DVP vs. DiEUGENIO
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
>>> "As [Rodger] Remington noted in Biting the Elephant, much of RH ["Reclaiming History"] is difficult to decipher as to both footnotes and emphasis. For instance, this long paragraph [on Page 957 of "RH"] has three footnotes and the most important sentence, which I quoted above, is not referenced." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Wrong. That sentence you mentioned on Page 957 of "Reclaiming History" is most certainly sourced (which is what I assume you mean when you say "referenced"). Source Note #36 on Page 957 is the note that VB uses to source everything between Source Note #35 and Source Note #36 (quite obviously). He doesn't need to put a citation in for every single sentence, since this citation below covers everything between Source Notes 35 and 36:
"36. WR, p.636; 7 H 302, WCT Harry D. Holmes."
>>> "Further, it is difficult to decipher who is supplying the italics in many cases [in Vince Bugliosi's book, "Reclaiming History"]." <<<
No, it isn't, Jim. Vince Bugliosi's use of italics is fully explained by Vince very early in the Introduction chapter of "RH" when Bugliosi says this on Page xvi:
"Note: Throughout this book emphasis by italics in quotations has been added by the author unless otherwise indicated." -- Page xvi of "Reclaiming History"
And in the italicized passage on Page 957 of "RH" that you were talking about earlier, I don't see how there could be any confusion whatsoever about WHO it is who is "supplying the italics", because that particular passage of "RH" is not even a quotation of any sort. It's merely Bugliosi paraphrasing Harry Holmes' 11/24/63 interview of Lee Oswald.
Therefore, since Bugliosi isn't directly quoting anyone there, it's obvious as to WHO is supplying the italics (i.e., emphasis) -- it's got to be the author of the book, Vincent Bugliosi.
>>> "It becomes clear that the FBI informant [DiEugenio is referring to Postal Inspector Harry D. Holmes here] is embroidering his story to jibe with the evolving tale of the infamous Charles Givens. For the whole thing about "You go on down and send the elevator back up..." is there in Holmes' summary. This whole Givens flip-flopping charade was exposed by Sylvia Meagher back in 1971 in the Texas Observer. (8/13/71) On the day of the assassination, the TSBD worker said he had seen Oswald around 11:50 in the so-called domino room on the first floor. Ten days later, on December 2nd, he changed his story for the Secret Service. He now said he saw Oswald upstairs with a clipboard on the sixth floor at around 11:45. As Givens left, Oswald told him to send an elevator back up for him. After that, he never saw Oswald again. Both stories cannot be true. But clearly, Holmes heard about the second story through his FBI grapevine. And he is now trying to create posthumous corroboration by Oswald, which again, no one else heard. Yet Bugliosi uses this obvious concoction as evidence against Oswald." <<<
Charles Givens' account of seeing Oswald on an upper floor of the Book Depository and Oswald saying that he wanted an elevator to be sent back up to him is not an "obvious concoction" at all.
If you believe it was a "concoction", Jim, then you're going to have to call several other TSBD workers liars, too. Because Givens' story (for the most part) is corroborated by other TSBD employees -- e.g., Bonnie Ray Williams, Billy Lovelady, and Danny Arce.
Each one of those TSBD employees testified that they had "raced" the two freight elevators down from the sixth floor on 11/22/63, and each one of those employees also testified that they heard Lee Harvey Oswald yelling down the elevator shaft for an elevator to be sent back up to him.
Williams -- 3 H 168
Lovelady -- 6 H 337
Arce -- 6 H 364-365
There is a little bit of confusion amongst the Warren Commission testimony of the above-named witnesses as to exactly which floor Lee Oswald was on when he hollered to his fellow workers about wanting an elevator sent back up to him.
Williams said he couldn't tell which floor Oswald was on. Here are Bonnie Ray's exact words to the Warren Commission:
BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS -- "On the way down I heard Oswald--and I am not sure whether he was on the fifth or the sixth floor. But on the way down Oswald hollered "Guys, how about an elevator?" I don't know whether those are his exact words. But he said something about the elevator. And Charles said, "Come on, boy," just like that. And he said, "Close the gate on the elevator and send the elevator back up." I don't know what happened after that."
GERALD FORD -- "Had the elevator gone down below the floor from which he yelled?"
BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS -- "Yes, I believe it was. I assume it was the fifth or the sixth. The reason I could not tell whether it was the sixth or the fifth is because I was on the opposite elevator, and if you are not thinking about it it is kind of hard to judge which floor, if you started moving."
ALLEN DULLES -- "Did he ask the gate be closed on the elevator?"
BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS -- "I think he asked Charles Givens--I think he said, "Close the gate on the elevator, or send one of the elevators back up." I think that is what he said."
And Depository employee Danny Arce said the same thing as Williams, with Arce saying he wasn't sure whether Oswald had yelled down from the fifth or the sixth floor [see 6 H 365].
There is also the following statement made by Danny Arce on the day of the assassination itself, which (again) corroborates the testimony of the other TSBD employees with respect to Oswald being seen on an upper floor of the Depository (and not the FIRST floor) shortly before 12:00 noon on November 22nd:
"There was another employee that I saw named Lee Oswald. He was on the first floor of the building when I saw him at 8:00 am. He is the same man I saw the police bring into the Homicide Bureau about 2:00 pm. I also saw him on the 5th floor as we were leaving for lunch at 11:50 am." -- Danny G. Arce; 11/22/63 Affidavit
It's true that no other employee can corroborate Charles Givens' account of speaking to Oswald AFTER Givens went back up to the sixth floor to retrieve his cigarettes following the elevator race down to the first floor.
But to claim that Postal Inspector Harry Holmes was a part of an "obvious concoction" concerning Charles Givens' November 22nd observations is just more speculation and wishful thinking on the part of conspiracy theorists who have made it their full-time job (it seems) to try and absolve Lee Harvey Oswald of all guilt in the assassination of John F. Kennedy.
The following is an excerpt from an Internet article I wrote in March 2007 (and revised slightly in July 2010):
"By all accounts, it appears that Lee Oswald's request for an elevator to be sent back up to him on the 6th Floor of the TSBD around 12:00 Noon on November 22nd was not granted.
"Several TSBD employees raced the Book Depository's two freight elevators from the 6th Floor to the 1st Floor at noontime on 11/22/63, with Lee Oswald being the lone employee up on the sixth floor to not join this group of four.
"The employees were: Billy Lovelady, Charles Givens, Bonnie Ray Williams, and Danny Arce. Three of those four employees--Lovelady, Williams, and Arce--acknowledged the fact that Oswald yelled down to the boys for an elevator to be sent back up, but none of the employees actually verified that an elevator WAS sent back up to Oswald.
"Williams, in his Warren Commission testimony, said "I don't know what happened after that", indicating that he didn't know if an elevator was sent back up or not.
"What is interesting about Givens' testimony...(in a "confusing" fashion) is that Givens says all of the above occurred only AFTER Givens went back up to the sixth floor to retrieve his jacket and cigarettes (which he had forgotten on his first trip downstairs on the elevators with the other employees).
"So, either Oswald TWICE asked Givens (or the other employees) to send an elevator back up to him (which is certainly quite possible) -- or Givens is mistaken about exactly when Oswald made his elevator request.
"But, either way, it would seem that Oswald never did get that elevator sent back up to him....an elevator that Oswald probably wanted to freeze on his sixth floor so that he'd have a quick escape route off of the Death Floor just after shooting at the President.
"But, instead, Lee was forced to take the stairs, because he obviously wasn't going to just wait around for an elevator to arrive on his floor just after he had fired a series of bullets at the President of the United States from that very same sixth floor.
"But I always had the impression that an elevator WAS sent back up to Oswald. (However, perhaps this is merely an "impression", similar to many of the "conspiracy myths" that have been foisted upon the public since 1963.)"
-- DVP; "Lee Oswald, His Co-Workers, And The TSBD Elevators"
David Von Pein
LINK TO ORIGINAL POST (SEPTEMBER 3, 2010)
Posted By: David Von Pein
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