DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:
It is my claim that we see no other Klein's orders that identify any one other rifle from the lot of 100 included with C2766 as SOLD on orders listing the Item # as C20-T750 as the LNers claim occurred for the Hidell order because there NEVER WERE ANY. I contend that every other order for C20-T750 was shipped something OTHER than M91/38FC rifles and that every order that was shipped an M91/38FC rifle shows us a completely different Item #.
In fact, we are not shown a single other order where a M91/38FC was shipped to ANYONE, for either a C20-T750 order or an order for its item number either.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID THIS.
DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:
Been having yet another email conversation with G[ary] Mack... He [doesn't] like that I want to see OTHER KLEIN'S ORDERS to substantiate the claim that Klein's was shipping a M91/38FC rifle for C20-T750 orders for months....
Any single order with a M91/38FC serial # on it next to an Item # C20-T750 would PROVE that Klein's was shipping the bigger rifle for the "TS" rifle in the ad.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Why on Earth would the FBI care about OTHER orders in the Klein's files other than the paperwork connected with the purchase of ONE particular rifle with the serial number C2766 on it (which was purchased by Oswald, of course)?
That's the only gun purchase the FBI was looking for -- the one with C2766 attached to it. And that's because they knew that the JFK murder weapon was a gun with "C2766" on it. Any other Klein's order was useless and immaterial to the FBI's investigation. Isn't this obvious?
You, David Josephs, are merely concentrating on all the wrong things (again), in order to make Oswald blameless.
Of course there were many other order forms in the Klein's files that looked similar to Waldman #7. But none of those other orders had the serial number "C2766" written on them, and therefore none of those many other Klein's orders had any bearing whatsoever on the JFK murder case.
So why in the world would those other forms for non-Oswald gun purchases be propped up in any FBI report, or the Warren Report, or anyplace else (outside a forum like this one, which is filled with people who look for excuses 24/7 to exonerate a guilty double-murderer)?
DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:
Find some [Klein's Sporting Goods] order with FC serial #'s on them and SEE WHAT WAS ORDERED.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
This gives me a perfect opportunity to utilize this same type of "YOU FIND IT" argument in a related "rifle" area of the case:
For years, conspiracy advocates like Thomas H. Purvis (and others) have claimed that there are very likely a whole bunch of additional 91/38 Carcano rifles in existence with the serial number C2766, other than just CE139 (Oswald's rifle).
Purvis, in fact, has stated in the past that there could be as many as "30 to 50" Carcano rifles floating around with the exact same serial number of C2766 adorning them. (Which is totally insane, to begin with.)
But, to date, I have never ever seen any conspiracy theorist produce any proof at all that even TWO different Carcano rifles have the exact same serial number -- and that goes for the number "C2766" or ANY other serial number. I've never seen anyone show proof that there were two rifles of ANY make or model that have an identical serial number.
The whole idea of identical serial numbers on any products is an absurd notion on its face. And it's particularly nutty to think that there are as many as "30 to 50" Carcano 91/38s floating around with C2766 on them.
The whole idea of a serial number in the first place is to give that ONE item uniqueness, which sets it apart from all others in its general class. And particularly rifles, which are often used in crimes and would require tracing via unique serial numbers.
I can't show David Josephs any other Klein's order forms for rifles (other than Waldman 7, which is the form that hangs Oswald in a number of ways). But that's not because no other forms exist. Of course similar forms did exist in the Klein's files in 1963. For Pete sake, the Klein's people were scouring those forms and records until the wee small hours of 11/23/63 looking for one specific form with "C2766" on it -- which, of course, they found. And that's the ONLY form the FBI was interested in in November 1963. Other rifle orders were meaningless then, just as they are meaningless now.
But in my "SHOW ME THE RIFLE" example, I feel the reason we haven't seen any other "C2766" Carcano rifles is because none of those do exist (other than the one marked CE139 in the National Archives).
But, maybe in the year 2499, some old gun buff will produce another ancient Mannlicher-Carcano with the number C2766 stamped on it. I'm not holding my breath, however. (Are you?)
Of course, even if I'm dead wrong, and there are 150 additional Carcano 91/38 rifles in the world today with the number "C2766" on them, it's totally immaterial anyway.
Why?
Because we know that only ONE particular Carcano rifle with C2766 on it was the weapon that killed President Kennedy in Dallas. And that one particular C2766 rifle is CE139, the one with Lee Oswald's prints on it that was found in the building where Lee Oswald worked.
DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:
Hang on a second here DVP... hijack some other thread...
This is NOT about the number of C2766 rifles ....
This is about any one of the other 99 FC rifles with serial numbers being sold as C20-T750 by Klein's from April 62 thru Feb 63...
so that the SINGLE AND ONLY EXAMPLE of this ever happening does not become the cornerstone of your evidence....
This is very simple and you are trying to confuse the issue.
[...]
I just want to see examples of other C20-T750 orders and you and GMack come flying out of the woodwork with your non-sequitor [sic] and ad hominem....
He does not see the value of reviewing the shipping patterns of Klein's related to this Item #, as expected...
You simply change the subject... also as expected....
[...]
HIDELL's order sticks out like a sore thumb.
Even you should be able to follow that... right?
DJ
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Why are you so obsessed with this, David?
I don't find it unusual in the least that we have never seen OTHER (non-Oswald) orders from Klein's files. I wouldn't EXPECT to see any non-LHO orders from Klein's ... because, as stressed previously, any non-C2766 orders were IMMATERIAL when it came to the FBI's investigation into the JFK murder case. They were searching for ONE specific serial number. No other number or order mattered. I wonder why it matters to you so much? It's crazy.
In a related topic, has anybody ever seen any other order forms filled out by Seaport Traders for other revolvers shipped to non-Oswald customers? I never have. Have you, David? And if you haven't, are you going to start belly-aching about fake evidence in the Seaport files regarding the revolver that Oswald ordered?
DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:
Thanks again Dave... you're like a broken clock, well maybe not.... even a broken clock is right twice a day....
The FBI did not want to show us any other C20-T750 orders because .... wait for it......
They would show that FC rifles were NEVER sent for orders of the Item #, until the April 1963 order... 2 months after HIDELL's order coupon.
And since they NEVER sent FC rifles -- except as recorded, IN HANDWRITING, on HIDELL's order form -- wait for it again Dave.....
We can conclude that the Klein's order form... of which the original no longer exists, and is a copy of a microfilm print... was CREATED to link HIDELL to C2766...
Unless of course, we can show the PATTERN from these Klein's orders that they were shipping the FC rifles based on Waldman writing the serial #'s and VC #'s on the orders....
What are you so afraid of Dave? These orders have just as much chance of supporting the FC shipment hypothesis, as it does refuting it.
Does evidence that MAY exonerate Oswald terrify you LNers that much?
I could actually HEAR GMack peeing his pants thru the emails when considering the implications of there not being a single other Klein's order that lists a FC rifle for a C20-T750 shipment.... that the HIDELL order was the one and only....
So rather than continue HIJACKING THIS THREAD over the serial #..... PROVE THAT KLEIN'S SENT FC RIFLES FOR ALL C20-T750 ORDERS...
Or [are] you gonna pee your pants as well and change the subject... and avoid answering even the most basic common sense questions?
Let us know where you stand on this Dave... answering these questions will not make you look any less the shill LNer than you are...
but they may teach you something about logic....
1) Do you believe C20-T750 was ordered and purchased by anyone other than HIDELL between 4/62 and 2/63?
2) Do you believe that any orders for said Item # would have the Serial # and VC # written on it JUST LIKE THE HIDELL ORDER?
3) Do you contend that starting with the cancellation of the TS order, C20-T750 orders were shipped a scoped 40" FC EACH TIME and that 40" FC rifle serial numbers would be written on these orders?
4) Do you understand that if they WERE SHIPPED FC RIFLES this would prove that Klein's WAS shipping the FC and you can now prove it?
5) Do you also understand that if the rifles shipped for C20-T750 orders was NOT the 40" FC but some other rifle(s), your case for Klein's having shipped a FC to HIDELL is severely weakened?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
A CTer who thinks LHO never ordered a rifle by mail order in '63 and who thinks ALL of the paperwork connected with that rifle purchase is fake and fraudulent is preaching to me about "logic".
Oh, my weak bladder! Have at least some pity on it, will ya Davey!
DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:
Only a fool would believe the HIDELL order was the only C20-T750 ordered in all those months...
Do you believe that any orders for said Item # would have the Serial # and VC # written on it JUST LIKE THE HIDELL ORDER?
C'mon now Dave.... since there HAD to be other C20-T750 orders... did Waldman write the serial # shipped on ALL of them?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
OF COURSE Klein's wrote the same information (serial # and VC #) on their other orders they received from other customers. Why WOULDN'T they?
But the bigger question continues to be:
Why would you, David Josephs, EXPECT the FBI to have saved or extracted from Klein's files any OTHER orders that WEREN'T for the "C2766" rifle they were specifically searching for? It makes no sense whatsoever for the FBI to say to themselves:
Well gee, guys, we'd better pull out a bunch of other order forms in these Klein's files besides just this one for the C2766 rifle, because if we don't show that other similar orders were processed in the same manner by Klein's, then a bunch of crackpot conspiracy theorists in the future just might claim that we FBI guys faked this C2766 order form. So let's pull this form here for another C20-T750 order which says that Klein's shipped a rifle with the serial number of D4577 on it; and let's save this random form too, with the serial number P9027. Neither of these rifles means a damn thing as far as the C2766 gun is concerned, but we can't be too careful, because those rabid CTers can be brutal, you know! Of course, I'm sure those same crazy CTers will now say we faked the D4577 and P9027 order forms too. So it really won't make any difference even if we saved every C20-T750 order in the Klein's files, because, as we all know here in the Bureau, the crackpot CTers of the world think the FBI would go to ANY LENGTHS to frame Lee Harvey Oswald, regardless of how many dozens of Klein's orders they had to fake and manufacture from whole cloth to do it.
DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:
I would expect the microfilm to have the other few hundred orders from that time period... or any of the other films Klein's had to store their orders.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
And that microfilm no doubt did contain that very thing (i.e., lots and lots of orders from non-"Hidell" customers). Why would you think the microfilm DIDN'T contain such orders?
You think that just because we haven't SEEN all of the other order forms on the microfilm, this means those orders never existed at all? Why would you think that?
DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:
Finding a C20-T750 order, shipped and received as a 40" FC rifle supports their assertion, that it was happening that way.
Again Dave... not a single of the other 99 rifles has ever been SEEN, let alone shipped on a real order.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
So what? You think the other 99 customers should have come forward and exclaimed: Look! I also purchased a rifle from Klein's by mail order! ?
Maybe many people in the past DID make such an exclamation about getting a Carcano from Klein's. I don't know. But I certainly don't think it's suspicious that you and I don't have personal knowledge of such a declaration from a former Klein's customer.
And I have no idea why you're saying this:
"...let alone shipped on a real order."
How on Earth did you acquire enough guts to make such a loony claim, David J.? "A real order"??? WTF?
DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:
And, as we both know, the microfilm is gone from the canister at the archives... Waldman was given a copy in early December, according to the FBI.
You think that still exists?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I haven't the slightest idea. But I have no reason whatsoever to think that William J. Waldman of Klein's Sporting Goods was lying when he testified about the Hidell/Oswald rifle purchase.
And let's face facts, David --- if Bill Waldman WASN'T a big fat liar, then Klein's definitely DID mail the C2766 rifle to "A. Hidell" in Dallas on March 20, 1963. And that's a FACT that most conspiracy theorists simply do not want to face.
My guess would be that the original microfilm was eventually returned to Klein's. It was, after all, the property of Klein's and it contained mostly material that had no bearing whatsoever on the JFK murder investigation. So why wouldn't such documents be returned to Klein's under those circumstances?
DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:
The FBI cannot find or possess any of these 100 rifles...
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Why would they have even TRIED to locate any of those other 99 rifles? Why would they even CARE?
Answer: They wouldn't care. And that's because NONE of those other 99 rifles had the serial number C2766 on them. Ergo, those rifles had NO RELATION TO THE JFK ASSASSINATION INVESTIGATION.
Only a rabid conspiracy theorist would even begin to care about this type of thing. It's just one more example (among hundreds) of CTers obsessing over something that is totally meaningless.
And I'll ask once again this related question (which went unanswered five years ago when I first posed it)....
"Has anybody ever seen any other order forms filled out by Seaport Traders for other revolvers shipped to non-Oswald customers? I never have. Have you, David [Josephs]? And if you haven't, are you going to start belly-aching about fake evidence in the Seaport files regarding the revolver that Oswald ordered?" -- DVP; August 8, 2012
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
Because DVP is so much enamored of his mentor Bugliosi, he now even copies not just his invective, but also his upside down JFK logic. Which goes like this: the critics, even though they are arguing for Oswald's defense, have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt all elements of their case.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I'd be satisfied if the conspiracy theorists could just prove ONE TINY ELEMENT of their "case for conspiracy" in the John F. Kennedy murder case, let alone "all elements of their case".
To date --- Nada!
It's also interesting to note that Jim DiEugenio seems to think everybody looking into the JFK case has to pretend we're inside a courtroom. The "Oswald was never proven guilty in a courtroom" defense is always a convenient excuse for staunch CTers to use, even though those CTers know they can't prove a conspiracy existed in the JFK case if their lives depended on it.
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
I won't even reply to the above in any particular way, since it's nothing but a typical Von Peinian non sequitur.
But let me ask DVP this:
Do you understand why the point Josephs is trying to make is important to your side?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I don't consider it important to the "Lone Assassin side" at all, quite obviously.
Because even without seeing and examining various other non-Oswald "C20-T750" rifle orders in the Klein's files, there is ample proof from the available documents that were photographed by the FBI and the Warren Commission that Klein's Sporting Goods positively and without doubt did obtain Rifle C2766 in a shipment from Crescent Firearms in New York City in February of 1963 [see Waldman Exhibit No. 3 (Carton No. 3376; Line 3) and Waldman Exhibit No. 4 (Line 836) and Waldman Exhibit No. 5], with that exact rifle then being sold by Klein's to "A. Hidell" (aka Lee Harvey Oswald) on 3/20/63 [see Waldman Exhibit No. 7].
Do conspiracy theorists think that ALL of those Waldman exhibits are fake documents? I guess many CTers (including David Josephs) must, indeed, think that every one of those Klein's documents was manufactured by the FBI in order to frame Oswald. An incredibly silly notion, to be sure.
If, Jim, you mean: Is this topic important to Lone Assassin believers, because by examining other C20-T750 Klein's orders, it would prove that the Oswald/Hidell rifle order is then legitimate? Well, since I don't think the same way CTers do, I have no reason to believe that there was any fakery or monkey business involved with the Klein's microfilmed files in the first place. So my opinion about all those Waldman exhibits I just linked above would not have changed one bit---with or without the ability to see additional Klein's rifle orders.
To me, the "suspicion" being raised by David Josephs concerning the Klein's microfilm is just another example of a conspiracist attempting to insert doubt and controversy and potential fakery into the JFK evidence where none exists (and never did exist) in the first place.
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
Davey:
Let us make it simple.
The rifle in evidence is not the rifle that the WC says Oswald allegedly ordered. You know that, so did Gary Mack.
When confronted with this serious problem in the record, which David Belin knew about and concealed, you and Gary would say, well they ran out of one and sent him the other. I personally thought that was pretty much so lame it needed two crutches. In my experience, when that happens the merchant gets back to me and gives me the option, he does not just send me something I did not order.
What David [Josephs] is saying is this: let us assume for the sake of your argument that Klein's did this weird practice. Both the FBI and the WC knew the wrong rifle was in evidence. They knew sooner or later someone would point it out. If this had happened before, then should they not have said in the record, "Well see, when they ran out of 36 inch rifles, they then sent out the 40 inch model."?
So when you say it's irrelevant, that is simply more bloviation on your part. It is directly relevant to the argument you and Gary made. In fact, it goes to the heart of the matter.
So where is the evidence that it happened?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
The evidence that it happened, Jim, is contained in Waldman #7 (in conjunction with CE773). Those two documents, in tandem, provide the PROOF that the following two things happened....
1. Lee Harvey Oswald (aka A. Hidell) ordered a 36-inch rifle from Klein's via mail order in March 1963.
2. Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago mailed a 40-inch rifle to Oswald/Hidell on March 20th, 1963.
Regardless of the REASON for #2 happening, #2 above definitely DID happen nonetheless.
~Mark VII~
DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:
I'm curious Dave... all the FBI reports between March 1963 and Nov 1963 and not one mention of a rifle... or Judyth Baker for that matter... both figments of an overactive imagination. The FBI does not mention a rifle during that time because there was no rifle to talk about...
Prove otherwise.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
There's tons of proof that Oswald owned and possessed a rifle and a revolver as of March 1963. Tons! You just refuse to believe ANY of it is legitimate. ALL of this stuff is fake (or flat-out wrong), per many CTers:
1. All (or most) of the "Waldman Exhibits" that are available in Volume 21 of the WC volumes.
2. Commission Exhibit No. 773.
3. The backyard photographs (which show Oswald with a rifle and a pistol).
4. 6 HSCA 146 (verifying the legitimacy of the backyard photos).
5. Marina Oswald's testimony where she talks about seeing the guns Lee owned.
6. Marina Oswald's testimony where she admits that she herself took the backyard photographs.
7. Jeanne DeMohrenschildt's testimony where she states that she saw a rifle in the closet of Lee Oswald's apartment on Neely Street in Dallas....
MRS. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- "And I believe from what I remember George sat down on the sofa and started talking to Lee, and Marina was showing me the house that is why I said it looks like it was the first time, because why would she show me the house if I had been there before? Then we went to another room, and she opens the closet, and I see the gun standing there. I said, what is the gun doing over there?"
8. The testimony of William J. Waldman, in which he testified that Klein's definitely did ship the C2766 Carcano to Oswald's post office box in Dallas in March of '63.
9. The handwriting on both the money order (CE788) and the order coupon and envelope for the rifle purchase (CE773). That handwriting and handprinting was positively identified as the writing of LEE HARVEY OSWALD by multiple handwriting experts for the Warren Commission and the HSCA. But CTers want to now pretend that all of those experts got it wrong (or were just flat-out lying, take your pick).
So, as we can see, there is ample proof to show that Lee Oswald ordered, paid for, and possessed the Kennedy murder weapon (and the Tippit murder weapon as well).
Do conspiracy theorists really think the FBI "planted" all of those records in BOTH the Klein's files in Chicago AND the Seaport Traders files in Los Angeles prior to each of those companies finding the pertinent "Hidell" purchase records for both the rifle and the revolver on November 23, 1963? Can CTers REALLY believe they planted all of those records---right under the noses of the various Klein's and Seaport personnel who were performing the physical searches for those documents on 11/23/63? Such a notion is absurd, of course. But I guess many conspiracists must buy it.
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
...let us grant, for the sake of argument only, that the Klein's records are real (which I do not buy at all)...
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Good! More liars! And more "fake" stuff!
Continue, Jimmy....
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
...why could the FBI not find any instance in which Klein's did what DVP is saying happened: they sent a customer the 40.2 inch rifle because they were out of the 36 inch rifle. The FBI had the records to do this with. But they did not show a precedent.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Why would they have felt the NEED to perform such a meaningless task? Just to please you conspiracy clowns? (Yeah, right.)
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
DVP never replied to the rather bizarre photos of handwritten over records [Waldman #4], which did not even bother to insert an underline.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Oh good! Jimmy thinks still MORE stuff is fake! Lovely!
Any end to the fakery in this case, Jimbo? Any end at all?
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
And [DVP] never asks the question of why it was Waldman testifying anyway.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Waldman was the Vice President of Klein's. And Waldman himself even told the FBI that he (Waldman) was, indeed, the proper person to subpoena if testimony became necessary (with respect to the microfilm, at any rate). So what's your beef now, Jimmy?
Shall I add Bill Waldman to your "Liars List" too? (I'm sure he's already high up on your list anyway, right James? Why of course he is. Otherwise, Klein's sent the rifle to Oswald. And you'll never admit that fact in a billion years.)
DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:
No Dave, the evidence was not PLANTED... it was CREATED AFTER THE FACT.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
But it was employees of KLEIN'S and SEAPORT TRADERS who did the actual "digging up" of the "Hidell" documents. It wasn't the FBI who did that digging [see WCR, p.118 and WCR, p.174]. They wouldn't have had the slightest idea where to look. So, do you think some of the Klein's and Seaport employees were part of a cover-up plot too?
As for Ruth Paine's "No" answers....
She simply did not see the rifle when it was unpacked from her car. Why is that impossible? She had no reason to take INVENTORY of every last item owned by Lee and Marina. You're expecting too much from Ruth.
But we KNOW, via Marina's testimony, that there WAS definitely a rifle in that blanket in Ruth Paine's garage in October of '63. (But you don't believe a word uttered by Marina, do you?)
BTW, if Ruth was REALLY out to frame Oswald, then why on Earth didn't she attempt to FRAME him further by saying "Yes, I saw the rifle" when she was asked? Any idea why her patsy-framing efforts were so anemic in this regard?
DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:
No Dave... it was Waldman and Scibor at Klein's.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Just as I said --- it was KLEIN'S people doing the actual search for documents. Not the FBI.
So both Waldman and Scibor are cover-up operatives and liars, eh?
DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:
Gee Dave, how much BS from Marina's mouth will you believe?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I think a better question is this one:
How many people do CTers want to label as "liars" and/or "cover-up operatives" in the JFK case?
The number must surely be approaching triple digits by now.
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
DVP: Just as I said --- it was KLEIN'S people doing the actual search for documents. Not the FBI.
Mr. Josephs just wrote that the FBI was there until four o'clock! Were they just drinking coffee or listening to baseball games?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
But it was the KLEIN'S people searching through their OWN files. Not the FBI. The FBI agents probably WERE just sitting around drinking coffee and waiting for the Klein's employees to find the right "C2766" order (which, of course, they eventually did find).
BTW, there's no baseball in late November, Jimmy. But if you like to listen to baseball games, I can help with that, here.
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
Ok, how about basketball Davey?
Speaking of which--another nice pivot by you.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
That's better, Jimmy. (But I'm not a very big hoops fan, so I don't have any classic basketball contests archived. Sorry.)
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
Why is the canister empty today if it backs up the official story?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I haven't the slightest idea why it's empty. (But are we SURE that the "empty canister" story is the absolute truth? Forgive me if I don't take everything said by a CTer as Gospel. Although I did earlier speculate that the FBI returned the original microfilm to Klein's at some point in time. So an "empty canister" would be perfectly consistent with that theory.)
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
Why are the entries blanked out and written over?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Every single entry seen in Waldman #4 looks identical on all pages. You think the evil-doers faked EVERY line on all pages of Waldman 4? Please, Jim, tell me WHY they needed to fake EVERY serial number on those pages, when only ONE shows "C2766"?
And is this "C2766" reference a fake too, Jim?
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
And why would the Vice President be there of all people? Like he was handling this stuff on a day to day basis?
They might do that at a local KFC, but not a company as big as Klein's.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Well, Jimmy, maybe it was because this was the investigation into the murder of THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. Ya think THAT might mean a person kinda "high up" in the Klein's executive chain just MIGHT want to get involved?
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
Ever heard of a guy named J. A. Mueller?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
OK, Jim. I'll bite. Who is J.A. Mueller?
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
Ok, you don't know.
He was in charge of the receiving department at Klein's.
He could have helped on the whole issue of when did C2766 come into Chicago.
Since he signed off on incoming shipments.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Okay, Jim. Thanks for the info. I don't think I had heard that name (J.A. Mueller) in the past. If I ever did hear of him, I've forgotten about it. :)
But, anyway, I'd say the people that Klein's utilized to locate the Oswald rifle order on the morning of 11/23/63 did a very effective job --- even without the assistance of Mr. Mueller. By 4:00 AM, they had the information the FBI was seeking. Not too bad, I'd say.
MICHAEL WALTON SAID:
DVP, Josephs posted a photo above showing the empty canister at the NA [National Archives] of all places.
I know you love the OJ story, so that would be like the NA showing a gift box containing the bloody glove....but there's no glove in it :)
I just cannot get over the fact that when the FBI was looking at the files, and if they were all kosher two months before and after, that they would have shown all of those files to strengthen their case.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Where did Josephs do that? I don't see any picture of an EMPTY film canister.
If you're talking about Cadigan Exhibit No. 1 (which Josephs did post previously), that's not a picture of an empty canister. That's a 1964 picture for WC volume 19. The microfilm is there in that photo.
DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:
Now you can see thru metal Dave?
We have a canister... that's it. FBI #D-77. Whether there is film in there or not isn't anything you can know Dave.... but nice try.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
What do you think the thing inside the white circle is, David J.? What does that look like to you?....
W. TRACY PARNELL SAID:
Good catch DVP, I didn't even notice it. Only makes sense if they were going to get rid of the microfilm why not just get rid of everything? Why put an empty spool and box into evidence?
MICHAEL WALTON SAID:
Good catch dvp. I still would love to see what's on the film.
DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:
IDK Dave... that you think it's film is amusing enough.
[...]
Notice the order #'s written on the box? Too bad we don't have that film so we can see what's on those other orders.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Only you care about such meaningless trivia. The other orders on the Klein's microfilm are not important in the slightest way in trying to determine whether or not Oswald was shipped Mannlicher-Carcano Rifle No. C2766. You're obsessing over things that mean nothing.
DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:
That you don't understand the entire case is about the details and minutia is your problem, not mine.
Why Tracy? So those with less initiative would think the film was in there.
W. TRACY PARNELL SAID:
But you say [John] Armstrong saw the empty canister, so anyone could go there and see it and reveal the plot. Just get rid of it all and say it's lost.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
FWIW....
There's also this Warren Commission testimony of FBI agent James Cadigan
(at 7 H 419; emphasis is DVP's):
MELVIN A. EISENBERG -- "Mr. Cadigan, I now hand you an item consisting of a roll of microfilm labeled D-77, and ask you whether you are familiar with that roll of microfilm?"
JAMES C. CADIGAN -- "Yes; I am."
MR. EISENBERG -- "That microfilm will be marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 1."
(The article referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 1.)
MR. EISENBERG -- "Mr. Cadigan, was Exhibit No. 773 developed from a negative contained in Cadigan Exhibit No. 1?"
MR. CADIGAN -- "Yes; it was printed from that roll."
DAVID VON PEIN ALSO SAID:
FWIW #2....
There is also this photo of the D-77 roll of microfilm, Waldman Exhibit No. 6. And, as you can easily see, there is no "canister" shown in this picture at all. Just a box and the reel of microfilm:
Plus, there's this Warren Commission testimony of Klein's Vice President William Waldman (starting at 7 H 365; DVP's emphasis):
DAVID W. BELIN -- "I'm handing you what has been marked as an FBI Exhibit D-77 and ask you if you know what this is?"
WILLIAM J. WALDMAN -- "This is a microfilm record of mail order transactions for a given period of time. It was turned over by us to the FBI."
MR. BELIN -- "Do you know when it was turned over to the FBI?"
MR. WALDMAN -- "It was turned over to them on November 23, 1963."
MR. BELIN -- "Now, you are reading from the carton containing that microfilm. Do you know whose initials are on there?"
MR. WALDMAN -- "Yes; the initials on here are mine and they were put on the date on which this was turned over to the FBI concerned with the investigation."
MR. BELIN -- "You have on your premises a machine for looking at the microfilm prints?"
MR. WALDMAN -- "Yes."
MR. BELIN -- "And you can make copies of the microfilm prints?"
MR. WALDMAN -- "Yes."
MR. BELIN -- "I wonder if we can adjourn the deposition upstairs to take a look at these records in the microfilm and get copies of the appropriate records that you found on the evening of November 22."
MR. WALDMAN -- "Yes."
(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the microfilm machine.)
MR. BELIN -- "Mr. Waldman, you have just put the microfilm which we call D-77 into your viewer which is marked a Microfilm Reader-Printer, and you have identified this as No. 270502, according to your records. Is this just a record number of yours on this particular shipment?"
MR. WALDMAN -- "That's a number which we assign for identification purposes."
MR. BELIN -- "And on the microfilm record, would you please state who it shows this particular rifle was shipped to?"
MR. WALDMAN -- "Shipped to a Mr. A.--last name H-i-d-e-l-l, Post Office Box 2915, Dallas, Tex."
MR. BELIN -- "And does it show any serial number or control number?"
MR. WALDMAN -- "It shows shipment of a rifle bearing our control number VC-836 and serial number C-2766."
[...]
MR. BELIN -- "Mr. Waldman, I'm going to mark what has FBI Exhibit D-77 on it as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 6, being the container with your initials and the microfilm record itself, which you placed on the microfilm reader and about which you have just testified upstairs."
[...]
MR. BELIN -- "Now, Mr. Waldman, perhaps we'd better further identify the microfilm which show your control numbers. We marked the microfilm as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 6. Do you have any control numbers on this at all which indicate which microfilm this is?"
MR. WALDMAN -- "This is our film No. 38, which covers our transactions Nos. 269688 through 270596."
MR. BELIN -- "And I believe that you already testified to the control number or transaction number that appears on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 as being number what?"
MR. WALDMAN -- "270502."
MR. BELIN -- "Mr. Waldman, referring to Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3, which are the serial numbers of the 100 rifles which were made in this shipment from Crescent Firearms to you, and Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 5, which is the invoice from Crescent Firearms which has stamped on it that it was paid by your company on March 4, is there any way to verify that this payment pertained to rifles which are shown on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3?"
MR. WALDMAN -- "The forms submitted by Crescent Firearms showing serial numbers of rifles included in the shipment covered by their invoice No. 3178 indicate that the rifle carrying serial No. C2766 was included in that shipment. .... Those forms are your exhibit captioned Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3. Now, our payment voucher No. 28966 of March 1, 1963, which is your Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 5, shows in the lower portion, second column from the left, the number 3178, which ties in with Crescent Firearms invoice No. 3178."
MR. BELIN -- "And you have before you a carbon copy of a check that was written by your company to Crescent Firearms in the amount of $850, and attached to it, the attachment that shows it's for invoice No. 3178?"
MR. WALDMAN -- "That's correct."
MR. BELIN -- "Mr. Waldman, do your records show whether or not the rifle was shipped with the scope mounted on it, or is there any way that you know whether or not it was?"
MR. WALDMAN -- "Our catalog No. C20-T750, which was the number indicated on the coupon prepared by A. Hidell, designates a rifle with scope attached. And we would have so shipped it unless the customer specifically specified that he did not wish to have it attached. There is nothing in our records to indicate that there was any request made by the customer, and therefore we would have every reason to believe that it was shipped as a rifle with scope mounted."
MR. BELIN -- "Do you know whether or not the rifle would have been broken down in shipment, or whether or not it would have been shipped fully assembled?"
MR. WALDMAN -- "It was customary for us to ship all of these rifles and scopes fully assembled, and I would have no reason to believe that this particular one would have been shipped otherwise."
[...]
MR. BELIN -- "Mr. Waldman, when we testified upstairs in front of the microfilm machine, was the microfilm itself more clear or less clear than the photostats or prints that have been made from it?"
MR. WALDMAN -- "More clear."
MR. BELIN -- "So it would be possible to read items on the microfilm itself that might not come out clear on the printed copies?"
MR. WALDMAN -- "That's correct."
DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:
So who stole the film from the Archives, Dave...and why?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
What makes you think anybody "stole" it?
DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:
I still find it quite amazing that in all these years we've NEVER heard about a Klein's Carcano with any one of the other 99 serial numbers. You'd think that would have been quite a find... and would prove they existed.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
But, David, we know that Klein's was selling Carcano rifles to customers well PRIOR to the time when Oswald purchased his Carcano from Klein's. Waldman Exhibit No. 1 proves that fact.
So we could also ask:
Why hasn't anybody ever come forward, AT ANY POINT IN TIME, to say that they purchased a gun from Klein's that is similar to the C2766 Oswald rifle?
As far as I know, no one has ever come forward to make such a claim about purchasing ANY RIFLE from Klein's Sporting Goods, regardless of whether it was a gun that was part of the "100 rifles" in the Crescent-to-Klein's February 1963 shipment or not. And you surely aren't going to claim that ALL Klein's rifle sales that PRE-DATE the date of the Oswald/Hidell sale in March of '63 are tainted or faked in some manner, are you?
So, since we can't really explain the total LACK of people coming forward to say they bought ANY similar Mannlicher-Carcano rifle from Klein's back through the years, even though you and I both know that Klein's positively DID sell many hundreds (maybe thousands?) of Carcano rifles to various mail-order customers prior to (and for several months after) March of 1963, then that fact would seem to severely diminish your argument when you claim that many people should be coming out of the woodwork to say they purchased a rifle from Klein's that was specifically part of the Crescent-to-Klein's shipment of 100 rifles that also included Oswald's C2766 weapon.
David Von Pein
August 5-8, 2012
April 9-12, 2017
