DUNCAN MacRAE SAID:
"Prayer Man" Is A Woman....
PM is a woman wearing a long buttoned coat.
[...]
I officially rename Prayer Man as Button Lady....
DUNCAN MacRAE LATER SAID:
While it is entirely possible that I am wrong in agreeing with Patrick Jackson about Scarf Lady being the mystery person, I am 100% confident that the mystery Button Lady figure formerly known as Prayer Man is in fact a woman, and she is probably holding a purse in front of her in a classic female pose....
MARK ULRIK SAID [IN 2024]:
Somewhat stabilized version:
DAVID VON PEIN SAID [IN 2024]:
In this September 2024 discussion, Duncan MacRae posted an image taken after the assassination that Duncan thinks contains the image of "Prayer Woman" (on the right):
ROBERT PRUDHOMME SAID:
Duncan can see all kinds of things in that photo that no one else can see.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Gee, that sure sounds familiar. Where have I heard stuff like that before?
The pot/kettle irony that emanates from CTers nearly every day is unparalleled.
Badge Man.
Prayer Man.
Black Dog Man.
Tan Jacket Man.
Etc., etc...
And just two days ago, conspiracy theorist and nine-year Education Forum veteran Kathleen Collins took the time to send me a private e-mail in order to provide me with this bombshell proof of a gunman she sees in the Nix Film. The assassin in the film apparently decided to fire a rifle at the President while standing right out in the open where everybody could easily see (and film) him. Those Presidential assassins sure were brilliant planners, weren't they?....
=======================================
Subject: Nix film
Date: 9/16/2015 11:58:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time
From: Kathleen (Kathy) Collins
To: David Von Pein
--------------------------
Dear David,
Here is a link to the Nix film that shows a man, leaning on a car, shooting. Whoever put the clip up is pointing to 2 other men. But clearly, the man at the car is shooting....
http://youtube.com/watch?v=gvz6sxhb3PA
Kathy Collins
=======================================
ROBERT PRUDHOMME SAID:
So, you agree that Dunc's "analysis" of PM is bogus?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
It's impossible for me to tell. It's an analysis of pure mush and trying to make it solid. Can't be done with the awful, worthless image we have to deal with there. (IMHO.)
One thing is a certainty, however --- "Prayer (Wo)Man" is definitely NOT Lee Harvey Oswald. Even Oswald himself confirmed that fact....
REPORTER -- "Did you shoot the President?"
LEE HARVEY OSWALD -- "I work in that building."
REPORTER -- "Were you in the building at the time?"
LEE HARVEY OSWALD -- "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes, sir."
ROBERT PRUDHOMME SAID:
I will accept that as a total putdown of MacRae's "research analysis" or whatever he calls it.
Believe it or not, I, too, would like to see a better refining of this still of ["Prayer Man"] before I am completely convinced of anything about it.
P.S.,
Still pretty shaky interpretation of him being in that building. If I was to step out on the steps, but never left the alcove at the top of the steps, I might, if quickly answering a reporter's question, still have considered myself "in" that building.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Bob,
I've discussed that "Inside or Outside?" subject with other people in the past, such as this discussion with J. Raymond Carroll in July of 2014....
RAYMOND CARROLL SAID:
Slight problem there, David: No motive, no means, and he was watching from the front steps. But you are correct that he acted alone!
DVP SAID:
J. Raymond Carroll is one of the very few conspiracy theorists on the planet who thinks Lee Oswald was totally innocent of everything regarding JFK's death---that is: Lee didn't even have any knowledge at all of the plot to kill the President. Lee was as innocent as Mother Teresa, per J. Raymond. That's how far afield from reality Mr. Carroll has strayed.
And I see that Raymond has been gullible enough to fall for the worn-out "Oswald Was Doorway Man" schtick too. Oh, my. Ray is in trouble.
I wonder if Ray can explain to us why Oswald HIMSELF lied about his location at the time of the assassination? Or does Raymond think that being on the front steps of the Book Depository is the same thing as being "inside" the building?
RAYMOND CARROLL SAID:
Lee Oswald was "out with Bill Shelley in front," just as he told Fritz. The front steps are actually "in the building," as you can see for yourself if you go there.
The proof is in the Darnell film, discovered by Sean Murphy, and you can see it for yourself in this thread on the Education Forum.
DVP SAID:
Nobody who was standing on the TSBD steps would ever say they were "in the building". That's nuts. The steps are OUTSIDE the front door, for Pete sake [see photo below]. And it goes to show how desperate CTers like Raymond Carroll truly are to exonerate a double-murderer.
RAYMOND CARROLL SAID:
He never said he was "inside," he said he was "in the building." Since the steps he was standing on are within the building's structure, he was quite correct in stating he was "out with Bill Shelley in front" yet still "in the building."
Actually, we cannot hear the question in the video, and the question may have been "were you in the building TODAY?"
Anyway, we don't have to parse what he said. The Darnell film PROVES he was on the front steps.
DVP SAID:
The Darnell Film proves no such thing. Your "Prayer Man" could be almost anybody. But you now like the idea that "PM" was Oswald---so, it's Oswald.
And we most certainly CAN hear the reporter's question to Oswald. The reporter clearly says: "Were you in the building at the time?"
Oswald's answer: "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir."
And what do you think Oswald thought the reporter meant by "AT THE TIME"? Considering the previous question had been: "Did you shoot the President?", I don't think there's much doubt.
[...]
Again, only a person hell-bent on finding Oswald innocent for some odd reason could possibly think these steps are located "in the building"....
-- DVP; July 2014
DAVID VON PEIN ALSO SAID:
And if Oswald had really been standing on the steps in front of the Book Depository Building at 12:30 PM, why did he tell Captain Fritz that he was on the first floor eating lunch at just about that same time?....
"I asked him what part of the building he was in at the time the President was shot, and he said that he was having his lunch about that time on the first floor." -- Captain J.W. Fritz; Warren Report; Page 600
Also....
As I said HERE in August 2013, it's interesting to note "Stetson Man" (on the left) as he seems to look up toward the upper floors of the TSBD just after the shots were fired....
In addition, I noticed something else in the film frame below today....
It looks to me as if the man on the far right might be looking UP toward the upper TSBD floors too. It looks like his head is tilted upward here. So this image would certainly tend to indicate that at least two other people in Dealey Plaza had their attention drawn to the upper floors of the Book Depository Building within seconds of the last shot being fired at President Kennedy....
TONY FRATINI SAID:
Both men were probably wondering what Jarman, Norman and Williams on the 5th floor were doing with [their] heads sticking out the window?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
But what would have caused those two men to look up there in the first place to even notice Jarman, Norman, and Williams?
Those three fifth-floor parade watchers didn't shout down to the street, "Hey, Mr. Stetson Man, look up here!!"
TONY FRATINI SAID:
Well, the shots did pass "over their heads" -- yet not everyone in DP [Dealey Plaza] uniformly looked up at the upper floors of the TSBD. Post shots, most ran to the railroad tracks. Officer Baker saw pigeons fly up into the air. There could be a multitude of reasons why people would look up.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yeah, with one really good reason being....
TONY FRATINI SAID:
Have you worked out how LHO got CE142 to the SE corner yet?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Oswald was all alone on the TSBD's sixth floor for several minutes on 11/22/63. So why would it have been an impossible feat for the man who was ALL ALONE up there to have moved a paper bag (and a rifle) to a different part of the sixth floor during the period of time when he was ALL ALONE up on that sixth floor? I see no problem with this at all.
Why do you see a problem with it, Tony?
I await your logical pro-CT response (if such a response is possible).
DAVID VON PEIN ALSO SAID:
FWIW.....
I really have no idea if the "Prayer" person is a male or a female, but I took note of this statement in Commission Document No. 706 (also found in CE1381) by Mrs. Pauline Sanders, a 55-year-old white female, who was standing on the TOP STEP of the Book Depository Building at the time of the President's assassination.
Sanders, however, said she was standing on the EAST side of the top step, so that wouldn't exactly fit the bill for "Prayer Person's" position. But it's pretty close.
In her March 19, 1964, FBI statement, Mrs. Sanders said that another woman, Sarah Stanton (age 41), was "standing next to me" on the steps of the Depository. Here is Stanton's 3/18/64 FBI statement.
So that means there were definitely two different women (aged 55 and 41) standing on the steps of the TSBD during the time of the assassination (and very likely on the top step, and that looks like the same step where "Prayer Person" is located).
And here is an FBI report regarding an interview with Pauline Sanders on 11/24/63 (CE1434).
DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:
To illustrate the fact that virtually anything can get published if it deals with a "JFK conspiracy" (no matter how silly and speculative and unprovable and blurry it might be), we now have "Prayer Man" in book form. Incredible. ....
DAVID VON PEIN ALSO SAID:
On September 16, 2024, JFK researcher Denis Morissette received the following e-mail from The Sixth Floor Museum At Dealey Plaza concerning the Darnell film. Click to enlarge:
David Von Pein
September 18, 2015
September 20-21, 2015
September 21, 2015 [This forum link is no longer available.]
November 2, 2015 [This forum link is no longer available.]
September 13, 2024
September 16, 2024
================================
A RELATED DISCUSSION....
GREG DOUDNA SAID THIS AND THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Huh? Your TSBD exit strategy for Lee Harvey Oswald makes absolutely NO logical sense at all (let alone "excellent sense"). Because I think most reasonable people would agree that a person leaving via a BACK door tends to look MORE suspicious to anyone who might notice him than does a person who walks out the front door of an edifice (and particularly so after a major crime has just been committed in or near that edifice).
Plus: there's the fact (via the "Prayer Man is Oswald" theory) that LHO would have already been outside the building, on the front steps, when the shooting occurred. So why run the risk of getting trapped inside a building that surely Oswald knows would be sealed off by the police in a very very short period of time after the assassination? Makes zero sense to me.
Plus: Via the theory which has Oswald being the Prayer Man figure, not only does Oswald risk getting trapped in the building by police, but he then decides to go UP one floor to the SECOND floor (for some strange reason)!
So he wants to quickly get out of the building, and yet he goes back into the building and travels UP one flight to boot?! And all the while he could have just walked down the front steps and then out of Dealey Plaza within seconds of the shots being fired at the President!?
In closing this post, I feel compelled to add this final comment --- WTF??!!
GREG DOUDNA SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
So, then, in your view, Oswald didn't care at all about the fact that he might get trapped inside the building when the police sealed it off? Even though it's pretty clear from LHO's actions that day that he definitely did want to get AWAY from the TSBD Building very shortly after 12:30 PM? Is that correct, Greg?
GREG DOUDNA SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Re: Oswald's movements immediately after the assassination....
I think Oswald came down the back stairs from the sixth floor. He probably heard Baker and Truly coming up the stairs, so he quickly ducked into the lunchroom to avoid detection. Oswald then had his brief encounter with Officer Baker and was cleared as an employee by Mr. Truly.
Lee then purchased a Coke from the Coca-Cola machine [or, just maybe, he obtained his Coke in this manner], and then Oswald walked through the offices there on the second floor and went down the front stairs, which were very near the front entrance to the building.
So at this point in the chronology, I would ask: Why on Earth would Oswald have then decided it was a good idea for him to walk all the way to the back of the building so he could exit via the loading dock rear door? That makes no logical sense to me whatsoever, especially since it's my opinion that Oswald was most certainly in a very big hurry to leave the Depository building as fast as he could at that point in time (i.e., just three minutes or so after he himself, IMO, had just shot the U.S. President from the sixth floor of that building).
Re: Officer Baker, Mrs. Reid, and the "jacket"....
It's my opinion that Oswald very likely shot JFK while wearing only his white T-shirt. He likely placed his brown outer shirt on the floor or on a box during the shooting itself. He then utilized that brown shirt as a fingerprint-wiping rag as he quickly made his way from the Sniper's Nest to the staircase on the other side of the 6th floor.
And yes, I realize that LHO didn't do such a great job of wiping off all of the prints that he put on the rifle that day. But I think my shirt/prints scenario still makes a lot of sense, especially in light of the fact that fibers consistent with Oswald's brown arrest shirt were found wedged in the butt plate of the Carcano rifle. The print-wiping theory makes the most sense, IMO, in an effort to explain how those relatively fresh fibers managed to get themselves wedged into that rifle crevice. YMMV, of course.
After dumping his rifle among the book stacks near the stairs, Oswald then puts on his brown shirt as he darts down the stairs, but he leaves the shirt untucked and unbuttoned. Hence, when he's seen by Officer Baker in the lunchroom just seconds later, the untucked/unbuttoned shirt, in Baker's eyes, has the appearance of a "jacket". And I think it's safe to assume that Baker probably wasn't paying too much detailed attention to Oswald's clothing at that moment in time on 11/22/63. Ergo, Baker simply made a mistake. He incorrectly thought the open shirt was a jacket.
Mrs. Reid, in a contradiction to what Baker observed just seconds earlier, said that Oswald wasn't wearing any shirt or jacket over the T-shirt she said Oswald was wearing. So it would seem as though one of those two witnesses is incorrect on that point--either Baker or Reid.
But the observations of Mary Bledsoe on the bus a short time later (she saw Oswald wearing a brown shirt), plus the fact that Oswald was arrested while wearing a brown shirt, would seem to suggest that it was Mrs. Reid who was the person that was mistaken about whether or not Lee Oswald was wearing something over his T-shirt.
Re: Buell Frazier not noticing Oswald exit the front door....
It might seem unreasonable to some JFK researchers to suggest that so many people near the TSBD front stoop could have missed seeing Lee Oswald exit the building after the assassination, but let me also point out the fact that there weren't many witnesses who said they saw Marrion Baker dash into the Depository that day either. And we know that Baker entered through the front TSBD door within less than a minute of the shots being fired.
Plus: other than Buell Wesley Frazier's very late-in-coming (2002) observation about seeing Oswald walking down Houston Street approx. 5 to 10 minutes after the shooting (which totally contradicts what Frazier said in the last sentence of his 11/22/63 affidavit), there's not one other witness (with the possible exceptions of newsmen Pierce Allman and/or Robert MacNeil) who claimed they saw Oswald leaving the Book Depository on November 22, 1963, whether it be via the front door or the back door. And we all know he really did depart the TSBD and Dealey Plaza within minutes of the assassination. Even most dedicated conspiracy believers don't deny that provable fact.
So the "Nobody Saw Him Leave" excuse that conspiracists often use isn't really a viable excuse at all. Because everybody knows for a fact that Oswald did leave very shortly after 12:30.
Re: Hosty's "P. Parade" note....
"I don't think the words "Presidential Parade" came out of the mouth of Lee Harvey Oswald. Based on all of the official FINAL reports (from Fritz, Bookhout, Hosty, and Kelley), I think the words "P. Parade" that appear in the "new" Hosty note were probably HOSTY'S words and HOSTY'S interpretation of Oswald's "out with Bill Shelley" statement. Otherwise, we'd have a lot more reports (and notes) that had the word "Parade" in them." -- DVP; February 2019
Lots more discussion here:
Where Was Lee Harvey Oswald When JFK Was Shot?
PAT SPEER SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
And not only did Fritz, Bookhout, and Hosty do Oswald a HUGE FAVOR [if LHO had really told those men that he had been located on the steps of the TSBD at the moment of the assassination]....but Oswald HIMSELF did those men an even bigger favor when he clammed up and decided to not tell the world VIA LIVE TELEVISION that he was standing on the Depository steps when the shooting occurred.
And, keep in mind, Oswald had MULTIPLE chances to do just that while he was in police custody and to shout out to the reporters and live TV cameras: I was on the front steps when JFK was shot!
So why on Earth didn't Lee Oswald tell the world—on TV—that he was really outside the building at 12:30 PM on Nov. 22nd?
The most logical (and obvious) answer to my last question is:
Because Oswald wasn't outside the building at all when the assassination of JFK was taking place.
SANDY LARSEN SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Which is, of course, an incredible and next-to-impossible-to-believe "Let's Set Up Oswald" like-mindedness on the part of the alleged PRE-assassination plotters and the alleged POST-assassination evidence alterers. How anyone can believe such fiction is beyond me.
Related topic (which can also be applied to the things I just said above)....
What Are The Odds Of Both Of These Things Occurring In The Very Same Murder Case?
DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:
Another attempt at interjecting some common sense into the "Prayer Man" debate [following this initial attempt from two days ago]....
Do all of the conspiracy theorists who currently endorse the "Oswald Is Prayer Man" theory really and truly believe that Lee Harvey Oswald would have actually had a desire to go back into the TSBD Building within just seconds of the shots being fired at JFK?
The answer to the question I just asked, of course, can only be: Yes, those CTers must hold such a belief. And that's because LHO was definitely located inside the building just a minute or so after the assassination.
Next logical question for people who think Oswald was standing on the TSBD steps at 12:30:
Since we know Lee Oswald left Dealey Plaza within minutes of the shooting (indicating an obvious desire on his part to get away from the scene of the assassination very quickly after President Kennedy was shot), why would Oswald have wanted to delay his departure (i.e., "getaway") for even a few seconds by going back into a building that he likely thought could be sealed off by police at any moment?
Food for "Prayer Man" thought.
SANDY LARSEN SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
But Oswald had no way of knowing that "work was cancelled" at the time he left the building (which was at approx. 12:33 PM, give or take). Do you think Oswald, as of ca. 12:33, was already guessing (correctly) that there wouldn't be any more work done that day?
I know that last question is irrelevant to you anyway, Sandy. You think Oswald would have left for his (make-believe) theater rendezvous even if Lee didn't suspect that his work day was over.
But why run the risk of other theater patrons overhearing (or seeing) LHO and Ruth Paine (er, uh, I mean the phantom person you say was Lee's "handler", or the "someone" you think the "handler" told LHO to meet at the Texas Theater)?
Wouldn't a better and safer "rendezvous" be for the handler (or the unknown "someone") to simply pick up Oswald on some Dallas side street (or alley) and then the two of them sit and talk, in private, in the handler's 1955 station wagon (er, uh, I mean the handler's vehicle---whatever model car it was)?
Don't tell me the "someone" that Oswald was supposed to meet in the theater had the same motor vehicle impairment that Lee Oswald also had on 11/22/63?! --- I.E., no driver's license and no car?! 😁
SANDY LARSEN SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Bill Shelley most certainly did not tell Oswald that work was finished for the day.
The "Shelley" references we find in James Bookhout's 11/22/63 FBI report are, of course, just a sample of the many lies that Oswald told the authorities after LHO was arrested. Shelley confirmed that the last time he saw Oswald on Nov. 22 was prior to 12 Noon [7 H 390].
So, is Shelley more believable on this point? Or is Lee Oswald the one who is telling the truth? (I think the answer is obvious.)
GREG DOUDNA SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Greg,
All of the things you mentioned above are only possible because you've decided (on your own) that the fuzzy and indistinct images of Prayer Man in the Darnell Film are positively images of Lee Harvey Oswald.
You made that bold declaration on Oct. 12, 2024, at 10:23 PM (EDT) when you made this highly-dubious claim at The Education Forum:
"There is enough to make the identification. Prayer Man was Oswald, beyond reasonable doubt." -- G. Doudna
But without LHO being Prayer Person, we can pretty much know that Oswald could not possibly have heard William H. Shelley make any statements to anyone outside the building at around 12:30 to 12:32 PM on 11/22, because LHO was not outside the building to hear any such remarks by Shelley (even if Shelley did make them, which he did not, according to Shelley's own Warren Commission testimony).
Therefore, it's reasonable to conclude that Oswald was simply lying to Fritz/Bookhout/Hosty regarding all of the things he said about Bill Shelley.
Footnote....
I suppose it's possible, however, for a conspiracy believer (or, for that matter, even a Lone Assassin believer) to postulate the idea that as Oswald was leaving the TSBD Building at around 12:33 PM, he inadvertently heard Shelley say something to someone (if we discount the idea that Shelley had already left the area of the TSBD's front entrance by that time; but that's yet another subject).
But even if we were to assume that Oswald, just by pure chance and good fortune, had heard Bill Shelley say something to someone else at that precise time when Oswald was leaving the building but was still within earshot of Shelley's voice .... is it reasonable to think that Shelley would have been telling his employees as early as 12:33 PM (just three minutes after the shooting had occurred) that there would definitely be no more work done that day at the Book Depository? Wouldn't that have been a bit early for Shelley (or anyone) to have been making a decision like that?
You can argue, of course, that the bedlam and confusion and chaos caused by the Presidential assassination attempt was certainly a major enough event to cause William Shelley to almost immediately make such a "No More Work Today" decision.
But, still, 12:33 seems a bit early for such a decision, in my opinion, especially in view of the fact that President Kennedy had not even arrived at Parkland Hospital by that time, and therefore nobody at the Depository (as of 12:33) was aware of JFK's condition or, in fact, if he had positively been struck by the gunfire at all.
GREG DOUDNA SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Since you brought up "ballpark" figures, maybe these stats can tie into this discussion....
Via the large number of analytic statistics used in Major League Baseball nowadays, they can easily calculate how fast a player can run from Point A to Point B (such as home plate to first base). And I noted tonight that Dodgers' superstar Shohei Ohtani, in 2022, averaged 4.07 seconds when running between home and first base. (He was with the Angels then, of course.)
That means that Ohtani could have gotten from the Grassy Knoll fence to the TSBD front steps in 6.33 seconds (assuming your "140 feet" estimate is fairly accurate).
Now, of course, I'm certainly not saying that Mr. Pierce Allman of WFAA Radio in Dallas could run as fast as the fastest man in Major League Baseball (although I think a man on my team, the Cincinnati Reds, just might be even faster---Elly De La Cruz; but that's another debate altogether). :)
But if we just want to use "ballpark" type figures and start with the absolute FASTEST time that anybody on the planet could likely make such a Dealey Plaza sprint, then I'd say that your estimate of 11 seconds is probably a pretty decent guess for any guy with average running speed who isn't making $28-Million per season as the Los Angeles Dodgers Designated Hitter. 😁
SANDY LARSEN SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Incorrect.
Marrion Baker never used the word "hallway" in his 11/22 affidavit [HERE]. He said "I saw a man walking away from the stairway". And, technically, Oswald was walking "away" from the "stairway" when Baker first saw him.
"Why can't conspiracists accept Marrion Baker's "third or fourth floor" statement for what it so clearly is — a simple and honest mistake made by a police officer who was in a chaotic and frantic situation within minutes of the President having just been shot, and who was not paying close attention at all to what floor he was standing on when he pointed his gun at Lee Harvey Oswald's stomach in the lunchroom on November 22, 1963?" -- DVP; December 2017
Also See:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/The Lunchroom Encounter
DAVID VON PEIN LATER ADDED:
As I mentioned in my "Lunchroom" link above, I think it's kind of interesting to take notice of the fact that the late Vincent Bugliosi, who wrote the book excerpt pictured below, evidently had no idea at all that today's 21st Century Conspiracy Theorists have invented a brand-new theory surrounding the "Second-Floor Lunchroom Encounter". With that ridiculous "new" fantasy theory being, of course: The Lunchroom Encounter Never Happened At All.
Click to enlarge:
GREG DOUDNA SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Hi again Greg,
Can you explain once again the reason for why Lee Oswald LIED to the press (and to the world via the live television cameras which were focused on him) when he said he was INSIDE the Depository building at the time of JFK's murder? [See video below.]
So, assuming LHO was really "out with Bill Shelley in front" at exactly 12:30 when JFK was being shot, not only does Oswald NOT tell the world that key and critical fact about being OUTSIDE the building at 12:30 (when he had a perfect chance to do so in the video below), but he actually decides to tell a LIE and say that he was IN the building instead.
I would think that those statements by Oswald would be very difficult to reconcile and to explain in a logical manner if you're a believer in the "Prayer Man Is Oswald" theory.
And I realize that there are some conspiracy believers who seem to think that Oswald's "in the building" statement to the press on 11/22/63 is not at all inconsistent with Oswald also being the Prayer Man figure on the TSBD steps. But as I discussed with various CTers several years ago [HERE], such a notion regarding the location of the Depository's front steps is just not a reasonable one.
GREG DOUDNA SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
If I was the prosecutor of Lee Harvey Oswald at his murder trial, and if I was trying to convince the jury that Oswald could not possibly be the so-called "Prayer Man" figure seen in the film recorded in Dealey Plaza by WBAP-TV cameraman James Darnell on 11/22/63, I would hammer away at the following key points to make my case:
1. Lee Harvey Oswald himself, when given ample opportunity on Nov. 22 and Nov. 23, never bothered to tell the world (via live TV) that he was standing outside on the front steps of the Book Depository Building at the precise time when President Kennedy was being shot and killed. (This #1 fact would be a huge hurdle for Oswald and his defense team to overcome in the courtroom.)
2. Oswald took a long(-ish) paper package into the TSBD on the morning of 11/22/63, and he LIED about the contents of that package to fellow worker Buell Wesley Frazier by telling Frazier the package contained curtain rods. (And I think I could easily prove to the jury's satisfaction that Oswald's "curtain rods" story was indeed a lie, by introducing these facts at the trial.)
3. It was established beyond all reasonable doubt by firearms tests that Oswald's very own rifle was fired at JFK's motorcade on November 22, 1963. And it was also established that there was no conclusive evidence to indicate that any gun other than Oswald's C2766 Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was fired at the motorcade in Dealey Plaza.
4. As far as this writer (and temporary prosecutor) is aware, Lee Oswald was the only Depository employee who was known to have been inside the TSBD Building at the time JFK was shot and then left the building very shortly after the shooting took place. (Any "Prayer Man" alibi attempt by Oswald or his defense counsel notwithstanding, of course.)
Most of the other employees did just the opposite---they were outside during the time of the assassination, but then went back inside the building after the shooting had occurred. I would argue to the jury that such an "inside then outside" action by Oswald most certainly indicates an attempt to flee the scene of a crime that Oswald himself was very much involved in committing.
5. Oswald then took a bus and cab to his roominghouse in Oak Cliff, and then armed himself with a revolver. He then walked to Tenth Street and murdered Police Officer J.D. Tippit by shooting him four times. (If the Tippit murder is declared out of bounds and is severed from a JFK murder trial, then I'll be forced to introduce all this evidence which conclusively proves that Oswald murdered Officer Tippit at a second jury trial.)
6. I would then proceed to introduce all of the remaining pieces of evidence which, in their totality, prove beyond all reasonable doubt that Lee Harvey Oswald killed President John F. Kennedy and that Oswald was most certainly not the person in this picture known as "Prayer Man". Most of that additional evidence is discussed at my website below:
Wrapping Up....
Yes, I believe my arguments would (and should) be more than strong enough to secure a Guilty verdict from a reasonable and sensible jury.
And regarding your last question....
In my closing arguments to the jury, I would hammer away--again and again--at my #1 item listed above: the fact that Lee Oswald himself didn't even mention his alleged ironclad "I Was Outside On The Steps" alibi when he had the perfect opportunity to do so in the hallways at Dallas City Hall on the very night of JFK's murder.
Plus, I would also forcefully remind the jury that Oswald had more than just one chance to tell the world (via the TV cameras) about his "out front with Shelley" alibi during his two days in police custody. But he failed to say a single word about it on those other occasions as well.
In addition, I would also stress to the jury that Oswald told Police Homicide Captain J. Will Fritz that he (Oswald) was "on the first floor", not outside the building, when JFK was shot [see WCR Page 600 and WCR Page 613].
GREG DOUDNA SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Since Lee Harvey Oswald's minute-by-minute and step-by-step movements within the Texas School Book Depository during the key moments just before and just after President Kennedy was shot are not known (and can never be known) with 100% certainty, then I suppose anyone could come up with some kind of a scenario in which Oswald ends up not being a gunman in JFK's murder on 11/22/63. (And, of course, many people have invented such scenarios over the years.)
The question I'm about to ask below doesn't really prove anything, but I think it's a good question to ask once in a while anyway)....
Who do you think is MORE LIKELY (on ANY given day, including 11/22/63) to use a rifle that was proven to have been owned and possessed by Lee Harvey Oswald?
Is the answer to that last question "Lee Harvey Oswald"? Or is the answer "somebody other than Lee Harvey Oswald"?
Food for thought anyway.
And then there's Howard Brennan's Warren Commission testimony, in which he positively identified Oswald as JFK's assassin.
Almost all conspiracists totally ignore Brennan's testimony, of course. But his positive I.D. of Oswald is still going to exist in Warren Commission Volume 3 whether anyone wants to believe it or not:
DAVID W. BELIN -- "Mr. Brennan, could you tell us now whether you can or cannot positively identify the man you saw on the sixth floor window as the same man that you saw in the police station?"
HOWARD L. BRENNAN -- "I could at that time I could, with all sincerity, identify him as being the same man."
In Summary....
The sum total of all the evidence in both the JFK and Tippit murder cases most certainly indicates that Lee Oswald was (beyond reasonable doubt, IMO) guilty of shooting both of those men with his own guns.
An attempt to place Oswald's Carcano rifle into the hands of some unknown shooter who fired that gun from the sixth floor of the Depository is a scenario that conspiracy believers can put forth if they so desire. But such a scenario is always going to be built on a foundation of nothing but speculation and guesswork, with no solid evidence to support it at all.
GREG DOUDNA SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
As I stated earlier, it's ALL of the evidence in its entirety that convicts Oswald, IMO.
And there's the fact that no strangers were seen in the building by anyone on 11/22 (except for the old man using the bathroom on the 1st floor).
Do you really believe that Oswald gave some stranger his rifle, and the stranger then shot JFK with it? Plus, the stranger/assassin somehow managed to GET INTO and OUT OF the building totally unnoticed by anyone who worked in the TSBD? (Not an impossible task, I suppose, but does it sound very probable?)
Or, as an alternative to the "stranger" theory, do you perhaps think that Oswald handed off his Carcano to a fellow TSBD employee?
JOSEPH McBRIDE SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I've never understood why so many conspiracy theorists have decided to totally ignore all the evidence (paperwork) that proves Oswald ordered and owned Rifle C2766. It's absurd.
A much better conspiracy theory regarding the rifle (and the revolver LHO positively owned too) would be for CTers to just admit the obvious truth---that being: Oswald did order, own, and possess the Carcano rifle (and the Smith & Wesson revolver)---and then the CTers can theorize that some unknown conspirators framed Oswald with his own rifle.
That theory makes so much more sense than to pretend that all of the evidence connected with the rifle has been faked, such as all of the Klein's paperwork and the backyard photos and LHO's palmprint on the rifle.
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/12/Oswald Ordered The Rifle
JOSEPH McBRIDE SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Joseph, does it really surprise you so much to learn that not everybody in this world accepts the ridiculous (and impossible) notion that all of the rifle and handgun evidence "was fabricated"?
Get real.
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/10/Oswald's Money Order
GREG DOUDNA SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
But if Oswald was really "Prayer Man" on the front steps, and if Lee had played a "different role" in JFK's assassination that day in Dallas, I would feel compelled to ask....
Why, then, wasn't Oswald doing at least a little something to try and protect the gunman who was using Oswald's rifle up on the 6th floor at 12:30?
Why wasn't Lee also on the sixth floor when the shooting occurred, standing near the stairs and elevators acting as a "lookout", in order to watch out for anybody who might wander onto the sixth floor so that Lee could yell out a warning to the gunman in the Sniper's Nest?
Instead, even though Oswald himself is involved in the plot to kill the President (per Greg Doudna's analysis), Lee decides to do NOTHING at all to help or aid his co-conspirator who was using LHO's gun up on the 6th floor. Lee, instead, decides to wander outside to the front steps just as the shooting is taking place.
Doesn't make much sense to me.
This is what tends to happen when someone makes an attempt to "adjust" the evidence that exists in the JFK murder case. Since the evidence of Lee Oswald's guilt is so overwhelming, then any attempt to "adjust" or "rearrange" that evidence in an effort to take the gun out of Oswald's own hands at 12:30 PM on 11/22/63 is almost assuredly going to end up producing a theory that doesn't make much sense.
DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN ALSO SAID:
We all should keep in mind the FACT that Lee H. Oswald was a FIRST-CLASS LIAR starting at 2:00 PM CST on 11/22/63. And a lot of the things we find in the police/FBI reports and notes are (quite clearly) LIES being uttered to the police by a person (Oswald) who was trying the best he could to hide his involvement in the murder of the 35th President.
And when a person starts telling a bunch of lies, it sometimes becomes difficult to keep all of the lies straight, and the lies also sometimes can become rather incoherent and (at times) contradictory.
It's much easier to keep the truth straight than it is to juggle a dozen lies that a murderer needs to tell. Perhaps that's why Oswald told the police the two ridiculous and absurd (provable) lies about how he ate his lunch AFTER his encounter with Officer Marrion Baker and then---AFTER the encounter with Baker and AFTER eating his lunch---he went outside and "stood around for 5 or 10 minutes with Foreman Bill Shelley" (which, as we know, was impossible due to the fact that we know that Oswald, after walking several blocks east on Elm Street, got on Cecil McWatters' bus at about 12:40 PM, so there's no way he was still in the area of the Book Depository AFTER eating a post-Baker-encounter lunch AND after spending up to ten minutes hanging out with Mr. Shelley).
My main point (once again) --- Oswald was a huge liar!
GREG DOUDNA SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
But my main conclusion, as I mentioned earlier, is that Oswald was lying through his teeth when he said a lot of the things he said during his interrogation. And sometimes lies can sound a bit nonsensical, can't they?
Plus....
When we rely on James Bookhout's typewritten FBI report (WCR, p.619), versus having to rely on just rough notes, the chronology is clearly spelled out for us by Mr. Bookhout....
1. Oswald has his second-floor lunchroom encounter with Police Officer Marrion Baker (after "having just purchased" a Coke, according to LHO).
2. Oswald then takes that Coke down to the first floor and eats his lunch.
3. Oswald then goes outside and sees Bill Shelley.
I think the key word that FBI Agent Bookhout uses in his solo report (seen below) that verifies the chronology between items 2 and 3 listed above is the word "thereafter" --- "He thereafter went outside...".
It's obvious via the use of that word ("thereafter") that James Bookhout's understanding of what he heard Lee Oswald tell Captain Fritz was that Oswald went outside only after he had eaten his lunch on the first floor and only after LHO had encountered Officer Baker on the 2nd floor (as crazy as that chronology might sound to us now).
And the three-part chronology I just listed above perfectly matches what we find in James Hosty's handwritten notes discovered in 2019 (also seen below).
If some people want to believe that Bookhout and Hosty (plus Captain Fritz as well) deliberately lied and intentionally placed the things that Oswald said out of the proper order, then I guess they are free to believe that such deception took place.
But based on all of the evidence left behind by the assassin on the 6th floor (e.g., LHO's rifle, paper bag with LHO's prints, and LHO's prints on the Sniper's Nest boxes), I'll choose to believe Oswald shot JFK from the sixth floor, and any inconsistencies and/or contradictions that exist within the various police/FBI reports and notes are the result of less-than-perfect note-taking with respect to the non-stop lies that were being told by an assassin who preferred not to admit he murdered the President.
DAVID VON PEIN ALSO SAID ALL THIS AND
POSTED THE IMAGES BELOW:
GREG DOUDNA SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
In keeping with Greg's last humorous post above, I'll offer up the following info....
I have recently had a "Eureka!" moment and have finally discovered who "Prayer Man" really is!
PM is the blob seen in the picture on the right below! I'm sure of it! The resemblance is remarkable/uncanny/startling, don't you think?!
The blob first appeared in the TV series "Jonny Quest", in the January 1965 episode "The Invisible Monster". But prior to the blob's starring role in the Quest series, he/it was seen several times at Jack Ruby's nightclub in Dallas in October and early November of 1963. Plus, the beast was also seen driving Lee Harvey Oswald to work on 11/21/63, just one day before the assassination!
Thank goodness this ongoing "Prayer Man" mystery has now been solved. The "PM" object in the Darnell Film can now be officially renamed "Prayer Monster" (so that we can at least retain the "PM" initials for the beast). 😁
David Von Pein
October 11-28, 2024
================================
"PRAYER MAN" ADDENDUM....
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
The "Prayer Man" figure could very easily be a non-TSBD person (i.e., a total stranger).
A stranger, who might have been looking for a good place to watch the motorcade from, might very well have climbed to the top of the Depository stairs in order to view the parade from that vantage point. And no one can possibly prove that such a scenario didn't happen.
[...]
BTW / FWIW....
Buell Wesley Frazier, in his more recent interviews, has said that he had the best seat in the house (when referring to his parade-watching location on the top step of the TSBD). And he was standing practically right next to "Prayer Man".
DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:
The films which depict the "Prayer Man" figure are just too low-quality and indistinct to allow us to make anything close to a positive identification of the Prayer Man figure. And that must, indeed, be very frustrating for many conspiracy believers who think Oswald was innocent of the assassination. Heck, it's even frustrating for me as well, because I'd like to know for sure who the PM figure is too.
But there are many things that tell me PM is not LHO. The biggest of which is the fact that Oswald himself didn't tell the waiting press---on Live TV---that he was outside on the steps when JFK was being shot---and that was right after LHO was asked, point-blank, "Were you in the building at the time?". And that live television broadcast at 7:55 PM CST on Nov. 22 was a TV broadcast that could not have been controlled by the "evil" DPD.
DAVID VON PEIN ALSO SAID:
The person who has been labeled "Prayer Man" might very well be lurking in some of the other pictures and videos that I have on my websites. It's especially hard to know, though, because the PM figure could conceivably be almost anybody in any of the Dealey Plaza photos. My goodness, there's even been debate about whether the PM figure is a man or a woman. So when searching for him/(her) in my photo/video collection, that broadens the possibilities considerably.
Here's a good place to start looking for Prayer Man (or Woman). This picture below was taken very shortly after the assassination (click to enlarge):
MARK TYLER SAID:
Hi David, I completely agree with you, the so called Prayer Man is so visually ambiguous it could be anyone (perhaps with the exception of LHO, who would surely have been noticed by the others on the steps, especially Frazier?).
As you suggest, this may even be a woman, and be a misgendering! (Perhaps just like the black dog man, who was probably a woman, according to Marilyn Sitzman).
If it was a woman, I would say it was a slightly shorter, fuller figured lady with shorter hair, wearing a mid-dark top, with short sleeves. Perhaps like this lady in the foreground of this photo, seen from the rear (who also seems to be adopting a prayer-like arm-holding position):
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Hi Mark!
In the same photo you posted above, I can see two other possible "Prayer Man" candidates—the two young men I've drawn arrows to. Is there any reason why either of these two guys couldn't be PM?
You see, the PM possibilities are almost endless.
MARK TYLER SAID:
Indeed David, the field is wide open on this one!
Both guys you identify seem about the right shorter height, although I think the long sleeves on the left would rule him out.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
But what, then, do the CTers do with Oswald's long-sleeve shirt? If PM is Oswald, then PM should be wearing the brown long-sleeve shirt he wore to work on 11/22, right?
Plus, the PM image is so incredibly crappy, the PM person could very well be wearing a long-sleeve shirt (IMO). I think the sun could be reflecting on PM's amazingly lengthy (?) right forearm, making that forearm look lighter than other parts of his (or her) body which are in the shade.
(This is a photo by Duncan MacRae....)
MARK TYLER SAID:
The sun could indeed be lighting the forearm more brightly, which might explain what we see in the image. The only other thing I would mention is that the flesh tones in the face are very close to those we see in the forearm, which are both much lighter than the darker shirt.
However, as you say, the image is of a terrible quality and you wouldn't want to bet your life on a positive ID one way or the other.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
After my last post, I went to Robin Unger's excellent photo archive and downloaded this version (below) of the "Prayer Man" picture (taken from Jimmy Darnell's WBAP-TV news film), and now I think I've changed my mind about the "forearm in sunlight" theory.
When looking at the whole image, I don't think PM's arm is in sunlight at all. We can see where the shade/shadow ends, and we can see the sunlight shining on Buell Frazier's chest in this image. But it doesn't look like the forearm of "Prayer Man" is in the sunlight at all. All of PM seems to be in the shade.
But I'm wondering still about something I brought up before....
If Prayer Man is Oswald (as many CTers believe), then did he roll up his sleeves when he was filmed by James Darnell out on the steps? Because we know Oswald wore that brown/rusty long-sleeved shirt to work on 11/22. And we also know (or at least I am convinced of it) that LHO did not have his sleeves rolled up when Mrs. Bledsoe saw Oswald on the bus just a few minutes after the "PM" image was captured (because Bledsoe saw the hole in the elbow area of Oswald's brown shirt, which means his sleeves were not rolled up at that time).
Anyway, I'm just curious as to what CTers are thinking regarding Oswald
and his shirt sleeves in relation to what we see in the Prayer Man image.
[I received a reply here.]
Click to enlarge this image to 1999px:
David Von Pein
July 7-8, 2022
================================
ANOTHER DISCUSSION....
ON MAY 1, 2016, JEAN DAVISON SAID:
IMO, the prayer man theory has the same fatal weakness as other JFK conspiracy theories: Instead of a narrative explaining how the evidence fits together to show what happened, we get a bunch of things that look “suspicious” and unseen plotters who plant evidence, suborn perjury, and do anything else necessary to frame the poor patsy.
The problem is that the masterminds are, as usual, all-powerful and yet incredibly stupid. They plant a weapon they’ve tied to Oswald yet somehow neglect to keep the patsy from wandering outside to acquire what should’ve been an ironclad alibi.
So now they have to get anyone who knew the truth to lie about it. But hey, no problem. With the right threats, who wouldn’t agree to help frame an innocent man in a president’s murder and keep quiet about it forever, right? Even better, Oswald doesn’t mention his alibi, either.
The usual CT explanation, “They lied,” is not the only alternative and not the most sensible one. Mrs. Reid testified that she didn’t stop at her desk when she came back into the office. Instead she kept on walking toward the same door Oswald emerged from at the back of the room. She and Oswald may’ve crossed paths while Hine was still in the front hall knocking on office doors. I don’t know if Reid was ever asked where she was headed, but she may’ve been in the restroom or in the lunchroom getting a snack when Hine returned. IOW, nobody had to be lying to explain why they didn’t see each other.
Reid entered through the door at the bottom of this chart. Her desk was near the dumbwaiter marked with an arrow near the top. The X and R show where she passed Oswald, which is on the other side of her desk:
http://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134
Hine's and Reid's testimony:
http://jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/hine.htm
http://jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/reid.htm
GREG PARKER (USING THE ALIAS "GEORGE") SAID:
The jig is up, Jean. They are no longer yours and McAdams' “mysterious and unseen plotters”. They are individuals within the DPD and DA’s office.
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
Please tell me that story. How do you suppose they pulled it off?
Did Wade and his henchman get Oswald his job? Fake Klein’s records, the BY [Backyard] photos (taken in springtime, according to the evidence)? Did they arrange for Oswald to bring a package to work that day or was that just a lucky coincidence? Did Wade & company control the autopsy, somehow make the “real” bullets disappear — or did someone steal the M-C [Mannlicher-Carcano] and use that?
In your story so far, there were numerous witnesses to Oswald’s “alibi” — Truly, Baker, Barrett, Reid, Campbell, whoever else was nearby and saw Oswald. Were all of them contacted right away and brought onboard? “Listen, Mr. Truly, you’ve got to say you saw him on the second floor….or else!” Etc.
Just speculate about how it might have been done, that’s all I’m asking. No WC critic has ever provided an alternative scenario to explain how all the evidence against Oswald got there if he didn’t do it. You would be the first.
GREG PARKER SAID:
The same way they pulled off the other 24 and counting, Jean.
Let’s try this BEFORE going into specifics. What I want you to do right now is acknowledge that this was a corrupt-to-the-core justice system operating in Dallas. Acknowledgement of the real issue is the first step on the path to rehabilitation – in this case of the real history.
Take that small but important step, Jean, and we can move on to the details.
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
Sure, I know of Wade’s disgraceful record as a prosecutor and the innocent men who were exonerated through DNA tests. If you can show that Wade framed Oswald, please do.
Now could you answer the questions I’ve asked, as a start?
WILLY WHITTEN SAID:
Now you have gone too far Jean. It has been explained to you on numerous threads on this forum, how evidence was tampered with. How the chains of custody of evidence is broken. How the DPD lied. How the ‘snipers nest’ most certainly is a staged theater, how the ballistic evidence proves a shot from the front; how the back and throat wound are not provably connected, how the “Magic Bullet” theory is utter bunk…etc.
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
Yes, Willy, I know — you don’t get it. WC critics never do, it seems.
VANESSA SAID:
I would like to know what [Jean Davison] has to say about BWF [Buell Wesley Frazier] saying his family was threatened over his paper bag evidence.
It provides a clear example of one witness’ experience with the police.
It provides evidence of their MO when facing conflicting evidence.
It establishes their willingness to threaten the safety of witnesses' families.
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
Who said Frazier was afraid for his family because of what he said about the paper bag? Do you have a source for this? Or are we witnessing the dawn of a brand-new JFK myth?
Where is the quote from Frazier about being afraid for his family? Frazier has told his bag-too-short story repeatedly, so where’s the direct quote, please?
VANESSA SAID:
Jean,
Here is the link to the Frazier interview where he says he was afraid for his family.
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
What I see there is this: “In closing, the reader reports that ‘Frazier said it was best to stay quiet about the assassination out of fear of what could be done to his family.'”
Vanessa, there is a big difference between “Frazier said” and “The reader reports that …” I still don’t know what Frazier actually said, if anything.
It’s highly ironic that this comes from an article about a C-span interview with Frazier, the guy who’s supposedly afraid to talk about the assassination. He has been doing just that for decades — countless interviews and appearances at JFK conferences. His latest is a scheduled appearance at the Lancer powwow later this year [2016].
Afraid to talk? Yeah, right.
VANESSA SAID:
Jean,
Right at the end of this video [also embedded below], Buell says this:
Interviewer: You’ve given a few interviews over the years, but not that many. Why have you been so reluctant to share your story?
BWF: When this all happened, I was terrified. Some people believe in a conspiracy and some don’t. Well, you can believe whatever you like, this is America. That I knew there was people behind this – you best keep silent. Not go around talking, 'cause I didn’t want anything to happen to my family. I can accept a lot of things happening to me, but not my family.
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
Thanks for that link, Vanessa. If you’ll listen to the video, there’s an error in the closed captioning transcript.
Frazier actually said “…I knew that *IF* there was people behind this…”
Another example of how a secondary source can misstate the original one.
GREG PARKER SAID:
Back to the way Buell’s mind works. Why does he need an alibi? If he was innocent, there would be NO evidence of his guilt, would there?
No. Suggesting he could have used an alibi as well, despite knowing for a stone cold fact that he was innocent, is prima facie evidence that Buell knew how the justice system worked – that if they wanted to put you in jail, they would do that by any means available – including planting evidence and coercing witnesses etc.
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
That’s your interpretation, but not necessarily a fact. In an article I just found [here], Frazier said that some people blamed him for “helping” Oswald by giving him a ride to work. He said that at times he’d been “afraid that he might be killed by people seeking revenge for JFK’s death…”
If Oswald had been outside with him, Frazier wouldn’t have had that problem.
GREG PARKER SAID:
No. It just becomes a conspiracy of nuts with neither of those two being a shooter – but maybe lookouts. So it doesn’t necessarily get him off the hook with vengeful nuts, either.
But thank you for making Vanessa’s point. What may have begun as fear over one thing from one source, apparently morphed into a more generalized fear.
VANESSA SAID:
Frazier says he was pressured by Fritz to sign a confession that he was involved in the assassination (not that he was the lone assassin).
The two people we know that were threatened to sign confessions that weekend were Buell Frazier and Joe Molina.
Both were standing in close proximity to PM [Prayer Man] on the steps at the time of the assassination.
BWF and Molina both had rock solid alibis by being on those steps in full view of their co-workers who saw them and named them in WC testimony.
Why would the police threaten those two into signing false confessions when they were demonstrably innocent?
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
You’re jumping to the wrong conclusions, Vanessa. It was natural that the police would initially suspect Frazier might be an accomplice because as they saw it, he’d given Oswald and his murder weapon a ride to work. They couldn’t know that Frazier wasn’t involved.
Molina was pressured to sign a statement about his membership in a veterans organization that was considered to be “subversive.” Have you read Molina’s testimony?
Who told you that Molina was pressured to sign a false confession?
GREG PARKER SAID:
As of right now, Jean, do you, or do you not believe that the DA’s office and the DPD’s disgraceful record has any bearing on the Oswald case?
Unless you say you DO believe it had a bearing, then my claim that you believe it DOES NOT have any bearing, was quite correct. You are simply arguing from both sides of your mouth (again).
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
Bad reasoning, Greg. Neither alternative is correct. It had no bearing THAT I KNOW OF. Why don’t you enlighten me, as I asked? What are you accusing Wade of doing, specifically?
Speaking of “arguing from both sides of your mouth,” please don’t tell me you can’t answer this because you need editing tools or more than 500 words.
GREG PARKER SAID:
“That you know of”. Nice dodge.
Let’s get real. The honest answer from you would be “it had no bearing that I will ever admit to publicly”.
This is not about Wade per se. It is about a technique used by the police, Wade’s office, the FBI and USSS among others.
You know… the technique which is actually part of the name of the paper [linked here].
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
Very poor response. What’s your excuse for not explaining what bearing it had? Because you can’t and don’t want to admit it?
JEAN DAVISON LATER SAID:
Greg [Parker],
Oswald didn’t check out at the door, he was out of there before the building was sealed off. We know this from knowing the approximate times he directed a reporter to a phone on his way out, arrived at Beckley, etc.
CE 1381 (signed statements from every other employee) shows that no one still in the building was allowed to leave right away. E.g., Georgia Hendrix said she left about 2:20 p.m. after being checked out by the police. All these witnesses answered the same questions, including “did you see Oswald at the time of the shooting?”.
When you say, “Out front with Bill Shelley. Went to second floor to buy coke. Ate lunch on first floor…” you’ve got it backwards. Both in Fritz’s notes and Bookhout’s report, the sequence is that he had lunch on the 1st floor, THEN “out front” with Shelley.
Revill said he got the Elsbeth address from the cops who arrested Oswald and I see no reason to doubt it:
QUOTE:
Mr. RANKIN. And the words 605 Elsbeth Street, was that given by you?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; this is the address we were given or I was given by some of the officers involved in the arrest.
Mr. RANKIN. Who gave that to you?
Mr. REVILL. I believe Detective Carroll, Carroll or Detective Taylor, they were both there.
Mr. RANKIN. And was that at the time you made this out that you were given that information?
Mr. REVILL. Shortly before I made this out.
GREG PARKER SAID:
Do you have any explanation, by the way, for the first names being around the wrong way around – or for the address that is listed?
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
The “605” was surely from his library card, which had the number 5 written over the correct one. Oswald had the card on him when he was arrested.
I suspect the first names were reversed because in that era the name “Lee” was a very common middle name in the South — e.g., southerners Tommy Lee Jones and Jerry Lee Lewis. One of Robert Oswald’s two middle names was “Lee.” Because of that, imo, “Lee Harvey” would’ve sounded strange to many Texans, unlike Harvey Lee. Revill’s list isn’t the only record in which these two names were reversed. People make mistakes.
JEAN DAVISON LATER SAID:
The police first checked out Oswald’s current known addresses in Irving and Oak Cliff instead of rushing to the one on his library card, which listed a previous employer and was therefore older.
If you’ll search the Mary Ferrell archive you’ll find quite a few examples of the name written as “Harvey Lee,” including a translation of a Russian document. I’m sure none of these people ever saw Oswald’s library card.
GREG PARKER SAID:
Why do you suppose those standing on the steps would be asked if they had seen Oswald at the time of the shooting unless he stated that’s where he was?
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
What? Every TSBD employee was asked that question, Greg, including those who were outside — even Givens, who was several blocks away. If the WC hadn’t asked that question of every worker, wouldn’t you be giving them a hard time for that, instead? (I can hear it now, someone saying, “They didn’t ask that question because they didn’t want to know.”)
Oswald is on film saying he was inside the building “at the time.” [See video below.] No matter how anyone wants to spin it, the front steps are not inside the building and never will be. Who needs to identify PM to know it wasn’t Oswald? He said so himself!
GREG PARKER SAID:
But the fact is, no one saw ANYONE in that spot. Yet there quite obviously IS someone in that spot.
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
You don’t know who anyone saw in that spot fifty-odd years before someone dreamed up “prayer man” and thought it mattered.
GREG PARKER SAID:
And it remains a fact that it could only be Lee Harvey Oswald by a process of elimination plus general appearance.
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
The problem with a “process of elimination” has always been the difficulty of being certain that all possibilities have been eliminated. The number of people your theory requires to have lied and participated in a frame-up is too great to be anywhere near plausible. Even Oswald doesn’t agree with you.
VANESSA SAID:
Jean,
There were 13 TSBD employees on the steps. In their WC testimony, they identified other groups of employees on the steps. People standing in front of, behind them and next to them. All TSBD employees.
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
Vanessa,
From their answers, it's clear that the TSBD employees were asked something like, “Where were you when the shots were fired and who were you with?” They clearly weren’t asked, “Name or mention everyone around you,” because some mentioned only one or two people standing with them.
VANESSA SAID:
But they all failed to identify one person. They all failed to identify that there was even a person standing in the PM position.
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
You’re making a faulty assumption. There was no “PM position” in 1964. There was no reason to mention that particular spot or identify that particular person.
VANESSA SAID:
Not one of them mentioned a stranger on the steps.
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
No reason to. Strangers outside the building couldn’t be the 6th floor sniper, so who cared if they were there? The workers were asked only if they saw any strangers INSIDE the building.
VANESSA SAID:
They all failed to see and all failed to mention one man and that man was PM.
Yet, PM is there – visible in 2 films.
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
You don’t know what they “failed to see” because there was no reason to focus on that particular person before someone dreamed up PM many years later. There was absolutely no reason to ask “Who was standing in that corner?”
Oswald said he was inside, Vanessa. Fritz’s note said “out front with Shelley,” but as Bookhout’s report noted, this was where Oswald claimed he was after the lunchroom encounter, after the shots were fired.
Plus, you’ve got all those people lying to help frame an innocent man and never letting that secret slip out ever. This is NOT plausible. Even Oswald didn’t claim he was on the steps, when he had ample opportunity. That ought to tell you something.
VANESSA SAID:
Jean,
There is a serious problem with your interpretation of Fritz’s notes.
If Oswald was ‘out front with Shelley’ AFTER the shots were fired, then it appears that Fritz has not noted where Oswald was AT THE TIME the shots were fired. Wasn’t that the single most important question to be answered by Oswald?
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
No, his notes say:
“claims 2nd floor Coke when
off came in
to 1st floor had lunch
out with Bill Shelley in front”
Are you ignoring that this says Oswald mentioned the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter that supposedly never happened? That it mentions lunch on the 1st floor and then and only then, “out front” with Shelley?
Fritz’s written report says the same thing more clearly — Oswald claimed he was on the first floor having lunch when the shooting occurred and that the policeman had stopped him on the 2nd floor. FBI reports give the same chronology.
VANESSA SAID:
13 TSBD employees on the steps and they all failed to identify the same person and all failed to identify that there was even someone standing in the PM spot. That is a very unlikely coincidence.
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
You’re not getting it, Vanessa. Nobody cared or made note of who was standing “in the PM spot.” They had no reason to. The object of CE 1381 wasn’t to locate exactly where everyone was standing. That didn’t matter. The object was to find out who was WITH someone else (and thus had an alibi) and more important, whether anyone saw Oswald at the time of the shooting.
The person in what is now called the “PM position” may’ve been one of the named workers, male or female, or someone unknown. Nobody had reason to remember who it was, even though he/she was probably seen at the time. It wasn’t important.
You say that Oswald “consistently placed himself on the 1st floor…” But it was not just “on the 1st floor”, it was in the 1st floor LUNCHROOM—the “domino room”—at the back of the building.
VANESSA SAID:
For the sake of argument, let’s say that no-one in front of PM saw him because they had their backs to him (except for all those coming back up the steps, of course). Then that brings us back to the person standing to PM’s left who even appears to be looking right at him in Wiegman.
Buell Wesley Frazier said he was ‘terrified’ to speak in public for 50 years because ‘if’ there were people behind it, then he didn’t want his family harmed. He also said Fritz threatened him to get him to sign a false confession.
Do you really think BWF was terrified for 50 years because there was a vague possibility that more people could be involved?
Or is it more likely he was terrified because he knew Oswald was not the assassin because Oswald was standing right in front of him when the shots went off.
All the PM evidence...puts Oswald on the 1st floor at the time of the shots (Bookhout, Holmes, Curry, DMN, NYT etc). The only question mark is whether he was in the 1st floor vestibule or coming out of the door when he had the encounter with Truly and Baker.
No one ‘dreamed up’ PM. He has been standing in that spot in the films for 50 years. Clearly visible to all those walking back into the TSBD. Why didn’t ANYONE see him that day?
The WC testimony of the TSBD employees accounts for the 13 people we see on the steps – all but one.
Every other TSBD employee is accounted for – except for one.
And that one employee, Oswald, consistently placed himself on the 1st floor or on the TSBD steps over a number of reports (including Fritz’s).
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
Maybe in some alternate universe Oswald claimed he was on the steps, but not in this one. (“Were you in the building at the time?” “Since I work in that building, yes sir.”)
There’s no evidence whatsoever that Frazier saw Oswald in the “PM position” and lied about it from day one, thus helping frame an innocent man. He has made himself available to researchers more than many other witnesses and he has always defended Oswald and said he doubted his guilt. Some thanks he gets! Apparently some CTs think they can accuse anyone of anything, no evidence needed, just suspicion. What rights do they have? Apparently, none.
JOHN McADAMS SAID:
When did Oswald ever place himself on the steps?
In fact, to reporters, he insisted he was “in the building” because “I work in that building.”
GREG PARKER SAID:
No. You’re not getting it, Jean.
The joint Hosty/Bookhout report, written while the patsy was still breathing, states:
“Oswald stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and he claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunchroom; however, he went to the second floor where the Coca-Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca-Cola for his lunch. Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed this building.”
After the patsy was killed, Bookhout wrote his solo report changing that chronology. Fritz cribbed his notes from Bookhout. This was amply demonstrated by [Sean] Murphy, who highlighted the similarities in the two.
VANESSA SAID:
Jean,
All of the TSBD workers were interviewed by the FBI and gave statements about where they were at the time of the shooting. Not one of them placed themselves in the PM position. So it cannot have been any other TSBD employee – except one.
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
No, that’s false, since very few of the workers placed themselves in ANY position other than the nonspecific “I was on the front steps” or “on the top step,” neither of which rules out your “PM position.”
VANESSA SAID:
Now, Jean, we have been back and forth over the wording of Fritz’s notes and as you know, Fritz was splitting his sentences over a number of lines. They can be interpreted a couple of ways.
“claims 2nd floor Coke when
off came in
to 1st floor had lunch
out with Bill Shelley in front”
Your reading of these lines cuts a sentence in half and doesn’t make sense. “claims 2nd floor Coke when off came in” actually is part of the next line “to 1st floor”.
Otherwise you are splitting up the words “in” and “to”, resulting in a nonsensical statement on the next line, “to 1st floor had lunch”.
The grammatically correct reading of those lines is “claims 2nd floor Coke when off came in to 1st floor”.
Meaning: (Oswald) claims he had a coke from the 2nd floor when the officer came in to the 1st floor.
So as Baker came into the 1st floor of the building, Oswald was standing there with a coke. The coke machine was in the 2nd floor lunchroom. And if we look at the Darnell film, PM appears to be holding a coke bottle.
How do you justify breaking up ‘in’ and ‘to’ in these lines and still keep any meaning?
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
That’s how Fritz split the sentence, not me. You need to stop interpreting his notes like they’re tea leaves and look at Fritz’s OWN explanation in his written report and in his testimony. He said that Oswald was on the second floor when the officer came in, which is what Baker and Truly said also. All of them lying dogs, I suppose?
VANESSA SAID:
All I have to do is show that Oswald consistently said he was on the 1st floor and WC defenders have a problem. So are you agreeing Oswald said he was on the 1st floor?
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
According to witnesses, he said he was in the domino room at the rear of the first floor, not at the front of the building or outside.
VANESSA SAID:
[Harry] Holmes said Oswald claimed he was in the 1st floor vestibule – that is inside the building. I’m not sure why you keep disputing this point.
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
I dispute it because Holmes didn’t say anything about a vestibule in his 12/63 written report, only in his testimony the following April.
In his 12/63 report, he said that Oswald claimed to be on an upper floor when the shooting occurred. By April, his memory was obviously different....
QUOTE:
Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.
Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?
Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part. [The 2nd floor lunchroom’s “vestibule” has “two sets of doors”.]
Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?
Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about a Coca-Cola or anything like that, if you remember?
Mr. HOLMES. Seems like he said he was drinking a Coca-Cola, standing there by the Coca-Cola machine drinking a Coca-Cola.
UNQUOTE
Is PM standing by a Coke machine? No, and I think Belin asked this because he realized that Holmes’ memory was muddled.
Holmes also contradicted several other witnesses who said that Oswald flatly denied ever going to Mexico City. Holmes said Oswald admitted it.
QUOTE:
Mr. BELIN. This wasn’t reported in your interview in the memorandum that you wrote?
Mr. HOLMES. No.
Mr. BELIN. Is this something that you think you might have picked up from just reading the papers, or is this something you remember hearing?
Mr. HOLMES. That is what he said in there.
UNQUOTE
People accept what they “remember” as being accurate even when it’s malarkey.
VANESSA SAID:
Do you have anything at all to say about BWF saying he was threatened by Fritz to sign a false confession? Or Joe Molina saying he was threatened by the DPD to confess to being involved in the assassination?
The only 2 men who said they were threatened that weekend by the DPD to confess to involvement in the assassination and both of them were standing on the TSBD steps.
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
This suggests to me that the DPD was “grilling” the only two potential accomplices they could find: Frazier, who drove Oswald to work, and Molina, someone suspected of sharing his leftwing political views. (Molina got a raw deal when he was later fired. Too bad he didn’t sue for wrongful termination.)
VANESSA SAID:
Jean,
There are quite detailed descriptions from those on the steps as to who was standing next to them and who else was out there and that has been matched with their positions in the films and their WC testimony. Buell Frazier is standing where he said he was in his WC testimony and where everyone else said he was standing. Tell me Jean, do you think that is Frazier on the steps or not?
Then there is Billy Lovelady. He actually identified himself in Altgens 6 to the FBI.
We can work through each TSBD employee on the steps this way if you want to. Bart Kamp and others have already done great work on this. No-one placed themselves in the PM position.
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
Vanessa,
There’s no way I can believe that if Oswald had been outside and a reporter asked him, “Were you in the building at the time?”, Oswald wouldn’t have responded, “No! I was outside watching the motorcade” or “No, I was on the front steps with some guys I work with”. Oswald talked to his wife, mother, brother, a Dallas lawyer and the media. Nada about being outside the building when the shots were fired.
VANESSA SAID:
I’m happy to take Fritz’s WC testimony as confirmation of his notes. He said that Oswald said he had lunch with the other employees and saw the excitement. The other employees were outside on the steps and Oswald couldn’t have seen anything from the 2nd floor lunch room as it had no windows. It’s reasonable to conclude that Oswald was outside on the steps with the other employees.
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
No. You’re assuming he would’ve had to be outside in order to see “excitement,” but Fritz’s memo tells a different story:
“…I asked Oswald where he was when the police officer stopped him. He said he was on the second floor drinking a coca cola when the officer came in. I asked him why he left the building, and he said there was so much excitement he did not think there would be any more work done that day...”
Last paragraph here:
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946
He “left the building” because there was excitement — like a policeman with pistol drawn rushing into the building, maybe?
VANESSA SAID:
As for Baker, I’m still waiting for you to explain why you prefer his WC testimony (4 months after the event) to his 1st day affidavit or the other 3 versions he gave of his meeting with Oswald.
Oswald’s accounts of being on the 1st floor are corroborated by him identifying 3 men that he could not have seen if he was in the sniper’s nest. These 3 men he could have only seen if he was in fact outside or in the vestibule minutes before the shooting – Shelley, Jarman and Norman.
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
Problem for you, Vanessa. Oswald didn’t claim he saw Jarman or Norman outside and they weren’t outside at the time of the shooting.
VANESSA SAID:
Grilling? We have been discussing the DPD’s woeful record under DA Wade of faking evidence and coercing witnesses – which you have deplored. You asked for any evidence that it happened in Oswald’s case and we have 2 witnesses who said they were threatened and now you are saying that it is a harmless part of the ‘grilling’ they received??
A ‘grilling’ would be presenting Frazier and Molina with some evidence against them and asking some tough questions. Frazier was 19. Do you consider attempting to force a 19 year old (who did not have a lawyer present) to sign a confession of conspiracy to kill the President a legitimate part of the interrogation process?
Molina’s house was raided by the police at 2.00am that weekend and he was threatened to confess to being involved in a conspiracy with Oswald before any evidence was actually gathered from his house.
Jean, are you really saying you are comfortable with these threats from the DPD in these circumstances?
They are the perfect example of the DPD’s MO under Wade where coercion took the place of genuine police work.
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
Molina asked to be allowed to testify because he wanted to complain about his unfair treatment by Curry and the DPD. I see nothing about being threatened in his testimony, so where does this claim come from?
Frazier also said nothing about a “threat” for about 50 years, and then this story appeared:
QUOTE
Dallas police Capt. Will Fritz, who was in charge of the homicide department, came into the room with a typed statement. He handed Frazier a pen and demanded he sign it. It was a confession. Frazier refused.
“This was ridiculous,” he said. “Captain Fritz got very red-faced, and he put up his hand to hit me and I put my arm up to block. I told him we’d have a hell of a fight and I would get some good licks in on him. Then he stormed out the door.”
UNQUOTE
[Source:]
http://www.richmond.com/news/special-report/jfk
Really?? You believe that?? I don’t. Not because I think Fritz or the DPD were saints. It’s just a ridiculous story, imo, and tales told so many years after the fact are always questionable.
================================
ANOTHER
"PRAYER MAN"
ADDENDUM....
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I was looking at Buell Wesley Frazier's Facebook page on January 25, 2022, when I noticed the following post written by Mr. Frazier in March of 2021 concerning the topic of "Prayer Man":
"To answer the question about Prayer Man: I have been looking at this all day, and I can tell you this: I 100% have no idea who that person is. I can also tell you 100% that is not Lee Harvey Oswald. First, Lee was not out there. I know that to be true. Second, for anyone who thinks Prayer Man is Lee, the individual has a much larger frame than Lee." -- Buell Wesley Frazier; March 28, 2021
BELOW ABOUT LEE OSWALD'S
WHEREABOUTS AT 12:30 PM
ON NOVEMBER 22, 1963:
