BEN HOLMES SAID:
Were the prosectors prevented from examining JFK's clothing?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Only because the clothing wasn't available at Bethesda (as far as I recall).
How could they examine something that wasn't in their possession, Ben?
GARRY PUFFER SAID:
I believe you are wrong, David. The prosectors asked to see the clothing and were told they didn't need to see it.
Even if the clothing was not in Bethesda when they asked, it could have (and should have) been provided. They flew in a piece of bone, for heaven's sake, they certainly could have flown in the clothing.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Okay, Garry. You might be correct on this point about the clothing. I'm just not sure at the moment. (I'm relying on my memory right now.) And that's also why I added "as far as I recall" in my last post on that topic.
But, yes, the autopsy doctors should have been able to inspect JFK's clothing.
BEN HOLMES SAID:
"Opinions" given that have never had *ANYTHING* citable as a source, and that contradict the KNOWN facts... are lies -- no matter *how* you want to spin it.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I love how the strange mind of the "JFK CTer" works....
Virtually EVERY mistake (tiny or big) is a "lie" in Ben Holmes' world.
He actually thinks I deliberately "lied" (with intent to deceive, I would surmise; right, Ben?) when I said this a little while ago....
"Only because the clothing wasn't available at Bethesda (as far as I recall). How could they examine something that wasn't in their possession, Ben?" -- DVP
I made the above remark based on my memory of the events at Bethesda, and because I had thought the clothing of JFK was NOT available to the autopsists during the autopsy on the night of 11/22/63. I thought it was still in Dallas, where his clothes had been cut off him by the doctors at Parkland.
Therefore, if I later am reminded that the clothing WAS available to Humes and Company on the night of 11/22/63, I was merely mistaken (i.e., wrong about something).
But according to Holmes, it can't be anything OTHER than a deliberate lie---with intent to DECEIVE somebody.
The conspiracy theorist's mind is a remarkable thing. But I'm glad I don't have one in my head. (Yuck. Who'd want one of those?)
DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:
Re: The Clothing....
From Dr. Humes' 1996 ARRB testimony....
QUESTION -- Dr. Humes, did you request at any time during the autopsy to see the clothing which President Kennedy had been wearing at the time of the assassination?
DR. HUMES -- No, I didn't. I should have, probably, but didn't.
QUESTION -- Do you know where the clothing was during the--
DR. HUMES -- No, I don't. I did see the clothing ultimately in the Archives, but I didn't know where it was.
====================================
And here's what Dr. Boswell told the ARRB....
QUESTION -- Did you hear anyone at any point during the autopsy request to examine the clothing that President Kennedy was wearing at the time he was shot?
DR. BOSWELL -- We all discussed the clothing. It was made--I guess we asked where the clothing was--certainly remember Pierre [Finck] asking about the clothing. But we didn't know where the--we knew that he had been in the hospital. He had arrived in our hospital in sheets, so we assumed that either the clothing was down there or was in transit, and we were not concerned about it at that point. But the clothing became available to us; it may have been several days or weeks later.
[...]
QUESTION -- Do you recall Dr. Finck asking to examine the clothing during the autopsy?
DR. BOSWELL -- Not specifically.
QUESTION -- So as best you recall, there was a discussion of the clothing, but not a request to see the clothing. Would that be fair?
DR. BOSWELL -- Right.
====================================
And Dr. Finck....
QUESTION -- During the course of the autopsy of President Kennedy, did you examine the clothing that he was wearing at the time that he was shot?
DR. FINCK -- No.
QUESTION -- During the course of the autopsy, did you or any other doctor ask to see the clothing President Kennedy was wearing?
DR. FINCK -- I asked to see the clothing.
QUESTION -- What were you told?
DR. FINCK -- That it was not available.
QUESTION -- Were you told why it was not available?
DR. FINCK -- No.
QUESTION -- Do you know where the clothing was?
DR. FINCK -- No.
====================================
So, did [Secret Service agent] William Greer [who testified that he was the person who took physical possession of JFK's clothing at Parkland Hospital in Dallas; see 2 H 125] have the clothing with him at Bethesda? He doesn't say in his Warren Commission testimony.
But there's certainly nothing in the above testimony of any of the three autopsy doctors (Humes, Boswell, or Finck) that would indicate JFK's clothing was available for inspection and examination during the autopsy at Bethesda on the night of November 22nd.
So, I'm wondering if this post I made earlier just might be a true statement after all:
"Only because the clothing wasn't available at Bethesda (as far as I recall). How could they examine something that wasn't in their possession, Ben?" -- DVP
BEN HOLMES SAID:
I see you've decided to try to mislead people again... But of course, you're lying.
[...]
Tell us Davey ... at what point did Greer stash the clothes he had?
[...]
Nothing they [the autopsy doctors] said implies that the clothing was not there, only that they were not allowed to examine it.
[...]
The available evidence shows that Greer had the clothing, HE WAS PHYSICALLY PRESENT AT BETHESDA, therefore the clothing was as well.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I'm just trying to find out what the three autopsy doctors were aware of. Their testimony (all three of them) seems to suggest that they thought the clothing was NOT right there on the premises at Bethesda (and that they were TOLD it was "not available").
It could have just been a lack of good communication. Greer was RIGHT THERE, but did HE hear Finck (or the other doctors) ask about the clothing? If not, then that could be the answer---lack of communication.
Plus, do you think Greer was part of some plot to PREVENT the doctors from examining the clothes? If so, tell us why, Ben?
GARRY PUFFER SAID:
You avoided explaining this quote from Dr. Finck: "One officer who outranked me told me that my request [to examine the President's clothing] was only of academic interest."
Dr. Finck asks to see the clothes and is told he can't, with the above quote as an explanation, and you claim that this was all due to a lack of good communication?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Why not a lack of communication, Garry? That's impossible, is it? But why?
And why would anybody NOT want the doctors to look at the clothes anyway? We've all seen the clothing now, and there's certainly nothing to indicate any "conspiracy" in the clothes. One hole in the coat, one in the shirt, and the cuts in the tie. All consistent with ONE bullet entering from behind and exiting the throat.
BEN HOLMES SAID:
They were refused permission to examine the clothing.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Nonsense.
Prove it.
BEN HOLMES SAID:
Tell us Davey -- if you *KNOW* you've not read the relevant evidence, why would you claim it's "nonsense"?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Because it makes no sense for the autopsists to be "denied" access to the clothes.
Does it make sense to you for that to have happened? If so, what for?
DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:
Ben, is this the Finck memo you referred to (ARRB MD28)?
If so, I couldn't find the passage you quoted in there regarding the clothes. Which of the 24 pages is it on? Thanks.
39 MINUTES LATER, DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Here it is. [I found it myself.] Page 22....
http://MaryFerrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=609#relPageId=22
BEN HOLMES SAID:
How long does it take you to read it and realize you lied when you labeled it "nonsense"?
When are you going to retract your lie?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Oh, I didn't have much doubt that Colonel Finck said what you said he said, Ben. (You wouldn't be so bold and daring as to put quote marks around a supposed Finck quote if he had never uttered a word of it---would you, Ben?)
Anyway, I never much doubted Finck SAID it. But, yes, it's still "nonsense". It makes no sense to deny Finck access to something that was right there in the morgue (if it was in the morgue).
But, as usual, this is a total non-issue that CTers can go nowhere with --- because we know what the clothes show.
Can you turn the clothes of JFK into some kind of proof of "conspiracy", Ben? I'd like to see you try.
It's also interesting to note that if the autopsy surgeons HAD examined the President's clothing on the night of November 22, they very likely would have discovered virtual proof that the wound in JFK's throat was the EXIT wound for the bullet that entered the President's upper back (via the fibers in the front of JFK's shirt, which were pointing OUTWARD). Here's what Vince Bugliosi says about it in his book....
"In an effort to resolve where the bullet went, Dr. Finck asked to examine the president's clothing to correlate it with the wounds and found it "most unfortunate" that the clothing was not available. It had been taken into custody at Parkland Hospital by the Secret Service. Asked in 1996 if it would be standard practice to have the clothing available for inspection, Dr. Boswell stated, "Well, under normal circumstances, but these were not normal circumstances."
Not seen by the three pathologists until they testified to the Warren Commission in 1964, the president's clothing would have confirmed that the bullet had exited at the throat. In a 1965 memorandum describing his examination of the clothing, Finck wrote that "immediately below the upper button of the front [of the president's shirt] is a bullet hole perforating both flaps of the shirt, right and left. There is dry blood on the margins of both holes. The innermost hole reveals fibers directed outward, which indicates an exit perforation. The outermost hole also shows this outward orientation of the bloody shirt fibers, but to a lesser extent."
In the FBI's laboratory examination of the hole in the shirt shortly after the assassination, investigators too found that the "fibers of the cloth" were "protruding outward, "characteristic of an exit hole for a projectile, but did not find any bullet metal in the fabric surrounding the hole.
Unfortunately, the autopsy pathologists wouldn't learn of all the facts about the clothing until after the autopsy had been completed." -- Vincent Bugliosi; Pages 400-401 of "Reclaiming History"
BEN HOLMES SAID:
Now tell everyone why you claim something you've never read is "nonsense".
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
As I said, I never doubted Finck said what he said. I'm saying the whole NOTION of "denying" the autopsy doctors access to the clothing is "nonsense". And I think it is nonsense. And I doubt it ever happened (the "denying access" part, I mean, regardless of what Dr. Finck said in his 1965 memo).
If you want to call me a liar for feeling this way, then be my guest. You haven't yet reached triple digits in your "You're a liar, Davey" posts today, Ben, so why not add one more right now. Okay?
BEN HOLMES SAID:
It's also interesting to note that if the autopsy surgeons HAD been given permission to examine the clothing on the night of November 22, they very likely would have discovered virtual proof that the wound in JFK's back was a fradulent one, since there was no hole in the jacket or shirt.
See how easy that was, Davey?
I DEFY you to refute it.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
And yet I am called a liar continuously by this man named Holmes. Amazing.
The shirt has a bullet hole of entry in it. And the jacket has a bullet hole of entry in it. And yet Holmes wants to pretend those holes were NEVER THERE at all at the time of the autopsy.
Let me repeat this silliness for the upper deck patrons again (just for the laughs)....
"It's also interesting to note that if the autopsy surgeons HAD been given permission to examine the clothing on the night of November 22, they very likely would have discovered virtual proof that the wound in JFK's back was a fradulent one, since there was no hole in the jacket or shirt." -- B. Holmes
No, folks, you're not dreaming----Holmes actually said that.
Somebody call the Fantasy Police!
Such fantasies full of utter tommyrot refute themselves, Holmes. I don't need to refute it. That would be akin to wasting my time trying to refute that I was born.
But to take this detour into goofiness just a little further....
Is it your contention that Drs. Humes, Finck, or Boswell fired a bullet into the dead corpse of JFK at the autopsy? Is that how the bullet hole got in his upper back? Or maybe somebody just "drew in" a bullet hole on the back-wound photo to make it look like Kennedy was shot in the back? Is that it?
Dazzle me with your brilliant theory about the back wound, Ben. We're all hanging on every word.
BEN HOLMES SAID:
How many people knew Greer had brought the clothes to Bethesda? Not many... But it's clear in the evidence.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
What makes you so sure that William Greer took the clothes to Bethesda with him?
Why couldn't Greer have given the clothing to someone else (another Secret Service agent perhaps?) while aboard Air Force One on the flight from Dallas to Washington?
Also --- We know that Greer himself was the driver of the gray Navy ambulance that transported JFK's body from Andrews Air Force Base to Bethesda on November 22. And I've got all the live TV footage that shows the whole scene at Andrews, and I sure don't see Greer with any bags of clothing. Do you? What do you think he did with those bags of clothing before we see him get into the driver's seat of the Navy ambulance in this television footage, Ben?....
Therefore, I suggest that it's quite possible (even probable) that Bill Greer gave the clothing to someone else on Air Force One....or possibly gave the clothes to someone else before leaving Parkland Hospital....and, therefore, Greer might not have transported JFK's clothing to Bethesda Naval Hospital on 11/22/63.
I can't prove it, no. But after looking again at the TV footage, which clearly shows Greer with nothing in his hands as he enters the Navy ambulance (although it's a bit difficult to tell, because Greer is blocked partially from view during some of the TV coverage, but it's fairly clear to me that Greer isn't carrying anything of any substantial size in his hands, such as some paper bags filled with JFK's clothing), I think it's possible the clothes did not make it to Bethesda in the possession of Secret Service agent William R. Greer.
BEN HOLMES SAID:
You *STILL* haven't read Greer's testimony???
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Sure I've read Greer's testimony, Ben. He says he took possession of the clothing at Parkland Hospital in Dallas. The clothes were placed in "two shopping bags" (per Greer's testimony). But Greer says nothing about transporting those "two shopping bags" full of clothes to BETHESDA that night.
And, as we can see in the CBS-TV coverage, Greer certainly isn't carrying "two shopping bags" in his hands when he gets into that ambulance at Andrews AFB. So he must have (at the very least) given the clothes to somebody ELSE to transport to either Bethesda or elsewhere. Or, as I suggested, he handed the clothes off to somebody on the airplane--or possibly even at Parkland before he drove to Love Field.
BEN HOLMES SAID:
You wouldn't be lying about Greer's possession of the clothing if you *had* read Greer's testimony.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Okay, Ben, show me where in Greer's Warren Commission testimony he says he took the "two shopping bags" of clothing into the Bethesda Naval Center in Maryland on the night of November 22, 1963. Here again is Greer's testimony page. Have at it....
http://jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/greer.htm
BEN HOLMES SAID:
Nope.
It's not *MY* responsibility to prove *YOUR* claims.
That's *YOUR* problem.
Getting desperate, aren't you?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Just as I thought. Holmes cannot find anywhere in Greer's testimony where Greer said he physically carried JFK's clothes into Bethesda on November 22.
And, as I said before, it's pretty clear that Greer did not HIMSELF have the clothes WITH HIM in the ambulance on the way to Bethesda. That fact is clear from the TV footage (which Holmes apparently totally ignored).
I'm now back to believing (with about 90% certainty) that the clothing of JFK was never in the Bethesda morgue on 11/22/63.
Yes, I could definitely be wrong about that belief. But after probing into this "clothing" matter today and yesterday, I can't find any proof that the clothing was actually inside the Bethesda Naval Hospital during the time when President Kennedy's autopsy was taking place.
If anyone has some information or testimony to indicate the clothes DID make it to Bethesda, please chime in.
BEN HOLMES SAID:
A quick online search reveals the statement [from] an existing tape recording of Greer where he claimed he was "in the OPERATING ROOM at Parkland" [emphasis added] and stated that JFK's clothing "were in my custody from Parkland to Washington".
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
But we absolutely KNOW that Greer does not have the clothing in his own possession when he enters the Navy ambulance at Andrews AFB.
Plus, the only logical reason for the clothing to make a trip to Bethesda in the first place would be to make the clothes available to the autopsy doctors. Why ELSE take them out to Bethesda? Just to sit in a drawer someplace while the autopsy was going on?
I suppose an argument could be made that Greer would want to take the clothes to Bethesda (or WHEREVER he went) in order to minimize the chain of custody for the clothing. But he certainly must have handed them off to somebody else at Andrews AFB, because he does not have them in his possession as he DRIVES THE AMBULANCE to Bethesda (and then he drives the ambulance to the White House at 4:30 AM too).
So, Ben, to whom did Bill Greer give the clothes at Andrews AFB? Any idea?
I also find it a bit humorous to note that the "online search" that Ben Holmes talked about above turned up this article written by conspiracy theorist Vince Palamara, in which Palamara was highlighting some statements made by William Greer in an audio recording.
And it's pretty clear from the article that Palamara's highlighted quotes from Greer are mostly things that Palamara himself thinks are inaccurate statements made by Greer, which is why Palamara emphasized the words "operating room" in one of Greer's quotes. Palamara was highlighting the fact that Greer was WRONG when he said "operating room at Parkland", because Greer had actually taken possession of JFK's clothing in the "Trauma Room" (or "Emergency Room") of Parkland Memorial Hospital.
So perhaps even CTer Vincent Palamara is in doubt about whether President Kennedy's clothing was "in my [William Greer's] custody from Parkland to Washington". ~shrug~
GARRY PUFFER SAID:
How silly can you get, David? You are saying that even though the clothes were in Washington and the prosectors asked for them, it would have been impossible to call someone and have the clothes brought to the autopsy?
Pardon me, but that is just stupid. Plus not accounting for the "academic interest" comment.
Plus totally ignoring the order to not dissect the throat wound.
The autopsy WAS interfered with, and James Humes lied about it. Why you insist that there was no interference is a puzzle to me.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
So, not having the clothes there at the morgue equals "interference"??
Silly. And untrue.
JFK's autopsy was not a "normal" autopsy. I think we can all agree on that. Things that normally WOULD (or at least, might) have been done at a "normal" autopsy were not done at the Kennedy autopsy.
And it's my understanding and belief that the request not to dissect/(mutilate) JFK's neck came directly from the Kennedy family---and not some sinister "military" figure who was barking orders, which is what we see portrayed in Oliver Stone's fictional film.
The Kennedy REQUEST that the neck not be dissected (i.e., torn open) might very well be classified as "interference" by many people (and I couldn't argue with that terminology either), but it evidently was NOT considered to be "interference" in the eyes of Dr. Humes (per his 1991 JAMA interview).
If you want to call Humes a liar---go ahead. But I'll hold back just a touch before I use the dreaded L-word when it comes to James Joseph Humes. (YMMV.)
BEN HOLMES SAID:
Why are you RUNNING as fast as you can from the EARLIEST evidence on this matter? Both the Blumberg memo and Greer's testimony make it pretty clear that the clothing was there, and that they were *ORDERED* not to examine it.
[...]
*HE* [William Greer] says he kept the clothing -- *HE* says they were in his possession from Parkland to Washington.
You're calling a Secret Service Agent a liar. Why are you doing that, Davey?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Greer's testimony most definitely does NOT indicate that he took the clothing to Bethesda. No way does it make that clear--at all. And I pointed that out to you at least once (maybe twice) yesterday, but you still make the same claim now. Why, Ben?
Read Greer's testimony again and paste in the part where he confirms he took the "two shopping bags" of clothing to BETHESDA. Where does it say that?
Ben apparently thinks the following Greer testimony is the PROOF....
"I had this, his clothing, I kept it in my hand at all times, all the time."
-- William R. Greer
But it's obvious that Greer did not LITERALLY keep the clothes in his "hand at all times" all the way to Bethesda. Right, Ben?
So it's really Ben, not me, who wants to call Bill Greer a liar. Don't you, Ben? (Remember that CBS footage---Greer's hands are empty.)
Try again, Benji. Maybe Palamara can help you out by smearing Greer some more.
BEN HOLMES SAID:
What constitutes "interference" is that they were ORDERED not to examine the clothing...
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Total bull. That's merely your interpretation of these words written by Dr. Pierre Finck -- "I was denied the opportunity to examine the clothing of Kennedy".
And those words do NOT mean the same thing as being "ORDERED not to examine the clothing". That's YOUR own conspiracy-slanted interpretation of Finck's words and nothing more than that.
As for the officer who told Finck the clothes were only of "academic interest" -- that comment was simply the OPINION of that particular officer. But that comment in no way indicates that the clothes were right there FOR Colonel Finck to examine at Bethesda on the night of the autopsy. Again, you're adding a layer of interpretation to those words that does not necessarily apply at all.
Another interpretation (which is more reasonable and believable than the sinister and conspiratorial one offered up by the super-clown named Ben Holmes) is this one:
The officer who said those things to Colonel Finck meant that if the clothing HAD been available to examine at Bethesda, the information gleaned from the clothes would have been merely "academic" in nature.
Colonel Finck's opinion as to the importance of examining the clothing might very well have been a different one, however. (And no doubt was a different one.)
But that officer certainly was NOT "ordering" Finck not to examine the clothes. That's a conspiracy myth. And it's just one of dozens (maybe hundreds) of such unfounded myths that litter the landscape of the JFK case.
BEN HOLMES SAID:
Yep... open his chest and pull out all his guts... open his head and remove his brain... but don't... DON'T dissect the actual bullet wound.
Yep... it all makes sense...
ROTFLMAO!!!
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Then go blame Jackie and RFK. It was their order. Nobody else's. And you cannot possibly prove otherwise, Benny.
DAVID VON PEIN ALSO SAID:
I'll add the following information regarding the clothing. Whether it's a confirmed fact or not, I really do not know (I can't find any link to the "HSCA summary" mentioned below), but Ron Ecker, who is a conspiracy believer, said this in a post at The Education Forum in 2006:
"SS agent William Greer was given JFK's clothes in two shopping bags at Parkland. According to an HSCA summary of an interview of Greer, he directed [Secret Service agent Henry] Rybka at Andrews Air Force Base to put "the shopping bag" containing JFK's clothes in his locker at the White House."
-- Ron Ecker; June 11, 2006
DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:
Another "Clothing" Addendum....
This time we have a 2005 Internet post written by John Canal. John is addressing Cliff Varnell, a rabid conspiracy theorist, in this post:
"Cliff, help me out here. Can you tell me the source of your info, re. Greer turning over the clothing to the FBI, "upon his return to Washington"? ....[A]ccording to my notes Greer did not turn over the clothes to anyone "upon his return to DC"...at least right away. Anyway, he [Greer] told the HSCA, upon his arrival in Washington, he directed agent Rybka to put the shopping bag with JFK's clothing and effects in his locker at the White House.
That's consistent with his story that about 8:00 AM on the 23rd the White House called (woke him up) asking for JFK's St. Christopher medal. He went on to say that he dressed and went to the WH and gave the medal and wallet to Ken O'Donnell. (Doc # 1870-10099-10491)
Evidently later on Saturday, according to RIF# 180-100090-10263 (an 11-23-63 document), Greer supposedly turned over the clothing and effects to SAIC Robert Bouck.
If all that's correct, then my weird theory still would be alive. Again, maybe the source you have for Greer giving the FBI the clothing trumps the above sources which tell a different story, i.e. that he had control of the clothing during the autopsy." -- John A. Canal; October 13, 2005
----------
So, now we have at least SOME info re: an "HSCA summary" which indicates Greer gave the clothes to SS agent Rybka at Andrews, which conforms perfectly to what I've been saying (or speculating on) for days --- William Greer did not carry JFK's clothes to Bethesda on 11/22/63.
David Von Pein
September 28-30, 2015 [This forum link is no longer available.]
