SANDRA STYLES....
WILLIAM KELLY SAID:
[Barry] Ernest and [Victoria] Adams demonstrate quite clearly that neither Oswald, nor the Sixth Floor Phantom Sniper, whoever he was, were on the back stairs in the minutes after the assassination, and that the official story of Oswald descending those stairs in order to meet Baker and Truly in the Second Floor Lunchroom at 12:32 is not the way it happened.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Nonsense, Bill.
With respect to Vickie Adams, the ONLY thing a person needs to accept in order to have Oswald on the back stairs within one to two minutes after the President's assassination is to accept the almost certain fact that Victoria Adams was simply inaccurate in her time estimate about when she and Sandra Styles were on the back staircase.
And if she's off by a mere ONE MINUTE, or even less, then her whole story unravels and it then becomes quite easy to accept the fact that Oswald used the back stairs just after shooting President Kennedy from the sixth floor.
The key to pretty much knowing without a doubt that Adams and Styles were on the stairs only AFTER Lee Oswald used the same stairs is not really Oswald himself--but Roy Truly and Marrion Baker.
Because if Adams was really on the stairs as early as she said she was, she would have had virtually no choice but to have seen (or heard) the two men who we know for a fact WERE on those stairs within about 60 to 75 seconds of the assassination -- Truly and Baker.
Since Adams saw nobody and heard nobody, the very likely solution is that she was mistaken about her timing (which couldn't be a more common error with human beings), and she was on the stairs AFTER all three men (Oswald, Baker, and Truly) had already utilized the same stairs.
BARRY ERNEST SAID:
Perhaps a reading of the book and, in particular, a look at the June 2, 1964, transmittal letter from Martha Joe Stroud to J. Lee Rankin may help clarify your point.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
This post at another forum should be of interest to Mr. Ernest:
[Quote On:]
"Sandra Styles mentioned to me that this author [Barry Ernest] had contacted her some years ago. She even knew the name of the book (which I hadn't heard of myself). Sandra claimed she told Ernest what she was now telling me: that she and Victoria Adams did *not* go to the rear stairs anything close to as quickly as Victoria had claimed. I find it a little worrying that there is no mention of Sandra's counter-version in any of the promotional material linked here."
-- Sean Murphy; January 27, 2011
[Quote Off.]
And Murphy is an Oswald-Didn't-Do-It conspiracy fantasist, btw.
BARRY ERNEST SAID:
When I interviewed Sandra Styles in 2002, she said absolutely nothing of the kind to me. What she did say was, she couldn't be sure exactly how quickly she left the window and went down the stairs, but she recalled she did so "rather quickly," in her words, and "when Vicki did," again in her words. Why she would say otherwise now, especially when she said what she did then and added, "Vicki was the more observant one," is beyond me. Again, the Martha Joe Stroud letter can settle the matter.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
What Commission Document is the Stroud 6/2/64 letter in, Barry? I'll be able to find it with ease at Mary Ferrell's site if you can give me the CD number (or CE number, if it's part of a Commission Exhibit).
Thanks.
[Note from DVP -- Obviously, since I've linked to the Stroud letter twice in the messages above, I later found the document online, after asking Barry Ernest the above question.]
BARRY ERNEST SAID:
David, the referenced letter was neither a Commission Document nor a Commission Exhibit. It was therefore not a part of the public record. It is not in the Mary Ferrell database either, that I am aware of. A copy of it exists in the Harold Weisberg collection, which is actually a copy that I gave him shortly after discovering it in the National Archives.
It was contained within a box of correspondence and other miscellaneous paperwork sent from the DOJ office in Dallas to the WC. It is a June 2, 1964, air mail, registered letter sent by Stroud to Rankin in which she lists several changes Miss Adams requested be made to her testimony, none of which were actually done by the way. The final paragraph, and I will quote this verbatim including the spelling errors, reads:
"Mr. Bellin [sic] was questioning Miss Adams about whether or not she saw anyone as she was running down the stairs. Miss Garner, Miss Adams' supervisor, stated this morning that after Miss Adams went downstairs she (Miss Garner) saw Mr. Truly and the policeman come up."
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Thank you, Barry. That's interesting indeed.
I'll just add this:
The amount of physical and circumstantial evidence that exists to this day against Lee Harvey Oswald for the murders of both President Kennedy and policeman J.D. Tippit is just too massive and comprehensive to be dismissed or ignored or swept under the rug -- even with the kind of information supplied on June 2, 1964, by Dorothy Garner.
And remember to keep asking yourself one important question --
If Lee Oswald wasn't the sixth-floor assassin, then how did the "real killer(s)" manage to remain completely out of the sight of Vickie Adams and Sandra Styles and Dorothy Garner and Roy Truly and Marrion Baker following the assassination of the President?
Did the "real killer" somehow manage to make himself invisible to all of those witnesses right after the shooting? Or did the real killer (if it wasn't Oswald) decide to remain on the sixth floor for many minutes after he shot at JFK, running the fearful risk of being captured on the TSBD floor where Oswald's rifle and the three spent shells were found?
I think even most hardened conspiracy theorists would find that latter option a little hard to swallow.
A RELATED DISCUSSION AT ANOTHER INTERNET FORUM....
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
It's funny to note that the conspiracy theorists don't think Lee Oswald had a prayer of getting from the sixth floor to the second floor of the Book Depository in 90 seconds, and yet those same conspiracists don't have any problem at all believing that the two women (Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles--wearing high heels too) could go from the 4th floor to the 1st floor in just 60 seconds.
And the difference in the distance travelled is just one floor (with Oswald needing to travel down four flights--from 6 to 2--while the girls need to go down three flights--from 4 to 1).
I guess the CTers just can't believe that Oswald could have traversed that ONE extra flight of stairs (and hide the rifle near the stairs) in the 30 seconds that separates LHO's time from the time the CTers like for the girls so much (1 minute flat).
Ironic, huh?
And, yes, I know that Oswald's "90 seconds" timeline starts from the moment the third shot was fired, whereas the girls' time starts a little later (from the moment they left the window).
But LHO has 1.5 times as many seconds to accomplish his task as the girls do theirs, and 30 seconds can be a lengthy cushion in this discussion. Couldn't most people place a rifle on the floor and walk (or run) down one flight of stairs (the difference in distance I was talking about above) in less than half-a-minute? If not, you're really slow. And there's no reason to think Oswald WASN'T high-tailing it pretty good down those stairs too, in order to put as much distance between himself and the sixth-floor crime scene (and that rifle of his) as he could--and as fast as he could.
WALT CAKEBREAD SAID:
It would have taken several minutes to place the rifle in position and then cover it with paper and boxes of books.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Absolute nonsense. You make it sound like he was constructing the Pyramids.
FWIW, it's my own opinion (based on LHO's clipboard being found very near this same area of the stairs and rifle) that Oswald likely pre-arranged his rifle-stashing area near the stairwell in advance of 12:30 PM.
But even if he didn't pre-arrange it, Walt's theory is just more of the same over-the-top dreck that Walt always utilizes in order to keep from having to admit what the evidence so plainly shows--and that is:
Walt's favorite "patsy" was, in truth, the assassin of President Kennedy -- and Oswald himself hid his own rifle in those boxes before fleeing down the nearby stairway.
Simple and Occam-like. But Walt likes the "Pyramids" approach better.
DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:
"Curt Jester", in his post linked HERE, is assigning ludicrous levels of assumed perfection to things that can never be pinned down that accurately.
All of these "timelines" revolving around Vickie Adams, Sandra Styles, Bill Shelley, Marrion Baker, and also Lee Harvey Oswald can only be estimated to a certain degree, and can never be micro-analyzed right down to the second....and everybody knows it (even "Curt Jester").
If Vickie Adams' timeline, which is discussed during her Warren Commission testimony HERE, is off just a TINY little bit--then Oswald can make it. That's all it takes. And yet a whole book has been written by Barry Ernest that focuses chiefly on a theory that is completely destroyed if Miss Adams is just SLIGHTLY off in her time estimate.
And yet, even though most readers SHOULD realize that Ernest's whole book is based on a TIME ESTIMATE given by a witness, Ernest's book has, amazingly, received glowing reviews from the Amazon readers, averaging 4.4 stars (out of 5 maximum) at Amazon.com (through this writing on May 7, 2013).
It goes to show how eager the public is to disbelieve the Warren Commission, and how eager and willing they are to base their pro-conspiracy thinking on something as flimsy as one witness' estimate of when she started down those Book Depository stairs. Kinda sad, isn't it?
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
I have a question for anyone who accepts Vickie Adams' time line and believes that she came downstairs before Truly & Baker had reached the freight elevator on the 1st floor.
If she's right, how does her story prove that Oswald didn't come down those stairs?
In the WC version, Baker spotted Oswald just after each man had reached the second floor landing. That means that while Truly & Baker were rushing up from the 1st floor to the second, Oswald would've presumably been hurrying from about the 3rd floor to the 2nd. So where were Adams and Styles during that time, according to Adams? Already outside the building!
Can someone explain how her time line prevents Oswald from using those stairs?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
It doesn't prevent Oswald from using those same stairs. And that is something I have also pointed out in my posts in the past:
"I'll say this regarding Vickie Adams' timeline....The more I think about this subject, the more I realize that even if Adams DID descend those stairs as quickly as she said she did, that particular scenario really does no harm whatsoever to the "Oswald Did It" conclusion.
Why?
Because...then Adams and Styles very likely BEAT Lee Harvey Oswald to the stairs. Hence, it's likely that Adams & Styles were always AHEAD of Oswald on their descent down the stairs.
And if Adams & Styles were really THAT fast at getting to the first floor, then they could have possibly beaten Baker & Truly too, with B&T only getting on the stairs after A&S had vacated the stairwell." -- DVP; February 17, 2011
COLIN CROW SAID:
Did Adams and Styles descend before or after Baker and Truly ascended?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Conspiracy theorists are defeated either way.
If Adams and Styles descended BEFORE Baker and Truly started up the stairs, then there's absolutely no reason why Lee Oswald couldn't have used those same stairs without being seen or heard by the two women. Oswald would have simply been a little BEHIND Adams/Styles.
And if Adams/Styles descended AFTER Baker/Truly started up, then the girls were on the stairs AFTER all three men (Baker, Truly, and Oswald) had already used those same stairs.
Why is this so complicated for so many CTers? Regardless of which way the timing falls, there's no reason under the sun to conclude that Oswald couldn't have utilized those very same stairs in the northwest corner of the Book Depository Building and yet not be seen by Vickie Adams and Sandra Styles.
The conspiracy theorists who try and use "timeline" estimates provided by witnesses to positively prove that Oswald couldn't have shot President Kennedy are relying on very flimsy "proof". Especially in light of all of that OTHER stuff that Oswald left behind on the sixth floor that indicates Oswald was, indeed, up there shooting at the President with a Carcano rifle.
Also....
Can any CTer explain how the alleged "real assassin" (or assassins, plural)--i.e., an alleged killer OTHER than Lee Oswald--managed to get downstairs without anyone on ANY Depository floor noticing him/them?
CTers never want to face that question of "HOW DID THE REAL ASSASSINS ELUDE DETECTION?"
As long as Lee Harvey Oswald can somehow be exonerated via the flimsy "timeline" analysis, most CTers are happy. And to hell with the question I just asked above.
TOM SCULLY SAID:
Question for David von Pein [sic]....
Do you think the time observations of the witnesses you have criticized were any less credible than Gladys Johnson claiming she first talked to OH Lee about three weeks before she said she rented a room to him on 14 Oct., and that Lee told her during that first encounter that he wanted to be near his work? What work.
Or the 1:04 time fix of Earline [sic] Roberts who also stated in early December that police had arrived about thirty minutes after Oswald departed. DPD detective Potts established in his testimony that he and other officers arrived at 3:00 pm.
Or that Whaley had any idea who Oswald was or what time near exact that Oswald got in or out of his cab?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
No.
You're only helping to emphasize my point about "timelines". Timelines always have to be taken with a grain of salt, including each instance you mentioned above. And the Vickie Adams timeline too.
Marrion Baker's timeline is more accurate because a detailed reconstruction of his movements was done by the Warren Commission.
Now, perhaps such a detailed reconstruction of Victoria Adams' movements should have also been done. Obviously, quite a few CTers think that such an Adams re-creation should have been performed by the Commission. I'll leave it to others to debate whether the Commission was being deliberately deceptive by not doing such a re-creation with Miss Adams.
But as far as I can recall, I have always adhered to the "Grain Of Salt" policy when discussing any "witness timeline" issues. All such times must be considered ESTIMATES. And that includes the time estimates provided by Earlene Roberts and Helen Markham and T.F. Bowley too.
COLIN CROW SAID:
As for an assassin fleeing the NW stairwell as suggested by the WC......it didn't occur.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Which has to mean that the unknown/unseen "real assassin" who was positively seen with a gun in the southeast corner window of the sixth floor during the assassination of President Kennedy must have either jumped out of a sixth-floor window (and used his BatRope to shinny down the side of the building) or that assassin decided to just hang around up on the sixth floor for XX number of minutes after having just killed the President from that floor.
Care to guess how long the brazen assassin stayed up there picking lint out of his belly button and drinking Dr. Peppers before deciding it was time to get the heck out of Dodge? Five minutes? Ten? Half-an-hour maybe?
Any guess more than "a few seconds" is downright silly, of course.
COLIN CROW SAID:
Dougherty was 10 feet from the stairs on the 5th floor. Did not report a fleeing assassin.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Jack Dougherty's testimony is a mess. A total disaster. Anyone who would use his testimony to try and prove anything is a desperate person indeed.
Given the complete train wreck that is the WC testimony of Jack Edwin Dougherty, I have my doubts as to exactly WHERE Dougherty was located just after the shots were fired. There's nothing definitive or concrete in Dougherty's testimony, IMO. He's a very confused witness, without doubt. And as such, he is not a good witness for establishing any FACTS.
Here's just one example (among many) illustrating Mr. Dougherty's confused state of mind when he gave his Warren Commission testimony (because it's highly doubtful this statement is accurate).....
JOSEPH BALL -- "When you went up to the sixth floor, it was after they found the shotgun and shells?"
JACK DOUGHERTY -- "Yes, sir."
COLIN CROW SAID:
Williams, Jarman and Norman failed to see or hear anything, not even Dougherty. Baker was noticed however.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
So?
Are you suggesting that those three men (Norman, Williams, Jarman) weren't being truthful? Or are you suggesting a scenario that I talked about earlier -- the scenario which has the "real killer" staying up on the Floor Of Death for several minutes after the assassination?
Because if it's not one of those two options I just laid out, your observation about Norman, Williams, and Jarman is a moot point that goes nowhere.
COLIN CROW SAID:
Adams and Styles reported no one. Garner saw Truly and Baker ascend after the girls descended but no one between.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Which is a set of circumstances that is entirely possible (even if I deem it unlikely). And given this scenario, lone assassin Oswald could have easily gone down the stairs AFTER Styles and Adams. Which, of course, would mean the two ladies would not have seen ANY assassin fleeing down those same stairs.
And we must also remember that Officer Marrion Baker's re-creations of his November 22 movements represented the MINIMUM time required to perform his actions (in two runs--one at 90 seconds and another at 75 seconds).
But Baker made it quite clear in his testimony that on the day of the assassination itself, it took him LONGER to do the things he did when compared with the reconstructions he performed in March of 1964:
"We simulated the shots and by the time we got there, we did everything that I did that day, and this would be the minimum, because I am sure that I, you know, it took me a little longer." -- Marrion L. Baker
Which would mean that Oswald would have had MORE time to get to the second floor than the Baker re-creations would indicate. And it would also mean that Vickie Adams and Sandra Styles could have taken MORE time to make their journey from the fourth floor to the first floor than is often cited. Which means they could have conceivably left their office window a minute or so LATER and still could have beaten Oswald to the stairs.
And this topic of Baker saying it probably took him LONGER to get to the second floor on 11/22/63 than it did during his two reconstructions in 1964 once again illustrates the need to look at ALL "timelines" with a grain of Morton's salt by our sides---even if a reconstruction of the event has been performed (such as Officer Baker's).
TONY FRATINI SAID:
There is no evidence anywhere that places LHO any higher than the second floor when the shots were being fired.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Incorrect. Lee Harvey Oswald HIMSELF placed himself higher than the second floor at the time of the shooting.....
"During Sunday's interrogation Oswald slipped up and placed himself on the sixth floor at the time of the assassination. .... In his Sunday-morning interrogation, he said that at lunchtime, one of the "Negro" employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he declined. .... He said before he could finish whatever he was doing, the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and when he "WENT DOWNSTAIRS," a policeman questioned him as to his identification, and his boss stated that he was one of their employees. .... WHERE WAS OSWALD AT THE TIME THE NEGRO EMPLOYEE INVITED HIM TO LUNCH, AND BEFORE HE DESCENDED TO THE SECOND-FLOOR LUNCHROOM? The sixth floor." -- Vincent Bugliosi; Page 957 of "Reclaiming History" [All emphasis Bugliosi's.]
Bugliosi's sources:
WR, p.636; and 7 H 302, WCT Harry D. Holmes
Now, the conspiracy theorists can always claim that this report written by Harry Holmes is probably just a case of a person typing up a summary of his recollections of the things someone else said, and Holmes must have gotten something wrong. But, nevertheless, Holmes does put in his report that OSWALD stated that he "went down stairs" before he could finish what he was doing after speaking to Charles Givens. And we know Oswald was on the SIXTH FLOOR during his encounter with Givens.
Of course, no CTer in the world believes that Givens really did go back upstairs to the sixth floor to get his jacket and cigarettes that day; but that's another debate entirely. Although I would maintain that the wording we find in the above-linked report of Harry D. Holmes [Warren Report, page 636] most certainly does corroborate Givens' testimony about going back to the sixth floor around noon on November 22nd. This is the wording I'm talking about from Holmes' report -- "...one of the Negro employees invited him to eat lunch with him...".
[Click Here for some related comments about Harry Holmes' statements concerning Oswald.]
TONY FRATINI SAID:
David, how does any of that equate to LHO being the Presidential assassin?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Oh, I don't know, just all of this little piddly stuff I guess (I know you didn't ask for all of this evidence, Tony, but once I get started on all the things that lead to Lee Oswald's guilt, it's hard to stop at just one or two things)....
OSWALD was seen on the sixth floor (alone) shortly before the assassination.
OSWALD wanted an elevator sent back up to him. (Which he never did get, so he couldn't "lock it down" on the sixth floor, which is almost certainly what he had intended to do when he asked Givens to send it back up to him.)
OSWALD'S rifle was the murder weapon.
OSWALD'S rifle was found on the sixth floor.
OSWALD'S clipboard was also found very near the place where the rifle was found.
OSWALD'S prints are on the gun.
Shells from OSWALD'S gun are in the place where the assassin was located.
OSWALD'S prints are on two of the boxes found DEEP INSIDE the Sniper's Nest.
Various witnesses see a man who generally matches OSWALD'S description in the sixth-floor sniper's window shortly before the assassination.
One witness later positively identified OSWALD as the man he saw actually firing a rifle at JFK's car.
An EMPTY paper bag was found in the Sniper's Nest with two of OSWALD'S prints on it.
Bullet fragments from OSWALD'S rifle are found right in JFK's car.
A bullet from OSWALD'S gun was found inside Parkland Hospital by Darrell Tomlinson.
OSWALD leaves the building within minutes of the President's assassination.
Following his arrest, OSWALD told more lies than you can shake a stick at.
--------------
And then there's the Tippit murder, plus Oswald's guilty-like actions in the movie theater, plus the statements he made both inside the Texas Theater and in the police car on the way to City Hall, which are statements that reek with guilt.
Should we ignore all of that piddly little stuff I just mentioned in favor of Carolyn Arnold's wavering timeline? Or should we ignore all of it because of the estimated timeline provided by Victoria Adams? Or maybe we should just toss all of the above items in the trash because some conspiracy theorists think Charles D. Givens was a rotten liar.
It's going to take a bunch of excuses to erase all of the stuff I just mentioned. But I'm sure that conspiracy theorists have more than enough paper-thin excuses to meet the big demand.
TONY FRATINI SAID:
Did LHO fire the weapon? Yes or no?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yes. Of course.
Did you expect me to wake up this morning and suddenly change my mind and exclaim "Oswald is innocent after all!"?
To deny Oswald's involvement as a gunman in the JFK assassination, with all of this staring you in the face every day, is akin to denying that grass is green.
Let me ask conspiracy believers a simple question that shouldn't require too much exercising of the brain:
On any given day (11/22/63 or otherwise), who is more likely to be using Lee Harvey Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle? Lee Harvey Oswald or someone other than the rifle's owner?
Yes, yes, I know that all CTers will argue "It wasn't even proven that C2766 was Oswald's rifle!"
But those CTers couldn't be sillier if they tried. And everybody knows why. Again, this is like trying to argue that the sun is ice cold.
MARTIN WEIDMANN SAID:
So, Dorothy Garner, who remained near the stairs on the 4th floor when Adams and Styles went down and who saw Baker and Truly come up, just somehow completely missed Oswald racing down from the 6th floor just moments after Adams and Styles started their descent? Really?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Why in the world would anyone think Dorothy Garner had her eyes transfixed on the STAIRS every single second immediately following the President's assassination? How silly would that be, considering what had just happened outside those fourth-floor, SOUTH-SIDE windows just moments earlier?
Why would she (or anyone) have kept a vigil on the staircase?
Therefore, since it makes no logical sense to think that Garner (or ANYBODY ELSE) had their eyes peeled on those stairs every second, Oswald could have easily been on that 4th-floor landing for a matter of--what?--five seconds and not been seen by anyone who was on the same floor.
Or do conspiracy theorists REALLY want to contend that Dorothy Garner never took her eyes off those stairs between 12:30 and 12:32 PM? That's incredibly silly to believe that's the case (even if she DID catch a glimpse of Truly and Baker).
TONY FRATINI SAID:
David,
She [Dorothy Garner] followed Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles out of her office and into the open office space.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
What's the source for this? There is no Warren Commission testimony for Garner at all. And that detail certainly isn't in the "Stroud" document. So please provide the source for what you just said. (BTW, I'm not saying a source for what you just claimed does NOT exist. I just don't recall ever seeing it.)
In any event, there's no way to say for sure that Garner saw every single thing that was going on by those stairs in the operative time period when Oswald would have been using that staircase. It's impossible to fine-tune and micro-analyze any witness' timeline to such an extreme degree.
Ergo, Oswald (or the "mystery assassin" that most CTers think was shooting from the sixth floor instead of Mr. Oswald) could have slipped past any and all witnesses on the fourth floor of the Book Depository Building that day. And nobody can possibly prove otherwise.
TONY FRATINI SAID:
The source, David, is Dorothy Garner herself.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
That doesn't answer my question.
When did Dorothy Garner make such a statement? What document is it in? What interview? Is it in an FBI interview somewhere? Give me the Mary Ferrell link (if there is one). Because it's certainly not located in the Stroud document. Nor is such information provided by Garner in her March 20, 1964, statement to the FBI [CE1381; at 22 H 648].
TONY FRATINI SAID:
This is why Mr Belin did NOT want her [Dorothy Garner's] testimony in an official published document, same with Sandra Styles, same with the remaining women on the fourth floor. It was easy to discredit one person - no chance with all eight.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I don't buy that B.S., Tony. Not at all.
Unlike what many conspiracy theorists have blatantly lied about over the years, the Warren Commission was NOT on a mission to suppress all pro-conspiracy witnesses. Such talk about the WC doing such a thing is pure tommyrot. And PROVABLY so.
All one needs to do is to just check the WC's list of witnesses, and many names immediately pop out as "pro-conspiracy" witnesses (with each of these witnesses saying something in their testimony that definitely does NOT support the "Lone Gunman" scenario). Such as these witnesses.....
Marguerite Oswald
S.M. Holland
Joe Marshall Smith
Lee Bowers
Billy Lovelady
Forrest Sorrels
Jean Hill
James Tague
Roy Truly
Arnold Rowland
Bill Shelley
Buell Wesley Frazier
Clint Hill
Paul Landis
Roger Craig
Joe Molina
Danny Arce
Ronald Fischer
Plus many others, which can all easily be located via this handy witness list.
TONY FRATINI SAID:
No one slipped past the women on the fourth [floor], except by the WEST elevator.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You can't possibly prove any such thing. You'd have to prove that Dorothy Garner (and/or the other women on the fourth floor) were focusing their undivided attention on that stairwell. And you can't come close to proving that type of thing....and you know you can't.
MARTIN WEIDMANN SAID:
Garner told Barry Ernest that somebody from the Warren Commission contacted her once to ask some questions, but she heard nothing since from anybody.
Just because the WC did not call her to testify, does that mean that whatever she told Barry Ernest is not true? And if so, what evidence have you got to dismiss what she said as being not truthful?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I never said (or even HINTED) that ANYTHING Dorothy Garner ever said concerning this matter was not truthful. In fact, I was very careful in my verbiage when I said this to Tony F. tonight:
"What's the source for this? There is no Warren Commission testimony for Garner at all. And that detail certainly isn't in the "Stroud" document. So please provide the source for what you just said. (BTW, I'm not saying a source for what you just claimed does NOT exist. I just don't recall ever seeing it.)" -- DVP
I had a feeling that the source for Garner's statement that was mentioned earlier by Tony might have been Barry Ernest's book. But can you provide an exact quote from Garner herself (via the pages of "The Girl On The Stairs"? I was just trying to verify this comment made by Tony F. from earlier....
"She [Dorothy Garner] followed Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles out of her office and into the open office space." -- T. Fratini
MARTIN WEIDMANN SAID:
David, can you come close to proving that Oswald slipped by the guys on the 5th floor and the women on the 4th floor without being seen by anybody?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I would answer a resounding "YES" to your above inquiry, Martin. Reason being, of course, is the huge pile of evidence that tells all reasonable and sensible people that Lee Harvey Oswald DID shoot President Kennedy with Rifle #C2766 on 11/22/63.
Therefore, Oswald had no choice (given the fact that there was no other means of escape at that time from the 6th floor of the TSBD) but to have gone down those northwest stairs to the second floor, where he was seen very shortly after the assassination by both Truly and Baker. Which means that Oswald would have had no choice but to have also been on the fourth-floor "landing" (if that's what it's called) as he made his way down from the fifth floor to the fourth, and then to the third.
Do I have a PICTURE of Oswald travelling such a course within the Book Depository on November 22nd?
No, of course I don't.
But that pesky SUM TOTAL of stuff that indicates--without question--that Lee Oswald was the assassin of JFK isn't going to suddenly disappear into a puff of smoke just because nobody caught a glimpse of the fleeing assassin going down the stairs that afternoon.
The gun, the shells, the brown paper bag shaped somewhat like a "gun case", Oswald's prints, and Oswald's wealth of LIES that he told the police after his arrest are still going to be there tomorrow and next week and next year.
And that evidence is NOT pointing to James Braden with a Mauser from the Dal-Tex.
Nor is it pointing to James Files with a Fireball from the Grassy Knoll.
It's pointing directly and unwaveringly to Lee Harvey Oswald with a Carcano from the southeast sixth-floor window of the Book Depository.
And I'm not tossing all this evidence down the toilet because of something Dorothy Garner might have told author Barry Ernest many years later. Or because of what Garner told Martha Stroud on June 2, 1964, either. Because that document does NOT exonerate Lee Oswald. Not even close.
MARTIN WEIDMANN SAID:
David, an assumption (because that's all this is) is not proof of anything. It's not even evidence. All you are doing is working backwards from the predetermined conclusion that Oswald was the shooter on the 6th floor.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I most certainly am not doing any such thing. I am utilizing the sum total of evidence that was amassed in this case, and I am then arriving at a logical conclusion based on that evidence.
If I had really arrived at a "predetermined conclusion that Oswald was the shooter", as you suggested, I would have arrived at that conclusion BEFORE ever glancing at ANY of the evidence. And I have not done any such thing.
And, I might add, the physical evidence that exists in this case has absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with the Warren Commission either. I get annoyed at conspiracists who keep telling me that it was the "Warren Commission's evidence against Oswald".
To that I say -- Hogwash!
The evidence in the JFK and Tippit murder cases wasn't originally gathered by the Warren Commission or its staff. It was gathered by the Dallas Police Department and the Secret Service. And it was all gathered many days before the Warren Commission was even created.
The WC merely evaluated that evidence. The Commission didn't CREATE it. But a lot of conspiracy theorists I talk to seem to be of the opinion that it was the Commission members THEMSELVES who placed all those bullets and guns and shell casings and fingerprints of Oswald's into the evidence pile. But such thinking is just plain wrong.
The Dallas police gathered quite a bit of physical evidence in the first few hours after the assassination. And every bit of it points to Lee Oswald. You know that, Martin. Why even try to deny that fact?
And since when do police departments go around officially charging people with DOUBLE MURDER if they've got no solid evidence to back up the charges (and multiplied by TWO murder charges too)?
Within twelve hours of President Kennedy being shot, Lee Harvey Oswald had been charged with the murders of both JFK and Officer Tippit. So, quite obviously, the DPD had enough evidence in their possession (and enough circumstantial facts as well) to feel confident enough to formally charge (and then arraign) Lee Oswald for those two crimes before the sun ever came up on November 23rd.
I know that most conspiracy believers couldn't care less about the things I just stated above. But, in my opinion, the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was formally charged and arraigned for the murders of BOTH John F. Kennedy and J.D. Tippit is a "DAY ONE" fact that shouldn't just be tossed aside or ignored. I think it's pretty important.
David Von Pein
February 2011
May 2013
October 2014 [This forum link is no longer available.]
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DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
The 1966 audio file linked below includes a very rare interview with assassination witness Victoria Adams, who is, of course, a witness that a lot of conspiracy theorists love to prop up as "proof" that Lee Harvey Oswald could not possibly have gone down the back stairs of the Book Depository just after the assassination due to the fact that Miss Adams did not see or hear anyone on those stairs when she and Sandra Styles used them to descend from the 4th floor to the 1st floor very shortly after JFK was shot on 11/22/63.
But the notion that the entire case against Lee Oswald should be flushed down the toilet merely due to the estimated timeline of events as described by Vickie Adams is a very silly notion indeed.
I think the most interesting thing that is heard in the 1966 interview with Adams is when she talks about the three mistakes that were made by the Warren Commission during the time she was providing her testimony to the Commission in April of 1964. And the three errors that Adams mentions are things that are completely innocuous and relatively unimportant in nature, with none of the three items dealing with any substantive matters at all.
And yet, to hear many conspiracy theorists tell it, Victoria Adams was one of the many witnesses who has said she had key portions of her published testimony "altered" or "changed" by the Warren Commission.
But if that had truly been the case, then why on Earth wouldn't she have said something to Mark Lane and Mort Sahl about that very important fact during her fairly lengthy 1966 interview when she starts talking about the various things that the Commission got wrong in her published testimony?
But instead of raking the Commission over hot coals for "altering" or "eliminating" some of the things she had actually said during her testimony, she didn't say a single word in her 1966 interview about the Warren Commission altering anything that anyone could possibly consider to be of great value or substance whatsoever. She talked only about three very unimportant things that the Commission stenographer got wrong, which are things that I would classify as merely "typos" and nothing more than that.
After hearing Vickie Adams' total silence in 1966 when it comes to certain parts of her WC testimony allegedly being "altered" before it was publicly published (relating specifically to Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady), it makes me wonder if this rarely-heard 1966 interview with Victoria Adams has inadvertently debunked (at least in part) yet another conspiracy-flavored myth that has endured for decades. That being: the "Altered Testimony" myth (at least with respect to Vickie Adams' testimony specifically, at any rate).
And we must keep in mind when listening to Adams speak in this interview that she most certainly doesn't come across as a fan or a supporter of the Warren Commission in any way whatsoever.
Therefore, I think it's also quite obvious that her complete silence about any alleged "Shelley/Lovelady alterations" during this interview was not brought about as a result of Miss Adams being frightened of what might happen to her if she dared speak out in a negative manner about Earl Warren's Commission.
This interview with the then-25-year-old Vickie Adams was conducted by Mark Lane and Mort Sahl on November 25, 1966:
Audio Source: Click Here.
David Von Pein
December 2023
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DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Sandra Styles was, of course, with Victoria Adams when they went down the back stairs of the Book Depository shortly after the assassination on 11/22/63. Styles was not called to testify in front of the Warren Commission, but she did talk at some length with assassination researcher Sean Murphy in 2008. Here's what she told Murphy at that time:
[Quoting Sandra Styles:]
“I watched the motorcade from a south-facing window on the fourth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. With me was one of my Scott Foresman colleagues, Victoria Adams (who sadly passed away last year). When the shooting took place, we were not even aware at first that it was a shooting. It sounded like fireworks. President Kennedy was obscured from our view at the critical moments by tree foliage. All I could make out in those moments was the pink of Mrs. Kennedy's suit.
Contrary to what Vickie [Adams] told the Warren Commission, she and I did NOT go to the rear stairs within a minute or so of the shooting. First, we lingered by the window for quite some time, trying to determine what was going on outside. Things were very confused. Next, we made an attempt to take the front-of-building elevator downstairs. For some reason, however, this elevator—which, unlike the rear elevator, went only as high as the fourth floor—did not come when we called it. It was only after trying to call the elevator that we thought of going towards the rear stairs. And even then we did not proceed very quickly — we were wearing high-heel shoes!
While we were still in the office area, our view of the rear stairs was blocked by partitions. Anyone could have come down those stairs without us knowing about it. All this time we had absolutely no idea that shots might have come from the Depository building. As a result, I was paying very little attention to what was going on inside the building in those first few minutes after the assassination.
If the Warren Report estimated that Vickie and I reached the first floor via the rear stairs some 4 or 5 minutes after the shooting, then I'd have to say that sounds a little conservative. If anything, it was probably longer. I have no clear recollection of seeing Bill Shelley or Billy Lovelady (both of whom I had a passing acquaintance with) near the rear of the building when we reached the first floor. I have a vague recollection of seeing them at some point around the front entrance. But it's perfectly possible we did see them where Vickie said we did—near the freight elevator. I really wasn't paying much attention to people IN the building. I thought all the action was outside.
It always puzzled me how Vickie seemed to exaggerate the speed with which we went to the rear stairway. Although I was fond of her, I guess she was what you might call a 'person of drama'. I found the version of events she told people somewhat sensationalistic and at odds with my own memory of those minutes. I simply stated what I recalled, but I didn't contradict her because I felt I couldn't say what she saw or didn't see; just because I didn't recall it the same way did not mean she was in error necessarily. I am not that noble a person that I would not have contradicted her to the interviewers had it been necessary.
Why was Vickie the only one called to testify before the Warren Commission? I don't know. My recollection has always been that I WAS interrogated by a representative from the Warren Commission very briefly in our office, but there was no follow-up, whereas she was questioned more than once. I have wondered whether it might have been that her testimony required more investigation and mine was more plausible or I was less positive in my recollections than she.
Vickie was a very friendly and gregarious person, while I am more reserved and less outgoing. She may have exaggerated some points, while I was cautious about what I said, not wanting to mislead. In some instances, her version might be more accurate.”
-- Sandra Styles; July 2008
Source Link: Click Here.
David Von Pein
January 2024
(Click To Enlarge):
RECONSTRUCTING THE STEPS OF
A PRESIDENTIAL ASSASSIN
AN OSWALD TIMELINE
THE LUNCHROOM ENCOUNTER
