RON ECKER SAID:
[Gerald] Ford was full of it, period. Take the article he wrote with David Belin (there's a team for you) claiming that Harry Holmes proved there was no conspiracy, at least as far as that two-bit nightclub owner Jack Ruby was concerned. If Holmes hadn't decided to go interrogate Oswald that morning instead of going to church (one's civic duty comes before God), Oswald would have been transferred earlier with no Jack Ruby there. Ergo, Ruby's shooting of Oswald was not a planned hit, it was a spur-of-the-moment thing when Ruby just happened to show up later.
It's safe to say that Ford (and Belin) thought his readers were just as dumb as he was, as it wouldn't occur to them that if Ruby's shooting of Oswald was planned, Oswald would naturally have been held until such time as Ruby was in place and the signal was given. Holmes's police work was simply a good excuse for the "delay" in transferring Oswald.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Ron,
The "Harry Holmes Delayed The Transfer" thing is something I've used many times in the past too. And that's because it is TRUE. If Holmes had not decided to go downtown and interrogate Oswald, then Ruby could not possibly have shot Oswald, because Oswald's transfer would very likely have already taken place by the time Ruby got done with his Western Union business.
That makes perfect sense to me. Just as it also makes perfect sense to say that if stripper Karen Carlin had not telephoned Ruby when she did on the morning of 11/24/63 (10:20 AM), then Oswald would very likely not have been shot. (And who in their right mind thinks Karen Carlin was a co-conspirator in a plot to rub out Oswald?)
IOW---Oswald was killed not by a conspiracy, but instead as a result of good old garden-variety HAPPENSTANCE. To believe anything else requires twisting yourself into a pretzel in order to bring "conspiracy" into Jack Ruby's movements on November 24th in Dallas.
RON ECKER SAID:
Yeah, whatever you say, Dave.
Karen Carlin: Jack, could you wire me some money this morning?
Jack Ruby: Yeah, no problem. Western Union is right down the street from where I have some business to attend to. I'll leave a little early and do it on the way. But get this straight: This is the last time you'll be getting any money from me.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Ron,
You just proved my point about Carlin's call.
Thanks.
RON ECKER SAID:
I did? Okay, no problem, Dave!
JON G. TIDD SAID:
I've never understood Holmes's role in interrogating Oswald. Holmes was a federal officer. Oswald was not charged with violating any federal law. Will Fritz and Henry Wade should have kept Holmes away from Oswald. Holmes was as much an interloper as would have been anyone off the street.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
That's kind of a ridiculous thing to say, Jon. Holmes was a U.S. postal inspector, and the POST OFFICE played a part in the evidence connected to Lee Harvey Oswald (via the P.O. Boxes he rented in 1963 and the U.S. Postal Money Order that Oswald used to order the assassination weapon).
So, Jon, I think Harry D. Holmes was a little bit more significant to the investigation than just any ol' John Doe pulled in off the street.
RON ECKER SAID:
Holmes has all the earmarks of a nonsensical excuse for the cops to hold Oswald until Ruby was in position. It suggests that there may have been no set time for Ruby to be there, or that his wire to Carlin delayed him. In any case, Ruby knew he had to show up, and the transfer wasn't happening till he did.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Then why wasn't Ruby already downtown prior to 10:00 AM, which is when Oswald was supposed to originally be transferred?
RON ECKER SAID:
I'll ask him when I see him.
I'm not going to argue with you.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I can see why.
ROBERT PRUDHOMME SAID:
Maybe Ruby got cold feet, and had to be "persuaded" to carry out his task.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Or....
Maybe Jack Ruby's movements were just exactly what they appeared to be --- the movements of a man who did not wake up on Sunday morning, November 24, 1963, with the thought in his mind of murdering Lee Harvey Oswald, but due to ordinary non-conspiratorial circumstances found himself downtown near the City Hall building (with a gun in his possession, which he was known to carry, even on days when accused Presidential assassins were NOT being housed at Dallas Police Headquarters) at precisely the right moment to encounter Lee Harvey Oswald in the police basement.
Is the above scenario even remotely possible in a conspiracy theorist's world?
ROBERT PRUDHOMME SAID:
Yes it is. Is my scenario even remotely possible in a lone nutter's world?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Extremely remote (at best).
And what about Jack Ruby (on Nov. 22) telephoning his sister Eileen in Chicago and telling her that he might fly to Chicago to see her that night? Was that just part of a scheme by Ruby to throw people off so they wouldn't suspect that Ruby was really on a mission to rub out Lee Harvey Oswald throughout the whole weekend of November 22 to 24, 1963?
And how did Jack know that his sister Eileen would tell him NOT to come to Chicago that night? Was Eileen part of the scheme too?....
MRS. EILEEN KAMINSKY -- "Jack said, "What a black mark for Dallas." Then, he said--oh, he said, "Maybe I will fly up to be with you tonight." And I said, "Well, I don't think that is necessary"." [15 H 283]
RON ECKER SAID:
What about it? Maybe he knew that if he didn't go see his sister that night, he might never see her again, at least not as a free man.
That's one possibility. But I know, you don't have to tell me, that's "just plain silly."
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Okaaaaay, Ron. So Ruby is hired to rub out the patsy. And he surely knows that he should probably carry out that "rubbing out" job as soon as he can, so the patsy won't spill any more beans than he already might have spilled to the cops since the plotters (including Ruby) were too stupid to just kill Oswald after he left the Book Depository Building immediately after the assassination.
But Ruby decides to waste a bunch of time by phoning his two sisters (Eva and Eileen) on the afternoon and evening of November 22nd (and he wasted more time on the phone talking to several other people too). And on top of that foot-dragging that he did on the telephone that weekend, Ruby decides he just might want to fly out of Dallas and travel hundreds of miles away to Chicago, Illinois, so he can say goodbye for the last time to his sister Eileen. Which means he would have to very quickly hop on another plane at O'Hare International Airport (or whatever low-profile airport Chicago was using to accommodate hit men and other assorted criminals so they could slip in and out of town without attracting any undue attention) and fly almost immediately back to Dallas in order to complete his important assignment of murdering the patsy named Oswald.
Good theory, Ron. Nothing wrong with that logic at all.
(But at least I didn't use that "S" word you hate so much.) :-)
MARK KNIGHT SAID:
Midway. That would likely be the other airport in Chicago.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yes. That's a good alternate choice, Mark.
But even Midway is a pretty good-sized airport. I'm thinking Ruby might have wanted to use DuPage Airport, which is a general aviation facility located 29 miles west of Chicago. If Jack wanted to keep a very low profile while visiting his sister for the last time before plugging Oswald, I think DuPage might have been his best bet. And on his drive into Chicago, he could (of course) stop by a deli in his old neighborhood where he used to live and pick up some sandwiches to take to Eileen too.
RON ECKER SAID:
Who said Ruby was hired to rub out the patsy? He was told to rub out the patsy.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
And the evidence for that extraordinary assertion is.....?
BRIAN SCHMIDT SAID:
Then why did he [Ruby] show up at the police station on several occasions after Oswald was arrested? Why did he go to the news conference the night of the 22nd and correct Henry Wade, making sure Oswald [was] tied to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, as opposed to an anti-Castro group? These actions cast serious doubts on your scenario. Add in Ruby's telling of a friend to "come see the fireworks" along the motorcade route, his frenzied calls after the assassination, the number of calls and curious people he talks to leading up to his killing of Oswald, and the scenario becomes highly unlikely.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Jack Ruby liked to go where the action was happening. (I thought that fact was common knowledge by now amongst people interested in the JFK assassination.) So it doesn't surprise me in the least that he showed up numerous times at Dallas City Hall after Oswald was arrested. It's what I would EXPECT Jack Ruby to do. Plus, he knew a lot of cops. This made his presence in the police station more of a normal occurrence than anything out of the ordinary as far as many of the police officers stationed there were concerned.
As far as Ruby's knowledge of the "Fair Play For Cuba Committee" during Henry Wade's late-night news conference, there is a very logical explanation for that --- right here.
Also see the chapter called "Ruby And The Mob" on pages 1071—1144 of Vincent Bugliosi's "Reclaiming History". That chapter contains an excellent biography of Jack Ruby.
BRIAN SCHMIDT SAID:
I never said it was out of the ordinary for Ruby to hang around the police station or be around action. I agree that it's part of his personality. But it clashes with your original assertion that Ruby just happened to be around the police station and had no prior knowledge of Oswald's movements.
As far as the "Fair Play for Cuba Committee" comment, I'm not saying that Ruby wouldn't have known that, I'm calling attention to the fact that Ruby felt the need to correct Wade at all.
For further reading on Ruby, I'd suggest reading Larry Hancock's "Someone Would Have Talked," in which he dedicates a lot of space to covering Ruby and his movements and associations during this time.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
It's funny, isn't it Brian, that two people can look at the exact same facts and the exact same circumstances and yet come to totally opposite conclusions?
The nature of "human" life, I suppose.
But it is my firm belief that Jack Ruby's known actions and movements from November 22 to November 24 practically eliminate the idea that any pre-planned conspiracy (or "rub out") occurred in the basement of Dallas City Hall at 11:21 AM CST on 11/24/63.
David Von Pein
August 11-12, 2015
