GIL JESUS SAID:
What proof is there that "A.J. Hidell" was approved to receive (TAKE OUT) mail at either of Oswald's Dallas Post Office Boxes (2915 or 6225)?
BUD SAID:
You show you are still ignorant about how post office boxes work. You don't need approval to get mail in a PO box, any mail that has the proper PO Box number will be delivered to it, regardless of what name is on the mail.
The kooks have themselves in a quandary over this issue. I doubt I can walk an idiot like Gil or robcap [Robert Caprio] through it, it seems beyond their capacities. There are two completely different aspects to the PO box issue: putting mail in, and taking mail out.
The post office will put ANY mail in that is addressed to that box, REGARDLESS of the name, because mail is sent to locations, not to individuals. So, mail addressed to anyone by name will go in if the PO Box number is correct, but only those authorized can take it out without breaking the law. Those are the people listed on the application.
"CURT JESTER" SAID:
So anybody could have rented the box and subscribed to newspapers and had them picked up.
BUD SAID:
I try one more time, I know you kooks are a stupid bunch. The person or people whose name is on the application can take mail OUT of the box. Mail going into the box can have any name under the sun on it, because it is mailed to the location, not to a particular individual.
Here's a true story that happened on my block. Two brothers lived together, had a falling out, and one moved out. The one brother told the mail carrier not to deliver mail addressed to his brother to his house anymore. The mailperson (a woman) explained to him that by law she had to deliver any mail addressed to that house to that house, regardless of the name on it (how would the mailperson know who was in the house anyway?).
The brother in the house is a bit of a psycho, and made some dire threat to the mailperson, something about cutting off her head if she put any of his brother's mail into his mail slot ever again. Later that day a small army of federal postal police turned up, and explained to him the regulations regarding mail delivery, and the dire laws involved with threatening a federal employee.
"CURT JESTER" SAID:
And it could have worked for mail too. Do you think you got any grey matter functioning by thinking a rifle could be picked up that way??
BUD SAID:
You are aware that Klein's was selling rifles through the mail, right? Who do you think handled these deliveries -- elves? It was mail, idiot. It gets delivered to the location written on them. The person renting the box picks up the mail delivered to his box.
I know this is all over your heads, which is why investigation is best left to professionals, and not random idiots.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
It doesn't seem to matter how many times this is explained to the kooks, it never sinks in.
Gil Jesus thinks "take out" and "receive" (as in: "a package or letter with Hidell's name on it is delivered to the P.O. Box") are the exact same thing.
As Bud has explained, a package delivered to PO Box 2915 in Dallas could have ANYBODY'S name on it, including "A. Hidell", and Oswald wouldn't have had a bit of trouble picking it up legally. Because when an oversized package is sent to a PO Box (or a residence), and the clerk is presented with the bona fide document left in the PO Box related to that delivery, the clerk assumes that the person with the receipt is entitled to the package. And no signature is needed either.
I've picked up many oversized packages this way myself at my post office. I've never once had to identify myself as the person whose name appears on the package, and I've never once been asked to sign anything to get the package either. I just hand them the yellow slip of paper, and they give me the package. Period.
So, the name "Hidell" appearing on the front of Oswald's rifle package from Klein's is meaningless to the post office workers. They couldn't care less about who the package is addressed to. It's the ADDRESS itself that is important. And that's the ONLY thing that matters. The name on the package is totally irrelevant.
Oswald would have gotten his Carcano package if the name on the label had said Nikita Khrushchev.
BUD SAID:
I can send mail to any PO box or address in the United States. I can buy any item from any catalog, and have it shipped to any location in the United States. I can open a PO Box, and order anything under any name I want to, and have it sent to that box.
Let's say I have a PO box number 100. I can send a money order to TV Guide under the name "Gil Jesus is a fucking idiot", and give the PO box number 100 as the location I want the TV Guide delivered. I will get TV Guides in my PO box. I will be able to take these TV Guides out of the PO box, even though my name is not "Gil Jesus is a fucking idiot".
[...]
Let's say Hidell existed, and he and Oswald shared the box. How would the post office know if Oswald was taking only Oswald's mail, and Hidell was taking only Hidell's mail? They don't get involved. Their responsibility ends in getting the mail to the location on the item.
Now, if Hidell complained that Oswald was opening his mail, then there might be a problem, as this is against the law. But there would have to be a complaint. The only reason I can think of that the post office would require the name of people having access is so if a dispute does arise, they can say "Well, you gave him access".
But really, from what I see, anyone with the key to the PO box can access it, the boxes are in the lobby, and no one checks ID.
I'll tell you what I will do, Gil. I will look into opening up a small PO box. If I do this, I will put the PO box # number here [in a post at the alt.conspiracy.jfk Usenet newsgroup/forum]. You can send a letter to the PO box in any name you can think of, and in the letter you can put a phrase. If I can repeat the phrase here, you will start a post stating "I am Gil Jesus, and I am the stupidest man on the face of the Earth."
You game?
If you want, you can send a box that won't fit in the PO box, address it to "Santa Claus" or whatever you like, and if it has my PO box number on it, they will hold the box for me and give it to me, even if it isn't in my name (because it was sent to my box).
GIL JESUS SAID:
Bud, it seems that you'd rather insult people than answer the question and I always have to ask you these questions over and over and over again.
BUD SAID:
Long after they've been answered. You are just too stupid to understand the answers, so you keep repeating the question.
GIL JESUS SAID:
JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION PLEASE
What proof is there that "A.J. Hidell" was approved (by Oswald, the applicant) to receive (TAKE OUT) mail at either of Oswald's Dallas Post Office Boxes (2915 or 6225)?
Is that question too hard for you to understand?
Or are you just into jerking people?
BUD SAID:
A.J Hidell is a fictitious person, created by Oswald, idiot. Imaginary people cannot pick up mail, idiot. Any mail that went to that PO box was likely picked up by a real person, Oswald. Oswald had access to the PO Box, therefore had access to any items sent to it, REGARDLESS OF THE NAME ON IT, YOU FUCKING IDIOT!
Apparently Oswald put the Hidell name on the application as a person entitled to receive mail on his New Orleans PO box. It is possible he had the same trouble grasping the nuances of getting mail out of the box sent in a different name as you are exhibiting.
Once he had the New Orleans box, he may have realized that he didn't need the Hidell name on it at all, he only needed to put the Hidell name on the stuff being sent to him (weapons and newspapers), and he could get these things without Hidell's name on the PO box at all.
In any case, Hidell, being non-existent, was handicapped from getting the stuff sent in his name. Now tell me again how I haven't answered the question, and I'll get a gradeschooler from the South to attempt an explanation.
"CURT JESTER" SAID:
Now tell how the Fed's kidnapped you to a MK Ultra camp.
BUD SAID:
Well, first they shot me with a sleep dart fired from an umbrella. Then they replaced me with a double, so that no one would know I was gone. They put me in a cell with a TV that only showed Disney films 24/7.
They said that if I didn't cooperate, they [would] feed my nuts to rabid weasels. They told me my country needed my services, that the CTers in this newsgroup, although comprised mainly of the stupidest folks on the planet, were somehow getting close to cracking the JFK conspiracy (something about retardation in its purest form having powers far beyond that of the rational mind). So, I signed on to thwart that process, by pointing out to them how mail works.
BUD LATER SAID:
If Klein's broke some postal regulations when it shipped rifles, what does that have to do with Oswald getting this rifle in Hidell's name?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Curt must think that a PO Box is entirely different from a home mailbox, right Curt?
Because the NAME on a piece of mail has absolutely no bearing on if it gets delivered to a person's home mailbox. Why on Earth would a "PO Box" have different rules in this regard? It's stupid to think a PO Box has different rules in this regard.
And how on Earth can the post office employees know for certain WHO is living at a particular residence at any particular time and, therefore, might get mail delivered there? They can't, of course.
The mail is delivered to the ADDRESS...not the INDIVIDUAL.
And WHY would a PO BOX be ANY different at all?
I've picked up many large boxes at the P.O., too, and have never been asked for ID of any kind. The P.O. assumes that the person who has the yellow slip in their hand is entitled to receive the package associated with that yellow slip of paper.
"CURT JESTER" SAID:
You have no understanding of Postal procedures or law. You have never ordered a firearm before.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Then go blame Klein's....not the post office.
As Bud pointed out earlier, is the post office supposed to X-ray every package or look in every "sporting goods" package to see if it contains some kind of "firearm" before handing it over to the recipient?
Did Klein's mark their rifle packages with the word "FIREARMS" or something like that? I have no idea if they did or not, but I think Bud is right in the sense that you kooks seem to be blaming a potential legal error made by KLEIN'S on the POST OFFICE.
Seems to me, in this area of "mail-order guns", it's up to the SOURCE supplying those guns (in this case, Klein's in Chicago) to meet all of the specific legal requirements for shipping those guns to customers. The post office is merely the 'middle man' in this scenario, between the source (Klein's) and the recipient (Oswald).
Is it the kooks' contention that the post office should be liable and responsible for a gun reaching the hands of a person who ordered it from a mail-order company, even if that mail-order company doesn't fulfill its legal obligations?
Also:
Do the conspiracy theorists of the Earth have some verification that Klein's was not meeting its legal burdens when mailing people (such as Oswald/Hidell) the rifles they were ordering in 1963?
"CURT JESTER" SAID:
By your biased scenarioizing MO, people could just order a rifle from 7-11, as there would be no restrictions on getting one, as it would be like any other product.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Again, gripe to Klein's about it then. The post office has nothing to do with this type of argument (at least in circa 1963-1964 anyway). And the Warren Commission testimony of Harry D. Holmes proves that fact.
The post office delivers the mail. They aren't responsible for any laws that might be broken by the companies that mail it.
RIFLE-RELATED ADDENDUM:
Whenever the topic of Oswald getting a gun through the mail comes up, I'm always reminded of an episode of a TV show ("The Fugitive"), made in 1966, not too many years after the JFK assassination.
Now, I know I'll probably get blasted by the CTers for even mentioning a "TV show" script when talking about John Kennedy's murder, but this episode of "The Fugitive" always pops into my mind anyway when thinking about the subject of "mail-order rifles".
The TV episode I'm talking about is called "In A Plain Paper Wrapper", and it co-stars a young Kurt Russell as the leader of this local gang of kids in a small U.S. town.
Kurt and his buddies send away for a rifle by mail-order (and then they use it to try and capture "the fugitive", Dr. Richard Kimble). One of the kids in the gang, a 12-year-old boy, goes to the local post office and comes out with the mail-order rifle in his hands. A 12-year-old boy picked it up. (And the box was marked "firearms" too, if my memory serves correctly.)
Now, I'm guessing that famed producer Quinn Martin (who helmed "The Fugitive" from 1963 to 1967) probably always aimed for a certain sense of realism and accuracy in the scripts that ended up ultimately being filmed for the TV audience to watch.
So I can't help but wonder if the script for "Paper Wrapper" wasn't actually pretty accurate with respect to the scene which has this small boy able to walk out of a U.S. post office with a rifle in his arms.
Yes, this "TV" example of a boy picking up a rifle at the post office is proof of NOTHING with respect to this discussion about Lee Oswald's rifle. I'll readily admit that. And I'll even stress that fact.
But I also can't help but wonder if that very same gun-purchasing and gun-obtaining scenario hasn't played itself out in just that way in hundreds of post offices around the USA over the years.
And, as conspiracy advocates like to point out so often when discussing Oswald and his mail-order rifle, evidently Oswald could have gone into any gun shop in the state of Texas and walked out with a rifle that "could never be traced" (to quote from Oliver Stone's movie).*
* BTW, I've always found that so-called fact to be very hard to believe. Didn't gun-shop owners, even in 1963, require purchasers to present any kind of I.D. at all? Seems very strange to me. But, I'll admit, I don't have the slightest idea what the regulations were in Texas for purchasing firearms in the year 1963. [Also see the related posts HERE, HERE, and HERE.]
But if it, in fact, is true that Oswald could have bought a rifle that "could never be traced" at a gun store in Texas, then what did Klein's do that was any different than what the gun-shop owners were doing, circa 1963, when it came to gun purchases (from the standpoint of ensuring that the weapon being sold was going to end up in the hands of the right person)?
Seems to me that the answer to that last question is --- Nothing.
GIL JESUS SAID:
Because "Hidell's" name wasn't on the application, even Oswald wouldn't have been able to pick up a package with a Hidell ID.
BUD SAID:
It's tough to keep explaining these things to idiots. What did [Postal Inspector] Holmes say about picking up packages too large to fit in the PO box, idiot? Have you offered anything that shows what he said to be wrong?
GIL JESUS SAID:
Holmes was a liar.
BUD SAID:
That should be easy enough to prove. Just cite a regulation concerning mail sent to a PO box that contradicts him.
GIL JESUS SAID:
To think the larger packages were just handed off to whoever came looking for them without any verification of identity is nothing but BS.
BUD SAID:
Again, we have an expert stating the regulations and procedures. Again, an idiot says he doesn't like what the expert said, offering nothing of substance to contradict the expert.
It has been explained to these idiots that a ticket is placed inside the PO box. This ticket does two things...it alerts the person renting the box that there was a package too big for the box sent to it, and the ticket verifies to the people at the desk that they are holding an oversized box for the person with access to that PO box (if they didn't have access to the PO box, they wouldn't have the ticket).
What this issue proves once again is that you kooks are clueless idiots. And you do nothing to cure your ignorance, you just keep saying "I can't believe this".
ROB CAPRIO SAID:
What a bunch of bull. The package comes in, it says A. Hidell on it along with the box number. They look up the box number and see it belongs to a Lee H. Oswald. Then they pull his application to see if this name, Hidell, is allowed to receive mail at this box. Guess what??? It is NOT listed, thus they would have to return the package to the sender and say you have sent it to the wrong address.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Like a good mega-kook, Rob's up to speed -- i.e., ignore anything and everything in officialdom that might lead down a path of guilt for the patsy. Like these words uttered by Harry D. Holmes:
WESLEY LIEBELER -- "Now, supposing that Oswald had not, in fact, authorized A. J. Hidell to receive mail here in the Dallas box and that a package came addressed to the name of Hidell, which, in fact, one did at Post Office Box 2915; what procedure would be followed when that package came in?"
HARRY D. HOLMES -- "They would put the notice in the box."
MR. LIEBELER -- "Regardless of whose name was associated with the box?"
MR. HOLMES -- "That is the general practice. The theory being, I have a box. I have a brother come to visit me. My brother would have my same name---well, a cousin. You can get mail in there. They are not too strict. You don't have to file that third portion to get service for other people there. I imagine they might have questioned him a little bit when they handed it out to him, but I don't know. It depends on how good he is at answering questions, and everything would be all right."
MR. LIEBELER -- "So that the package would have come in addressed to Hidell at Post Office Box 2915, and a notice would have been put in the post office box without regard to who was authorized to receive mail from it?"
MR. HOLMES -- "Actually, the window where you get the box is all the way around the corner and a different place from the box, and the people that box the mail, and in theory--I am surmising now, because nobody knows. I have questioned everybody, and they have no recollection. The man would take this card out. There is nothing on this card. There is no name on it, not even a box number on it. He comes around and says, "I got this out of my box." And he says, "What box?" "Box number so and so." They look in a bin where they have this by box numbers, and whatever the name on it, whatever they gave him, he just hands him the package, and that is all there is to it."
MR. LIEBELER -- "Ordinarily, they won't even request any identification because they would assume if he got the notice out of the box, he was entitled to it?"
MR. HOLMES -- "Yes, sir."
MR. LIEBELER -- "It is very possible that that, in fact, is what happened in this case?"
MR. HOLMES -- "That is in theory. I would assume that is what happened."
-------------------
Rob Caprio also misinterprets the words "allowed to receive mail". He thinks this prohibits Oswald from picking up mail that has been addressed to A. Hidell at Box 2915. But, of course, that's not the case at all.
A letter addressed to "Rob The Moron" at Box 2915 would still have been put inside Box 2915. And who would have received that letter addressed to Rob? Oswald of course, when he opened his box next time.
Rob must think that ALL mail addressed to anybody but Lee and Marina Oswald was not put in the PO box, instead it was confiscated and held back by the post office and taken to the back rooms (with the large packages).
This premise, of course, is idiotic. I get mail occasionally addressed to someone else, but it still gets delivered. That's because they deliver to the ADDRESS....not the PEOPLE.
ROB CAPRIO SAID:
If LHO was having the rifle sent to his OWN box anyway, why NOT just use his OWN name? IF Hidell was listed as an alias to LHO, and it was not, what good was ordering it under the alias's name in the first place?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yeah, it was pretty silly of the patsy framers to do something so transparently obvious and phony....wasn't it Rob?
Why do you suppose the patsy framers did this? Especially with sharp-eyed idiots like Rob on the case to expose their obvious fraud?
"CURT JESTER" SAID:
You could look it up, ask a carrier, take a trip to your post office.
BUD SAID:
Why would I look it up, I know how mail is handled. You're the ignorant party, I've tried to enlighten you, to no avail. The information is there, DVP provided it, Holmes supplied it, you just don't like it. BTW, it's unlikely I could get 1963 postal regulations from a mail carrier or post office.
"CURT JESTER" SAID:
Of course when the WHOLE process is a fabrication, a false P.O. box name alias that is tied to an Oswald known in advance by a band of conspirators would deem having this name the ONLY way to go. Bone up on postal regs and all of Harry [Holmes'] deeds, Bud. You'll end up needing them.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You kooks just never stop, do you? You'll go to whatever lengths necessary to take that rifle out of Oswald's hands.
And not just on 11/22/63 itself -- but the kooks seem to practically want to deny the existence of the Klein's C2766 rifle entirely....it's as if it never even existed at all, despite the paper trail leading from Oswald to Klein's and back to Oswald again (via the backyard photos and C2766 with LHO's multiple prints on it in the TSBD on 11/22).
Why don't the kooks just pretend that JFK wasn't killed at all?
David Von Pein
October 2008
