JFK ASSASSINATION ARGUMENTS
(PART 619)


ED CAGE SAID:

http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/concl1.htm

Matt Douthit just now brought it to my attention that according to the above link z157, then z223-224, then z313 might be better than the z160 I've been using for the first shot. I agree.

Any other thoughts out there?


STEVE BARBER SAID:

Ed, I would venture to guess: 1st shot fired circa Zapruder frame 150-152, and the reason I believe this is because of the sudden turn from left to right of President Kennedy's head and the odd expression on his face, immediately followed by Governor Connally's sudden head turn from left to right by frames 163-168.

Please make note of agent Hickey in the follow-up car, look out over the left side of the follow-up car and then look down below him, in the direction of the street pavement. I've always been curious as to what that is all about.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

My best guess is still approx. Z160. But I almost always preface that belief with that word "approximately". And since Z157 is very close to Z160 (just 3/18ths of one second in real time), it seems to me that arguing over a "Z157" shot vs. a "Z160" shot is a relatively minor point. I usually reserve that type of Z-Film micro-analysis for the SBT timeline.

[RELATED ARTICLES HERE and HERE.]


JIMMY ORR SAID:

I personally find Max Holland's research into the Lost Bullet to be very compelling. I lean toward the idea that after the missed shot, Oswald took time to reposition himself within the sniper's nest where he found the ideal vantage, free of obstructions. The array of the spent hulls would also seem to indicate two firing positions.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Read my "Lost Bullet" link above, Jimmy. Something's not kosher there.


JIMMY ORR SAID:

Wow, thanks for pointing out the Lost Bullet review DVP. I was unaware of controversy with the film.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Re: the spent bullet shells on the floor.....

The hulls can bounce around like a pinball machine, Jimmy. The boxes were very close to the wall and to Oswald's rifle. I've never thought the shell location really told us very much, and I was a little surprised that the FBI actually conducted such a detailed test on the "Shell Dropping Patterns" for the Warren Commission. But they did. Which, once again, shows the high level of detail the FBI and WC went to in order to touch every base concerning this crime.

Quoting the Warren Commission testimony of Robert A. Frazier of the FBI:

"I made two studies in connection with the ejection pattern--one to determine distance and one to determine the angle at which the cartridge cases leave the ejection port."

[...]

MELVIN EISENBERG -- "Mr. Chairman, may I introduce these diagrams as Commission Exhibits Nos. 546 and 547?"


ED CAGE SAID:

I agree on the shell casings bouncing around like a pinball machine DVP...and God knows I have see a MILLION of them!!!


HOWARD D. ARNOLD SAID:

If what [conspiracy theorists] are saying about the fist-size hole in the upper right portion of the back of JFK's head/skull is right, then where was the gunman positioned to fire that shot that would have hit JFK's head in the left front?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

CTers don't like that "WHERE WAS THE GUNMAN?" question, Howard. They'd rather believe all the autopsy X-rays and pictures are fakes. But as we can all see quite plainly, the RIGHT-REAR of JFK's skull IS STILL THERE in the autopsy X-ray---




HOWARD D. ARNOLD SAID:

The front wound is definitely NOT an entrance wound.


RICHARD MITCHELL SAID:

I refer you to Sherry Fiester's book, which explains how these flaps are formed and what she found in the autopsy x-rays.




HOWARD D. ARNOLD SAID:

The skull flap over JFK's right portion of his head is caused from the exploding bullet exiting the right top front of the head.


RICHARD MITCHELL SAID:

No, it is connected to an entry point.


ED CAGE SAID:

With all due respect, Sherry Fiester has not been a reliable source, in my view. She is welcome to post her take on the issue however.


RICHARD MITCHELL SAID:

Well, her credentials certainly exceed those of anyone posting here.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Sherry thinks there was a shooter on the SOUTH Knoll (the Commerce St. side)! And I know of this many witnesses who think any shots came from there --- ZERO.


RICHARD MITCHELL SAID:

She does not say the South Knoll. She says to the right front of JFK. This would be somewhere near the right side of the top of the triple underpass over to the area around the end of the picket fence.


STEVE BARBER SAID:

With all due respect, there are those in the conspiracy crowd who believe that everything photographically regarding the assassination, i.e. films of the assassination, autopsy photos, x-rays, are "fake" because they all clearly show the front, top portion of the President's head blown off.

They would rather take the words of people who *briefly* saw the President as he lay on the stretcher at Parkland hospital, face-up--therefore, back of the head against the stretcher with his brain all over the place--claiming they saw a "hole" in the back of the head, rather than believe what the photographic evidence reveals, because they have to have a hole in the back of the head to free Oswald from guilt. It's pathetic!

The Zapruder film, the autopsy photos, and the right lateral x-ray all fit hand in glove, and they can't/will not accept that!

Do you guys all know about the large skull fragment that I discovered that flies off the head, strikes the seat of Mrs. Connally and falls towards the floor, in the Zapruder film? Paul Seaton made a GIF of it on his website.

Also, the large piece of brain that flies past Roy Kellerman in the Zapruder film, frames 320 and 321? Matter that size doesn't fly forward at that speed if a shot is coming FROM the front! Sherry whatever her name is is out of her mind!


RICHARD MITCHELL SAID:

Then his whole head wouldn't fly backward!


STEVE BARBER SAID:

His whole head didn't "fly backward". His entire upper body, from the waist up, flew backwards, and bullets do not cause this to happen.

President Kennedy suffered a neuromuscular reaction, which caused his body to stiffen, and he suffered a type of seizure. I was told that President Kennedy's feet had to be pulled out from under Connally's seat when the people were removing him from the limousine. He must have slammed them up under it during that last shot. I am trying to remember where I read this, and as soon as I find it, I will post the name of the person who said it.

[Later...]

I found out who it was who said this. It was Sam Kinney testifying before the HSCA, June 1977, document 9442.


RICHARD MITCHELL SAID:

You guys should probably read Sherry's book, but my take is that she says the bullet entered toward the front, along the flap, stayed in that line along the right side and exited the right rear.


JIMMY ORR SAID:

Sherry is obviously quite mistaken, Mr. Mitchell. And I don't read conspiracy books.


HOWARD D. ARNOLD SAID:

Again, a bullet would have exited the left back portion of the head if the shot was fired from the grassy knoll.


JIMMY ORR SAID:

Mr. Mitchell, regardless of where you stand on the matter of conspiracy or no, I recommend that you buy a copy of Larry Sturdivan's excellent book: The JFK Myths. You will enjoy the informative reading as well as the illustrations. You are always entitled to your own opinion, sir.


STEVE BARBER SAID:

I don't believe that Mrs. Kennedy went after a piece of head matter. I am trying to get some help with a GIF focusing on her actions in the Zapruder film while she is on the trunk lid, to show everyone that she doesn't "reach" for anything.

She slid across the trunk lid when her gloved hand made contact with the highly polished surface of the lid. It's an easy experiment anyone who has a convertible car can try for themselves, as long as the vehicle is well waxed like the limousine was.


HOWARD D. ARNOLD SAID:

Steve, if you watch in slow motion, a very small piece of JFK's skull flies up and back and when Jackie climbs out onto the truck lid of the limo, she puts her hand on it, grasping it, and begins crawling back in her seat a few seconds before the Secret Service guy reaches for her because he at first thought that she was climbing out from hysteria until he noticed that she had indeed grabbed the piece of the skull.


STEVE BARBER SAID:

Howard, I have examined the film with a fine-toothed comb, and there is no piece of skull that lands on the trunk lid.

Also, she never looks behind her before beginning to climb out of the seat, and gives no indication that she saw anything.

Mrs. Kennedy could have picked that piece of head matter up from anywhere in the car. It was all over it. There is zero proof that what she handed Dr. Jenkins came from the trunk lid. I am afraid that that is wishful thinking of some people.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

If Jackie picked up a piece of JFK's head on the trunk, then I'm just wondering how she managed to try and "hold his hair on" after she got back into the back seat? Was she using just ONE hand to do this (while holding onto the skull piece with her other hand)? Just curious about that.


HOWARD D. ARNOLD SAID:

David, Jackie held his head on the way to Parkland and used both hands, even as she held the small fragment. I believe she wrapped the piece in her glove after taking it off.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Even if Jackie DID pick up a piece of skull/brain on the trunk (which I doubt she did)--it proves nothing. Why? Because all LNers acknowledge the fact that JFK's head DOES, indeed, fly BACKWARD after the fatal blow. (Who could possibly deny that fact?)

So why on Earth is it impossible for a loose piece of his head to fly BACK onto the trunk? We all know the jet effect has been proven--over and over again---from Lattimer to Penn & Teller.

So finding some head debris on the trunk does not prove conspiracy in the slightest way, since we all know that JFK's head did fly backward after OSWALD hit him in the head from BEHIND (with the head initially going FORWARD, keep in mind)....




HOWARD D. ARNOLD SAID:

Exactly David.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Richard Mitchell is wrong when he said that Sherry Fiester does not think the fatal shot came from the SOUTH side of the Plaza. In fact, Fiester specifically EXCLUDES the traditional (north side) Grassy Knoll as a shooting location for the fatal shot:

"The shooter is conclusively proven to be near the south end of the triple overpass or the parking lot adjacent to that portion of the overpass. The unprecedented application of those current forensic crime reconstruction techniques excludes the Grassy Knoll."

That quote above comes from this article.


RICHARD MITCHELL SAID:

David, the quote you referenced does not match my understanding of Fiester's position, so I cannot explain it.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Richard --- To be perfectly fair to Sherry Fiester, that quote I cited above is probably not a DIRECT quote from Fiester. But it is connected to a long article which features Fiester's work.

Plus, I'm nearly certain I heard Fiester herself say on a Black Op Radio appearance a year or two ago that she does think the head shot came from the SOUTH (Commerce) side of the street.

I probably can even dig up a post I wrote on the acj newsgroup where I talk about the silly notion of a SOUTH KNOLL gunshot (that not a single witness heard). If I find the post, I'll link it here.


RICHARD MITCHELL SAID:

The primary thing I know is that Fiester's position is that the shot came from directly in front and I am sure she knows the South Knoll is not in front. So, I don't know if that was a misquote or she had a directionally challenged moment or what, but I don't find that the quote matches the analysis.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Here's a post I wrote in 2010, which concerns a 2008 radio appearance by Fiester (the link doesn't work now, but maybe I can find the program in Brent Holland's Night Fright radio archives [which I later did; see the video below]).

And please scroll to the last post in this thread, where a conspiracy nut named "Laz" (whom I've battled many times at acj) says:

"She [Fiester] believes the headshot originated from across the street from the grassy knoll? That's absurd... a shot in the left temple from the front is not going to make the head go back and to the left."

Laz's comment confirms my own memory on Fiester's theory -- i.e., she's got a shooter on the SOUTH side (near Commerce St.).


RICHARD MITCHELL SAID:

I think that is an inaccurate recollection.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

It's not. Laz was hearing the same radio interview I linked to from 2008. And I remember Fiester talking about a SOUTH-side shooter too. And (obviously) Mr. "Laz" heard her say it too.

[...]

Here's a video interview with Sherry Fiester (go to the 25:00 mark)....




JIMMY ORR SAID:

Jesus DVP, [that was] my first exposure to Fiester. What a loon. Hard to believe that she is actually a criminal investigator. That is scary.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Indeed, Jimmy. As I listen to Sherry, I keep saying --- Well, sure, Sherry. It's easy to come up with ANY trajectory you want if you want to just MAKE UP the entry and exit wounds--which is precisely what she has done.

She's just INVENTED an entry hole in the front of JFK's head and she literally ignores all of the REAL (i.e., BEST) evidence, which shows Kennedy was shot just once in the head, with a bevelled-in entry wound in the back of the head.

It must be great being a CTer--you don't have to follow ANY of the evidence or the photos or the autopsy doctors. You can just make shit up all you want. What freedom!


HOWARD D. ARNOLD SAID:

I guess the discussion ends for now with the facts that this Sherry Lady is off her rocker and that Oswald acted alone and the fatal head shot was fired from the sixth floor as the Warren Report said.


RICHARD MITCHELL SAID:

David, I listened to the clip. The only reference to direction for Z313 is that [Dale] Myers' analysis indicated JFK's head was facing toward the south end of the triple underpass and that the shot came from directly in front of JFK.

She told me there was a margin of 35 degrees of possibility.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Which, Richard, is about the wackiest theory yet. A shooter on top of the Triple Underpass, where the various railroad workers were located--plus TWO COPS??? Yeah, right. And she certainly doesn't rule out the South Knoll area, as we can see from that 11/21/13 article I linked earlier.

Why not face it, Richard, Fiester is just making up stuff as she sees fit. She's doing what nearly all conspiracy theorists do---she's ignoring the scientific evidence (autopsy, photos, X-rays, AND the autopsists themselves) and has decided ALL of that stuff is wrong (and/or fake).

Then she's free to speculate about ANY trajectory. She can put a shooter in Jim Tague's pants if she wants, since she's wiped the "official" slate clean.


HOWARD D. ARNOLD SAID:

David, you beat me to it. LOL.


RICHARD MITCHELL SAID:

David, Feister does use the x-rays. You need to learn more about what she says before you dismiss her outright.

And, do keep in mind that you are ignoring the fact that the doctors and nurses at Parkland, the Secret Service and the autopsy room personnel all say there was a massive wound in the back of the head.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Richard, read this article and then come back in here and tell me I'm "ignoring" those Parkland and Bethesda witnesses.


RICHARD MITCHELL SAID:

I am rather concerned that so many people consider themselves more qualified in CSI work than Ms. Fiester.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I'm sure Ms. Fiester is a qualified CSI investigator. But in THIS (JFK) case, there is plenty of HARD evidence that trumps her analysis.

And if she USES the X-rays (which is to say: she doesn't think they are fakes or forgeries), she's got no choice but to conclude there is NO big exit wound in the right-rear portion of the head.




RICHARD MITCHELL SAID:

David, I read your article and it indicates quite clearly exactly what I said, that you ignore the statements of the Secret Service, Parkland doctors and nurses and Bethesda staff.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I didn't ignore the "back of the head" witnesses, Richard. I evaluated their statements and observations and concluded they were wrong. They HAVE to be wrong, because these autopsy pictures PROVE they were wrong:



We've got a "SOMEBODY'S WRONG" situation here. Either the "BOH" witnesses were incorrect about where they said the large hole was located in President Kennedy's head -- or those photos shown above that were taken at JFK's autopsy are wrong.

And since the HSCA said this in 1978....

"The evidence indicates that the autopsy photographs and X-rays were taken of President Kennedy at the time of his autopsy and that they had not been altered in any manner." -- 7 HSCA 41

....the only reasonable conclusion I can come to is: the "BOH" witnesses were not correct.

David Von Pein
February 7, 2014