BEN HOLMES SAID:
There's testimony of *TWO* unidentified men walking down the stairs [of the Texas School Book Depository].
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Point me to that testimony.
BEN HOLMES SAID:
David...
PUBLICLY ACKNOWLEDGE that you have no idea whatsoever about two unknown men coming down the stairs, and found in testimony, and I'll cite it for you.
An honest man would have no problem with that... I suspect that you'll refuse to publicly admit that you don't know this... because you probably already do.
Which begs the question of why you're asking...
And why you snipped virtually the entire post.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Boy, what a bunch of E.G. Marshall dramatics we have here! (LOL break.) You sure do love to play games, don't you Ben? You're hilarious. Do I need to take an oath or sign any official Dallas Sheriff's Department affidavits before I "PUBLICLY ACKNOWLEDGE" my ignorance on this topic? (I want this to be "official", after all.)
Anyway....
For the record, Your Honor and ladies and gentlemen of the jury and defense counsel Ben Holmes (aka Mr. Prick)....
I do hereby "PUBLICLY ACKNOWLEDGE" that I, David Robert Von Pein of the USA (North America, Milky Way) have no memory of reading any testimony regarding the two (alleged) men who were (allegedly) seen by someone coming down the back stairs in the northwest corner of the Texas School Book Depository Building located at 411 Elm Street in Dallas, Texas, USA, North America, Earth, Milky Way, at approximately 12:30 to 12:31 PM Central Standard Time on Friday, November 22nd, 1963 AD.
Signed (under oath),
David R. Von Pein
Sworn on this date of April 20th, the year of our Lord 2017 AD.
(Member FDIC.)
(Warning: May contain peanuts and milk products.)
BEN HOLMES SAID:
Yep... I want your ignorance publicly asserted. Now I'll be happy to provide the citation.
Usually, believers pretend not to know something to avoid debate... and refuse to admit that they don't know it... but as you've asserted that you didn't know this, then I'm happy to cite for it.
It's amusing that David tries to turn his ignorance into a joke... but here's the cite that's been waiting for him:
http://historymatters.com/wc/wh3/html
Simply read til you find his description of two unidentified men coming down the stairs. Page 284 should be your first stop... (I know how much you hate to read the testimony.)
And when you come back - you can PUBLICLY ACKNOWLEDGE that this statement of mine was just as accurate as all the other statements that you refused to respond to.
Or show your cowardice again... who cares?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
LOL. Holmes cited a police officer's testimony (Luke Mooney), who, several minutes after the shooting, saw "some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs". Keep in mind that Mooney by that time had already engaged in a search outside the building down by the railroad yards before he ever entered the Depository. So there was ample time for several policemen to have entered the TSBD before Mooney.
I thought Holmes was going to enlighten us with a "bombshell" witness who saw people on the stairs within a minute or two of the assassination who could conceivably have been "assassins".
I should have known Holmes' claims would turn out to be as bogus as he is.
BEN HOLMES SAID:
Yep... two UNIDENTIFIED men - you can't put names to them, and neither can anyone else. Mooney thought that they were police officers, but other than haircut & demeanor, HE HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO GO ON. He didn't know them, he didn't recognize them - he HAD NO CLUE AT ALL other than haircut & demeanor.
It was merely his opinion... and as such, with no corroborative evidence, is nothing more than his opinion. Given more information than he had, it's easy to see that these can very well be the two men seen on the 6th floor by multiple eyewitnesses.
He [Luke Mooney] was *IN* the building before the sniper's nest was discovered. That puts him in the building fairly early on.
Waiting until the police were in the building is a gutsy, but fairly safe way for two men with a police background (or perhaps even active duty) to escape the building.
The timing could be as soon as 5 or 6 minutes after the assassination.
The question *YOU* need to answer is why were "police" *LEAVING THE BUILDING* before the sniper's nest was found?
So yes, it's likely indeed that these two unidentified men were the assassins. There's **NOTHING** you can point to that contradicts that possibility... NOTHING AT ALL. (If there were, surely you'd have spoken up, right David?)
I should have known that you'd refuse to publicly acknowledge THAT MY STATEMENT WAS ABSOLUTELY 100% CORRECT AND NOT MISLEADING IN **ANY** WAY.
And indeed, YOU'RE A LIAR - because there's nothing "bogus" about my statement **AT ALL**. Nor were you able to point out anything "bogus" about it. YOU'RE SIMPLY LYING, DAVID VON PEIN... IF MY STATEMENT WERE "BOGUS" - YOU'D BE ABLE TO QUOTE WHAT WAS "BOGUS" - AND CITE THE EVIDENCE.
But you can't.
But it's interesting to note for the record what David refuses to refute.
David refuses to show that the rifle was in the Paines' garage.
David refuses to show the legitimacy of the paper bag, and ABSOLUTELY REFUSED to address the paper bag that was mailed to Oswald.
David refused to address the issue of identifiable prints on the rifle.
David refused to correct the OUTRIGHT LIE that someone (other than Oswald) set up the sniper's nest without leaving fingerprints.
David refused to correct the BLATANT LIE that no-one was seen coming down the stairs after the assassination.
Tell us David - did you ask for any help from John McAdams? You seem to be slipping...
If a failure to refute is your way of accepting all of these issues, you're well on your way to becoming a critic.
Keep up the good work!
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I think you're silly, Ben.
I do lots of "refuting" HERE.
REPLAY....
BEN HOLMES SAID:
The question *YOU* need to answer is why were "police" *LEAVING THE BUILDING* before the sniper's nest was found?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
What makes you think they were "LEAVING THE BUILDING"? Mooney saw them coming down the northwest staircase at some point between the second floor (which is where Mooney got on the stairs in the first place after taking the elevator to the 2nd floor) and the sixth floor.
But there's nothing in Mooney's testimony to indicate on EXACTLY WHAT FLOOR he saw those men. He might have seen them between floors five and six for all we know, with those men (whom Mooney thought were deputy sheriffs) then stopping to search the fifth floor.
So when Ben Holmes says that the men Luke Mooney saw on the stairs shortly after the shooting were "LEAVING THE BUILDING", Holmes is doing what all conspiracy theorists always do 24/7 --- he's SPECULATING heavily.
The men Mooney saw were almost certainly just exactly what he thought they were, they were police officers who went into the building for the same purpose Mooney did. And those officers very likely were not "leaving the building" at the time Mooney saw them. They were merely walking from one of the Depository floors to another in order to search for the assassin or to search for evidence (just like Luke Mooney was doing that day).
Is my last paragraph "speculation" too? You bet it is, because we don't know for sure who the men were that were seen on the stairs by Mooney that day. But it's very reasonable speculation, IMO, given the sum total of the evidence in this case which indicates that Lee Harvey Oswald was the only person who was shooting at President Kennedy in Dealey Plaza on November 22, 1963.
ANOTHER REPLAY....
BEN HOLMES SAID:
There's testimony of *TWO* unidentified men walking down the stairs.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
BTW,
Luke Mooney never once specified the exact number of people that he saw coming down the back staircase in the TSBD. Mooney merely said that he "met some other officers coming down". He never said he specifically saw "TWO" men on the stairs. It could have been only two men he encountered, yes. But it could have been three or four too. We just don't know, because Mooney never provided that detailed information in his Warren Commission testimony.
So when Ben Holmes attempts to place a definitive number ("TWO") on this incident, Ben is not telling the truth. Because Mooney did not say "two" at all. This is a relatively small and insignificant point, yes. But it helps to illustrate the sloppiness and recklessness of a conspiracy theorist named Ben Holmes.
REPLAY #3....
BEN HOLMES SAID:
Waiting until the police were in the building is a gutsy, but fairly safe way for two men with a police background (or perhaps even active duty) to escape the building.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Not a bad point for a conspiracy theorist to make, I must admit. But to assume that the multiple people (not necessarily just "two", as Ben incorrectly asserts) seen by Luke Mooney on the stairs shortly after the assassination "likely indeed...were the assassins" is, in my opinion, simply a case of very wishful thinking being engaged in by CTer Ben Holmes, especially since we know that the Book Depository was definitely crawling with POLICEMEN within a very few minutes of the shots being fired in Dealey Plaza. And we also know that some of those police officers were, indeed, moving UP and then DOWN those back stairs shortly after the shooting in their attempt to locate an assassin or the physical evidence of an assassin having been in that building.
Therefore, it's much more likely that the multiple individuals seen on the staircase by Deputy Sheriff Luke Mooney on 11/22/63 were just what Mooney thought they were -- police officers.
Another possibility is that the men Mooney saw on the stairs could have been reporter Kent Biffle and WFAA-TV cameraman Tom Alyea, who entered the TSBD building within a very few minutes of the assassination (and before the police had a chance to seal off the building at approximately 12:37 PM).
BEN HOLMES SAID:
What makes you think that Oswald was leaving the building? .... A believer such as yourself HAS NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER describing Oswald as leaving the building when he was heading downstairs. Why would you object to unknown men in the building being described THE SAME WAY **YOU'D** DESCRIBE OSWALD?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Are you REALLY crazy enough to ask that question, Ben? (I guess you are since you just asked it.)
How do you think Lee Oswald got to his roominghouse in Oak Cliff by approximately 1:00 PM if he did not, in fact, leave the Depository building very shortly after he was last seen inside the TSBD Building by Mrs. Robert Reid at about 12:32 PM?
So there's the (obvious) difference, Ben. In Oswald's case, we KNOW via other evidence and other information (e.g., the bus ride, the cab ride, and Earlene Roberts having seen Oswald rush into his roominghouse) that Lee Harvey Oswald positively DID "leave the building" right after he was seen by Mrs. Reid.
But in the instance of the "unidentified men" seen by Luke Mooney somewhere within the Book Depository Building shortly after the assassination, we have no clue as to the specific identities of those men, so therefore we can't possibly KNOW for certain where they went after being seen by Mooney that day.*
* Was it REALLY necessary to explain something so incredibly obvious? Jiminy Christmas.
BEN HOLMES SAID:
They [the unidentified men seen by Luke Mooney on the TSBD staircase] went OUT OF THE BUILDING. That's a fact.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
It's not a "fact" at all. You're just making up a theory that the men had to be "LEAVING THE BUILDING". There's no evidence for that at all---except your silly theories about those men being "the assassins".
BEN HOLMES SAID:
You wish to pretend, with no evidence whatsoever, that they were merely bypassing the 6th floor to begin searching the 2nd... or whatever floor you imagine.
After Luke Mooney saw them, THEY DISAPPEARED FROM ALL EVIDENCE & TESTIMONY.
You cannot show otherwise.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
We don't even know who they were. You don't. I don't. Mooney didn't. So what you just said—"THEY DISAPPEARED"—is nothing but more speculation on the part of a rabid CTer. Nothing more.
BEN HOLMES SAID:
And since we don't know who they are, THEY CANNOT POSSIBLY BE UNKNOWN ASSASSINS... the two who were seen at the 6th floor by multiple eyewitnesses... right David?
SINCE WE DON'T KNOW WHO THEY WERE, ONE OF THEM MUST HAVE BEEN YOUR FATHER.
See how easy this speculation game is?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You expect Mooney to be familiar with every cop and detective in Dallas, do you?
Ben = Loopy.
BEN HOLMES SAID:
Was it REALLY necessary to school you on such simple logic, David?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You fail the "simple logic" test every time, Ben. This discussion was no different.
David Von Pein
April 20-23, 2017
