WAS JFK'S MOTORCADE ROUTE
CHANGED AT THE LAST MINUTE?


In the years since President John F. Kennedy's assassination in 1963, many conspiracy theorists have latched onto the completely unsupportable notion that the motorcade route was changed at the eleventh hour just prior to President Kennedy's drive through downtown Dallas on November 22, 1963.

The "Motorcade Route Was Changed" allegation is pure malarkey....and provably so. (Unless the conspiracists who continually tout such an unsupportable theory actually believe, and can prove, that the Warren Commission somehow "faked" Commission Exhibits 1362 and 1363, which consist of photographs of two Dallas newspapers, both from Tuesday, November 19, 1963, which verify the finalized motorcade route, including the turn from Houston Street onto Elm Street, which is a turn that took JFK's car directly in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building, from where Lee Harvey Oswald shot and killed President Kennedy.)

CE1362 and CE1363 were utilized as official exhibits by the Warren Commission to demonstrate the fact that the motorcade route was never changed [Warren Report, p.643], and to also demonstrate the fact that JFK's assassin, Lee Oswald, could very easily have had ample foreknowledge as to the precise motorcade route through Dallas that the President would travel on November 22nd [WR, p.642].

Do conspiracy theorists think that both of those WC newspaper exhibits were "fabricated" in some fashion (with the references to "Elm Street" somehow added into the text of the two newspaper editions at a later time by cover-up agents)?

Obviously, such crazy fakery and skullduggery never happened, which means that the whole idea of the motorcade route being "altered" at the last minute (in order to conveniently take the President close to the building where the supposed "Patsy" was located) is a specious idea to begin with.

The motorcade route was never "changed" from its original configuration. To begin with, the route wasn't even finalized until November 18th, just four days prior to Kennedy's visit to Dallas. The route was then published in BOTH Dallas papers on November 19th.

On November 20 and November 22, the Dallas papers then mentioned the general routing of the motorcade (but lacking any mention of Houston and Elm Streets specifically). But this lack of "Elm Street" detail in the two later papers on the 20th and the 22nd can't possibly be used by conspiracy buffs to promote a "Route Was Changed" theory, unless these buffs actually want to believe that the route was changed TWICE -- with the last "change" mirroring the exact Houston-to-Elm route that was already published in the November 19 papers, which is the EARLIEST of the Dallas newspaper examples I mentioned above.

And, as an aside here, Oswald didn't even obtain his job at the Book Depository until the middle of October '63, a full month prior to the finalized motorcade route being decided upon. The timing of these events, therefore, illustrates how utterly ridiculous the largely-accepted theory of "Oswald Was An Innocent Patsy" really is.

Here's a direct passage from the Warren Commission Report (an outstanding document, regardless of what any CTers believe):

"On November 19, the Times-Herald afternoon paper detailed the precise route: 'From the airport, the President's party will proceed to Mockingbird Lane to Lemmon and then to Turtle Creek, turning south to Cedar Springs. The motorcade will then pass through downtown on Harwood and then west on Main, turning back to Elm at Houston and then out Stemmons Freeway to the Trade Mart'." -- WCR; Page 40*

* Footnote attached, "54", which, per the Warren Report's footnotes index, leads us to CE1362, which is this Exhibit....

COMMISSION EXHIBIT 1362

....which positively PROVES that the "Elm St. turn" was being planned as of the date of that paper (11/19/63).

Page 40 of the WR also tells us that the Dallas morning paper on November 19th also mentions the specific turn onto Elm Street -- "Main to Houston, Houston to Elm". With a footnote ("55"), taking us to CE1363, which is this Exhibit....

COMMISSION EXHIBIT 1363

Moreover, the turn onto Elm Street was essential in order to avoid the concrete divider in the middle of Main Street that would have caused even greater violation of standard Secret Service practice with respect to the slowing down of the President's limousine. Sans the Elm Street turn, JFK's car (as well as the three bulky press buses at the rear of the motorcade) would have had to negotiate this obstruction on Main Street....

COMMISSION EXHIBIT 2116



There are also these additional pertinent facts concerning the motorcade routing (taken directly from the Warren Report):

"To reach the Trade Mart [President Kennedy's destination on 11/22/63] from Main Street the [Secret Service] agents decided to use the Stemmons Freeway (Route No. 77), the most direct route. The only practical way for westbound traffic on Main Street to reach the northbound lanes of the Stemmons Freeway is via Elm Street, which Route No. 77 traffic is instructed to follow in this part of the city." -- WCR; Page 32

"The Elm Street approach to the Stemmons Freeway is necessary in order to avoid the traffic hazards which would otherwise exist if right turns were permitted from both Main and Elm into the freeway. .... Traffic proceeding west on Main is directed to turn right at Houston in order to reach the Dallas-Fort Worth Turnpike, which has the same access road from Elm Street as does the Stemmons Freeway." -- WCR; Page 39

The above section of WCR text from page 39 is followed by footnote number "46", which takes the reader to a reference to "CE2967", which is a photo showing a sign on Main Street (just east of Houston Street) that specifically instructs traffic to turn right on Houston in order to gain access to the Turnpike (and, hence, to the Stemmons Freeway ramp as well).

COMMISSION EXHIBIT 2967

As can be easily seen from these WC exhibits, the motorcade needed the Houston-to-Elm turn to gain access to Stemmons Freeway. And as the exhibits further show, Oswald had ample time to read about the motorcade route (including the specifics regarding the Elm Street turn) prior to his November 21 trip to Ruth Paine's home in Irving to retrieve his rifle.

Given these facts about the published motorcade route, Lee Harvey Oswald could (and obviously did) know about the President's planned parade route through Dealey Plaza when he took his "package" to work with him (and told a lie about its contents) on the morning of the assassination on Friday, November 22nd, 1963.

Plus -- It's always been my opinion that Oswald would probably have attempted the assassination even if JFK's car didn't proceed down Elm Street. If the car had gone straight down Main Street, Oswald could still have attempted the shooting. It would have been a longer and more difficult shot, true. But, in my opinion, he still probably would have attempted it. Sadly, he had an even better chance to kill the President via the much easier "On Elm Street" target.

The people who continue to spout the crackpot "Motorcade Route Was Changed" balderdash should not even be discussing any aspect of the John F. Kennedy murder case in the first place...for it's obvious that such a person has no idea what he/she is talking about in so discussing.

David Von Pein
November 24, 2006


===============================


RELATED DISCUSSION....


PAZ MARVERDE SAID:

Who changed the motorcade route?

I'm deeply interested in this question. Who ordered the dog leg deviation so fatal for JFK? Confirmed it was Cabell? Any news from the latest docs?


JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

Paz:

In my opinion, the best answer to this is in Vince Palamara's book. From my web site, this is part of my review of Survivor's Guilt which addresses the issue.

What Vince does here is he shows with multi sources that, as Jim Garrison first stated, the route was altered. People like the shill [John] McAdams, who have said it was not, just did not do any research on the subject. Of course, if he had and discovered this, he would have hushed it up anyway.

Anybody who has ever been to Dealey Plaza, and stood atop the trestle and looked down at the motorcade path, I mean you just shake your head in disgust. I have said it before and I will say it now: it was like the hit team designed the route. What more could you have asked for? The fact that the WC never called anyone on the carpet for this route or pointed out all the problems it posed for protection, that says all you need to know about them.


JAMES DiEUGENIO ALSO SAID:

As late as November 14th, there was no dogleg on the motorcade route.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

But since Kenneth O'Donnell didn't officially decide to hold the luncheon at the Trade Mart until that exact day you just mentioned---November 14th [see Warren Report, p.31]---then of course there was no dogleg as of that date. There was no definitive motorcade route at all as of November 14th. The final motorcade route wasn't announced until "the afternoon of November 18th" [WCR; p.32].


JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

Palamara later adds that the final route was not actually decided upon until November 20th.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

That's ridiculous, and Vince Palamara has to know it. The Houston-to-Elm dogleg was described in the November 19th Dallas newspapers, which makes perfect sense considering what I just said above about the route being officially announced on Nov. 18. Therefore, the dogleg was part of the motorcade route as of November 18th, otherwise the Dallas Morning News couldn't have printed the route in its paper on the morning of the 19th [as seen in CE1363].

Who does Palamara think he's kidding?

Some conspiracy myths just refuse to die, don't they? And "The Motorcade Route Was Changed" junk is apparently one such myth that I guess will be with us until the end of time.


JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

Davey:

Let us turn the tables on you.

Were all his [Palamara's] witnesses lying who said they were introduced to the route about 24 hours before the motorcade?

This would be Batchelor, Bellah, Jones and Dale. Hmm.

Now, as anyone with any knowledge of the case knows, there was a battle royal over this. On the one hand you had Bruno and the Washington contingent who did not want it at the Trade Mart, while you had Connally, the Secret Service and Harris who pushed for it. And in fact, that battle went on for weeks and different notices were posted.

And why ignore this during your tantrum: "As the HSCA attorney in charge of the motorcade route inquiry wrote, "Any map of Dallas in 1963 shows that it was easy to reach the Trade Mart on streets that join Main on the West side of the overpass"."

That explains why even if the Connally people had won out, that weird route was not necessary.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I have no idea why anyone would say they were "introduced to the route" only 24 hours prior to the motorcade---because that is kind of crazy given the PROVABLE FACT that the Houston-to-Elm turn was announced IN THE PAPERS on November 19. So the press and the public knew it on Nov. 19---we KNOW that for a fact (unless you want to now claim that the Dallas Morning News and Times Herald papers that appear in the Warren Commission volumes are phony and fake newspapers).

And as far as Assistant Chief of Police Charles Batchelor (specifically) is concerned, we know (via Page 32 of the Warren Report) that he, HIMSELF, was riding along with Secret Service Agents Sorrels and Lawson on the dry run of the motorcade route that was done on November 18. So Batchelor was certainly aware of the "dogleg" route as of that date. Why he would claim otherwise can only elicit a shrug from this writer.


JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

What you quoted from the WC was a letter by Rowley. Hmm.

This is the guy who tried to hide the 11/22/63 press conference with Perry from the WC. He also tried to conceal the drunken escapades of the Secret Service the night before until 4 AM. Lawson is also used. But if you read Palamara, he was in on the last minute decision.

And why you keep on saying that the route was solidified on November 19th because it was in the papers, that does not at all justify itself as an argument.

If it did, then the route pictured on 11/22 on the front page of the Dallas Morning News would not have appeared: it does not show the doglegs, Davey Boy. (Destiny Betrayed, first edition, p. 57)

Now, much more revealing than anything you have offered is a summary of the DMN coverage I did for that book. On November 16th, the motorcade was going down Main Street, no doglegs. On November 19th, the route described included the doglegs. But a day later, the doglegs were eliminated. And on the day of the assassination, the pictured route continued in that vein.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Jim,

You're just flat-out wrong about the "dogleg" turns onto Houston Street and Elm Street being "eliminated" on Wednesday, November 20, 1963. No such "elimination" of those two turns occurred at all. And I don't see how even you, a dedicated conspiracy theorist, can believe such a thing either---because in order for you to actually believe that those two turns were "eliminated" on Nov. 20th, you'd have to actually believe the motorcade route was changed twice after the Dallas Morning News published its "Houston to Elm" version of the motorcade route on Tuesday morning, November 19th. You'd have to believe the route was then changed on November 20th (with this change taking the cars straight down Main Street), and then you'd have to believe the route was changed back again to the same "Houston to Elm" version of the route that was previously reported in both Dallas papers on November 19th. That's kind of crazy if you ask me.

Also, if you look at the article regarding the motorcade route that appeared in the November 20th Dallas Morning News—which can be found in both CD320 and CE1364—it does say only Main Street. But it also says that the route would go from "Main" to "Stemmons Freeway", and the only proper (and legal) way to get from Main to Stemmons is via Elm Street. So, really, the 11/20 DMN does actually IMPLY the Houston and Elm turns when it says "MAIN" followed immediately by "STEMMONS".

And the logical answer as to why the map of the parade route that appeared in this 11/22/63 edition of the Dallas Morning News didn't show the "dogleg" turns onto Houston and Elm Streets is because the map that was printed was fairly small in size, and it would have been a tight squeeze to fit the two short dogleg turns into a map of that size. (Although I suppose CTers can still argue that the two doglegs could still have been squeezed into that map, seeing as how the creators of this particular map did find room for all of the other turns along the motorcade route, e.g., Turtle Creek, Cedar Springs, Harwood, etc.)

But, again, with the Elm Street turn being published in the papers on 11/19/63, I cannot see where the conspiracy believers can go with their argument that the motorcade route was changed around at the "last minute". As I said, the CTers would have to believe the route was changed TWICE after the Nov. 19 papers were published, with the second of these changes exactly mirroring the route that was made public on the 19th. And that's just wacky.

Plus, let me also point out that members of the radio and television media were fully aware of the "Houston to Elm" turn as of at least mid-morning on November 22nd, which is a fact that would certainly tend to undermine the theory that the small map published on the front page of the Dallas Morning News that same morning (November 22) reflected an "elimination" of the Houston-to-Elm turn.

As I discuss in Appendix 1 ("Additional Controversial Issues Surrounding The JFK Assassination") of "Beyond Reasonable Doubt" (on pages 421 and 422), both Bob Walker of WFAA-TV and Joe Long of KLIF-Radio narrated extensive live TV and radio coverage from Love Field as JFK arrived in the city of Dallas on Air Force One on 11/22/63 [see the two videos below].

In each of those live broadcasts, Walker and Long give a description of the motorcade route that the President will travel that day. In Walker's description, he says: "...it'll turn on Houston Street to Elm". In Long's KLIF report, he said: "The main route of travel will be west on Main to Houston, then through the Triple Underpass to Stemmons Freeway, and on to the Trade Mart." (And even though the words "Elm Street" were not spoken by Joe Long in that radio coverage, his description of the route implies the Houston-to-Elm turn, of course, because the only way to get "through the Triple Underpass" from "Houston" is by turning left on Elm from Houston.)


GO TO 28:15....




GO TO 4:04....



In addition....

There is also this map of the Dallas motorcade route that was published in the Dallas Times Herald on Thursday evening, November 21, 1963, which clearly shows the Main to Houston and the Houston to Elm turns....


CLICK TO ENLARGE:



So, in the final analysis (and after looking at all of the various motorcade descriptions and maps that were printed in the two Dallas newspapers starting on Saturday, November 16, 1963), it becomes fairly obvious what the answer to the "map" mystery is:

Some of the maps (as well as the Nov. 16 DMN text description) published in the Dallas papers just simply didn't include all of the streets that President Kennedy was going to travel on during his motorcade through downtown Dallas. Because if that's not the answer, then we'd have to believe that the actual motorcade route was being changed practically every day from November 16th to the 22nd, with the route bouncing around like a tennis ball.


JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

Your continuing tendency to cherry pick evidence...is really a disturbing quality of your postings here. And no matter how many times you get called out on it, that grievous tendency of yours is never eradicated.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Well, Jim, seeing as how I just destroyed the entire argument you were trying to make when you said this a little while ago....

"On November 16th, the motorcade was going down Main Street, no doglegs. On November 19th, the route described included the doglegs. But a day later, the doglegs were eliminated. And on the day of the assassination, the pictured route continued in that vein."

....I think it's a bit disingenuous on your part to claim that I am the one who is doing the "cherry picking" when it comes to this particular topic. With the introduction into the mix of the above motorcade map published in the 11/21/63 edition of the Dallas Times Herald, you are the one who is now going to have to "cherry pick" the various newspapers in order to keep your fantasy alive of the motorcade route ever being changed at all after the complete and finalized route was first printed in the Dallas papers on November 19th. Good luck playing your version of Motorcade Route Hopscotch what with that November 21st Times Herald map now staring you in the face too.*

* And I realize you probably weren't even aware that the 11/21/63 map even existed before today (and I don't think I had ever seen that map prior to finding it online today either), but now that you can see that the Elm Street turn was being fully revealed to the public the day before President Kennedy went to Dallas, I don't see how you can continue to believe that the small scale map seen in the DMN on Nov. 22 is some kind of proof that the "doglegs were eliminated" [your quote] on November 20th.

Can you continue to believe such a thing now, Jim?


DON JEFFRIES SAID:

The motorcade route doesn't get as much scrutiny as it should. Neocons in our community have attempted to diminish the significance of the change, and of the actual route eventually taken.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

But there's no PROOF whatsoever that any "change" actually was made to the motorcade route at all. The "change" resides mainly in the wishful-thinking imaginations of conspiracy advocates.

One thing is a certainty --- the constant back-and-forth "changes" that Jim DiEugenio is talking about (re: the Dallas Morning News reports of November 16-22) are not "changes" in the actual motorcade route at all. And no reasonable person could possibly believe they do reflect "changes".

The "Only On Main Street" reports from the DMN are simply not as detailed regarding the streets JFK was going to travel on. And it's especially silly for Jim to prop up the very first of those DMN reports --- which is this 11/16/63 article --- which only says "Main Street". But that 11/16 report was printed at a time when Jim knows that the final motorcade route had not yet been revealed to anybody. The police and Secret Service didn't finalize the route until two days later, on Nov. 18.

So for Jim to say (as he did yesterday) --- "On November 16th, the motorcade was going down Main Street, no doglegs" --- is just ridiculous, because the DMN could not have possibly even known, as of 11/16, about any possible "doglegs" the motorcade route would encounter on Houston or Elm Streets. And I don't think ANY other street names are mentioned AT ALL in that 11/16 DMN article. So why would Jim make an issue out of the two "dogleg" turns not being printed in that article, when it would appear that no other street names are mentioned at all, except "Main"?

As a side note regarding the "breaches of security" that conspiracy theorists are always contending were rampant in Dealey Plaza on November 22....

I'd be willing to bet that President Kennedy's open-top car was taken down many streets in many U.S. cities in which "hazards" very similar to the Houston-to-Elm hairpin turn were, in fact, negotiated by the driver of Kennedy's limousine. And I know there have been instances during motorcade parades when the President's car actually came to a complete stop in the midst of throngs of spectators. And we need to look no further than Dallas on November 22nd to verify this fact---because on two separate occasions during the Dallas parade, JFK ordered the car to stop so that Kennedy could greet well-wishers, which he did. But since JFK wasn't shot during those two unscheduled motorcade stops, nobody ever says a word about that "breach of security" on the part of the Secret Service.

And the day I find in my large JFK video collection the pre-11/22/63 clip of President Kennedy's heavy SS-100-X Lincoln limousine slowing down to a crawl to navigate a hairpin turn like the one his vehicle encountered at the corner of Elm and Houston Streets in Dallas, I'll be sure to post that video at this forum. But maybe somebody can beat me to it, because video or film footage of such a common occurrence during a Kennedy motorcade must surely be out there in a video vault somewhere.


JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

What a crock of Von Peinian baloney. Here we go again. He gets exposed on his misrepresentations and so now he tries to make stuff up about what the reporters were thinking. As if he knows.

Then he says there was no real change and it was only about some "confusion".

Note the effort to discount Vince's [Palamara's] book which started this whole thing. Please note the witnesses below and what they say:

Palamara later adds that the final route was not actually decided upon until November 20th. He feels that this change, which included the dogleg, was kept secret after being authorized in Washington by agent Floyd Boring. In a suppressed Commission document the author found, the assistant police chief, Charles Batchelor, revealed that the secrecy about this change in the route made it hard for the local authorities to furnish any help to the Secret Service. (p. 105)

Another witness, Sgt. Sam Bellah, told the author that the police did not know about the route change until the evening of November 21st. Bellah said the original plan did not have the motorcade pass in front of the Texas School Book Depository. Bellah said that his commander, Captain Lawrence, came to his home late on the evening of the 21st. He took him to the triple underpass to show Bellah the new route for the motorcycle advance escort, of which Bellah was a part. (ibid) Bellah said that there was never any explanation as to why the route was changed at the last moment.

Another local policeman, Captain Orville Jones told author Larry Sneed the same thing. That the motorcade route was changed just prior to the 22nd. Jones told the author that many people he knew in the Secret Service did not approve of going through Dealey Plaza at all. There were other routes discussed which avoided the triple underpass. (ibid)

Another witness to this strange alteration was motorcycle officer Bobby Joe Dale. Dale said that there was more than one route discussed and reviewed by the police. In fact, three had been bandied about. Dale said it was not until Kennedy's arrival at Love Field that morning that he was alerted to what the actual route was going to be. (ibid, p. 106)


Also, note the change of tactics. Now he [DVP] says well, all those people must be lying [a blatant lie on DiEugenio's behalf; I never once accused anybody of "lying" when it comes to this "Motorcade Route" topic].

Yeah Davey, only Rowley, Lawson, and Sorrels were telling the truth.

Oh and I forgot, Gerald Blaine.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

The "changed at the last moment [on the evening of November 21]" recollections attributed to Police Officer Sam Bellah are proven wrong by taking just one look at the November 19th Dallas newspapers. There was no "last minute change"——period. And this Dallas Morning News article from 11/19/63 proves it:

CLICK TO ENLARGE:



JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

[Carl] Freund [of the Dallas Morning News] wrote a story on the sixteenth, which said the motorcade would come down Main Street.

Freund then printed the story above, on the 19th, that included the dogleg.

On the 20th, the DMN changed it to the Main Street only directions.

Then on the 22nd, it printed a map which only included the Main Street route.

Therefore, if you go by the stories...the route was changed after the 19th.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Notice how Jim totally ignored (once again) the Dallas Times Herald November 21st map that I posted yesterday. (Jim likes to rely only on the Dallas Morning News, I guess. The Times Herald doesn't count at all evidently.)

So, when we include the Times Herald of Nov. 21 (which Jim is avoiding at all costs), let's try to follow the Bouncing Motorcade Route from day to day....

--------------

November 16 --- Main Street only (DMN).

November 19 --- Elm Street turn (Both Dallas papers---the DMN and DTH).

November 20 --- Main Street only (DMN).

November 21 --- Elm Street turn (DTH).

November 22 --- Back to Main Street only (DMN).

November 22 --- Elm Street turn (via the actual motorcade route taken by JFK that day).


--------------

Now, it would require a massive amount of tortured logic to conclude that the above newspaper reports truly indicate that the motorcade route was actually changed back and forth a total of five different times over the course of a six-day period.

The route was never changed, and these two items below--which are identical--prove that fact (IMHO)....

November 19 --- Elm Street turn (Both Dallas papers---the DMN and DTH).

November 22 --- Elm Street turn (via the actual motorcade route taken by JFK that day).



DAVID LIFTON SAID:

It is not often that I have the time to drop by and see what's doing on the London Forum, but--sitting in a Starbucks on a lovely Memorial Day--I decided to do just that. What immediately caught my attention was the title of this thread..."Who Changed the Motorcade Route?" etc., and these long-winded paragraphs written by James DiEugenio which, not surprisingly, are completely incorrect. It's not my purpose to invest a lot of time debunking a windbag, but let me try to set the record straight.

I'm writing what follows, from memory, because this was an issue that I carefully investigated, decades ago. The Dallas motorcade route was something I pursued, in great detail, in the very year (or two) after I ordered my own set of the 26 Volumes (and after I began ordering documents from the National Archives).

There is plenty of reason to believe that the motorcade route was in fact "contrived," but the notion that it was "changed"--i.e., altered at the last minute to include the Dealey Plaza dog-leg--is completely wrong.

That's not what happened. The real issue is not that, but how the Trade Mart was selected as the luncheon site.

The governing document--listing in great detail the genesis of the Dallas motorcade route--is to be found in Commission Document 3 ("CD 3"),
Appendix A.

CD 3 was one of the earliest documents submitted to the Warren Commission after its creation, and Appendix A lays out, in detail, the chronology of the decision-making process leading to the motorcade route that was actually followed on November 22, 1963.

Historically speaking, CD 3/Appendix A is akin to "best evidence" when it comes to the genesis of the Dallas motorcade route, and anyone who ignores that primary source, is--in short--just "blowing smoke."

The motorcade route was "test driven" on November 14 (or Nov 15th)--by Asst. Dallas Police Chief Batchelor, and SS Field Office Chief Sorrels--as soon as the luncheon site decision was made. (Within 12-24 hours).

The luncheon site decision--i.e., the Trade Mart as the luncheon site, which meant the Trade Mart as the terminus of the Dallas motorcade--was made on either Thursday, 11/14 or 11/15 (I'm writing this from memory). Within 12 hours, as I recall, the two individuals I mentioned--Asst. Dallas Police Chief Batchelor and Forrest Sorrels--did a "test-drive" from Love Field to the Trade Mart, going through Dealey Plaza, and then via Stemmons Freeway, which meant entering Stemmons from Elm, which meant driving through Dealey Plaza exactly as the JFK motorcade drove that route on 11/22/63.

I don't think it matters--at all--what this or that person says he "remembers" years later, even decades later. Go to CD 3/Appendix A, and you will see laid out, in print, the story of how that route was driven on 11/14 or 11/15. That "test drive" occurred within 12 hours of the Dallas luncheon site decision--i.e., the selection of the Trade Mart as the luncheon site.

In other words, the motorcade route, as test driven on 11/14 or 11/15, was designed, from the outset, to pass directly in front of the TSBD, where Oswald had commenced working in mid-October. There was no need to "change it" or to "add" the dog-leg; it was there from the beginning. The notion that the dog-leg was "added" is a totally bogus issue promoted by DiEugenio et al. To borrow the language from the debate concerning evolution, that particular motorcade route (and the "crossed-paths" situation that was created, with LHO's location) was present from the outset (i.e., from 11/15, at the latest) and was a case of "intelligent design."

If one wishes to search for what is (perhaps) suspicious, then that question devolves to the issue of why the Trade Mart was chosen as the luncheon site--and certainly NOT whether the "dog-leg" was added "later."

That is a non-issue.

[...]

FYI: The luncheon site decision was made, in Washington, by Kenneth O'Donnell, who was, I am sure, heavily lobbied by LBJ (and, very likely, by Governor Connally). It was that decision that laid the foundation for the motorcade route (that was "selected"; and that "selection" occurred as a consequence of the "test drive" by Sorrels and by DPD Asst. Chief Batchelor).

Furthermore, and for those who want to do serious research in this area, and not spend hours and hours pursuing false leads that lead nowhere, please note the following: when Governor Connally pushed for the Trade Mart as the luncheon site, he had no idea that there would be a motorcade. In fact, and quite to the contrary, Gov. JC was under the impression that there would not be a motorcade. So Gov. JC was simply aggressively lobbying for a particular luncheon site, unaware that it would be the terminus for a slow-moving "political" motorcade. (He learned that there was to be a motorcade in the 24-hour period following the motorcade route "selection", and that led to some very serious conflicts concerning JC and those planning the trip.)

As for the maps published in the Dallas newspapers earlier in the week, my advice would be to ignore the "squiggles" in the map (and theories about any particular squiggle) and look at the text of those stories. As I recall, the text--starting on Tuesday, 11/19, clearly describes the route as including that dog leg turn. Perhaps not every story does--I don't have my file in front of me as I write this--but there were definitely stories published on Tuesday, 11/19 (and the latest, 11/20) that describe the route as it was actually driven on Friday, 11/22/63. So the notion that the dog-leg suddenly materialized as a consequence of a last minute change is flat-out false.

To anyone who wishes to study this further, and not simply push the "Garrison believed...[this or that]" line, I'd also advise getting a copy of Jerry Bruno's book "[The] Advance Man" (co-written by Jeff Greenfield), which was published around 1971. He talks about the alternate luncheon site, the Woman's Building, and how he thought that would be the final decision, and was surprised at what he experienced as a significant reversal.

FYI: I and another researcher talked to Bruno in 1971, when he was on his Los Angeles book tour, and there are unpublished archival documents that are important in that regard.

DSL

5/28/2018 - 6:30 PM PDT

South Orange County, California


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Thanks, David Lifton, for your post regarding the genesis of the motorcade route.

Here's a link to Commission Document No. 3 (also known as the "Report Of The U.S. Secret Service On The Assassination Of President Kennedy"). To go directly to "Appendix A", which David Lifton specifically mentioned in his above post, Click Here.

I suppose that most hardline conspiracy theorists probably contend that most of the things we find in CD3 are simply lies invented by James Rowley's Secret Service in the days and weeks after the assassination (seeing as how that SS Report is dated December 18, 1963).

Mr. Lifton is correct when he said a "test drive" of the Dallas motorcade route was driven by police and Secret Service officials on November 14th. However, I can't find any mention at all of any specific streets---Elm Street or otherwise---being mentioned on this page of that Secret Service Report (CD3) where it talks about the November 14th "test drive" (as Lifton calls it).

So when David Lifton said this in his last post....

"Asst. Dallas Police Chief Batchelor and Forrest Sorrels did a "test-drive" from Love Field to the Trade Mart, going through Dealey Plaza, and then via Stemmons Freeway, which meant entering Stemmons from Elm, which meant driving through Dealey Plaza exactly as the JFK motorcade drove that route on 11/22/63."

....I'm wondering where within Commission Document No. 3 Mr. Lifton found the information to support the specific "entering Stemmons from Elm" portion of that post?

I, myself, have no doubt that Lawson and Sorrels did, indeed, travel on Elm Street during that Nov. 14 "test drive", but I just can't find a specific reference to the Houston-to-Elm turn in the SS Report. If you can find one, David L., please point me to it.

BTW, on Page 12 of that SS Report, we find this information which totally demolishes the idea put forth by people such as Fletcher Prouty (and others) about how every single building and window should have been checked by law enforcement prior to the Dallas parade. As we can see here in CD3, no such practice was adhered to by the Secret Service in 1963:




DAVID LIFTON SAID:

I took the time to do a little reading in CD 3/Appendix A to refresh my own memory about what I originally concluded, years ago, when I first obtained this critically important document from the National Archives, and gave it a lot of close study.

My conclusions about how the motorcade route was "selected" was largely based on reading the report in its entirety--and especially Appendix A, which details the decision-making process that led up to the selection of the motorcade route.

[...]

Most important: there is (i.e., "was") only one route that was ever "mapped" out, selected, and test driven. There is no discussion of any "other" route--ever--and always that route, the one that was "test driven" or "selected", is the same as the one that was driven on November 22, 1963.

[...]

On page 11 of this Secret Service report (again, we are in CD 3, Appendix A) comes a paragraph summarizing the news coverage preceding the Dallas trip, starting on 9/26/63, when the first announcement that there would be such a trip was published.

That paragraph includes this sentence: “The selected route of the motorcade appeared in the November 19 [Dallas] Morning News [Exhibit 6D] and in the November 19 evening edition of the Dallas Times-Herald (Exhibit 6E). This route was released locally in Dallas on the evening of November 18.”

On page 13, it is referred to as “the route selected.”

On page 10, it is stated that on Monday, November 18, SA Lawson and SAIC Sorrels drove the selected route with Asst Chief Batchelor, DPD, and another Dallas police officer.

At no time is it ever indicated that the “selected” route was anything other than the route as driven on November 22, 1963.

Whether it's referred to as the “selected” route, the “chosen” route, etc. does not matter. There is (i.e., “was”) no other route under discussion, and that is what is most remarkable (even suspicious) about this situation. Only one route—the “selected” route—was ever "considered" or ever test driven.

So all this fuss about whether the dog-leg was “added” is completely irrelevant, false and misleading. There is no evidence that any such "last minute change" (or "addition") was made; So if that is what DiEugenio is basing his case on, it is pure nonsense.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Thanks, David L., for taking the time to write out all your thoughts on this matter in this Education Forum post.

I, too, had seen all those references to "the selected route" that appear in the Secret Service Report (CD3), but I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing some specific reference within CD3 to "Elm Street" or "Houston Street" or "Stemmons Freeway" (relating to the "test drive" of the motorcade route).

I see now that you are utilizing ALL of CD3, in its totality, to arrive at your conclusion that the motorcade route was never changed (and I agree), including the exhibits of the 11/19/63 Dallas newspapers which clearly spell out the motorcade route (in text!), including the Houston-to-Elm turn.


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

Will someone please knock real hard on DiEugenio’s cranium to see if someone is there; and if so (i.e., if the message is answered), please point out that the Dallas Times Herald of November 19, 1963 (as documented in Exhibit 6E of CD 3) published the motorcade route, and that the text of the story clearly spells out that the motorade will pass through Dealey Plaza, by going from Main (right) onto Houston, and then (left) onto Elm, and then out Stemmons Freeway.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Yes, David. I "knocked real hard" on Jimmy's cranium just three days ago with words that are almost identical to what you just said....

"The Houston-to-Elm dogleg was described in the November 19th Dallas newspapers, which makes perfect sense considering what I just said above about the route being officially announced on Nov. 18. Therefore, the dogleg was part of the motorcade route as of November 18th, otherwise the Dallas Morning News couldn't have printed the route in its paper on the morning of the 19th [as seen in CE1363]. .... Some conspiracy myths just refuse to die, don't they? And "The Motorcade Route Was Changed" junk is apparently one such myth that I guess will be with us until the end of time." -- DVP; May 26, 2018


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

Do you [James DiEugenio] think that Oswald and Kennedy "crossed paths" by accident? .... As the chronology plainly reveals, the motorcade route was deliberately designed to create this "crossed paths" situation. .... Moreover, it was a route that had been selected and agreed upon days before, starting around November 14th. .... What we have here is important evidence of premeditation in terms of the design of this crime, and recognize it for what it is.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

No, what we really have here—with respect to the motorcade route—is a natural and logical and ordinary and non-sinister decision being made by the United States Secret Service (in conjunction with the Dallas Police Department) to take President Kennedy's motorcade down Elm Street in Dallas, Texas, in order to get the Chief Executive from Main Street to the Stemmons Freeway and then on to the Trade Mart.

It is the conspiracy theorists of the world who insist upon turning ordinary happenstance into a massive pre-planned conspiracy plot.

And to think, as many conspiracy theorists do, that the very ordinary and non-conspiratorial way in which Lee Harvey Oswald became an employee of the Texas School Book Depository in mid-October of 1963 (a full month before the Dallas motorcade was even finalized) can somehow be turned into an act of "conspiratorial planning" is not reasonable thinking at all, in my opinion.

Plus, there's this very important "motorcade-related" article [below] that appeared in the Dallas Morning News exactly one week before the assassination, which paints a dim picture for there being any motorcade drive through downtown Dallas AT ALL on 11/22/63. Do some conspiracists (like David Lifton) think this 11/15/63 article is nothing but a lie or a ruse, just to throw people off? Or do some CTers really believe that a plot to murder the President on Elm Street in Dallas wasn't even conceived until AFTER this newspaper article was published on November 15th?....



"Dallas sponsors of a luncheon said they expect President Kennedy to travel between the site and Dallas Love Field
by the most direct traffic artery. They see little chance
that the President will change his plans to include a motorcade through Downtown Dallas."

-- Dallas Morning News; November 15, 1963



RICH POPE SAID:

The "Speculation and Rumors" appendix of the Warren Commission's Report reads, "Speculation -- The route shown in the newspaper took the motorcade through the Triple Underpass via Main street, a block away from the Depository. Therefore, Oswald could not have known that the motorcade would pass directly by the...Depository Building." (WR643).

Marina Oswald wrote, "Only when I told him that Kennedy was coming the next day to Dallas and asked how I could see him--on television, of course--he answered that he did not know." This was the night before the assassination (18H638).

James Jarman's conversation on the day of the assassination revealed Oswald's ignorance of the day's events, knowing neither the reason for the crowds gathering around the building nor the route of the motorcade. (3H201).

Therefore, based on the newspaper accounts, neither Oswald nor any Dallas resident could have known the exact motorcade route, for conflicting accounts were published.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Then apparently you, Rich, must think that all of the many people who gathered on both Houston Street and Elm Street prior to the motorcade arriving in Dealey Plaza --- including the likes of Mary Moorman, Jean Hill, Jim Altgens, the Willis family, Charles Brehm, Bill & Gayle Newman, Abraham Zapruder, Mary Woodward, and all of the people who elected to watch the parade from the steps of the Book Depository Building --- just got lucky and guessed correctly that the President's car was going to turn down Houston and then onto Elm. Is that correct?

The reality is, of course, that those people I mentioned above (and many more) knew where to stand along Houston and Elm Streets that day because they all knew, prior to the motorcade ever arriving in Dealey Plaza, that JFK's motorcade would be coming down those exact streets (Houston and Elm). And they knew that information because it was published--in detail--in both of the Dallas newspapers on Tuesday, November 19th, and again in the Dallas Times Herald on Thursday, November 21st (in addition to being announced on both radio and television between 11:30 AM and 12:00 noon on November 22nd).


RICH POPE SAID:

Yeah, there are a ton of people here. How is it possible the President ever made it past all the onlookers? Your imagination doesn't match the photographic evidence. Many of these people are walking from Main Street over to Elm. They were not waiting for the President on Elm....




DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

You want to play Dueling Photographs, eh? Okay. My turn....












Did all of those people we see lining both sides of Houston Street (plus the many women we see lined up on the north side of Elm Street in the Zapruder Film) suddenly dash to those positions from Main Street just seconds before they saw the President's car approaching the Plaza? (I kind of doubt they did.)

Correcting another inaccurate Rich Pope statement....

It's misleading to say that the people we see running toward Elm Street in this Charles Bronson photograph were "walking from Main Street" (as you claimed). Those people were almost certainly running toward Elm after having just watched the President pass by their position on (or very near) the corner of Houston and Main Streets.

Those bystanders who were initially situated on (and near) the corner of Main & Houston could see that the unique set of turns that were coming up for JFK's car would enable them to catch a second glimpse of the President and First Lady when the limousine turned onto Elm Street, so they ran over to Elm (from Houston & Main) for a second look. But they certainly wouldn't have been camped out further west on Main Street when they began their dash toward Elm. All of those parade watchers very likely started their dash from the Main/Houston corner.


DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:

We need to remember that the route was changed for the single purpose of framing Oswald.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Is there any chance that conspiracy theorists will ever stop repeating the lie about the motorcade route being "changed"? Because no matter how many times CTers/Fantasists repeat that myth, it will never become a fact. It will always be a lie. And provably so. For the 54th time now, the proof that the route wasn't "changed" at the last minute (or even in the last three days) exists in Commission Exhibit 1362 and Commission Exhibit 1363.

I guess CTers just refuse to read.


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

Governor Connally did not know there would be a motorcade at the time he made the Trade Mart decision.

Indeed, he had been assured there would be no motorcade--just a normal trip from Love Field to the Trade Mart, a luncheon, a quick trip back to Love Field, and then the flight to the last stop, Austin, Texas.

(And, by the way, this same deceitfulness occurred on 11/22/63, on the flight from Fort Worth to Dallas, when Gov JC was, once again, assured--while the plane was in flight (from FW to Dallas)--that there would be "no motorcade," only to see the opposite, when he deplaned, and could see the cars all lined up for a motorcade.)


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

David L.,

How in the world can the above "Connally Still Didn't Know About A Motorcade As Late As 11/22" situation have possibly existed when we know that practically ALL of the rest of Dallas and Fort Worth was aware---as early as Nov. 19!---that a motorcade was definitely going to take place in Dallas? It doesn't make sense.

Am I supposed to actually believe that Governor Connally, who was himself organizing many of the details pertaining to Kennedy's trip to Texas, was kept in total darkness as to the fact that any motorcade was going to take place in Dallas until he actually stepped off of Air Force One at Love Field on November 22nd---and even though Connally himself was going to be riding in that very motorcade that he supposedly knows nothing about until the very last minute??!

That's impossible for me to believe.

And I guess it would mean that Gov. Connally, who spent the night in Fort Worth on November 21, didn't see any of the Dallas-area papers that day (or evening), including this Dallas Times Herald which features a big map of the Dallas motorcade on the front page--and above the fold. (Maybe the Governor, though, wasn't big on reading newspapers when he was away from Austin. But if he had been exposed to that newspaper that day---November 21st---he certainly would have been "tipped off" to the motorcade that was planned for the next day.)

What is your source, David L., for this sentence you recently wrote?....

"Gov JC was, once again, assured--while the plane was in flight (from FW to Dallas)--that there would be "no motorcade"."

Can you provide a link to your source for this rather remarkable and startling assertion (if such a link is available)? Thank you.


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

DVP:

My source for this statement is [a] brief article published in the New York Herald Tribune ("NYHT") on Saturday, November 23, 1963.

It is one of the earliest articles that I "clipped"--decades ago--and there were no scanners back then. (And when I finally got a scanner, I did not have the clip, readily at hand; so it just remained as an isolated "clip" in a manila folder.)

It was just 2-3 column inches long, the source was apparently Connally himself (or someone close to him); and the gist of it was that Connally had been assured (or "re-assured," I'm not sure which), on the flight from Fort Worth to Dallas that there would not be a motorcade; and that the President (and Jackie) would go directly from Love Field to the Trade Mart. By "directly," it was made clear that there would be no slow moving ("political") motorcade; just a normal ride at ordinary highway speeds, and I don't today recall whether the article stated he was going in a car, or (alternatively) might be flown by helicopter from Love Field to the Trade Mart.

Yes, I fully understand how "reasonable" your question sounds: "If Governor Connally was "planning everything," then how can this be?"

Agreed...and I tended to think along the same lines; but...:

I can only respond by saying that this was reported in the New York Herald-Tribune, on 11/23; and that the Herald-Tribune was an important newspaper. It was not a "page 6 rag."

My conclusion, when I read the article--and I think the source of the "reassurances" to JC may have been (I stress "may have been") Congressman Al Thomas (of wink photo fame)--was that Connally was being conned; that he must have continued his objections to a "downtown motorcade" and that this tug-of-war between what he wanted and what was being planned apparently extended right up to the point when he deplaned from Air Force One in Dallas.

And this brings me to a most significant piece of evidence, a photograph which was published on either 11/23 or 11/24/63.

THE PHOTOGRAPH OF JC AT LOVE FIELD...

It shows Connally standing beneath the wing of AF-1...and you can just see, from the look on his face, that he is clearly distressed (if not frightened). [See photo below.]

CLICK TO ENLARGE:


My own reconstruction was something like this: that he (JC) had been "reassured" on the flight from FW to Dallas (which was just a ten minute flight [as if one were flying from Pasadena to LAX]) that everything was going to be just fine; and that, contrary to what he might be hearing, the plans had changed, and there was going to be no motorcade.

But then, as he exited the plane, he could immediately see that he had been lied to, and--to be blunt--was not just worried, but scared.

None of this was pursued when he was questioned by the Warren Commission.

DSL

6/6/2018 - 2:15 AM PDT

South Orange County, California


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Thank you, David L., for your reply. I appreciate the information.

I think, however, that it's a very difficult task to try and determine in any definitive way what a person's overall demeanor and attitude might be by just looking at one photograph taken of that person. If you'll recall, Johnnie Cochran attempted a similar trick when he was defending O.J. Simpson for double murder in 1995, when Cochran tried to convince the jury through the use of a videotape that Simpson was very happy and congenial just a few hours before his ex-wife was murdered, and therefore Simpson couldn't possibly be the real killer. But, as everybody knows, sometimes looks can be very deceiving.

Now, if I wanted to engage in another round of Dueling Photographs, I would then make use of the picture below, which shows Governor John Connally standing up in the Presidential limousine at Love Field in Dallas prior to JFK getting into the car. And look at the expression on Connally's face. Does he look worried or concerned or frightened here? I don't think so. But does this picture mean that the Governor wasn't worried about anything at that particular moment? No, I don't think it proves that either....

CLICK TO ENLARGE:



DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:

Is it or is it not Secret Service protocol to not drop below 25-35mph and not take a slow turn like Main to Houston or Houston to Elm?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

That's absolute nonsense, David, and you surely must know it. The Secret Service took President Kennedy around HUNDREDS of regular 90-degree turns (like the one from Main to Houston) during JFK's three years in office. Therefore, it's ridiculous to think that the regular Main-to-Houston turn was against "Secret Service protocol". It obviously WASN'T.

As for the sharper Elm Street turn --- that turn was obviously not a major concern to the Secret Service on 11/22 either---otherwise they WOULDN'T HAVE DONE IT. Period.

Plus, we know the limo totally STOPPED on two occasions during the Dallas parade. And if you think slowing the car to below 35 MPH is a protocol violation (which it obviously is not, since the car was going BELOW that speed for almost the ENTIRE motorcade through Dallas), then what would be a COMPLETE STOP in your view? That must be a horrific "violation", right?

The CTers who scream "IT WAS AGAINST SECRET SERVICE RULES" are merely repeating what is very likely yet another conspiracy-flavored myth. I doubt any such "Rules" even existed in '63. And even if they DID exist "on the books", it's obvious that such "Rules" were not always strictly followed. Nor COULD they be, unless you believe that the SS would be whisking JFK through cities and towns at above 44 MPH (which is the figure I usually hear from the Conspiracy Mongers when this "protocol" topic pops up). And that's just silly. The motorcades through large crowds never went that fast.

For example, there's this photo below taken in Fort Worth on the morning of 11/22/63 (with the President standing up in the car). Do you think the car is going above 25-35 MPH here (or 44 MPH)? Not a chance. Particularly since the President is standing at the time and the car is turning a corner.

And also take note of the fact that there are no Secret Service agents at all riding outside any of the cars here (or walking alongside JFK's car). The SS follow-up car in the Fort Worth motorcade wasn't the Cadillac stretch limo that was used in Dallas. In Fort Worth, we can see that the SS used just a regular sedan and all of the agents had to sit INSIDE the car (while keeping the doors open slightly so they could get out quickly if needed). There were no running boards to stand on. And, also unlike Dallas, there were no built-in steps (or platforms) on the back of JFK's car in Fort Worth either. Which means, from those specific standpoints I just mentioned, the "security" that was in place in Dallas was actually better than the security utilized for the Fort Worth parade just an hour earlier.

But to hear conspiracy theorists tell the story, the security surrounding JFK's limo in Dallas was the worst that has ever existed. But when we look at just a few photos of other Kennedy motorcades, such as the one below from Fort Worth and these additional examples, we can see that that just is not the case at all.

CLICK TO ENLARGE:



RICH POPE SAID:

Okay. After spending a lot of time on the motorcade issue, can we all reach an agreement? I would say that if the motorcade route wasn't changed, it appeared to change based on the reports of both Dallas newspapers prior to November 22. .... Would it be fair to say that your average, everyday citizen who is possibly reading both newspapers would not be able to know the exact route JFK was planning to take on November 22?


MARK KNIGHT SAID:

I would call that a reasonable conclusion. The dog-leg was clearly spelled out in some reports, and was glossed over in others. One might deduce the necessity of the dog-leg based upon the presence of buses in the motorcade, but it wasn't clearly spelled out in all reports.

So I have my doubts that the route was actually changed. More likely it was simply poorly reported.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

But the route certainly was "spelled out" quite clearly on both radio and television between 11:30 and Noon on November 22. I wonder how many Dallasites were watching/listening to this?

And I would love to add some of the local Dallas TV & Radio newscasts from Nov. 19, Nov. 20, and Nov. 21 to my A/V archives, because it's quite possible that the words "Houston" and "Elm" were mentioned by the television and radio reporters sometime during those three days (which was the three-day period after the Houston and Elm turns had been mentioned in both Dallas newspapers).

Four days ago, David Lifton mentioned in one of his posts that he had, in fact, listened to some of the local Dallas radio broadcasts regarding the motorcade when he was at the National Archives in the early 1970s....

"There is simply no question--based on documents, newspaper reports, and radio broadcasts (and the bystander photos)--that the motorcade route (including what has been called the "dog leg") was known in advance. .... The same information was included in radio and TV broadcasts, and repeated (in Dallas) on Friday morning, 11/22. As I recall---and this is from listening to KRLD (CBS), WBAP (NBC) and WFAA (ABC) tapes of radio broadcasts at the National Archives back in 1970-1972---it was often stated that the motorcade would go through downtown Dallas and then "out Stemmons Freeway" to the Dallas Trade Mart."
-- David S. Lifton; June 5-6, 2018

David L.,

Do you, by chance, happen to currently possess any copies of those KRLD, WBAP, and WFAA pre-11/22 radio broadcasts? If so, I'd love to hear them. If not, do you have any memory of hearing anything more specific about the Houston and Elm turns in any of those radio news reports?


DAVID LIFTON SAID THIS.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

David L.,

Oh, in your June 5th post, I thought you were referring to PRE-NOV. 22 radio broadcasts, and not the Nov. 22 broadcasts (all of which I have myself, and have linked to numerous times in this thread, such as in my last post). Those quotes you mentioned can all be heard in the TV and radio broadcasts I just linked to above.

Do you, DSL, have any PRE-11/22 radio or TV broadcasts?


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

No. I don't think there were any such items in that collection. Sorry.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Okay. Thanks, David. I guess I misunderstood your June 5th post. I thought you might have heard some radio or TV newscasts from November 19-21. But you were talking only about hearing 11/22/63 broadcasts. My mistake.

BTW, I've been searching the Mary Ferrell Archives for the "CD" (Commission Document) you referred to....and so far only Commission Document No. 976 comes close to matching what you said was labelled "Tapes of Dallas Radio Broadcasts". But it's only a two-page inventory list of the radio logs that were obtained by the Secret Service in April and May of 1964. The actual logs (transcripts) are not included in CD976.

Surely, that brief log inventory isn't what you were referring to, is it DSL?


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

DVP:

FWIW ... Yes, it does sound like it, but: the document I was looking at was at least 100 pages.

[...]

Apparently, teams of USAF people, wearing headsets, sat at their desks, or consoles, and reviewed the contents of each and every tape.

In each case, they made a "list"--or "inventory"--of the contents of each tape.

Those lists, when gathered together, became the Commission Document in question--and I'm not really sure it's CD 976 (because there's a second "list", which was made strictly of WFAA tapes, and made by WFAA, not the US Air Force)...so please do check carefully.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Yes, there is an inventory of WFAA material only. I found it here in Commission Document No. 962....



According to this CD962 "title" page, it contains "A catalogue and index of the WFAA file of video tape, film, and audio tape of events surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy in Dallas".

The CD962 document, which consists of 129 pages, is a rather fascinating document for me to peruse, because it allows me (or anyone else) to compare the text description of WFAA-TV's assassination coverage* with the actual video of WFAA-TV's November 1963 programming, nine hours of which can be seen here....



* NOTE --- I enjoyed reading through all of CD962, particularly the "Catalogue and Index" beginning on Page 32 of the document, but the chronology of the WFAA coverage within that document is all over the place. It keeps jumping around from day to day, skipping back and forth from November 22nd, to the 23rd, then back to JFK's breakfast appearance in Fort Worth on the 22nd, then it jumps forward two days to November 24th and the murder of Lee Oswald, then back to the 22nd, etc. I think most of the WFAA material is covered in CD962, but it's not presented in anything close to a seamless chronological order.


DAVID LIFTON SAID:

In the spirit of an "Addendum" or Postscript to this thread, I thought I might add the following:

As the 3 cycle officers who led the motorcade emerged from the Triple Underpass, a photographer--McIntyre (not sure of spelling)--was standing somewhere on a grassy island just to the west of the TU--and he snapped an important photograph. It shows the 3 cyclists leading the way, with the chaos erupting behind them--i.e., with JFK's car, Curry's vehicle and others, now racing away from Dealey Plaza, and just emerging from under the TU.

If you blow up that photograph, one can get a pretty clear image of those 3 cycle cops, and the general impression that I got (and still "get") is that they are smiling broadly. Perhaps it's just the sunny weather? Sure, that's possible, and yes, it's possible that they are completely unaware of what's just happened; but I think (as the saying goes) a picture is worth a thousand words, and that further study is warranted.


JOHN BUTLER SAID:

There should be 5 motorcycle cops there, not 3. The 3 Advance motorbikes are in front of the 5 Lead motorbikes. The three motorbikes are the ones we see in Zapruder. The 5 motorbikes come next are not seen in Zapruder and precede the lead car with Jesse Curry and then [the] presidential limousine. Most photos and films show 3. Bell shows 5 in a few frames and also shows 3 as representative of the 5 lead motorbikes.

3 Advance motorbikes in McIntyre [sic] shows you that someone has altered that photo.

The question is:

Where are the 5 Lead Motorcycles in McIntyre [sic]?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Instead of jumping to the unwarranted conclusion that there must have been photo fakery, why not consider the obvious answer?

With that obvious answer being:

There are some additional motorcycles in front of the three cycles we see in the McIntire picture, and those additional cycles are simply out of the camera range of Mel McIntire's camera.

Plus....ask yourself:

Why would anyone want to alter the number of motorcycles seen in this photograph? ....




DAVID VON PEIN ALSO SAID:

FWIW...

I count eight (8) motorcycles riding in front of Chief Curry's Lead Car in this motorcade photo....




REPLAY....
DAVID LIFTON SAID:

If you blow up that [Mel McIntire] photograph, one can get a pretty clear image of those 3 cycle cops, and the general impression that I got (and still "get") is that they are smiling broadly.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Huh? I don't know how you can conclude that the three motorcycle officers have smiles on their faces in the McIntire photo. In reality, none of them are smiling at all.

I sure don't see any of the motorcycle policemen "smiling broadly" here....

CLICK TO ENLARGE:



DAVID LIFTON SAID:

This is an exceptionally clear print, and I have re-examined it carefully. I want to withdraw my previous remarks that the cyclists were smiling.

I no longer believe that to be the case.


JOSEPH McBRIDE SAID:

No Dan Rather in the [McIntire] photo. I noticed that immediately when this was first printed by the Dallas Morning News in 1988 when I was in town for the twenty-fifth anniversary. A colleague has said Rather was at the Trade Mart. Rather has given various claims for his whereabouts at the time of the shooting, including his frequent claim he was on the other side of the overpass from the shooting area waiting for a film drop.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

But that doesn't mean Rather wasn't there in the area nearby. Not every last square inch of the area is covered in the McIntire photo. Maybe Rather was standing just outside McIntire's camera range. For that matter, how do you know that the man on the far right of the picture isn't Dan Rather?

CLICK TO ENLARGE:



David Von Pein
May 26—June 17, 2018


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