RAMON F. HERRERA SAID:
[Quoting from Dr. John Lattimer's book, "Kennedy And Lincoln":]
"I wish to re-emphasize that none of our test objects in these experiments with melons and skulls ever jumped or fell off the stand AWAY from the shooter."
-- John K. Lattimer
RAMON HERRERA LATER SAID:
What I posted [HERE] is ALL the shootings to heads of people that I could find [on] YouTube. In every single one of them, the subjects behave as predicted by elementary physics (conservation of momentum).
If anybody can find ONE video that violates that elementary rule, please post it here.
We will be patiently waiting.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
[Also quoting Dr. Lattimer:]
"Our experiments verified that the backward movement of the President's head was compatible with his being struck from the rear, and that it was certainly not necessary to hit the head from the front in order to make the head move toward the gun." -- John K. Lattimer; Page 255 of "Kennedy And Lincoln"
RAMON HERRERA SAID:
So God has a special rule for Kennedy (perhaps for Catholics?) and the opposite for criminals and Muslims?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Exactly. :)
Let's see you debunk the photos and X-rays, which prove that nobody in Dealey Plaza hit John F. Kennedy in the front of the head with a bullet. Good luck, Ramon.
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
Very nice job Ramon.
And the Alvarez farce should be exposed as often as possible.
It was a dishonest charade.
And Paul Hoch helped cover it up for decades.
PAT SPEER SAID ALL THIS.
GLENN NALL SAID:
This Jet Effect is a sham. Go shoot something, even something attached to something else, with a high velocity bullet. Then let's talk about this jet effect.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
OK, let's do that....
JFK-Archives.blogspot.com/2012/01/debunking-jfk-conspiracy-myths
Another "fake" video, Glenn? ....
PAT SPEER SAID:
Really? You fell for that?
From chapter 16 at patspeer.com --- CLICK HERE.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
The Penn & Teller melon literally jumps backward off of the table. Yes, the table is a small table, but the melon definitely moved toward the gunman. And if a "jet effect" didn't cause that movement, what did?
The melon jumps off the table after being shot, moves BACKWARDS (toward the shooter), then (of course) falls off the table. But regardless of how small the table was, that hunk of fruit did move toward the gunman after it was struck with a Carcano rifle bullet. I see nothing phony or fraudulent about that melon test.
Plus, Dr. Lattimer filmed his skull tests too. And the skulls were propelled TOWARD the gunman as well. (And, no, the ladder did not cause the skulls to move backward, as many CTers like to use as a convenient excuse. That ladder doesn't even start to tip backward until well after the skulls have started their journey to the rear.)
PAT SPEER SAID:
You missed the point. The ladders tipped forwards. The forward momentum of the bullet slammed into the skulls, which then slammed into the ladders tipping them forward. The skulls then recoiled off the ladders and flew back toward the shooter. If the skulls were attached to the ladders, they would have fallen forward not back.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Absolute nonsense, Pat. Lattimer's test skulls were long gone off the ladder before there was any "recoil" (i.e., backward movement) of the ladder.
PAT SPEER SAID:
Let's try this again. The bullet never touches the ladders, and yet they tip forward. This proves that the forward momentum of the skull is being transferred into the ladders.
Think of it like shooting pool. The cue ball is the bullet. The cue ball strikes the 13 ball at an angle when it's an inch or so away from the 8 ball. The 13 ball then strikes the 8 ball. Upon striking the 8 ball, the 13 ball rolls backwards, but the 8 ball rolls forwards. Lattimer claimed that the backwards motion of the 13 ball replicated the movement of Kennedy, and proved the Jet Effect, but totally ignored that it had transferred its momentum into the 8 ball. It was a trick.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Like Glenn Nall [see this post], I'm a fairly decent pool player myself, and as far as I am aware, the only way to get a pool ball to move backwards (toward the pool player) is to utilize reverse english while striking the cue ball (which is something I became pretty good at doing in my younger days). The cue ball will then travel backwards (or a little left or right, depending on where the player strikes the cue ball).
But the OBJECT ball(s)--i.e., the balls the cue ball is hitting--will not travel backwards. Those balls always travel forward--away from the shooter/billiards player.
But, maybe Pat Speer thinks that John Lattimer had a special kind of Mannlicher-Carcano rifle---one that fired bullets with reverse english attached to them.
However, even if that scenario were possible, it's still not a good "pool" analogy. Because, as mentioned, from my experience as a pool player, it's only the CUE BALL--or in Pat's analogy, THE BULLET ITSELF--that would be subject to any REVERSAL of direction--not the "13 ball" or any of the "object" balls (or in Dr. Lattimer's experiments--the skulls).
What I'd really like to know is if Dr. Alfred Olivier's test skulls that he shot for his assassination tests at Edgewood Arsenal moved TOWARD the shooter after the skulls were shot with rifle bullets. I don't think that information ever came out in Olivier's Warren Commission testimony, mainly because the Commission wasn't concerned a single bit about the rear head snap exhibited by President Kennedy after he was shot. It was a complete non-issue to the Warren Commission (since they had conclusive proof via the autopsy report and the autopsy doctors that JFK had been hit in the head by just a single bullet, which entered from BEHIND). But it would still be nice to know which direction Dr. Olivier's test skulls traveled--forward or backward.
Prediction: Pat Speer will now change his "pool" analogy to this....
The bullet (in Dr. Lattimer's tests) becomes the cue stick.
The skull on the ladder becomes the cue ball.
And the ladder becomes the object ball which is being struck by the cue ball (skull).
But that's still a bit of a stretch for the conspiracy theorists, unless they can invent a way for the cue stick (the bullet) to impart reverse english onto the cue ball (the skull).
Let's chalk up and play a game or two.
PAT SPEER SAID:
[Larry] Sturdivan mentioned this in his HSCA testimony, as I recall. All the skulls went forward in the direction of the bullet.
RAMON F. HERRERA SAID:
Pat:
That makes a heck of a lot of sense. I am not talking about the 2 directions being the same, which is simply a FACT under any scenario (*). I am referring to...
1.) The blatant lies by Lattimer et al.
2.) The sincerity by Sturdivan.
Simply put, in 1964 we believed in Santa Claus, not quite in the late 1970s.
(*) Custom rigged cantaloupes and fancy billiard shots excluded. Last time I checked, the head of our president qualified for neither category.
RAMON F. HERRERA ALSO SAID:
Direction of the Fatal Shot and the Jet Effect
by Stewart Galanor:
http://JFKLancer.com/galanor/jet_effect
[Quoting from above article:]
"The Warren Commission had a scientist Larry Sturdivan at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds shoot ten skulls with the Mannlicher-Carcano. All ten skulls moved away from the rifle and moved in the direction of the bullet. The results of this test were suppressed and were not revealed until fifteen years later during the HSCA investigation. (1HSCA404)" -- Stewart Galanor
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Thank you, Pat and Ramon, for the information about Larry Sturdivan's HSCA testimony.
Allow me to add the following quotes from Sturdivan's book, "The JFK Myths":
"The calculations show that no bullet of reasonable size can possibly throw a person in any direction. So, if the laws of physics prove that a bullet could not have "thrown" him [JFK], why did he move backward into the car seat just after the shot that killed him?
[...]
The question is: Did the gunshot produce enough force in expelling the material from Kennedy's head to throw his body backward into the limousine? Based on the high-speed movies of the skull shot simulations at the Biophysics Laboratory, the answer is no.
[...]
Dr. John Lattimer conducted some skull shots that resembled the Biophysics Division's simulations, but for which the skulls were filled with animal brain tissue. In his shots, all skulls fell back from the table [actually a ladder] in the direction of the shooter. Evidently, the lack of a jet effect from the stiff gelatin in the Biophysics Lab's simulation was a bit misleading and there was enough of a jet effect to move Kennedy's head back after its forward surge."
-- Larry M. Sturdivan; Pages 162 and 164 of "The JFK Myths: A Scientific Investigation Of The Kennedy Assassination" (©2005)
DAVID VON PEIN ALSO SAID:
BTW, the Edgewood Arsenal "Wound Ballistics Of 6.5-mm. Mannlicher-Carcano Ammunition" report is very interesting reading too. More conspiracy theorists should look at it. Here it is:
http://MaryFerrell.org/documentID=62296
Every single test performed between April 1964 and October 1964 by Dr. Olivier and Dr. Dziemian at Edgewood Arsenal is consistent with the Warren Commission's ultimate conclusions. For example:
Per the Edgewood Arsenal ballistics tests with Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle, that exact rifle was capable of causing all of the wounds that were inflicted on President Kennedy and Governor Connally in Dallas on November 22, 1963.
Quoting from the Edgewood report:
"Experiments were performed with the 6.5-mm Mannlicher-Carcano assassination rifle, serial no. C2766, and 6.5-mm Western Cartridge Company, lot WCC 6000, Mannlicher-Carcano ball ammunition to reproduce the conditions occurring at the time of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy on 22 November 1963. The results indicated that the wounds sustained by the President and by Governor Connally, including the massive head wound of the President, could be produced by the above type of bullet and rifle."
----------------------
And Dr. Lattimer's experiments produced results very similar to those of Olivier's 1964 tests.
Quoting Lattimer:
"Combinations of human skull tops and melons were tested, and, again, all fell backward off the stand toward the shooter. No melon or skull combination ever fell AWAY from the shooter. Human skulls were then packed with solid melon contents and taped and sewed tightly together with strong tape and thread to simulate the scalp. We fired into these at the same point and at the same angle as the President was struck. The skull wounds produced were strikingly similar to Kennedy's [see illustration from Lattimer's book below]. Again, the skulls fell or jumped off the stand toward the shooter, and large fragments of the top of the skulls flew upward and forward for distances of forty feet or more, just as fragments of Kennedy's skull can be seen to have done in frames 313 through 318 of the Zapruder movie."
-- John K. Lattimer; Page 251 of "Kennedy And Lincoln: Medical And Ballistic Comparisons Of Their Assassinations" (©1980)
David Von Pein
October 18-21, 2015
