DVP vs. DiEUGENIO
JIM DiEUGENIO SAID:
This evidence is almost impossible to impugn since it is made up of primary documents in the writing and typing of FBI and Secret Service agents. Plus the NARA photos.
Plus the fact that Hunt actually went to the Archives and arranged for Steve Tilley to give this stuff to him after extensive negotiations.
Hunt then brought magnifying glasses and a computer scanner to visually inspect the documents, the bullet, and the photos at very close range and under magnification. Does anyone truly believe that he could not locate Todd's initials under those circumstances?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yes, I do.
ALL of the markings that John Hunt found on Bullet CE399 from the NARA photos are very faint and quite difficult to see and discern (as illustrated by the NARA photo below). I can easily envision Todd's faint mark on that bullet being overlooked.
But the fact is that Elmer Todd HIMSELF saw his own initials on CE399. He saw them on the bullet.
Naturally, Jim DiEugenio believes that either Todd HIMSELF is a big fat liar...or Jim believes that top FBI man J. Edgar Hoover is the liar with respect to the verbiage we find in black-and-white in Commission Exhibit No. 2011.
I, myself, don't think either man lied concerning this issue. Todd's initials are there, somewhere, on Bullet CE399.
And, btw, for the fourth or fifth time I'll point out this fact:
In John Hunt's 2006 article [linked here], Hunt specifically tells us the method by which he attempted to determine whether or not Elmer Todd's initials are on CE399. Hunt said:
"The question for me became, is Todd's mark on the CE-399 bullet? To answer that question, I put together an illustration using photographs of CE-399. I was able to track the entire surface of the bullet using four of NARA's preservation photos."
Now, via the above verbiage, it's pretty clear (to me anyway) that Hunt did not use the ACTUAL BULLET ITSELF to perform his "Checking For Todd's Initials" examination. Instead, Hunt utilized four PHOTOS from the National Archives to perform that task. (All those photos can be found in full-sized versions at Mary Ferrell's website, HERE.)
And I see that Jim DiEugenio still has this falsehood in print in Part 7 of his Vincent Bugliosi book review on the CTKA.net website:
"He [John Hunt] photographed the bullet in sequential rotation."
-- J. DiEugenio; 2008
But John Hunt didn't take those NARA pictures himself. They were taken years ago by the NARA staff.
And BTW, I don't believe for a second that J. Edgar Hoover lied when he said (via CE2011) that FBI agent Bardwell D. Odum went to Parkland and showed CE399 to both Darrell Tomlinson and O.P. Wright.
When Odum was asked about the incident in 2001 or 2002 by Gary Aguilar and Josiah Thompson, Odum's memory had obviously faded to the point where he just simply could not recall showing the bullet to the two men.
But CE2011 exists, and it always will, as an official document connected to the assassination of a U.S. President. And within that document, on Page 412 of WC Volume 24, we find these words:
"On June 12, 1964, Darrell C . Tomlinson...was shown Exhibit C1 [CE399], a rifle slug, by Special Agent Bardwell D. Odum, Federal Bureau of Investigation. Tomlinson stated it appears to be the same one he found on a hospital carriage at Parkland Hospital on November 22, 1963, but he cannot positively identify the bullet as the one he found and showed to Mr. O.P. Wright."
And these words....
"On June 12, 1964, O. P. Wright...advised Special Agent Bardwell D. Odum that Exhibit C1 [CE399], a rifle slug, shown to him at the time of the interview, looks like the slug found at Parkland Hospital on November 22, 1963, which he gave to Richard Johnsen, Special Agent of the Secret Service. .... He advised he could not positively identify C1 as being the same bullet which was found as November 22, 1963."
AN ADDENDUM REGARDING ELMER TODD'S INITIALS
AND COMMISSION EXHIBIT NO. 399:
Many (or most) conspiracy theorists think that FBI agent Elmer L. Todd's initials are not on Bullet CE399.
But, surely the conspiracists don't think J. Edgar Hoover's post-assassination mindset was something akin to this (do they?):
[Simulated J. Edgar Hoover quote on:]
Well, yeah, sure, my FBI boys planted Bullet CE399 into the official record of the JFK murder investigation, and we got rid of a lot of other evidence in the case that didn't implicate our patsy named Lee Harvey Oswald, but even I (J. Edgar) have a line that I won't cross when it comes to carving a man's initials into that FAKE BULLET. That type of behavior is just going TOO far, and I won't be a party to it. A man's initials, after all, are sacred and should never be planted. Yes, I'll allow several of my FBI agents to tell the Warren Commission lie after rotten lie about CE399 and a bunch of other faked evidence connected to JFK's murder -- but even I have some principles. And putting some letters on a bullet that my agency PLANTED INTO THE OFFICIAL RECORD IN THE FIRST PLACE is just something that I won't do. God bless me.
So, my question is: why didn't J. Edgar (or somebody on the "Let's Frame Oswald And Make Sure We Cross Every T So We Won't Get Caught Framing Him" conspiracy team) engrave Elmer Lee Todd's initials into CE399?
Plus, let me add this footnote to this CE399/Elmer Todd discussion:
Jim DiEugenio in the past has suggested that FBI Agent Todd DID, indeed, carve his initials into a bullet. But Jim insists it wasn't CE399. It was a different bullet (presumably the pointy-nosed missile that Jim thinks was really found by Darrell Tomlinson at Parkland Hospital). But then this "real" stretcher bullet, per DiEugenio, was deep-sixed by Hoover and his boys at the FBI.
But it seems to me as though Jim has got a bit of a timing problem with that particular conspiracy theory -- because Elmer Todd identified his own initials on a bullet (which was, in reality, of course, Commission Exhibit 399) on June 24, 1964, which was more than SEVEN MONTHS after the assassination. [Once again, see CE2011.]
Therefore, if we're to believe Jim D., apparently the FBI retained the "real" stretcher bullet for over half-a-year AFTER they had inserted CE399 into the official record to REPLACE the "real" stretcher bullet. They must have waited until sometime after June 24th to "deep-six" that bullet which has Elmer Todd's initials on it.
Did Hoover keep the "real" stretcher bullet in his office as a souvenir for over seven months before getting rid of it? That's just plain silly.
Or, to provide Jim with an alternative made-up-from-whole-cloth cover-up theory regarding this matter:
Does Jim DiEugenio think that the "June 24, 1964" date that appears in CE2011 is a lie too?
JIM DiEUGENIO SAID:
So let me ask you, if Todd's marks were on the bullet, would John [Hunt] not have been able to see them and arrow them as easily as he did the others? Right?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
No, not necessarily. Perhaps Todd's initials are fainter than the other FBI agents' marks.
What we DO know is this:
CE2011 verifies for all time that Elmer L. Todd SAW HIS OWN INITIALS on Commission Exhibit 399 (or "C1", which is what the FBI called the bullet in June 1964, via CE2011).
And just because Bardwell Odum said he would not have forgotten something from THIRTY-SEVEN YEARS EARLIER, doesn't mean diddly.
An older person who might be having memories problems (was he? I don't know) might think he would recall an incident from 37 years in the past...but it doesn't mean he really would recall it. Your propping up Odum's 2001 comment about how he would have absolutely remembered the incident is rather funny, IMO.
Another silly part of the CTers' beliefs re: Odum, Tomlinson, and Wright is this:
According to DiEugenio, pretty much everything we find in CE2011 concerning those three guys is a lie. Therefore, I'm wondering why Hoover and his scheming FBI boys didn't go WHOLE HOG and lie some more by saying that Darrell Tomlinson and O.P. Wright COULD positively identify CE399?
Hoover only goes PART way with the lie. Why doesn't he make it CONCLUSIVE by saying in his CE2011 "lie" that the hospital employees made a positive identification of Bullet CE399/C1?
It seems to me you've got Hoover being a rotten liar---but not ENOUGH of a liar.
1.) Elmer Todd identified his initials on CE399. (And I'm in the process now of looking at the good-quality Mary Ferrell NARA color pictures of CE399, and turning them every which way imaginable to try and find Todd's mark; I haven't given up trying yet.)
2.) CE399 was fired from Mannlicher-Carcano Rifle #C2766, which was positively ordered by, paid for, and possessed by Lee Harvey Oswald.
3.) Rifle C2766 was the weapon that was used to murder John Kennedy and injure John Connally.
4.) James DiEugenio has no PROOF that the Federal Bureau of Investigation faked or planted ANY evidence connected with the JFK or J.D. Tippit murder cases.
5.) Jim DiEugenio's "ALL THE EVIDENCE WAS FAKED TO IMPLICATE OSWALD" imagination has been running on high gear since approximately the year 2007. (Maybe longer; but I use the 2007 date to gauge Jimbo's highest state of "Everything Was Fake" mentality regarding virtually ALL of the evidence connected with the case, because it was in 2007 that Jim became a regular guest on Len Osanic's Anybody But Oswald Radio Network.)
6.) Lee Harvey Oswald, based on the sum total of evidence in the case, shot and killed both JFK and J.D. Tippit.
JIM DiEUGENIO SAID:
Are you serious Davey? Because that would have made it obvious the FBI committed perjury and fraud!
You don't understand that? Talk about silly.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
But Jimbo thinks the FBI didn't have any hesitation committing the felony of placing a phony bullet (CE399) into the evidence connected with the murder of a President of the United States, and then disposing of the "real" stretcher bullet. Which, btw, would have been a totally superfluous act of "planting/substituting" in the first place.
Because the FBI knew that they had a WHOLE GOB OF OTHER STUFF that linked Lee Oswald to the assassination. (But, oh yes, Jim D. thinks ALL of that other stuff is fake too. LOL.)
The FBI, therefore, didn't need CE399 at all. Even without it, Oswald's guilt is sealed tight, via ALL THE OTHER STUFF that connects LHO to the two murders he committed in Dallas on 11/22/63. So, why on Earth would the FBI feel the need to plant CE399 into the works too?
Why not just "deep-six" the pointy-tipped bullet that Jimbo thinks was really found on the stretcher and leave it at that?
Or: just simply TELL THE TRUTH and reveal to the public that the POINTY bullet found at Parkland HAD NOTHING WHATEVER TO DO WITH THE JFK CASE--which is, in fact, what DiEugenio must believe IS the truth. Because Jimbo thinks that a POINTY bullet was found on Ronnie Fuller's stretcher!
Therefore, per Jim, it's a bullet that could not possibly have been a part of the "JFK case" at all. Unless some of Jimbo's dopey bullet-planters decided it was a good idea to start planting POINTY bullets (i.e., NON-OSWALD bullets) on the WRONG STRETCHER at Parkland Hospital.
Back to the FBI's attitudes:
They (the Feds) didn't care about possibly being discovered when it came to placing a PHONY BULLET into the records of the JFK murder case. Right, Jim? That tiny little hunk of illegal behavior just rolled off their collective backs, didn't it? Your imagination is really something.
So, apparently the big, bad FBI only cared about getting caught with their hands in the cookie jar when it came to SOME of their "cover-up" activities connected to the JFK assassination (and there were a whole BUNCH of illegal things that they did in this case too, per Jim DiEugenio).
Talk about the silly getting sillier.
David Von Pein
August 27-28, 2010
Posted By: David Von Pein
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