DON JEFFRIES SAID:
>>> "I am skeptical about all of Oswald's alleged post-assassination actions." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Of course you are. That's because you're geared toward believing the "extraordinary", while disregarding the "ordinary" (and disregarding tons of hard evidence that indicates you are dead-wrong; examples follow below).
DON JEFFRIES SAID:
>>> "Dale Myers was posting regularly for a brief period of time a few years back on another forum. I found him to be completely full of himself, arrogant and unwilling to address other posters with anything other than "buy my book"." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I suppose a person like Mr. Myers (i.e., a person who possesses a lot of verified facts about the JFK and Tippit cases) can seem "arrogant" to conspiracy clowns who live in a world of cloudy speculation and extraordinary theories that had no chance of actually occurring in Dallas circa 1963.
And I would guess that Myers' fact-based conclusions that he has reached about Oswald's guilt in 2 murders would, indeed, seem a tad bit "arrogant" to a conspiracy-loving kook who is silly enough to write the following words on a public forum: "I am skeptical about all of Oswald's alleged post-assassination actions."
DON JEFFRIES SAID:
>>> "I kept trying to pin him [Dale Myers] down on a very simple point: how did he determine what time Oswald left the TSBD?" <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You kooks can't even figure out the super-easy stuff, can you?
A checklist:
1.) All hard evidence indicates Lee Harvey Oswald positively shot and killed President Kennedy from the sixth floor of the TSBD.
2.) Oswald is seen on the 2nd Floor approximately 90 seconds (or so) after the assassination by TWO witnesses, Roy Truly and Officer Marrion Baker (who BOTH must be rotten liars if we're to actually believe that Oswald WASN'T stopped at gunpoint by Baker in the lunchroom).
3.) Oswald is then seen by Mrs. Reid as LHO was walking toward the stairs on the 2nd Floor, which are stairs that lead to the first-floor exit of the building.
4.) Oswald is possibly (even probably) seen by one or more newsmen (Pierce Allman and/or Robert MacNeil) right outside the Depository front entrance, within minutes of the shooting.
5.) Oswald wasn't suicidal. He wanted to continue to live after shooting the President. Hence, it stands to reason he probably didn't sit down at a table in the 2nd-Floor lunchroom (with his Coca-Cola) to have a bite to eat immediately after murdering a U.S. President. He, instead, probably wanted to put some mileage between himself and the crime scene as soon as he could.
Lee Harvey Oswald's approximate "12:33 PM" exit time from the Book Depository, established by the Warren Commission [see CE1119-A; WR Page 158], seems very reasonable to me.
But to an "Anybody-But-Oswald-Shot-The-President" kook, I don't imagine ANYTHING "reasonable" is very appealing....is it?
DON JEFFRIES SAID:
>>> "As I pointed out, the Warren Commission just picked 12:33 out of the air, with absolutely no evidence, not even the kind of laughable witnesses they used to buttress their other ridiculous conclusions." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
See #1 through #5 above.
The WC didn't merely pick "12:33" out of their collective ass. It was a reasonable approximation of the time Oswald left the building, based on the observations of a variety of witnesses.
Plus, it's a timeline based on ordinary common sense as well. I.E., it's a common-sense timeline approximation when attempting to evaluate the probable actions and movements of a person (LHO) who, per the evidence, had just shot the President of the United States and who almost certainly wouldn't want to hang around the scene of the crime any longer than absolutely necessary.
DON JEFFRIES SAID:
>>> "He [Dale Myers] refused to answer me, because he couldn't." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
A more-likely explanation is that he got tired of arguing with a kook about something so incredibly obvious (the approximate time that Lee Oswald vacated the TSBD on 11/22/63).
GREG PARKER SAID:
>>> "I'd presume their timing worked backwards from the bus. Not that I believe the bus story." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Which means you must now add Mary Bledsoe and (probably) Cecil McWatters to your growing list of liars.
Bledsoe KNEW Oswald PRIOR to November 22nd. She immediately recognized him when he boarded McWatters' bus.
Plus: There's the paper bus transfer (with McWatters' distinct crescent-shaped punch mark on it), which was found in Oswald's shirt pocket when he was arrested:
Is the bus transfer depicted above supposedly a "planted" item too (like virtually all other evidence pointing to Saint LHO that is inconvenient for you conspiracy kooks)?
Plus, Oswald HIMSELF admitted to having been on a bus right after the assassination. Was he trying to frame himself in some fashion here?
Oswald also readily admitted that he was stopped by a policeman inside the TSBD just after the shooting. (The cops are all liars, right? Plus Truly? Plus Bledsoe? The list of liars grows and grows whenever you talk to a conspiracy kook.)
GREG PARKER SAID:
>>> "It seems to me, the youth [on the bus] who laughed about the assassination was assumed very soon after, to be the assassin. Wade even claimed this had been Oswald in a press conference." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yes, you are correct on this point. At a press conference on the night of November 24th, after Oswald had been killed, Henry Wade did make that incorrect statemant about Oswald laughing on the bus. Here's a video of that conference:
But we later learned that the "bus laugher" was not Oswald at all -- but was young Milton Jones instead. That information had not been fully fleshed out and revealed as of Henry Wade's November 24 press gathering.
GREG PARKER SAID:
>>> "McWatters certainly seemed to think he'd been brought to the line-up to view the youth [Milton Jones]. Possibly having made that erroneous assumption about who the passenger was, and discovering the mistake, they decided to put Oswald on the bus anyway." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
And then the evil cops planted a bus transfer dated "Fri. Nov. 22, '63" on Oswald which happened to have McWatters' punch mark on it? Right?
You kooks are amazing idiots.
DON JEFFRIES SAID:
>>> "The truth is, we have no idea what time Oswald really left the
TSBD." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yes we do. We can't say TO THE SECOND what time Oswald left the building. But a reasonable approximated time can easily be achieved based on the witnesses in the TSBD and the fact that we KNOW Oswald walked several blocks east on Elm and then got on a bus at about 12:40.
As I said before, you kooks can't even figure out the easy ones. Why bother trying to figure out something harder (like this toughie: did Oswald have two feet or three?)?
DON JEFFRIES SAID:
>>> "His [LHO's] alleged post-assassination journey makes no sense whatsoever, regardless of what his role was." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Bullshit.
Oswald's post-assassination movements make perfect sense.
DON JEFFRIES SAID:
>>> "Lone nut or Patsy, no one walks away from the scene of a crime he's just committed, then takes a bus back towards it moments later..." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
And I suppose it would have made MORE sense for Oswald (who had no car of his own) to merely stand at his regular bus stop on the corner of Elm & Houston, waiting for a bus to get to HIM, with cops all around him....versus LHO walking out of Dealey Plaza and catching a bus further east of the TSBD?
If McWatters' bus hadn't been bogged down by the post-assassination traffic, Oswald would have no doubt stayed on the bus and passed right through Dealey Plaza on his way to the Oak Cliff area.
But since the bus was unable to move for several minutes (or made very little progress down Elm Street anyway during the time Oswald was a passenger), LHO decided to get off the bus in order to find a faster means of transportation.
And since Lee didn't have his Superman cape with him that day, the next best thing was a taxicab (which is something that tightfisted Oswald, by all accounts, never spent money on in the United States; which is yet another indication that November 22nd wasn't just an ordinary Friday for Lee Harvey).
DON JEFFRIES SAID:
>>> "...Then gets off the bus and hails a taxi back in the opposite direction again, only to have the driver drop him off past his rooming house, so he will have to unnecessarily walk back to it." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Oswald probably didn't want cab driver William Whaley to know where he lived; and he almost certainly was also checking to see if there were any cops near his roominghouse too.
So the reasons were probably two-fold for LHO wanting to be dropped off near the intersection of Neely & Beckley, rather than directly in front of his roominghouse at 1026 North Beckley Avenue.
DON JEFFRIES SAID:
>>> "Everything about the official story of Oswald's post-shooting movements is unbelievable." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
As usual, a conspiracy theorist has everything backwards. In actuality, Oswald's post-shooting movements make perfect sense....to a reasonable person.
DON JEFFRIES SAID:
>>> "Every witness he supposedly encountered was absurd and would have been torn to shreds on cross examination by a competent public defender." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Don's list of "absurd" witnesses would include the following individuals:
1.) Roy Truly.
2.) Marrion Baker.
3.) Mrs. Robert A. Reid.
4.) Pierce Allman (not confirmed, but a possible LHO witness).
5.) Robert MacNeil (not confirmed, but a possible LHO witness).
6.) Cecil McWatters.
7.) Mary Bledsoe.
8.) William Whaley.
9.) Earlene Roberts.
10.) Helen Markham.
11.) Domingo Benavides.
12.) William Scoggins.
13.) Jack Tatum (grain of salt should be applied here, since Tatum didn't pop up until late 1977 or early 1978).
14.) Ted Callaway.
15.) Pat Patterson.
16.) L.J. Lewis.
17.) Barbara Davis.
18.) Virginia Davis.
19.) Sam Guinyard.
20.) Warren Reynolds.
21.) Harold Russell.
22.) Mary Brock.
23.) Johnny Brewer.
24.) Howard Brennan.
But according to conspiracy theorist Don Jeffries, "every witness" on the above list "was absurd".
Twenty-four "absurd" witnesses, who were ALL involved in some cockeyed and wholly-UNIFIED "Let's Frame Lee Harvey Oswald" plot. (Or: they were ALL just boobs/idiots. Right, Don?)
And we could also add several Dallas police officers (like Nick McDonald, C.T. Walker, and Gerald Hill, among others) to the above list of witnesses who "encountered" Oswald prior to his actual arrest in the Texas Theater as well. Were those cops all "absurd" (or crooked) too?
DON JEFFRIES SAID:
>>> "One of the most absurd, William Whaley, even acknowledged this during his side-splitting testimony before the Warren Commission." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
It's side-splitting only to a kook who wants to paint Oswald as an innocent person. To a reasonable person, William W. Whaley's testimony is rock-solid in a "positive identification of Oswald" kind of fashion.
DON JEFFRIES SAID:
>>> "Whaley, Mary Bledsoe, Cecil McWatters and Helen Markham are hardly an impressive array of witnesses." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
But I'll bet Roger Craig, Jean Hill, Carolyn Arnold, Gordon Arnold, James Files, and Ed Hoffman are considered the cream of the crop when it comes to great witnesses....right, Donald?
DON JEFFRIES SAID:
>>> "The fact is that authorities had identical reports, independent of each other, from Deputy Roger Craig, Marvin Robinson and Roy Cooper, who all reported seeing a man resembling Oswald run down the grassy slope in front of the TSBD and enter a Rambler station wagon, just moments after shots were fired." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
A man almost certainly did get in a Rambler around 12:40 on Elm Street. But that man could not possibly have been Lee Harvey Oswald. It's not physically possible for that man to have been Oswald, given his known whereabouts several blocks east of the building (getting on a bus) at that very same time.
DON JEFFRIES SAID:
>>> "This was a solid lead, but the authorities never followed it, because they weren't interested in investigating anything." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
It's pure mush and balderdash when you ask yourself the key question of: COULD RAMBLER MAN HAVE REALLY BEEN LEE HARVEY OSWALD?
And one of your "Rambler" witnesses--Roger D. Craig--is a known liar when it comes to at least one other major ("7.65 Mauser") issue connected with this same murder case. A great guy for CTers to trust for sure.
DON JEFFRIES SAID:
>>> "These reports represent the best evidence, and really the
only evidence, that exists regarding Oswald's possible exit from the
TSBD." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You're nuts.
DON JEFFRIES SAID:
>>> "When we try to analyze what happened immediately after the assassination, and whether or not Oswald could have shot Tippit, we are asked to trust a group of uncredible witnesses, as well as Captain Fritz's "notes" from all those unrecorded interrogation sessions." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
And you'd rather trust Roger "KNOWN LIAR" Craig, eh? Lovely.
DON JEFFRIES SAID:
>>> "I don't think any of the witnesses are believable, and I don't think the official story of what Oswald is supposed to have done during that time is believable." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
That's because you're an idiot.
DON JEFFRIES SAID:
>>> "I also don't trust the veracity of Fritz's "notes"." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
That's because you're a kook who seems to WANT Oswald to be innocent (for some stupid reason).
And you also seem to be of the opinion that a gob of Dallas cops would NOT WANT TO FIND THE REAL KILLER OF THEIR FELLOW POLICE OFFICER. That is probably the silliest part of all, when examining the mindset of various conspiracy theorists with respect to the J.D. Tippit murder specifically.
To think that all of these Dallas policemen, many of them who knew Tippit personally and were no doubt friends of his, would have just turned a blind eye toward finding the real killer(s) of Officer Tippit (while at the same time trying to pin Tippit's murder on an INNOCENT man named Oswald) is just too stupid a theory to contemplate for more than one-half of a millisecond.
Incredibly, though, there are many conspiracy-thirsty idiots out there who DO believe in that very scenario (or one very much like it).
DON JEFFRIES SAID:
>>> "For instance, why would Oswald (or anyone, for that matter) have answered the question about getting his gun from his rooming house with the ridiculous reply "you know how boys are, they get their gun." Huh? This is the response from the disgusted prisoner who was persistently maintaining his innocence every chance he got? Sorry, I cannot believe that Oswald said anything like that." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You can't believe it because you're an idiot.
But a reasonable person examining that quote from the lips of proven double-murderer Oswald might think differently. (And the quote presented above I don't think is entirely accurate either. I think Oswald's actual quote was: "You know how boys are; when they've got a gun, they just carry it.")
Anyway, Oswald was caught red-handed with the Tippit murder weapon ON HIM in the theater, as he tried to shoot more officers with the damn thing, for Pete sakes!
And since he wasn't suicidal...and he also had no desire to tell the cops what really happened (i.e., he had no desire to confess to either of the two murders he had obviously just committed; instead, he denies killing anyone)...he, naturally, had to think of SOME kind of excuse--crappy though it was--for having that gun ON HIM in the movie theater.
It's kind of interesting to note the seemingly contradictory mindset of the above-quoted conspiracy-loving kook too -- i.e., he seems to not want to believe anything Oswald said to the police (such as LHO's remark about "boys carrying guns" or his remark about encountering Baker in the TSBD or about having actually been on the bus and taking a cab on the very day of JFK's murder).
But that same CTer (I'm guessing) has no problem at all believing such Oswald verbal gems as "I'm just a patsy", and "I never owned a rifle", and "I didn't shoot anybody, no sir", and "I never carried any long package into work", etc.
Right, Mr. Jeffries?
(I bet I am right. Wanna wager?)
Then, too, since the CTer [Jeffries] said that he doesn't trust the "veracity of Fritz's notes" at all, that CTer probably shouldn't believe ANY of Oswald's behind-closed-doors statements made to the police (no matter what they were).
But I'd bet my next CIA Disinfo check that Don Jeffries believes Oswald was telling Fritz (et al) the Gospel truth when Saint Oz said these two things to the cops:
"I never owned a rifle" and (paraphrasing) "Wesley Frazier is wrong! I never carried any bulky package into work with me on Friday morning, and I never said anything to Wesley about having any curtain rods either".
GREG PARKER SAID:
>>> "On balance, I don't believe Oswald carried a gun into the TT [Texas Theater]." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Congrats, Greg! You've just earned "Super-Kook" status in just one single post! Nice job.
DON JEFFRIES SAID:
>>> "We are also asked to believe that the president of the Dallas Bar Association, Louis Nichols, was satisfied that Oswald was not being denied representation, after visiting him in jail. Huh? That's just about all Oswald was talking about, during his brief snippets before the cameras. It is simply incomprehensible to me that the same figure who was complaining constantly about "being denied legal representation" and requesting that "someone come forward to give me legal assistance" could possibly have told Nichols that everything was fine." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Oh goodie! Another liar to add to the ever-expanding list -- H. Louis Nichols is on the list now too. The number of liars connected with the JFK assassination must be approaching five digits after 44+ years of kooks searching for "the truth".
GREG PARKER SAID:
>>> "Nichols represented the Dallas status quo. His "impromptu" press conference straight after his brief talk with Oswald was reprehensible by normal lawyerly standards, and quite possibly done conspiratorially for the purpose of ensuring no one was going to come forward before Oswald could be taken care of." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Goodie! More behind-the-scenes, make-believe "conspiratorial" activity. So, Nichols was involved in the massive "Patsy/Rub Out Plot" too, eh?
Pretty soon, somebody's GOTTA get Sinatra into the mix too. His hands surely can't be squeaky clean with all of his "Kennedy" and "Mob" connections.
Right?
GREG PARKER SAID:
>>> "Nichols, at best, was acting like the rest of the status quo in Dallas, and therefore can be at least partly forgiven. A snake after all, can only act like a snake." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
And a kook will always act like a kook. (Status quo, after all.)
GREG PARKER SAID:
>>> "The greater anger and suspicion should be cast upon the role of the Dallas Civil Rights Union that night." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
And how many more "conspirators" would this add up to then? Let's see those numbers.
DON JEFFRIES SAID:
>>> "I am skeptical about everything Oswald is alleged to have done on November 22, 1963." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
That's because you are an idiot who shouldn't be looking into this case at all.
"If anyone maintains that Oswald was just a patsy and did not kill Kennedy, that person is either unaware of the evidence against Oswald or simply a very silly person. .... Any denial of Oswald's guilt is not worthy of serious discussion." -- Vincent T. Bugliosi
GREG PARKER SAID:
>>> "That Baker/Truly/Oswald thing is pure, unadulterated bunk." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
So, Baker and Truly were rotten liars and were out to frame poor innocent Oswald too, is that it?
Any particular reason as to WHY you want to smear Mr. Baker and Mr. Truly in this manner?
Just WHY would Roy S. Truly have had any desire to frame LHO for murdering the President? The same with Baker? Why?
Just make something up off the top of your head to explain these "Why?" questions....like all conspiracy kooks seem to enjoy doing, 24/7.
David Von Pein
March 20, 2008
