JFK ASSASSINATION ARGUMENTS
(PART 1028)


GARRY PUFFER SAID:

If you [Patrick Collins] could list any lies, you could have listed them in the time you spent telling us you don't have time.


PATRICK COLLINS SAID:

Complete tripe, it took me one minute to write that post--if that.

How long would it take to find, check and post just ONE refutation to Lane let alone a couple of dozen examples? A lot longer....I can assure you.


GARRY PUFFER SAID:

Ah, "tripe" again. How clever.

No, Troll Patrick, you should be able to give us some of Mark Lane's lies off the top of your head in just a couple of minutes, the same way we can do with Bugliosi. Once you have familiarized yourself with the lies, they are there and don't need to be looked up or double-checked. You are a weasel, and you will NEVER list any Mark Lane lies because you can't, not because you don't have time. You don't know any such lies.

You need to stop writing garbage about Mark Lane unless you back it up with some specifics, and you also need to be a little more concerned with the lies told by your buddies Mel Ayton, DVP, Mike Majerus, and Vinny the Bug, to name a few. You seem very unconcerned about the lies that they peddle.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I challenge you to name just one "lie" I have told.

You won't be able to do it.

But good luck hunting for one, you silly little man.


BEN HOLMES SAID:

Will you publicly state in advance that you'll DEFEND any lies of yours I post?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

There are none to post. So you've lost before you've ever started.


DAVID VON PEIN ALSO SAID:

BTW, I've listed several of Mark Lane's half-truths and distortions of the facts at my "Rush To Judgment" blog. This pertains to Lane's movie of "RTJ", not the book specifically:



More of Lane's disingenuousness can be found HERE.


GARRY PUFFER SAID THIS.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Total bull from Puffer (and Martin Hay).

FACT -- Vincent Scalice DID say that it was his professional opinion that Lee Harvey Oswald's fingerprints were definitely on the rifle's trigger housing. "There is no doubt about it," said Scalice in 1993 [see video below].

video

So go call Scalice the liar, Puffer....not Ayton and Von Pein.

Do Puffer and Hay really think that lone-assassin believers (such as myself) are just going to totally IGNORE the new revelation about the prints Scalice provided in '93? Particularly when we already had J.C. Day's testimony from '64 saying that he thought the trigger guard prints were probably Oswald's [see 4 H 278]? Get real.

And it's just as I thought, Puffer is scouring everything he can to try and catch DVP (that'd be me) in a lie. But the examples he's given us thus far [here, here, and here] are pathetic with a positive P.

And, yes, Puffer-(poo), a "ghostwriter" is just that---a GHOST. He's not CREDITED in the book he is "ghostwriting" (as I point out on my site).

Are these "DVP lies" going to surface soon, Puffer? So far, you're Zero-for-the-Whole-Day.


GARRY PUFFER SAID:

Hilarious. Lifton's point was that Bugliosi did not do all the writing. Davey-poo gets his shorts all bunched up because Lifton used the term "ghostwriter" instead of, well, what, Davey-poo? What should it be called when the person who writes part of a book gets no specific credit for it?

And why the need for a settlement with a gag restriction?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Are you all there?! Dale Myers and Fred Haines DID get "specific credit" for their writing in "Reclaiming History". Go to page 1515 of RH and see the credit.

Geez.

And Lifton's dumb point was also that Pat Lambert wrote the ENTIRE Garrison/Stone chapter of Vince's book....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/ghostwriting.html

IOW---Lifton is dead wrong.

And the "gag restriction" junk is very very likely another bogus hunk of nonsense invented by a CTer.


GARRY PUFFER SAID:

How about actually responding to Martin Hay's criticism, Davey-poo?

Hay [said]:

"Simply put, whatever enhancements Scalice carried out on the photographs he used could not bring out detail that did not exist in the actual latent prints. Even as a minority opinion, Scalice's claim is just not worthy of serious consideration. And this is especially so given that neither he nor anyone else has ever made a chart of his alleged 18+ points of identity available for verification by an independent expert. By promoting Scalice's assertion, Ayton and Von Pein demonstrate an extreme confirmation bias and a willingness to repeat anything that supports their theory, no matter how questionable it may be."


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Scalice used a different method to identify the prints in VARIOUS photographs. [The FBI's Sebastian] Latona didn't employ such methods.

Try again.

BTW---

Speaking of lies --- Garry Puffer certainly told a nice one several days back when he assured me that he would no longer be reading any more posts written by Troll Von Pein.

That promise certainly didn't last long, did it Puffer?


GARRY PUFFER SAID:

It's a slow day. I needed some laughs.

We all love the way you simply claim victory for yourself. Granted, you don't lie quite as easily as Troll Patrick [Collins] or Fellatious Henry [Sienzant], but you are definitely dishonest in your presentation of evidence, as was Bugliosi.

I am happy for you that you found this job, but you seriously need a break.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

So, Garry Puffer actually thinks Vincent Scalice just INVENTED the Oswald fingerprints on the trigger guard.


GARRY PUFFER SAID:

Of course he did. And if you were honest you would admit it.

David, there is NO WAY to get information from a photograph that was not there when examined previously. And why do you keep avoiding an explanation as to why Scalice has not shared all his work so that it might be replicated by others? You can't use science if it's not replicable.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

You need the break, Garry. Not me. Take a nap. You've got CT Overload Syndrome. And who would want to be saddled with that?


GARRY PUFFER SAID:

What about the legal settlement? What was that all about? Was Vinny [Bugliosi] embarrassed about using Myers?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Prove the junk about the "legal settlement", Garry? Are you just taking Lifton's word for that too?

Not a good idea. Because you know what a fool Mr. Lifton made out of himself when it comes to Patricia Lambert being a "ghostwriter"....don't you? So why on Earth would you believe anything uttered by David Lifton (of all people on the planet!) concerning this subject?

Hilarious indeed.


DAVID VON PEIN ALSO SAID:

Garry,

If you were honest, you'd admit the trigger guard prints were Oswald's.

It's OSWALD'S rifle.

The palm print on that rifle is OSWALD'S.

OSWALD was IDed as the assassin with a rifle on the sixth floor. (Yes, it was a belated identification, but it's there in Howard Brennan's testimony just the same---and it's an identification that FITS the owner of the sixth-floor rifle.)

OSWALD'S prints are in multiple places in the Sniper's Nest--where the assassin was located.

Shells from OSWALD'S gun are on the floor in the Nest--where the assassin was located.

An empty paper bag with OSWALD'S prints on it was in the Nest--where the assassin was located. (And that bag was seen by at least FOUR police officers before it was picked up off the floor. So spare me the "It Wasn't Photographed" argument.)

OSWALD lied to Buell Frazier about the contents of the package that OSWALD carried into the building on November 22. (Why did he need to lie about the "curtain rods", Garry?)

An honest person, after reviewing all of that stuff, probably should be honest enough to admit that OSWALD'S fingerprints were the prints identified by Vincent Scalice as OSWALD'S on the trigger guard of the C2766 Carcano rifle.


BEN HOLMES SAID:

[Quoting from "Beyond Reasonable Doubt"....]

"Boone commented that it looked like a 7.65 Mauser because 'Mauser' was a generic term used at that time for a bolt-action rifle." -- Pg. 62 [of "Beyond Reasonable Doubt"]

Unfortunately for Davey, we have his testimony, AND THAT IS NOT WHAT WAS SAID.

Another lie for Davey to run from.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Why would I run from it, Ben? It's not a lie. It's the absolute truth. That is precisely what Eugene Boone said at the 1986 mock trial of Oswald. Have a look....

video

NOTE --- The source note on the "BRD" book page that Ben Holmes cited leads to "Warren Report, pages 118-124". This additional source could have also been added there as well --- "On Trial: Lee Harvey Oswald" (1986 Docu-Trial; London Weekend Television); Testimony of Eugene Boone.

But the quote as cited by Holmes is 100% accurate, because Boone definitely said those things at the '86 mock trial.

Try again, Benji.

Also....

How is this Warren Commission testimony by Eugene Boone in any way inconsistent with what Boone told Vince Bugliosi in 1986?....

JOSEPH BALL -- There is one question. Did you hear anybody refer to this rifle as a Mauser that day?

EUGENE BOONE -- Yes, I did. And at first, not knowing what it was, I thought it was 7.65 Mauser.

MR. BALL -- Who referred to it as a Mauser that day?

MR. BOONE -- I believe Captain Fritz. He had knelt down there to look at it, and before he removed it, not knowing what it was, he said that is what it looks like. This is when Lieutenant Day, I believe his name is, the ID man was getting ready to photograph it. We were just discussing it beck and forth. And he said it looks like a 7.65 Mauser.


GARRY PUFFER SAID:

Davey-poo is quoting from the mock trial? God help us.

The mock trial.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

So everything spoken by the witnesses at the mock trial is a lie, too...is that it, Puffer?


GARRY PUFFER SAID:

Sorry, David, if it's from a MOCK trial, it's not evidence. It might be true, it might not be true, but to cite it as evidence, well, even you should know better.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

You're reaching, Garry. And you're looking mighty silly while doing it.

Quoting a witness at a mock trial is no different than using a quote from a newspaper interview or some other personal interview or statement made over the years by a witness. And how many times has that been done (by CTers and LNers alike)? Thousands? Millions?

Now don't tell me, Garry, that you think NO conspiracy theorist in history has ever tried to bolster his "case for conspiracy" by quoting a witness statement given during a private interview or telephone call or e-mail, etc.

You aren't going to claim that, are you?

I'm guessing that I could probably find many online posts by CTers where they are even using that same 1986 mock trial to bolster their own "CT" case. Like quoting Cyril Wecht from that trial. Or Edwin Lopez. Or Seth Kantor.


DAVID VON PEIN ALSO SAID:

Garry Puffer = A Lost CT Cause.

This statement proves that Puffer is lost in a wilderness of mile-high conspiracy fiction....

"He [LHO] didn't lie. He never told anyone anything about curtain rods. That's a story made up after the fact." -- Garry Puffer; September 14, 2015

Puffer thinks Buell Frazier was the liar....but Lee Harvey Oswald wasn't.

Incredible.


GARRY PUFFER SAID:

Prove to me that Oswald said it. If you can prove it, I will gladly admit I was mistaken.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

So, Garry, you think Buell Wesley Frazier had a tape recorder in his car on the morning of 11/22/63? Or a hidden camera in the glove compartment? Or a tape recorder inside the Book Depository on 11/21/63 when Oswald first utilized the "curtain rods" lie when talking to Frazier?

I just like knowing that people like Garry Puffer are so willing to believe a known liar like Lee Harvey Oswald, while at the same time, they are so ready (and eager) to disbelieve (and paint as a liar) a person who had no reason to lie---Buell Wesley Frazier.

Garry should have gotten the starring role in "LOST" instead of Matthew Fox. The part fits Garry to a tee.


GARRY PUFFER SAID:

Sorry, David, but you have absolutely no right to assert that Frazier had no reason to lie. You cannot possibly know that. It's one of the weakest possible arguments, by the way.

So in other words, you cannot prove that Oswald said anything about curtain rods. That's what I thought.

And labeling Oswald a liar is a logical fallacy.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Who had more of a reason to lie -- Oswald or Frazier?


BEN HOLMES SAID:

Davey has claimed that there are no lies in his book... and REFUSES to state that he'll defend against any critique.

"Oswald had been working there as a clerk for five weeks and was the only member of staff found to be missing." pg 59 [of "Beyond Reasonable Doubt"].

YOU'RE A LIAR, DAVEY... YOU KNOW VERY WELL THAT THIS IS *NOT TRUE*.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Who else was "missing" then, Benji? (Charles Givens doesn't count. He never went "missing". He returned to the TSBD and couldn't get back in. So he's not a "missing" employee.)

So, who are the other unaccounted for TSBD employees, Ben?


GARRY PUFFER SAID:

Givens couldn't get in. Therefore [Roy] Truly would not have seen him. Therefore he would be missing as far as Truly would know. So why doesn't he count, Davey-poo?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Oh, for Pete sake. Get real, Garry. Everybody knows Givens' story. He was with another guy watching the motorcade when the assassination happened. Is HE a suspect now too?

So, no, I don't consider Charles Givens to be a "missing" employee at all, because we know where he was both before and just after the shooting.

And the same goes for the 73 TSBD employees that gave statements in Commission Document No. 706 (linked below; and the same document can also be found in CE1381). So, you see, the FBI was crossing every T when it came to tracing the whereabouts of the Book Depository employees. Or are these 73 people lying too?....



In short (as we all know, but no CTer will ever admit it) --- Lee Harvey Oswald was the only truly "missing" TSBD employee just after the assassination took place on November 22, 1963. (And, yes, I factor in what we NOW have learned about the whereabouts of the other TSBD employees, including Charles Givens, when I say that Oswald was the "only truly missing employee".)


GARRY PUFFER SAID:

Davey-poo is deliberately confusing what we know now with what they knew then. How creepy.

Oswald "was the only member of staff found to be missing" can only refer to what they knew that afternoon, not what we know now.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Why? Who made up that ridiculous rule?


BEN HOLMES SAID:

There's no possible way for Oswald to have been singled out because he wasn't there.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

And yet that is EXACTLY what happened -- i.e., Lee Oswald WAS "singled out because he wasn't there".

Ben Holmes seems to think there was "no possible way" for this to have happened. And yet we KNOW it did happen, because Depository Superintendent Roy S. Truly tells us so in his Warren Commission testimony [at 3 H 229-230]. Let's have a look....

ROY TRULY -- I noticed some of my boys were over in the west corner of the shipping department, and there were several officers over there taking their names and addresses, and so forth. There were other officers in other parts of the building taking other employees, like office people's names. I noticed that Lee Oswald was not among these boys. So I picked up the telephone and called Mr. Aiken down at the other warehouse who keeps our application blanks. Back up there. First I mentioned to Mr. Campbell--I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him, he looked around and said no.

DAVID BELIN -- When you asked Bill Shelley if he had seen whom?

MR. TRULY -- Lee Oswald. I said, "Have you seen him around lately," and he said no. So Mr. Campbell is standing there, and I said, "I have a boy over here missing. I don't know whether to report it or not." Because I had another one or two out then. I didn't know whether they were all there or not. He said, "What do you think"? And I got to thinking. He said, "Well, we better do it anyway." It was so quick after that. So I picked the phone up then and called Mr. Aiken, at the warehouse, and got the boy's name and general description and telephone number and address at Irving.

[...]

MR. BELIN -- Did you ask for the name and addresses of any other employees who might have been missing?

MR. TRULY -- No, sir.

MR. BELIN. Why didn't you ask for any other employees?

MR. TRULY -- That is the only one that I could be certain right then was missing.

==================

So, as we can see from Roy Truly's testimony, despite the fact that perhaps one or two other employees were "out" (i.e., unaccounted for), Mr. Truly DID "single out" Lee Harvey Oswald as the only "missing" employee shortly after the assassination.


DAVID VON PEIN ALSO SAID:

Ben,

Sometimes when I write things about the JFK case, I'm taking into account things that have been learned SINCE NOVEMBER 1963.

And when I talk to people about the "missing employees" subject, I normally phrase it this way (which was not done exactly this way in the book "Beyond Reasonable Doubt") ---

Lee Oswald was the only TSBD employee known to have been INSIDE the building when the shooting took place who was missing shortly after the assassination.

The above sentence is the way I prefer to state the situation. But Mel Ayton wrote the passage pounced on by Ben Holmes HERE. I did not write those exact words, but I did serve as co-editor and proofreader for the book, so I fully share in any blame for any errors that appear in the book. If I were to do it over again, I probably would have asked Mel to phrase it the way I mentioned above, adding the "known to have been inside the building" part of the statement as well.

David Von Pein
September 14-15, 2015