ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
I saw nothing at your links which addressed the late night call, telling Tomlinson to keep his mouth shut...
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
~sigh~
You obviously didn't click this link then.
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
...or about the statements of Connally, Wade, Nolan and Bell, regarding the actual bullet that wounded Connally.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
~another sigh ~
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
[Bobby Nolan] delivered that bullet to the DPD on the night of [November] 22nd [1963]. It couldn't [possibly] have been the one that Tomlinson found.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Nolan didn't "deliver" any whole bullet to the DPD. And you have absolutely no evidence to back up such a claim.
If Nolan had delivered an intact bullet to the DPD that had dropped off of Governor Connally's stretcher, that bullet would be part of the official evidence in this case today. And, of course, no such additional "whole bullet" (other than CE399) exists in the record, does it Bob?
Now Bob will pretend the "whole Nolan bullet" was swept under the rug by the evil DPD (and/or the wicked FBI). Won't you, Bob?
Bob probably should have learned a lesson from Jim Sibert and Francis O'Neill about how BULLET FRAGMENTS can get turned erroneously into WHOLE MISSILES:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/Interview With James Sibert
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/Interview With Francis O'Neill
Very similar to the Sibert/O'Neill mistake, it couldn't be any clearer that the "Wade/Nolan/Connally bullet" is, in reality, only the BULLET FRAGMENTS that were removed from John Connally's wrist.
The exact same kind of "Fragments become a whole bullet" mistake that has plagued the Sibert/O'Neill FBI report undoubtedly also occurred with respect to any comments about a whole "bullet" that were made by Henry Wade, Bobby Nolan, Audrey Bell, or anyone else associated with those bullet fragments which became Warren Commission Exhibit No. 842.
Some of those people might have casually referred to the item they handled as a "bullet", but what they really handled were just fragments--just like the corpsman who wrote up the "missile" memo that is connected to the Sibert/O'Neill report.
[JUNE 2015 EDIT: But please take note that nowhere in the actual Sibert/O'Neill FBI report--which can be found HERE--does it say that any "missile" (or "missle" [sic]) was removed from the body of the late President Kennedy during the autopsy. In fact, Sibert and O'Neill specifically say on
Page 4 of their 11/22/63 report that "two fragments of metal" were recovered. But nothing about a whole bullet (or "missile") being retrieved from the body of the President.]
[DECEMBER 2016 EDIT: Here's some information, unearthed by researcher Jean Davison in December of 2016, concerning a couple of documents pertaining to Nurse Bell, Bobby Nolan, and the Connally bullet fragments....
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
I searched the online Dallas Morning News archive for Tomlinson and didn't find much, but I did find this in a 4/22/77 article by Earl Golz:
After ID-ing Bill Stinson as a Connally aide who was in the OR, Golz wrote that Stinson "was with the nurse when she placed several bullet fragments from Connally's wrist into an envelope." The nurse is ID-ed as Audrey Bell. The article continues:
"There was more than one fragment (placed in the envelope)," Stinson said. "I don't remember how many." [the phrase in parentheses was in the article, not an addition by me]
Mystery nurse identified! Mysterious second bullet goes poof!
[...]
Notice the similarity to your FBI document on Stinson in that no whole bullet is mentioned, only "a fragment." Stinson was there with Nolan, who told you [Robert Harris] that he never saw what was in the sealed envelope, so he didn't know what was in it.
There's also this DPD document listing where various items of evidence came from. It says:
"Bullet fragments taken from body of Governor Connally
Mrs. Audrey Bell, operating room nurse, to Bob Nolan, D.P.S., to Capt. Fritz, to Crime Lab, to FBI"]
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
Did she [Parkland nurse Audrey Bell] correctly tell Wade and Nolan that these were fragments, taken from surgery, but they misunderstood her, thinking she said it was a whole bullet, from Connally's "gurney"?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
That explanation you just laid out seems like the most reasonable one to believe, yes.
Somebody misunderstood something, that's for sure. It was very likely a simple, ordinary misunderstanding and/or miscommunication. Nothing more than that. Nothing sinister. No underhanded motives on anyone's behalf. That's the best explanation.
Plus, we know that Bobby Nolan never saw the contents of the envelope at all. Didn't he tell you personally, Robert, in a phone call that he only saw the envelope and never saw what was inside the envelope?
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
David, that "explanation" is idiotic.
Both men heard her say it was a whole bullet and Connally said it was a whole bullet.
Both men said she stated that it came from Connally's gurney, and Connally said it fell from his gurney.
And Bell flatly denied the FBI's claim that she said she gave the fragments to Nolan. Nolan was in full dress uniform that day and she was adamant that she gave the wrist fragments to two plain clothed agents, who were undoubtedly with the FBI.
Your "explanation" fails in every possible way that it could fail.
Probably the most ludicrous part of your argument is claiming that Wade and Nolan mistakenly believed she said it came from Connally's "gurney". That was totally unintuitive. The natural presumption would be that it was removed in surgery. They could only have remembered "gurney" if that was exactly what she said.
And the odds that each of them, in two different conversations, mistakenly heard her say "gurney" is beyond calculation. And it becomes astronomical if we consider that Connally also made the "mistake" of stating that the bullet did indeed fall from his gurney (or stretcher, in his words).
David, ALL of the evidence proves that the FBI fabricated false evidence, something they had been caught at before in other cases.
1. Every one of the four men who originally examined the stretcher bullet refused to corroborate CE399 as the same bullet.
2. The initials of the only two men to have marked the stretcher bullet are not present on CE399, which only contains the initials of FBI personnel who received it after it left Parkland.
3. Tomlinson was told by the FBI to "keep his mouth shut" about the stretcher bullet shortly after they were able to compare his bullet with large fragments from Dealey Plaza.
4. The FBI lied, claiming that agent Odum got a partial confirmation from Tomlinson and Wright, as Odum himself confirmed.
5. The FBI lied about what nursing supervisor Bell told them regarding the wrist fragments she processed - even claiming she said she only processed a single fragment.
The evidence is overwhelming, David. Interested lurkers can get the entire story, including sources, documents and verbatim statements, here:
http://jfkhistory.com/bell/bellarticle/BellArticle.html
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Naturally, I disagree with Mr. Harris. No "whole" bullet fell to the floor off of Governor Connally's "gurney" in the operating room at Parkland Memorial Hospital. And no "whole" bullet was retrieved by any nurse in the operating room at Parkland Memorial Hospital.
It is my opinion that if such a "whole" bullet had been retrieved by a nurse in Connally's operating room, it would be available to see as part of the official record in this case today. And no such bullet exists at all.
And since I am also of the opinion that neither the DPD or the FBI (or any other law enforcement officials) would have had any good reason under the moon to start "covering up" any of the evidence associated with the wounding of President Kennedy and Governor Connally, I also therefore do not believe that the Dallas Police or the FBI would have swept any such "whole bullet" under the carpet following the assassination of the President.
Call me naive and a Government-sponsored shill if you want. (It's okay, I'm accustomed to being called those things by now.) But those are my opinions nonetheless.
Bob Harris thinks, however, that he has PROOF beyond doubt that a whole bullet WAS, indeed, recovered in John Connally's operating room on 11/22/63. And therefore, my "opinion" is totally worthless and is merely the work of an "LNer" who is trying desperately to avoid the truth regarding the alleged lies and cover-up engaged in by various authorities after JFK was killed.
I, of course, disagree with Bob once again. He has NOT provided proof that a whole bullet was recovered from Connally's stretcher in the operating room. Just as Bob has also not provided proof that a gunshot was fired at Zapruder Film frame #285.
But my definition of "proof" is probably quite different from Robert Harris' definition. I think "proof" requires more than what Bob has provided us.
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
David, you can't talk your way out of this. Four very reliable witnesses were 100% consistent in their recollections.
It is insane to believe that Nolan and Wade both "mistakenly" thought that the nurse said the bullet came from Connally's gurney, while Connally "mistakenly" thought the bullet came from his gurney.
And all three of those men were consistent that this was a whole bullet. Do you really think that all of them made EXACTLY the same errors??
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Well, Bob, since it's my firm belief that this JFK case is filled with people who did, indeed, make "EXACTLY the same errors" --- such as the "Grassy Knoll" witnesses (who all made "EXACTLY the same errors"); and the three autopsy surgeons (who all, incredibly, made "EXACTLY the same error" regarding the true location of the entry wound in President Kennedy's head); and the many witnesses at Parkland Hospital (who all made "EXACTLY the same error" with respect to the location of the large wound in JFK's head) --- then yes, I do believe it's possible for multiple people to have been of the incorrect belief that the envelope handled by Officer Bobby Nolan contained a "bullet" rather than just "fragments", and that multiple people might have also gotten the erroneous impression that this alleged "whole bullet" had fallen directly off of Governor Connally's stretcher and onto the floor.
The two key pieces of mistaken information (the "whole bullet" and "falling from the gurney/stretcher") would have probably started with just ONE person saying those things.
The erroneous information then spreads to other people, who then relay the same mistaken information to still more people. That's how most false rumors get started. And they can spread fast too, like the erroneous report that spread throughout the world on 11/22/63 via radio, television, and the newswires about how a Secret Service agent had been killed during the assassination of JFK. But, of course, we know that no SS agent was killed--or even shot--during the shooting in Dealey Plaza.
Robert Harris will disagree with the above scenario due to John Connally HIMSELF, according to his own book, saying that he heard a bullet fall from his stretcher. But Mr. Connally never SAW any such "bullet", did he Bob? No, he didn't. So any metal object that he might have heard clinking to the floor could conceivably have been any number of metal objects, couldn't it? (And I have previously stated in another post the speculation that it was perhaps one of Mr. Connally's cuff links that fell to the floor.)
Plus, in all of Governor Connally's many interviews that he gave to the press following the assassination, how many times did he ever say anything at all about hearing a bullet falling to the floor in the Parkland operating room?
The answer to that last question is: Zero times.
Connally never once said anything at all about any such "operating room" bullet. It's in his book, yes. But don't you think it's a little strange that he never mentioned this "operating room bullet" episode in any of his many appearances that he made after November 22nd?
And you, Bob, surely can't imply that Mr. Connally was "covering up" anything in his post-11/22 interviews, right? Because if Connally was part of the proverbial "cover up", then he would very likely have never been so vocal about his belief that the Single-Bullet Theory was untrue. Would he?
THREE YEARS LATER, DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Commission Exhibit No. 2003 verifies further that Nurse Bell gave Officer Nolan FRAGMENTS and not a WHOLE BULLET.
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
I have asked Gary Murr to provide a source for this mythical receipt, but so far he has not been able to do so. The misaligned text on the right side suggests that someone wants us to think this was an HSCA item, but there is no mention of it in the HSCA reports, or even their 1977 interview of Bell.
[...]
It is disappointing that you would pitch a document which has no source or any form of verification.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
More fake stuff, eh Bob?
There's no end to it, is there?
And the notation about BELL giving NOLAN some FRAGMENTS in CE2003
(at 24 H 260) is fake too, right Bob?
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
Until you or someone else can verify the legitimacy of this document, and explain why it is nowhere in the National Archives or the HSCA records and was never mentioned in the HSCA's interview of Bell, it is worthless.
You seem to want us to believe that the FBI, which has a record of falsifying evidence in other cases as well as this one, is above reproach. And YES, I will declare an item as "fake stuff" if that's what the evidence and/or lack of evidence proves. My suspicion does not merit ridicule. What merits ridicule is your blind faith in an organization with a dubious track record, whose agenda is to "convince the public" that Oswald acted alone.
GARY MURR EXPLAINS HOW HE FOUND THE "BELL/NOLAN MEMO" AT THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES IN THE 1990s, HERE AND HERE.
GARY MURR SAID [CULLED FROM MURR'S POSTS LINKED ABOVE]:
...the document in question is not only not "worthless" but genuine and available at NARA.
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
Mr. Murr,
Am I overlooking something, or is there nothing in your messages which suggests that the particular receipt you linked was in the records turned over to the HSCA by Parkland hospital?
Are you suggesting that it was there, but no one in either the HSCA or ARRB was aware of it? I have found nothing in the HSCA records which suggests that this thing exists, and the National Archives couldn't find it either.
A Google search for the HSCA records listed in the vertical, misaligned text on the right side of this document leads to a mountain of information, so it would seem that these records were examined and catalogued, but there is no mention of this receipt anywhere among them, that I am aware of.
The HSCA label, however, does eliminate the possibility of it remaining in the Dallas Municipal Archives, wouldn't you agree?
So, it seems that no one in the HSCA, ARRB or the National Archives was aware of the existence of this alleged receipt. Someone else obviously was however, the person who gave a copy of it to you.
Who was that, Mr. Murr?
And how did he or she locate what no one else on the planet seems to have been able to find?
GARY MURR SAID:
Robert:
REALLY? I MEAN, REALLY? This answer on your part leaves me with the distinct impression that you have absolutely no idea or understanding of; [1] my response to your repeated requests to give you "proof" of the existence of the Audrey Bell receipt, though given the content of your reply you obviously still hold out the belief - or is it desire - that the document remain or must be a "forgery" of some sort and; [2] you have little idea of just how evidence in this case is catalogued and retrieved at NARA.
Have you ever been to the archives, had materials pulled by the archive staff for perusal, and then taken the time to thereafter copy any of these materials for future reference? In an effort to clarify my response not only for your edification but for everyone else who has an interest in this subject matter, I indicate the following....
The reason no member of the NARA staff would be able to find the Bell receipt, duly signed by the individual to whom the material was passed, Robert Nolan, is because it is not an individual item exhibit -- it does not exist as a singular piece of paper with its own assigned RIF sheet readily available for retrieval. It is but one sheet of paper in a larger file, which as I attempted to indicate to you, is a part of the records acquired by the staff of the HSCA. Copies of this same file -- and I repeat here the precise NARA file reference information where anyone can find and thereafter copy this same sheet -- HSCA: Record Number: 180-10096-10351: Numbered Files: Agency File Number: 001894. Box 39 -- are available for anyone to have.
As I also indicated in my prior response, this file exists at NARA in two slightly different versions, each of which is 100+ pages in length of composition, and I clearly indicated, via one of my footnotes, just what the minor differences were for each file. This same file was never a part of the records of the Dallas Municipal Archives but was and remains part of the records of the HSCA and has been since the "original" copy of the file was retrieved by HSCA Chief Investigator, Cliff Fenton, in 1977, the actual file/document arriving for HSCA staff perusal in July of that same year.
No one "gave" me a copy of this receipt -- I found it on my own during one of my research trips to NARA in the late 1990's. And to be honest with you, it literally was sheer luck that I was able to do so because as is my practice, when I go to NARA I stay for approximately a week at a time. I pre-order thousands of pages of documents from NARA staff months in advance of my arrival at NARA and on a day to day basis, file by file, I sit, like all other researchers, in a cubicle and go through each file that has been assembled for me by the NARA staff, page by page, making note of those that most interest me. It was while examining, and then later copying the Fenton acquired "complete" PMH [Parkland Memorial Hospital] medical history file on John Connally that I found the Audrey Bell receipt document -- again, but a single page in a file of over 100 pages, a file bearing the NARA RIF record identifier I have included herein in red type.
Gary
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Let's now wave Bye-Bye to Robert Harris' theory about Audrey Bell never giving ANY envelope to Highway Patrolman Bobby Nolan.
Please also take note of the signature of "Bob Nolan" in the Dallas County Hospital memorandum that Gary Murr dug up in the 1990s, and note the similarity in the "B" and the "N" in that signature when compared to Nolan's initials that he placed on the envelope that became CE842. Did somebody fake Bobby Nolan's handwriting on the hospital memo, Mr. Harris?
 |  |
What are the odds that Bob Harris will admit he was wrong all these years when he has insisted that "it was NOT Audrey Bell, a seasoned emergency room supervisor, who gave him [Bobby Nolan] that envelope" [quote from Robert Harris on August 4, 2011]? Not much of a chance at all, I wager.
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
This receipt has yet to be corroborated by the NA [National Archives], and you have made absolutely no attempt to verify it.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
It practically verifies itself. It's got Bobby Nolan's handwritten signature on it, perfectly matching the unique "B" that we also find in CE842 (when we turn Exhibit 842 upside down, that is).
The hospital memo also has Audrey Bell's signature on it too. Maybe we can get a handwriting expert in here to see if Bell's signature on the hospital memo matches any of the writing on CE842, which I believe has at least some of Bell's handwriting on it (but it looks like more than just Bell wrote some of the words we find on that envelope).
And the hospital memo also matches the information seen in CE2003, which says that BELL gave fragments (plural this time) to NOLAN.
That makes two documents that corroborate each other about Bell giving fragments (or a "fragment"), but not a whole BULLET, to Bob Nolan.
All fake, Bob? Including the nicely-matching signature of Nolan himself on the hospital memo/receipt?
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
"Nicely matching" what??
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
The B in "Bob", that's what. Which is exactly what I said before. So why are you asking?
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
You seem to have no concept of evidence.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Since the above quote comes from a man who prefers to believe a mountain of evidence is fraudulent in the JFK case, I find the irony thick and delicious.
CTers are habitual wolf cryers when it comes to declaring evidence "fake". It's become a rather ridiculous and patently transparent excuse for dismissing dozens of pieces of evidence that a CTer doesn't like.
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
Why is it that Lt. Alexander of the DPD never turned over this supposed receipt to either the PD or the FBI? It would have been critical to maintaining the chain of custody, yet he kept it in his office instead of doing what he had done a thousand times before when this kind of thing was sent to him.
Assuming he didn't have Alzheimer's, what is the most likely explanation?
That's right, he didn't pass it along because he knew it was bogus.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
How do you know precisely what Alexander did with it? And how do you know it wasn't seen by other members of the DPD or FBI?
Maybe somebody made a copy of it, and all that remains now is the copy that Gary Murr dug up for himself in the late 1990s.
In any event, that document positively has the handwriting of THREE different people on it, including Nolan's and Bell's writing. I guess you think the FBI (or somebody) forged BOTH Nolan's and Bell's signatures on that document, right? You must think their signatures are forgeries, since you're now saying you think the memo is "bogus".
What a surprise! Bob Harris thinks something is fake! But it's not too much of a shocker that Bob is now calling the hospital memo a "bogus" document. Because if he were to admit the truth—that Nurse Bell gave the bullet fragments to Officer Nolan after all—Mr. Harris would have to abandon one of his most treasured theories that he's put decades into promoting. And I doubt we'll ever see that happen.
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
Alexander must have known that this thing was phony, which is why he refused to send it to Will Fritz.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You have no idea whether Fritz saw the memo or not. So stop pretending you do know.
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
All of the evidence DPD processed was catalogued and listed along with descriptions. That "receipt" is nowhere to be found.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
But the "description" of the event (Nolan getting fragments from Bell) WAS indeed "catalogued" by the DPD. And we can all see it for ourselves in CE2003, at 24 H 260 (which is a document mentioned to Bob several times previously, but Bob prefers to believe that 24 H 260 contains yet another fake document; but the one in CE2003 is a DPD inventory of items, not an FBI list; so I guess Bob needs to implicate Fritz and the DPD in this part of the "Bell/Nolan cover-up" as well).
As the documents build up (and there's at least two now that verify that Nolan received fragment(s) from Nurse Bell), I need to ask Bob the same question I previously asked some of the members of The Education Forum in a discussion pertaining to Oswald's Postal Money Order....
"How many things that appear to be legitimate about the Hidell money order does it take for a stubborn CTer to admit that the money order is, in fact, very likely a legitimate document? .... At what point do the LEGITIMATE LOOKING THINGS on the document make you want to stop pretending everything's been put there by conspirators?" -- DVP; January 2016
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
Pretending that I form my conclusions based on some mythical need is hugely insulting, and you KNOW that is pure BS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You've now got TWO very good reasons to abandon your theory about Audrey Bell never giving any evidence to Bobby Nolan—those two things being: the hospital memo unearthed by Gary Murr and the DPD inventory sheet in CE2003.
But you still won't give up the notion that Bell never gave anything at all to Nolan, will you Bob? You will instead continue to rely on the decades-old memory of various people to promote your theory, instead of accepting those two pieces of HARD EVIDENCE which totally destroy your theory.
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
Cut the crap, David.
There is NOTHING in the DPD archives that even remotely describes the receipt we are talking about. Alexander obviously refused to send it to Fritz, who would have catalogued it along with all the other evidence.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Huh?? Why on Earth would you think the RECEIPT ITSELF would need to be "catalogued" and therefore show up in an "INVENTORY OF EVIDENCE" list like the one we find in CE2003? (Is that what you meant?) Do you think the hospital memo itself should have been mentioned on the DPD's inventory sheet? ~shrug~
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
And yes, the "description", AKA third hand statements that Bell passed a "fragment" to Nolan, was certainly in the files, but not a single person outside of the FBI claimed that Bell told them that. Strange, isn't it, that she told NO ONE about this except the FBI, who at the very least lied about the quantity that Bell processed, then lied about what Nolan and Stinson told them?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Nobody lied about this incident at all. Nobody. Audrey Bell was simply mistaken about the person to whom she gave the envelope containing the Connally bullet fragments. And via your own interview of Bobby Nolan, we know that Nolan himself didn't actually SEE what was inside the envelope. He had no idea what was in there. And Henry Wade's memory of the event must have also faded quite a bit too. He very likely conflated information concerning the "stretcher bullet" (CE399) with information about the envelope which contained only FRAGMENTS from Governor Connally's wrist. (What year did Wade say what he said about the "bullet" and the "gurney", Bob? I'm not sure when it was. Can you please inform me.)
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
Wade stated that in an interview in 1993. Are you going to claim that those men suffered identical delusions due to age? How did they manage to both come up with the bullet coming from Connally's "gurney" - exactly where Connally said it came from?
The "gurney" was unintuitive, David. The natural presumption would be that it was recovered in surgery. No one would just hallucinate something like that. They had to have been told.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
As I speculated earlier, I think it's merely a matter of conflating things. 1993 was thirty years after these events occurred. I think when Henry Wade said what he said about Connally's "gurney", he had thoughts in his mind of the CE399 "stretcher bullet". Wade knew that a whole bullet was, indeed, found on Connally's stretcher (or "gurney") at Parkland. And he also had in his mind an event at Parkland which involved a nurse and an envelope which contained some bullet fragments that were recovered from Governor Connally's body. Those two events, in my opinion, could very likely have become merged in Wade's head, so when Wade talked about the events of 11/22/63 in later years, he merged and conflated Stretcher Bullet 399 with a nurse holding an envelope which contained only bullet fragments.
If you want to accuse me of merely inventing a convenient excuse in order to dismiss Henry Wade's 1993 story, well, go ahead. But, nevertheless, "conflation" is what I think probably happened.
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
Bell told us exactly what happened and who she gave her fragments to - FIRST HAND.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
And she was obviously wrong. And the hospital memo plus CE2003, both of which existed in November of 1963, provide the PROOF she was wrong/mistaken.
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
You just keep blurting out things you couldn't prove to save your life.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
I'll be happy to accept this thing, if somebody can just prove it is valid.
And the officer it was allegedly sent to never put it into evidence -- probably because it was fabricated long after 11/22/63.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Why do you keep saying this? It was found in the NATIONAL ARCHIVES by Gary Murr, among lots of other "JFK evidence". Doesn't that count as being "put into evidence"??
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
Davey,
There is something called a chain of evidence in record keeping.
What Bob is saying is that this record did not follow that chain.
Now, there are other such pieces of paper in this case that have similar problems and most logical people now believe they entered the record after the fact and therefore we do not consider them valid.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Bob doesn't have the slightest idea what kind of "chain" that document followed. He just has a desire to call it a fake document---and that's because he's got a pet theory to push. And if that document is NOT a fake, then Bob's decades-long "Audrey Bell Never Gave Anything To Bobby Nolan" theory is toast. And I know Bob Harris doesn't like that idea at all.
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
It doesn't help you to lie about what I say and why I say it, David.
If this was a valid receipt, it would have been entered into evidence. That would be its only conceivable purpose.
If it was valid, Audrey Bell would have described multiple fragments on that receipt, not one. And she would have told the HSCA and ARRB that she gave them to a Texas Ranger, as is written on this "receipt".
If it was valid, officer Nolan would have told us the nurse he encountered said she had "fragments" taken during surgery, not a whole bullet from a stretcher.
If it was valid, DA Wade would have said the same thing. And he would never have seen her holding a bullet in her hand.
If it was valid, Stinson would have told Ramparts magazine that fragments were taken from Connally during surgery, not a whole bullet.
If it was valid, Connally would never have said a nurse recovered the bullet that wounded him.
And "Audrey Bell Never Gave Anything To Bobby Nolan" is not Robert Harris's theory. It is Audrey Bell's sworn testimony.
If that's not enough David, there are plenty of other very serious discrepancies we can talk about. But it does nothing for your credibility to pretend that this is all about my being closed minded. Prove that this is legitimate and I will agree with you, heart and soul. But so far, the evidence is overwhelmingly against you.
Being in a box, buried out of sight for decades, does not count as being put into evidence.
If it had been put into evidence, it would have been listed in the DPD's evidence archives after it was submitted by Lt. Alexander. But nothing even remotely similar to that is in the files. Do what I did and check it out yourself, David. You can start with box #1...
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box1.htm
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
~heavy sigh~
It was found in the National Archives files. And it's got the signatures of Bell and Nolan on it. That's not good at all for your theory....especially since we've got the DPD inventory list in CE2003 to corroborate the hospital memo that you think is "bogus".
When putting those two CORROBORATING documents together, we can safely label Bob Harris' "Audrey Bell Never Gave Anything To Officer Bobby Nolan" theory with this word ---- DEBUNKED!
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
How many times do I have to ask if you have verified those signatures, before you admit that you haven't even tried?
[...]
David, it is a FACT that Lt. Alexander never put this thing [the hospital memo] into evidence. If he had, it would have been listed in the DPD archives. Have you searched yet? I gave you a link.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yes, I went directly to the Dallas Municipal Archives website several days ago (before you ever provided a link) and searched all the boxes. I searched the Mary Ferrell site as well. I couldn't find a thing.
But the FACT remains that Gary Murr (bless him) dug up that hospital memo (dated "Nov. 22, 1963" in what appears to be Audrey Bell's own writing) in the NATIONAL ARCHIVES. It was at NARA among a lot of other JFK "evidence" and documents.
And despite your pretending to know who handled that document (and when), you really have no idea who saw that memo or why it was located where Gary Murr found it at NARA in the 1990s. And, of course, I don't have any answers to those Who?, When?, or Why? questions either. So you and I are in the same boat as far as that matter goes.
But just look at the B in Bob Nolan in the memo/receipt. And then compare it to Nolan's "BMN" initials in CE842....
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But, Bob Harris, even after you admit that the Bs are identical in writing style (and the Ns are very close too), are you the type of conspiracy believer who agrees with many other CTers, who have said to me: Well, Dave, we all know it's very easy to forge somebody else's signature?
If you do hold such an opinion, Bob (and I'm not saying you do; I'm just speculating that you MIGHT hold such a view), then what difference would it make at all if I were to "verify" Nolan's and Bell's signatures on the hospital memo?
Many CTers totally disregard and toss in the toilet the testimony of the several "experts" who have stated that all the rifle and revolver documents were definitely written BY LEE OSWALD. And I imagine those same CTers would also not accept the same determination regarding the Bell & Nolan writing on the hospital receipt (had there been such an "expert" determination).
David Von Pein
July 5, 2014
July 7, 2014
July 9, 2014
August 12-18, 2017
More of my battles
with Robert Harris
can be found HERE.
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