JFK ASSASSINATION ARGUMENTS
(PART 1052)


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Nobody who was standing on the TSBD steps would ever say they were "in the building". That's nuts. The steps are OUTSIDE the front door, for Pete sake [see photo below].




RALPH CINQUE SAID:

Response to David Von Pein on what Oswald said....CLICK HERE.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

The steps are OUTSIDE THE FRONT DOOR, Ralph! OUTSIDE! Not inside.

If you stepped out onto your front porch, which is OUTSIDE the front door, would you say you were "INSIDE" the house?


RALPH CINQUE SAID:

That's not a good comparison, David. If I step outside my front porch, I am completely outside in every sense of the word. If it's raining, I'm going to feel it. If the wind is gusting, I'm going to feel it.

What if there was another glass partition at street level and everything else was the same? Then, we wouldn't be having this discussion. What I'm saying is that the absence of that other glass partition really isn't that important. Your whole argument is more of a technical one than a real one. Oswald was very much within the confines of the building. He was NOT on the street.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I never said anyone on the steps would be "on the street". (Where did that silliness come from?)

But somebody who is standing on the TSBD's front steps is standing OUTSIDE THE FRONT DOOR of the Depository Building. And that is OUTSIDE the building---not INSIDE the building. And Oswald said this....

===================

LEE HARVEY OSWALD -- "I work in that building."

REPORTER -- "Were you in the building at the time?"

LEE HARVEY OSWALD -- "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes, sir."


===================

If Oswald had truly been on the front steps with many of his co-workers watching the parade, does any reasonable person really think he would have answered the question "WERE YOU IN THE BUILDING AT THE TIME?" the way he did answer it on 11/22/63?


BUD SAID:

How about this, if Batman was in the Batcave would you say he was in Wayne Manor?

I looked at some of the other people on the steps (Frazier, Lovelady, Shelley) and they seem to all use "out" or "outside" to describe their orientation. Is your [Ralph Cinque's] defense that Oswald was too stupid to know when he was in a building and when he was outside of it?


REPRISE....
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

If you stepped out onto your front porch, which is OUTSIDE the front door, would you say you were "INSIDE" the house?


CHRIS SAID:

Is it an 'enclosed porch'?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

You think the steps in front of the Book Depository Building are "enclosed", eh? Better look again. The steps are in the OPEN AIR and are not "inside" the building. Only a desperate conspiracy theorist could possibly think these steps and the TSBD landing could be classified as being located "inside" the building....







RALPH CINQUE SAID:

Stop the lies! Oswald outside!


BUD SAID:

Oswald said he was inside.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

LOL. Good one, Bud.

Ralph seems to contradict himself on this "Inside or Outside?" thing, because one of his slogans is....

"Stop the lies! Oswald outside!"

And yet Ralph also said this two days ago....

"Oswald was very much within the confines of the building." -- Ralph Cinque; 10/19/15

Maybe Ralph should change his slogan to:

"STOP THE LIES! OSWALD WAS OUTSIDE, ALTHOUGH HE WAS ALSO *WITHIN* THE CONFINES OF THE BUILDING!"


RALPH CINQUE SAID:

There is no contradiction involved, and you don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand it.

Oswald was outside in the sense that he was out the front door, breathing outside air. But, he was still within the confines of the building because he was in a very enclosed space (enclosed in all but one plane) within the building (deep to the street) and above ground level.

Not everything is black or white. And when you add the Fritz Notes in which Oswald said he was "out with Bill Shelley in front" that clinches it.

Understand something, Von Pein: the discovery of the Fritz Notes in the late 90s was the most important discovery in the case since November 22, 1963. And Lee Harvey Oswald should have been declared innocent the day they were discovered.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

LOL. Yeah, right, Ralph! Let's just accept YOUR inaccurate interpretation of the Fritz notes. Too funny.

And an even bigger laugh is needed here because, via Cinque's skewed interpretation of DPD Captain Will Fritz' handwritten notes, Ralph actually thinks that the accused assassin (to whom all the evidence leads) was telling the unvarnished truth when he said "out with Bill Shelley in front". Which, per Cinque, means that Lee Oswald was "out with Bill Shelley in front" of the Book Depository when the shooting was occurring (which is not what Fritz meant in those sketchy notes at all).

What Oswald meant, of course, was that AFTER the shooting, and AFTER his lunchroom encounter with Officer Marrion Baker, he went "out front" and saw "Bill Shelley" there near the front entrance of the building.

We know that Oswald told Captain Fritz that he was "having his lunch about that time [of the assassination] on the first floor" (quote from Fritz' police report; see Warren Commission Report; Page 600).

Fritz didn't say there on page 600 of the Warren Report that Oswald told him that he was "out with Bill Shelley in front" as the assassination was taking place. Oswald specifically said something completely different---that he was inside the building on the first floor having his lunch at just about the same time President Kennedy was shot (which was a big fat lie, of course).

If Oswald was innocent, Ralph, why did he tell that lie to Fritz about having lunch on the first floor at the time of the assassination?

Let me guess --- Cinque really thinks it was Captain Fritz who was the liar in that "first floor" statement allegedly made by Oswald. Right, Ralph?

Request --- The minute Ralph Cinque gets anything right regarding the events of November 22nd, 1963, somebody call MSNBC or CBS right away. Because that'll be big news.


RALPH CINQUE SAID:

Listen, Von Pein: You desperate people can misconstrue this as many times as you want, but the result is going to be a slap-down by me every time.

How many times do I have to tell you: SHELLEY WASN'T OUT THERE AFTER THE ASSASSINATION. HE LEFT IMMEDIATELY, BY HIS OWN ACCOUNT, AND DID NOT COME BACK.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that Fritz would have asked Oswald for his alibi, and Oswald would have wanted to tell it? And if you read the Fritz Notes, you'd know that Oswald spoke of eating his lunch in the 1st floor lunch room WHEN JUNIOR JARMAN AND THE SHORT NEGRO (HAROLD NORMAN) WERE HANGING AROUND. THAT WAS WELL BEFORE THE ASSASSINATION.

AND HOW DENSE AND SCLEROTIC HAS ALL THAT KENTUCKY FRIED CHICKEN MADE YOU?

By the time of his Warren Commission testimony, Will Fritz knew very well what was expected of him. He knew very well what it was, a Stalinist show trial with the explicit purpose of convicting Oswald, and they didn't want to hear anything to the contrary, least of all from him. By that point in time, Will Fritz was part of the conspiracy.

Shelley WAS in the doorway during the assassination. Shelley was WAS NOT in the doorway after the assassination. Oswald correctly cited Shelley being in the doorway, which means that he must have been with him WHEN SHELLEY WAS ACTUALLY THERE which was during the motorcade.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Or --- Oswald was simply telling a big fat lie to Captain Fritz for the purpose of trying to deflect suspicion away from the one and only person (LHO) who fired any rifle shots at JFK.

I'll go with that "deflecting suspicion" option instead of Ralph's version.

Sorry, Dr. Cinque. Your theory sucks. I don't buy it. And no other reasonable person who knows the facts of the JFK case will buy it either.


RALPH CINQUE SAID:

Bookhout changed it to be that he was out with Shelley after the assassination, which was not only wrong but impossible because Shelley was NOT out front when Oswald left for home, and that is clearly established in the testimonial record from multiple sources.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Of course it's wrong, Cinque. Because it's an obvious LIE being told by the ASSASSIN HIMSELF!

James Bookhout and J. Will Fritz weren't lying---Oswald was. Bookhout and Hosty and Fritz were merely taking notes as a LIAR was giving them false information.

But for some reason, Cinque thinks Oswald was telling the gospel truth when he said he was "out with Shelley". But regardless of the interpretation of those words (i.e., whether Oswald meant he was "out with Bill Shelley in front" DURING or AFTER the assassination), it's still a lie being told by Oswald, because we know via Shelley himself that Shelley never saw or talked to Oswald after about 11:45 or 11:50 AM on November 22 [see 7 H 390].

And yet, incredibly, Ralph Cinque thinks the "out with Shelley" note written by Captain Fritz "is the most important piece of evidence to be discovered in the JFK assassination since November 22, 1963."

Hilarious!

(Also see Tim Brennan's post HERE, in which Brennan synchronizes FBI agent James Bookhout's report with Dallas Police Captain J. Will Fritz' notes. They align perfectly with one another.)


RALPH CINQUE SAID:

So if they align. So what? They were both bent on the same deception. But actually, they don't align because Fritz said nothing about "out with Bill Shelley in front" and Bookhout did. So, you've really got nothing. Absolutely nothing.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

For Pete sake, Ralph, you seem to be all over the map on this thing. One minute you're claiming that Fritz' note where he writes "out with Bill Shelley in front" is "the most important piece of evidence to be discovered in the JFK assassination since November 22, 1963" [R. Cinque; 10/31/15].

And practically in your next breath you say "Fritz said nothing about "out with Bill Shelley in front" and Bookhout did" [R. Cinque; 11/6/15].

What gives, Ralph?

I'm guessing that you're talking about Fritz not putting that specific "out with Shelley" note in his longer, typed report that we find in the Warren Report (beginning on Page 599). Right?

But regardless of whether the note referencing "Shelley" was transferred to
Fritz' final report or not, Fritz still DID write "out with Bill Shelley in front" in his notes. And Bookhout's report aligns with Fritz' "Shelley" note, with Bookhout filling in more of the details about what Oswald MEANT when the topic of "out with Bill Shelley in front" came up during Captain Fritz' interrogation of Lee Oswald.

Bookhout's report on Page 619 of the Warren Report makes it quite clear that when Oswald told Fritz that he "went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley", Oswald was unquestionably referring to a point in time that was AFTER the assassination of President Kennedy and also definitely AFTER the second-floor lunchroom encounter that Oswald had with Marrion Baker and Roy Truly as well.

Why keep banging your head against a brick wall on this "Shelley" thing, Ralph? James Bookhout's report completely debunks your theory about Oswald being "out with Bill Shelley in front" at exactly 12:30 PM CST on November 22, 1963.


DONALD WILLIS SAID:

FBI Agent James Bookhout seems to know nothing about the solo report submitted in his name and reprinted in the Warren Report (pp619-620).


TIM BRENNAN SAID:

You mean, the one he dictated on 11/24/63 and then initialed after it was typed up on 11/25/63?


DONALD WILLIS SAID:

Yes, the report he "dictated" from no notes! In his testimony, he says agents destroy their notes when they finish the report, and he says he did.


BUD SAID:

Actually he gives no specific time for the destruction of the notes. Since the information in his report jives so closely with Fritz's notes, the inescapable conclusion is that he was working from notes he took during the interrogation of Oswald.


DONALD WILLIS SAID:

And [when] asked if anything survived re the "whole matter"--Bookhout says, No--just the one report, the Hosty/Bookhout [WCR; Pgs. 612-613] which they'd been discussing. No other report even suggested!


BUD SAID:

Quote Bookhout saying that the joint report with Hosty was the only report he wrote.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

FBI agent James W. Bookhout actually wrote THREE different SOLO reports on November 22nd and 23rd. Do conspiracy theorists think ALL THREE of these reports are fakes?....

BOOKHOUT'S NOVEMBER 22 SOLO REPORT --- WCR, PAGE 619

BOOKHOUT'S FIRST NOVEMBER 23 SOLO REPORT --- WCR, PAGE 621

BOOKHOUT'S SECOND NOVEMBER 23 SOLO REPORT --- WCR, PAGE 625

So, as we can see, there's nothing strange or unusual about an FBI agent writing up separate reports on the same day. There's different information being imparted in each report. There is some overlap of info when comparing the Bookhout/Hosty report with Bookhout's solo report, but new information is revealed as well.

I also think it's quite likely that the primary author of the joint Bookhout/Hosty report was James P. Hosty, whose name is listed first at the bottom of the report. I'm not sure if that's important or not, but there's some testimony from both Hosty [at 4 H 468] and Bookhout [at 7 H 312] to indicate that I'm probably right about Hosty doing most of the writing in that joint report....

MR. STERN -- "I believe that in the report you filed on this first interview, you or Agent Hosty, who joined in the report with you, used the adverb "frantically" to describe his [Oswald's] denial of an involvement. Does that refresh your recollection as to that? Would you use that word now, or was that your word?"

MR. BOOKHOUT -- "No; that was written by Hosty, and that would be his expression of describing it."

==================

MR. STERN -- "Is this your memorandum?"

MR. HOSTY -- "Yes, sir."

MR. STERN -- "It is signed or initialed both by you and by Mr. Bookhout."

MR. HOSTY -- "Right. The procedure is that when there are two agents involved, they both must approve it, so there can be no discrepancies."

MR. STERN -- "But you dictated it."

MR. HOSTY -- "I dictated it and he read it and we both approved it."

[...]

REP. FORD -- "There was no recording made of this interrogation?"

MR. HOSTY -- "No, sir; it was notes I took. Agent Bookhout and I took notes, and we dictated from the notes the next day."


~~~~~~~~

Now, the CTers can gripe about Bookhout not following this procedure in his solo report, which is a procedure mentioned by Hosty in his testimony:

"The procedure is that when there are two agents involved, they both must approve it, so there can be no discrepancies."

I'm thinking it's possible, however, that Bookhout's solo report just might be referring to an interrogation session of Oswald in which Agent Hosty was not present at all. That would explain the need for a second (solo) Bookhout report for 11/22/63.

But if that was the case, then the subject of Oswald claiming he never owned a rifle and the subject of Oswald seeing Roy Truly with a rifle in the Depository on November 20th must have come up during two separate interrogation sessions, because those things are mentioned in both the Bookhout/Hosty joint report and the Bookhout solo report.

Could those very same topics have surfaced in two different sessions with Oswald? I suppose that's possible. But I don't know for sure.


RALPH CINQUE SAID:

"Out with Bill Shelley in front" was Oswald's alibi--for the shooting. He didn't need an alibi for being out front after the shooting. Why did it matter whom he saw when he left for home? No crime was being committed then. He needed an alibi for the shooting, which they would have solicited and which he would have volunteered. Do you see any other alibi in there? If "out with Bill Shelley in front" was not his alibi, then he didn't give one, which means that they didn't ask for one. And that is ridiculous.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

You can't read very well, Ralph. Captain Fritz specifically asked Oswald where he was located AT THE TIME THE PRESIDENT WAS SHOT. And Oswald said he was on the first floor at "about that time". Oswald said nothing to Fritz about being "out with Bill Shelley in front" at the exact time of the assassination. And Fritz' report in that regard perfectly matches what we find in the joint FBI report filed by Hosty and Bookhout.

From the Hosty/Bookhout report:

"Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed this building." [WCR, page 613]

From Captain Fritz' report:

"I asked him what part of the building he was in at the time the President was shot, and he said that he was having his lunch about that time on the first floor." [WCR; page 600]

Why keep pretending that "out with Shelley" was Oswald's alibi, Ralph? Because it's quite clear from the corroborative reports filed by Fritz, Bookhout, and Hosty that you're dead wrong.

David Von Pein
July 2014
October 16-19, 2015
October 21-24, 2015
November 4-9, 2015
November 9, 2015