifle order seven days after the order form was received by Klein's in Chicago, Klein's undoubtedly realized they were out of stock of the 36-inch rifles, so they shipped him the 40-inch model, which is a model that Klein's had TOTALLY SWITCHED TO by the time of the VERY NEXT Klein's magazine ad.
Gary Mack did some great research on this matter last year (see the direct quote from Gary below), as he dug up copies of all the 1963 Klein's ads that appeared in American Rifleman magazine throughout that calendar year....with Gary discovering that the February ad (which Oswald used to place his order for a 36-inch rifle) was the last ad during the entire year for the 36-inch model carbine. All other ads after February advertised the 40-inch model.
It couldn't be more obvious what happened here: Klein's simply ran out of the 36-inch rifles, so they shipped Oswald the longer 40-inch rifle. I'm guessing that Oswald never even knew the difference.
Quoting Gary Mack:
"I looked up the Klein's ads for 1963 and found that the next issue after February 1963 and all the issues afterward showed the 40" rifle. I don't have my notes here at the house, so the April 1963 issue, which would have mailed in mid-March so the ad had to have been changed prior to that, may be the first with the 40" weapon. So that is exactly what must have happened. Klein's ran out of 36" rifles very quickly and substituted the longer weapon. They may have notified customers ahead of time, but there's no record of that happening."
-- Gary Mack; August 17, 2010
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Gary then wrote me this follow-up e-mail on August 18, 2010:
Date: 8/18/2010 3:28:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: Gary Mack
To: David Von Pein
Dave,
Thanks to The Sixth Floor Museum’s collection, today I examined all 1963 issues of the American Rifleman and here is what I found:
Jan 63 -- p. 61 -- 36” “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with scope)
Feb 63 -- p. 65 -- Same ad as above
Mar 63 -- No ad
Apr 63 -- p. 55 -- 40” “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with scope)
May 63 -- Missing pp. 63-66
Jun 63 -- p. 59 -- 40” “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with scope)
Jul 63 -- p. 67 -- 40” “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.78 -- $19.95 (with scope)
Aug 63 -- p. 79 -- Same ad as above
Sep 63 -- p. 89 -- Same ad as above
Oct 63 -- p. 85 -- Same ad as above
Nov 63 -- No ad
Dec 63 -- No ad
So as I suggested earlier, Oswald ordered the 36” rifle but, probably due to Klein’s running out of stock, he received the 40” model instead. The price remained the same, so Klein’s may have just sent him the newly available model instead. They would certainly accept a return if he didn’t want it.
The Museum’s copy of the May 1963 issue is missing four pages and, since Klein’s ads normally ran in the back half of the magazine, it was likely on one of those pages. But as you can see, the ad for the months before and after May showed the exact same 40” rifle.
I don’t know when the American Rifleman normally went to press, but I would think they’d want the new issue to appear on the newsstands and in subscriber’s mailboxes at or shortly before the beginning of each month. That would mean all ad copy must be ready and in the hands of the publisher at least 30 days ahead of time, maybe more.
If Klein’s ran out of 36” rifles in January, they might not even have enough time to get a corrected ad in by the March deadline. Maybe that’s why there was no ad in the March issue? Perhaps Klein’s sold out of the Carcano and other weapons and just couldn’t update their new ad before the deadline?
Gary Mack
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POST-SCRIPT:
BTW, speaking of e-mails from Gary Mack and the subject of Oswald's rifle purchase, I received the following two e-mails from Gary within the last few days:
Subject: RE: Buying the Money Order
Date: 3/12/2011 11:01:42 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: Gary Mack
To: David Von Pein
Dave,
Oswald could have left JCS [Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall] at any time between 8am and 10:30 IF there was no work for him to do. Oswald was given simple tasks as they came in, so if no orders were waiting, all he could do was sit and wait.....and get paid for doing so.
I assume he'd have to check with his supervisor about taking a few minutes to go to the post office, but his time card certainly does not confirm that he was on the job every single minute. It merely shows that he was at the office and "on the clock" all day.
And maybe, just maybe, he went over there on JCS business? Or perhaps a co-worker — his supervisor? — also needed something from the PO so Oswald went and took advantage of the opportunity? In short, there are many reasons Oswald's PO visit was entirely legitimate.
It would not surprise me to learn that the Main Post Office opened at 7am, but I don't know that to be the case. I'd have to check the 1963 directories, but I sort of remember doing that years ago. Anyway, I can take a look when I get back to the office on Monday.
Gary
------------------------------------------------
Subject: Main Post Office hours
Date: 3/17/2011 5:28:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: Gary Mack
To: David Von Pein
Hi Dave,
None of the directories at the Museum show the hours at the main post office in Dallas in 1963. However, the USPS online search service shows the main distribution center today opens at 7am. But that building wasn’t there in 1963. The main post office, and presumably the distribution center, was at 400 N. Ervay in 1963 and it would likely have had the early business hours. The Ervay PO is the one that was just a few blocks from J-C-S which was located at 522 Browder. According to Google maps, the two are only 8 blocks, or ½ mile, apart.
Oswald could have walked or run, or probably ridden the bus, since Ervay was a main north-south street. For that matter, he could have bummed a ride from a co-worker.
In short, I don’t see anything that prevents Oswald from getting to the post office, then buying and sending his money order to Klein’s. As to why the envelope is postmarked in a different zone [it probably wasn't, as discussed here], I have no clue, but there’s no evidence such a practice was out of the ordinary.
Gary
DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:
Subject: Delivery Receipts for the "Hidell" weapons
Date: 3/25/2011 2:54:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: Gary Mack
To: David Von Pein
Dave,
The responses [on The Education Forum by conspiracy theorists] to what I clearly stated was speculation are truly inept. Let me demonstrate why:
1) I have no idea why the envelope was postmarked in a different zone than the main post office. Perhaps Oswald bought the money order, took it back to the office and gave it to someone else to mail and it [got] sent from somewhere else? Or is there some standard post office explanation for such things? Just because some questions have remained unanswered doesn't mean sinister explanations are always the reason.
2) So what if Oswald turned down rides from time to time? Did he always refuse? No one knows. Did he accept rides from other than the two who asked him? Same answer. Since the walking distance was 30-35 minutes from J-C-S to the main post office, odds are he accepted the ride from someone or rode the bus unless, of course, he ran which would cut the time roughly in half. According to Marina's testimony, Oswald had a bus schedule and studied it a few days earlier, though that may have been for his plan to shoot Walker. So far, there's no reason to suspect a sinister answer.
3) While I don't have access to a 1963 bus schedule, I do know the city runs more buses in morning and afternoon drive than it does midday, so taking a bus was a reasonable alternative.
4) True, there's no evidence showing Oswald to have been anywhere but J-C-S that day, but do his time sheets list his working hours AND breaks - including lunch - NO. Of course not, they just show that he was paid to be at J-C-S for a full day.....and he was.
5) As for Oswald's J-C-S times sheet, researcher Mary Ferrell, whom I had great respect for, wrote, "OSWALD'S time sheet for March 12 is evidence that he probably lied sometimes about his hours. On the day he ordered the rifle, he signed in from 8:15 a.m. to 5:15 p.m., (Exhibit no. 1855, Vol. 23, p. 605)." She then wrote that the post office opened at 8am, after noting Harry Holmes' testimony that the envelope was mailed in the early morning. The simple fact that Marina and Marguerite both admitted back then and for years later - I've heard the story directly from both women - that he posed for pictures with the guns he ordered trumps everything else.
6) Did Klein's send Oswald the larger rifle without asking? Maybe, or perhaps they enclosed a note explaining the substitution and Oswald threw it away?
7) However, I'm baffled at Gil Jesus' question about my credibility from the Jesse Ventura show. I simply told him - assuming he would ask - what I've said for years: I have questions about parts of the story, but I can't prove any of them. My honesty apparently went over his head. :)
Gary
------------------------
[End Gary Mack Quotes.]
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Gary's #1 explanation doesn't seem very likely (or logical) at all. Because why would Oswald have purchased the money order at the post office and then give it to someone else to mail when he himself (Oswald) was right there in the post office already? That makes no sense at all.
I'm not saying that Gary's #1 explanation is totally impossible--of course it's not impossible, but it doesn't seem very likely or reasonable either.
Everything else on Gary's above list, however, makes perfect sense to me, particularly his very good #6 point about the possibility of Klein's notifying Oswald in some manner that the rifle being shipped was not the exact same 36-inch model he had ordered. That, to me, seems very reasonable. And it also seems reasonable to think that Oswald would have had no really good reason to even care that the rifle he ultimately received from Klein's was four inches longer (and slightly heavier) than the thirty-six version he had originally ordered.
MORE MISC. THOUGHTS:
Regarding the U.S. Postal Money Order that Lee Harvey Oswald used to order his rifle from Klein's Sporting Goods --- I'm just curious to know how it has been verified that Oswald purchased the money order from the MAIN STREET Post Office branch in Dallas, Texas -- vs. possibly buying it at a different U.S. Post Office branch?
Is it the stamped "G.P.O." marking on the money order which signifies that the item was purchased (and stamped) at the Main Street Post Office? And does "G.P.O." stand for "General Post Office"? And would that mean he could have ONLY purchased it at the Main Street branch?
I'm not saying that Oswald didn't get the money order at the Main Street Post Office, I'm just wondering the method by which it was positively proven he did get it there?
I can find no specific reference in Harry Holmes' Warren Commission testimony as to how this fact was determined concerning where the money order was purchased. Holmes does indicate in his testimony, however, that it was obtained "at the main post office" [7 H 295]. But I can't find any info in his testimony about HOW that fact was specifically determined.
Did the Main Street Post Office possibly retain a receipt of Oswald's $21.45 money order transaction? If so, I can't find anything concerning such a record of receipt in Holmes' testimony.
I did, however, take note of this interesting section of Harry Holmes' testimony, which is a statement that conspiracy theorists like Jim DiEugenio must certainly think is nothing but a bald-faced lie. Harry Holmes said this:
"Postal Inspector McGee of Chicago called back then and said...they had received this money order on March the 13th, whereas I had been looking for March 20. So then I passed the information to the men who were looking for this money order stub to show which would designate, which would show the number of the money order, and that is the only way you could find one. I relayed this information to them and told them to start on the 13th, because he could have bought it that morning and that he could have gotten it by airmail that afternoon."
So, what U.S. Postal Inspector Harry D. Holmes is saying there is that the money order that Oswald purchased on the morning of March 12, 1963, could actually have been sent via air mail (which it was) the NEXT DAY--on March 13th--and still have gotten to Chicago on the "afternoon" of March 13, the very same day it was mailed by air mail.
Conspiracy theorists like James DiEugenio, however, believe that such fast mail service, circa 1963, was simply impossible, as the all-knowing Jimbo told us on March 8th:
"You cannot mail a money order over 700 miles from Dallas to Chicago, then have it delivered to Klein's, then have it sorted, picked up and then delivered to the bank and then have it deposited in 24 hours. Pre zip code and pre computer scanning. You cannot do that even today. Simply not possible." -- Jim DiEugenio; March 8, 2011
But, quite obviously, Jimmy's beliefs do not square with the facts. And while the business about the money order arriving and being processed and deposited by Klein's in 24 hours is, indeed, a fast transaction, the testimony of Harry Holmes (who was a UNITED STATES POSTAL INSPECTOR, so I think he should know what he's talking about when it comes to MAIL, AIR MAIL, and DELIVERY TIMES) indicates that Oswald's money order could, indeed, have been delivered to Chicago and properly processed in just 24 hours (or even less, per Holmes' testimony shown above).
Now, Jim, was Harry Holmes lying when he said what I just quoted him as saying above? (We all know what Jimmy's answer to this question is going to be, don't we now?)
David Von Pein
March 22-26, 2011
