JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
How stupid is it to believe [Charles] Givens subborned perjury?
This stupid:
LHO wants to come down for lunch, they send the elevator back up and he takes it down. He is seen downstairs at 11:50. But he suddenly goes back upstairs to work for three minutes and then comes back downstairs to eat again. This is the kind of nonsense you have to believe to enter the world of VB [Vincent Bugliosi], Reclaiming History and Von Peinism.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
No, it isn't, Jimbo.
What you have to believe in order to enter the world of VB, RH, DVP, (and reality) is to believe what the sum total of evidence in this case fully bears out --- Lee Oswald never left the upper floors of the Book Depository after approximately 11:45 AM on 11/22/63 (until after he killed JFK at 12:30, that is).
He was not on the second floor casually eating lunch at 12:15 or 12:25. The witnesses, including Eddie Piper, who said they saw Oswald downstairs at a time after approx. 11:45 were quite mistaken. He was up on the sixth floor preparing his Sniper's Nest and unwrapping his Carcano rifle and (possibly) preparing a place to hide his rifle between book cartons near the stairway (the location of his clipboard is, IMO, a clue that leads me to believe he had quite possibly prepared that rifle-stashing nook between boxes in advance, which wouldn't have required much work).
And then at 12:30, Oswald got off three shots and killed President Kennedy.
There was nothing super-spectacular about his shooting feat. Three shots, all at a distance of 88 yards or less, with just one direct hit on the target (JFK's head).
More timeline talk HERE.
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
Davey, can I give you some advice? Please read [Sylvia] Meagher's book. Then you would not get egg on your face so much.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
What for, Jim? Sylvia didn't prove conspiracy. She offered up the same unprovable conjecture and "The Government Is Rotten" back-stabbing guesswork that all other conspiracy theorists have offered up since '63.
She didn't uncover any other bullets that prove that Oswald didn't act alone. She didn't find any hidden gunmen. And she didn't prove that the Warren Commission lied their eyes out when they were coming to their conclusion that Oswald acted alone.
Nobody to date has PROVEN the conspiracy in the JFK case that you, Jim D., so desperately want to believe existed. And that's mainly due to the undeniable FACT that no one has been able to actually prove that some people got together and CONSPIRED WITH EACH OTHER TO MURDER PRESIDENT KENNEDY.
You don't deny the truth in my last sentence above, do you Jim? Or don't you think it's the slightest bit important to have ANY proof of people CONSPIRING in order to prove that a CONSPIRACY existed to kill JFK?
You think the physical evidence proves the conspiracy all by itself. Of course, it does not. And the reason it doesn't come close to proving the plot you're married to is because all of the physical evidence points to Lee Oswald. To deny that fact is to deny that your mother is female.
A little "Patsy" talk:
Do you, Jim (or any CTer), have any idea why the goofball plotters who were supposedly framing Lee Oswald decided to let their patsy wander around on the first floor eating lunch at 12:30, when he was supposed to be UPSTAIRS on the sixth floor shooting at the President?
I guess they just didn't give a damn if their patsy gained for himself an ironclad alibi or not, huh?
It's pretty obvious that those patsy plotters of yours couldn't be any more brain-dead if they tried.
First, they go about the task of trying to "frame" Lee Harvey (or was it just "Harvey"?) for JFK's murder MONTHS in advance, but then on Game Day (11/22) those same patsy-framers decide it would be a great idea to shoot Kennedy from TWO or THREE different locations (thereby making sure that their one-patsy plot will collapse right away).
And then, to top that hunk of patsy-framing brilliance, the morons who orchestrated this grandiose plot to pin it all on Oswald said to themselves:
Oh, well, what the heck, let's not keep an eye on our boy Ozzie at all today. We'll just let him wander loose on the first floor and just hope that nobody notices the guy down there. Sound good to you, Malcolm Wallace and Joe Milteer?
The 11/22 "Patsy Framers" definitely get the award for: Boobs of the Year for 1963.
Of course, Jim, you realize WHY I can go off on a "patsy-framing" tangent like the one above, don't you? It's because your stupid-sounding Multi-Gun, Don't-Keep-An-Eye-On-Oswald patsy plot really is stupid. And it's the kind of crackpot plot that NOBODY would have dreamed up in a million years. Which is one of the main (common-sense) reasons to know that nothing like that happened on November 22 in Dallas.
But try telling that to Oliver Stone. He thinks Oswald WAS set up and framed in just exactly the manner I described above -- i.e., Oswald was being "set up" and "sheep-dipped" far in advance of November 22; the conspirators employed THREE shooters and SIX gunshots to kill Kennedy in Dealey Plaza (even though, of course, they know that their patsy can't be in THREE SHOOTING LOCATIONS AT THE SAME TIME; plus, there's the fact that Stone only has the "mechanics" on the sixth floor with the "Acme" outfits and fake toolboxes planting THREE empty cartridge cases below the "Oswald" window, which adds an additional layer of craziness to their impossible-to-pull-off plot, because they should have planted SIX bullet shells to match the total number of shots fired); and Ollie Stone claims that Oswald (the one and only "patsy") is located on the first floor of the TSBD when the assassination that he was supposed to have committed took place, with Oswald (per Stone) waiting by a phone "for a call that never comes".
I wonder why Oswald needed to wait by a telephone at 12:30? What possible purpose would be served by having LHO do that? And, more importantly, how did the conspirators actually get Oswald to BELIEVE that he was serving a useful purpose by waiting for a phone call while standing INSIDE THE BUILDING OF DEATH?
If Oliver Stone's plot were any more ridiculous and ludicrous, he might have to hire Jim DiEugenio as a technical adviser (in addition to hiring him as narrator for the dry-as-dust "Multimedia Essays" that can be found on Disc #2 of the 2-Disc Special Edition DVD version of Stone's 1991 movie, "JFK")....then Jimbo could have added in the additional element of Buell Frazier and Linnie Randle making up the "paper bag" story from whole cloth.
Stone, of course, in his movie, decided to not even mention the fact that Oswald carried a large bag into the TSBD on November 22. Think that was being totally truthful of Mr. Stone, Jim? (Oops. My fault. You don't think there was any large bag at all. So, you and Ollie are right in sync on that fantasy.)
I wonder if Thomas Vallee would have been "framed" in the same inept way that conspiracy mongers think Oswald was?
Come to think of it -- yes -- some people have suggested that very thing--with Vallee being "patsified" by other people who were going to shoot JFK in Chicago with up to possibly FOUR guns (it was a FOUR-man hit team that Abraham Bolden talked about, wasn't it?), while attempting to dump all the blame of that multi-gun assassination squarely in the lap of Mr. Vallee...right?
Brilliant.
Ma & Pa Kettle and Barney Rubble could have devised better "one-patsy" assassination scenarios than the JFK conspiracy theorists have devised over the last four decades.
I'm done for now, Jim. You can get back to bashing Vincent Bugliosi incessantly now. I know how happy it makes you to wallow in your unprovable conspiracy minutiae.
David Von Pein
September 6, 2010
