BEN HOLMES SAID:
Why did [Police Officer Marrion] Baker come up with so many different versions of meeting up with Oswald, and why did the WC [Warren Commission] dishonestly move Baker's time of arrival back so far, and the alleged assassin up so much? They did so by false statements, why was this needed?
JOHN McADAMS SAID:
You are just making stuff up.
The WC recreated both Baker's dismounting from the bike and running into the Depository and up to the 2nd floor, and Oswald's descent from the 6th floor.
Trivial differences about whether Oswald had a Coke in his hand don't change any of that.
BEN HOLMES SAID:
Actually, the time involved in purchasing the Coke makes the WC scenario impossible... even as they twisted the timing to their best advantage.
JOHN McADAMS SAID:
But Baker saw Oswald entering the second floor lunchroom. If Oswald had a Coke, he purchased it quickly before Baker himself got into the lunchroom.
You are assuming that "different versions" means "lies."
No responsible historian would assume that. In fact, Baker crossed out the "Coke" business in one of his statements, apparently because it had been recorded in error.
BEN HOLMES SAID:
The truth, of course, is that the WC did everything in their power to speed SS Howlett, and to slow down Baker in recreations. They got the 'meet' that they needed, but didn't account for the REAL facts that day.
And when the timing was so incredibly tight, EVEN WITH THE 'SHADING' GOING ON BY THE WCR, it leads reasonable people to understand that Oswald simply wasn't where the WCR tried to place him.
BUD SAID:
A lie, of course.
Howlett did not move quickly in the recreations. And the recreation times are worthless, since no attempt was made to determine the fastest Oswald could descend. That is what is required in order to say what could or could not occur in time.
[...]
Hell, I could have put the rifle where it was found and met Baker at the front door when I was 23.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I agree that it would have been nice if the Warren Commission had done a re-creation with Agent Howlett moving much faster than the two tests that were performed at "normal walking pace" and "fast walk" speeds [Warren Report; p.152].
But even without a "really fast walk" or a "running" re-creation, Howlett's two re-creations are still certainly worthwhile and meaningful, because those re-creations establish as rock-solid FACT that a person could definitely descend from the sixth-floor Sniper's Nest to the second-floor lunchroom in 74 to 78 seconds WITHOUT EVEN MOVING VERY QUICKLY.
And since we can reasonably assume that Lee Harvey Oswald (after killing the President) was moving a wee bit faster down those Depository stairs than John Howlett was moving, it becomes glaringly obvious that Oswald could certainly have made it from the sixth floor to the second floor in well under 74 seconds, which was Howlett's fastest time [WR; p.152].
BUD SAID:
For the purpose of determining whether it was possible for Oswald to reach the lunchroom in time to be confronted by Baker, the estimates developed by the WC might be adequate.
But for CTer purposes, if they wish to RULE OUT that Oswald could have done so, they would need the fastest possible time Oswald could achieve to do this.
That was the point I was trying to make, that the information needed to show that Oswald could not have made it is not in evidence.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
The kooks who belong in the "OSWALD COULD NOT POSSIBLY HAVE MADE IT FROM THE 6TH FLOOR TO THE 2ND FLOOR IN TIME TO SEE BAKER" club are actually proven dead wrong by Howlett's two test runs all by themselves....since we know that Howlett DID make it to the 2nd floor within as little as 74 seconds, which is a time that beats either one of Marrion Baker's test runs (which were 90 seconds and 75 seconds).
So we really don't need a "running" test performed by Howlett and the WC at all in order to positively disprove the persistent conspiracy myth about Oswald not having enough time to get to the second floor.
BUD SAID:
David, we don't need to reply to conspiracy kooks at all, so what we "need" doesn't apply. The conspiracy contingent has been arbitrarily adding time to Oswald's trip for tasks they see him needing to perform, and likewise subtracting time from the estimates for Baker's time to get to the second floor lunchroom. My point is that no matter how much adjusting they do, they can't rule out Oswald getting there in time unless they can establish the fastest time Oswald could have gotten there.
Keep in mind that the estimates require memory, and a lot of factors come into play, but a fairly accurate fastest time could have been arrived at, but this was never attempted. To get this information, you'd need to get a young skinny guy, have him perform the tasks as Oswald would have had to do, run down the steps as fast as he could, and clock this time. No such test was ever performed, so no such approximate "fastest time" exists in evidence. Such a "fastest time" is necessary to support CTer absolute claims about what Oswald could or could not have done.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Oh, come now, Bud! You're surely not actually suggesting that the Anybody-But-Oswald conspiracy kooks of Planet Earth would ACCEPT a "fastest time" re-creation (had such a test been performed by anyone in "officialdom"), are you? You know better than that, Bud.
Any such "fastest time" test would have been completely ignored or misrepresented by conspiracy kooks, just as the Warren Commission's 74- and 78-second tests are totally ignored by those kooks (which, as mentioned, are two tests that prove for all time that Lee Harvey Oswald could have descended to the second floor before Officer Marrion L. Baker).
I suppose if Jim Garrison or Mark Lane had been the ones with a stopwatch in their hands during such a Depository re-creation, and a skinny 24-year-old lad similar to Oswald had fled down the stairs in 50 or 55 seconds, perhaps then conspiracy retards might (begrudgingly) have accepted it.
But if such a re-creation test had been engineered by the WARREN COMMISSION--forget it. If that had occurred, the CTers would merely be spouting the same worn-out myth they repeat over and over again today: i.e., The Warren Commission cannot be trusted about anything, and there's no way Oswald could have beaten Baker to the lunchroom in the time available to him.
It's a shame that so many conspiracy myths have taken on lives of their own, and they cannot be killed in the minds of many people who have convinced themselves that such myths are the absolute truth.
Such as:
1.) The one discussed in this post about Oswald not having nearly enough time to reach the lunchroom.
2.) And there's the similar myth about Oswald not having enough time to reach the scene of the Tippit murder.
3.) And the myth about the Mannlicher-Carcano being "the worst rifle ever made".
4.) And the myth about how Oswald was "a terrible shot", therefore he couldn't possibly have killed the President.
5.) And the myth about "back and to the left" indicating a shot from the front hit JFK in the head.
6.) And the myth about how the Warren Commission was boxing itself in to a timeline of "5.6 seconds" for the three shots fired by Oswald, even though the following words appear on page 117 of the Warren Report (which is a Report that has been in print for 45 years for everybody to see and read, and for conspiracy theorists to totally ignore and/or dismiss) --- "The three shots were fired in a time period ranging from approximately 4.8 to in excess of 7 seconds."
David Von Pein
January 6-7, 2010
