JFK ASSASSINATION ARGUMENTS
(PART 786)


DID PRESIDENT KENNEDY'S LIMOUSINE COME TO A COMPLETE STOP ON ELM STREET?:


GREG BURNHAM SAID:

ABC newsman Bob Clark saw JFK’s limousine come to a stop on Elm Street, reported it on ABC TV....

This is a companion piece to my journal entry about Walter Cronkite’s reporting of the “car stop” written two days ago, on August 20th [2014].

Today, Washington attorney and JFK assassination independent researcher Dan Alcorn found more compelling evidence on YouTube that the Kennedy limousine did indeed come to a brief stop on Elm Street during the assassination of the 35th President on November 22, 1963.

Dan forwarded me this link to a YouTube segment titled “The JFK Assassination, As It Happened, Part 1″:

JFK-Assassination-As-It-Happened.blogspot.com/ABC-TV Coverage

This two hour and two minute segment is ABC TV’s 11/22/63 television coverage from the day of the assassination, literally as it was broadcast.

Over one hour and nineteen minutes into the two-hour YouTube segment (you can easily fast forward to that location using the tool bar after you click on the link), at time 1:19:36, Bob Clark (who is speaking to the nationwide ABC TV audience via a telephone) reports that he was riding in the open press car [a short distance behind LBJ's vehicle] and that during the assassination, the President’s limousine “came to an immediate stop.”

In my journal entry two days ago I provided a link to live CBS coverage in which Walter Cronkite intoned “…the car stopped momentarily” during the assassination. The difference here is that Cronkite was reporting hearsay provided to him by reporters at the scene who had either interviewed eyewitnesses, or perhaps seen the car stop themselves. Cronkite found the report credible—he had no reason not to—but he was reporting the observations of others.

Bob Clark, in this ABC TV video footage from over 50 years ago, IS REPORTING WHAT HE SAW HIMSELF.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

To show that there’s more than just one side to the “Limo Stopped” story, here is an interview with assassination eyewitness Pierce Allman, a WFAA newsman, who said —— “The car kept going; the car did not stop.”

Also note Allman’s account of the spacing of the "THREE" shots he heard —— “The shots didn’t seem rapid at all. They were three well-spaced, reverberating shots.”

This interview with Allman was aired live on WFAA-Radio in Dallas less than 90 minutes after President Kennedy was shot:

video

Of course, the whole "Limo Stopped" topic that is constantly being dredged up by conspiracy theorists is ridiculous in the first place, because everybody agrees (and the films confirm this too) that the President's car was moving at a snail's pace the entire time it was on Elm Street. It was only moving at about 11 MPH even BEFORE the first shot was fired. That's incredibly slow to begin with.

So I guess it must be the contention of the conspiracists that driver William Greer was deliberately driving at a super-slow speed all along Elm Street, and he then (per the CTers) completely stopped the car in order for the kill shot to be achieved with greater accuracy (even though the Nix and Zapruder films prove the car did not completely stop).

Such accusations against SS agent Greer are despicable, of course. And the theory about the Zapruder Film being altered to "remove" the alleged limo stop is equally as ludicrous, because such a theory requires Orville Nix's film to be altered in the exact same manner. And as the following video demonstrates, the Zapruder and Nix films are in perfect "The limo slowed down and almost came to a stop, but it did not come to a complete stop" harmony:

video


David Von Pein
August 25, 2014
August 28, 2014


===============================


Subject: ABC News: JFK Limo Stopped
Date: 8/28/2014 11:02:10 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time
From: Gary Mack
To: David Von Pein


——————

Hi Dave,

Nice summary but there are a few more things you need to know. First, there’s no way to know when Allman’s TSBD report saying the car didn’t stop actually aired, but it was definitely within the first ten minutes or so, and here’s why:

After running to the Newmans and then to the knoll fence, he went to the TSBD and called WFAA radio where he was program director. He spoke to newsman John Allen, who put him on the air immediately. My estimate is ten minutes or less after the shooting.

Unfortunately, WFAA didn’t start recording its broadcasts until later, but Pierce’s report was recorded as it aired live. That recording was saved and played back later and that is what survives today. The original WFAA tapes are part of the [Sixth Floor] Museum’s collection and I noticed the replay years ago when the tapes first arrived.

As for [Doug] Horne, he never explains when, where and how all four films of the head shot were altered to perfectly match each other when the documentation is clear that could not have happened. Zapruder’s film is well documented, Nix’ film wasn’t even processed until December 1, Muchmore’s film went directly from her camera to the lab on November 25 and then flown to New York where it was shown on local TV the next night, and the Bronson film was processed on 11/24 and kept in his possession from that day until 1978 when reporter Earl Golz and I watched it in his house and took it back to Dallas.

Nor has Horne bothered to view the Zapruder film frames in stereo pairs, a test that always – repeat, always – reveals alterations to motion pictures. For that matter, he ignores the Secret Service copies that were made in Washington immediately upon receiving one of the three Zapruder copies the night of the assassination. One of those Washington prints is probably what Dino Brugioni saw that weekend.

An easy way to understand what Greer did and why is to drive the actual route (as I have) which folks will be able to do within a few weeks when Houston Street returns to its two-way status of 1963. Once out of the intersection, the street slopes down and away so drivers briefly cannot see the road. Then it quickly makes an S-turn to the left and then the right, so since Greer had never driven the road before he had to have been very surprised and a bit confused as to where to go.

Greer had to process all that information while keeping an eye on Curry a hundred feet ahead or so and also, once he recognized the pops were gunshots, he had to decide what to do and where to go. How many seconds does that take? Five, ten, more, less? Who can say?

Gary

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Subject: Re: JFK Limo Stopped & Pierce Allman
Date: 8/28/2014 2:12:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time
From: David Von Pein
To: Gary Mack


——————

Gary,

Thanks (as always) for all the great information.

One clarification, however, regarding Pierce Allman's reports.....

The on-the-air (and in-the-studio) report provided by WFAA's Pierce Allman that is heard at this link is most definitely NOT the same "from the TSBD" report that Pierce phoned in just a few minutes after the shooting.

The report linked above was aired live on WFAA-Radio about 80 to 90 minutes after the assassination took place and about half-an-hour or so after JFK was officially pronounced dead. The timing of his report becomes obvious when Allman talks about the fact that the President had, in fact, died. So it cannot be a taped replay of Allman's first report from the Book Depository.

DVP

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Subject: RE: JFK Limo Stopped & Pierce Allman
Date: 8/28/2014 2:48:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time
From: Gary Mack
To: David Von Pein


——————

Got it, I assumed you were referring to that first report. After listening to the correct one, it’s clear the Allman report you referenced aired between 1:48 and 2pm for there’s a time reference and a report that Oswald was on his way to the police station. That information, and the lack of a 2pm station identification reference (a legal requirement of all radio stations), establishes the earliest and latest times.

Gary

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Subject: Re: JFK Limo Stopped & Pierce Allman
Date: 8/28/2014 3:00:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time
From: David Von Pein
To: Gary Mack


——————

Right. That's where I got my estimate of "80 to 90 minutes after the assassination".

Does this mean there is a second report by Allman (the one from the TSBD) where he says the car did not stop? Or were you just confused about the one and only "surviving" Allman report?

Thanks.

DVP

[EDIT/ADDENDUM (AUGUST 27, 2015) --- Pierce Allman's live report from the Book Depository has survived and can be heard below. But nowhere within that brief radio report does Allman say anything about whether or not the President's car stopped. All he says is that the car "sped away".]



-------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: JFK Limo Stopped & Pierce Allman
Date: 8/28/2014 3:14:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time
From: Gary Mack
To: David Von Pein


——————

I was just confused....but I’ll add this. It’s really important to bear in mind where reporters were when the shots were fired. The White House pool car with Merriman Smith (UPI), Bob Clark (ABC) and others was IN the Elm-Houston intersection. They could not have seen much, if anything, of the JFK limo at that moment and would have had no direct knowledge whether it stopped or for how long. All they knew for sure was whether or not their car stopped. And we know from the Bronson film that LBJ was far behind JFK’s SS car at the head shot (it was even with the first of the three road signs).

All the other reporters were either on Houston or Main when the shots were fired, and there was no way they could see the limo because of the line of sight problem: the limo was much lower than the cars that were on Houston and also there were people on the side of the street between the limo and the press cars. Also, the buses were just starting to turn off Main onto Houston, so their view was completely blocked.

All this means is that the few reporter/news people actually in Dealey Plaza are the sole source of information other than the well-known witnesses, most of whom were behind the limo and the four or more cars immediately following it. Those vehicles either blocked or obscured their view of JFK, and any of them could have briefly slowed down such that the witnesses thought – while trying to see a vehicle moving directly away from them – the car actually stopped. It didn’t, and all films of the limo at the crucial moment show that.

Gary


===============================


PAT SPEER SAID:

FWIW, it's pretty clear to me the limo slowed almost to a stop, and that three of the motorcycles came to a complete stop. So why did this happen? Well, two non-suspicious possibilities occur to me.

1) Greer heard sounds but wasn't sure what they were, turned around to see if everything was OK, and took his foot off the gas as he did so. This seems reasonable but avoids that he almost certainly applied the brakes as well.

2) Greer heard sounds but wasn't sure what they were and where they came from, saw all the people up on the bridge in front of him, was momentarily concerned he was driving into an ambush, and tapped the brakes as he looked back to see what was going on. This makes the most sense, IMO.


ROBERT PRUDHOMME SAID:

Limousine driver William Greer to Jackie Kennedy at Parkland Hospital:

"Oh, Mrs. Kennedy, oh my God, oh my God. I didn't mean to do it, I didn't hear, I should have swerved the car, I couldn't help it. Oh, Mrs. Kennedy, as soon as I saw it I swerved. If only I'd seen it in time."

Many witnesses also saw the limo swerve to the left, although the Zapruder film shows no such thing.

Think Greer was on LSD that day, too, Dave?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Why is this topic even debatable? ALL of the films--from Zapruder to Nix to Bronson--prove that the witnesses who said the limousine stopped were mistaken. The car almost came to a stop, but it didn't come to a full stop. Simple as that. And the car didn't swerve or zig-zag either.

Are there really conspiracy theorists out there who think ALL of those home movies were altered?

What a job that was for the Film Fakers Society Of America, Inc.

The JFK CTers are a hilarious lot. Even when there's FILMED proof (multiplied by THREE films, no less), the conspiracy crowd still isn't convinced. Not even close to being convinced, in fact. Hilarious.

It's similar to what I've said in the past concerning Oswald's guilt -- the more evidence there is against the real killer (Oswald), the more innocent he seems to become in the minds of many conspiracy theorists. Now if that's not convoluted logic, I don't know what is.


DUNCAN MacRAE SAID:

Just a correction, David.

There are FOUR films showing the Limo slowing down with no stop.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Yes, you're right, Duncan. I forgot about Marie Muchmore's film. Thanks.

In fact, after I just now looked again at a slow motion version of Muchmore's footage [below], that particular film probably is the BEST film to illustrate the fact that the President's car did not come to a complete stop. The angle is just right to measure some degree of FORWARD MOVEMENT of JFK's limousine throughout the key point in time in Muchmore's film. And there is always forward movement. The car does not completely stop, making Muchmore's film perfectly consistent with all three of the other films (Zapruder, Nix, and Bronson):

video


RAY MITCHAM SAID:

Quote by Pierce Allman:

"A very dramatic thing, I can't forget it at all, I keep hearing the shots. And on the third one the President then, instead of slumping forward it looked like he was, he he jerked back or was thrown back a little bit. And Mrs. Kennedy then was halfway out of the seat and a Secret Service man--I presume he was a Secret Service man--was then over Mrs. Kennedy. And the car had stopped only momentarily and then immediately sped away at top speed."


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Ray,

“The car kept going; the car did not stop.” -- Pierce Allman; 11/22/63 @ approx. 2 PM CST

So, who should we believe here -- Pierce Allman in 1963 or Pierce Allman in 2013?

~shrug~


ROBERT PRUDHOMME SAID:

Dave,

Clint Hill said he saw a large hole in the back of JFK's head when he testified to the Warren Commission in 1964. Should we believe Clint Hill in 1964, or Clint Hill in 2014?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Robert,

Jean Hill said "I didn't see any person fire the weapon, I only heard it" on November 22, 1963. She later said she saw a gunman on the Knoll firing a rifle at President Kennedy.

Should we believe Jean Hill in 1963, or Jean Hill post-Oliver Stone's movie?

This is fun. Your turn, Bob. Use a Parkland "BOH" witness this time. Carrico would be a good one. He decided to completely change his tune in later years about the huge hole in JFK's cranium (changing from a "back of the head" witness to a "side of the head" one).

I get to use Domingo Benavides for my next "wishy-washy" witness. He first says he couldn't possibly identify Tippit's killer. Then, more than three years later on CBS-TV, he's absolutely positive that Oswald killed Tippit. (Go figure witnesses.)


DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:

Charles Brehm, in 1986, also said the car "took off in a zig-zag motion". Several people said they saw things that never happened that day. And the FOUR films prove those people never saw the things they said they saw regarding JFK's car.

video


ROBERT PRUDHOMME SAID:

Dave,

You know what I love about Lame Nuts? It's like playing Whack-a-Mole; you bust one head and three more pop up with more stupid arguments.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Name the last three "stupid Lame Nut arguments", Bob.

If any one of them tops the "Multi-Gunmen, Lone Patsy" plot endorsed by almost all Internet conspiracy theorists on the "stupid" scale, I'll gleefully give back my entire CIA Disinfo salary for 2014.

Good luck.


ROBERT PRUDHOMME SAID:

Dave,

Lame Nut Argument #1:

A goodly number of witnesses all mistakenly saw the limo come to a stop, and a goodly number of that group mistakenly saw the limo swerve to the left.

Mass hallucination and mass hypnosis theories belong in a comic book, Dave, not a serious discussion about the JFK assassination.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Lame Conspiracy Argument #1:

ALL FOUR of these home movies have been "faked" or "altered" to remove a full limo stop and/or a swerve of the car: The Zapruder Film, the Nix Film, the Muchmore Film, and the Bronson Film.

Mass "impossible fakery" belongs in a Twilight Zone episode (or a loony bin), not in a realistic debate concerning the events that took place on Elm Street on November 22, 1963.

What's Argument #2, Bob?

David Von Pein
August 29, 2014


===============================


A RELATED DISCUSSION:


RALPH CINQUE SAID:

Senator Ralph Yarborough and Jacqueline Kennedy [said] that the motorcade slowed and very nearly came to a stop during the shooting. I want to point out that that is not the kind of thing a person would likely be mistaken about. It's easy to see how the direction of a gunshot is something that people could be mistaken about, depending on other noise, their location, and the direction that they were facing. But Senator Yarborough was in the car right behind Kennedy. If he said it slowed to a near stop, he would know. You can't be confused about that. So, either he's lying or he's telling the truth, and no one in either camp has accused Senator Yarborough of lying.

So, what do WC apologists say about it? They don't say anything. They just shrug. They just go on to something else. If they can't deal with it, they don't deal with it. But, it is a big deal, and you can't shrug it off.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Since you brought up Senator Ralph Yarborough, let's take a closer look at a few of the things he said (in an affidavit he filled out on July 10, 1964, linked HERE):

"The motorcade slowed to what seemed to me a complete stop (though it could have been a near stop). .... I heard three shots and no more. All seemed to come from my right rear." -- Ralph W. Yarborough; 07/10/64

So, as we can see, Senator Yarborough heard exactly THREE SHOTS ("and no more"), and the Senator was of the impression that all of the shots came from his "right rear" (i.e., in the direction of the Texas School Book Depository Building).

Yeah, he's some great conspiracy witness, isn't he?

[...]

I guess Cinque must think he lied his ass off in his July '64 affidavit when Yarborough said "THREE SHOTS" and "RIGHT REAR".


RALPH CINQUE SAID:

No, I do not think that Yarborough lied about three shots and right rear. But I also don't think he lied when he said the car stopped.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Everybody knows the limo almost stopped. The Nix film proves that fact very easily. And so does the Zapruder film.

So what? What's that fact supposed to prove?

(Awaiting Cinque's theory about how driver William Greer deliberately slowed the limo to make the kill shot easier for the assassins. Don't disappoint me now, Ralphie my boy.)


RALPH CINQUE SAID:

Let's turn it over to AssassinationResearch.com:

Deadly delay on Elm Street....

Sixty witnesses (ten police officers, seven Secret Service agents, thirty-eight spectators, two Presidential aides, Senator Ralph Yarborough, Governor Connally, and Jackie Kennedy) and the Zapruder film document Secret Service agent William R. Greer's deceleration of the presidential limousine, as well as his two separate looks back at JFK during the assassination (Greer denied all of this to the Warren Commission).

By decelerating from an already slow 11.2 mph, Greer greatly endangered the President's life, and, as even Gerald Posner admitted, Greer contributed greatly to the success of the assassination. When we consider that Greer disobeyed a direct order from his superior, Roy Kellerman, to get out of line before the fatal shot struck the President's head, it is hard to give Agent Greer the benefit of the doubt.

As ASAIC Roy H. Kellerman said: "Greer then looked in the back of the car. Maybe he didn't believe me." Clearly, Greer was responsible, at fault, and felt remorse. In short, Greer had survivor's guilt.



DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I already admitted that I think the car almost stopped.

I'll ask again:

So what?


RALPH CINQUE SAID:

That's during the shooting that the car almost stopped. You speed up when shots go off, that is, if your goal is to save human life. Do I really have to explain that to you?

Besides, now that you have admitted that "the car almost stopped", show me in the Zapruder film where the car almost stops. Why don't we see it? It's all one steady, continuous motion until the car accelerates at the end. They took out the stopping. That's what they doctored. There may be other things they doctored, but they definitely doctored that.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

The "limo slow down" is noticeable in the Zapruder Film. Granted, it is more difficult to detect the limo's slowing down in the Z-Film, as opposed to the Nix Film, because the limo takes up Mr. Zapruder's entire frame, left to right (not counting the sprocket holes in the "widescreen" versions of the film, that is), but the slowing down of the car is definitely noticeable. It's not my fault you can't see it.

Here, try again, with this stabilized version of the Zapruder Film.

Note--this version below has been slowed down slightly. It's not in "real time" here, but the slowing of the limo around the time of the head shot can still be discerned.

And since this is a "widescreen" version, with the images between the sprocket holes visible, you can even see the police motorcycle start to OVERTAKE the limousine on the far left side of the film frame, which is perfectly consistent with what we see in the Nix Film and is perfectly consistent with the limousine slowing down, allowing the police motorcycle to CATCH UP to the limo right around the time of the head shot:

video


RALPH CINQUE SAID:

No freaking' way! That car was moving along steadily throughout. Yarborough said it came to a "complete stop" or at least a "near-stop". Nothing close to that occurs in the Zapruder film you sent. Why don't you watch it again, and this time notice that not during the head shot nor at any other time does the car come to a "complete stop" or "near stop."


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

You're wrong, Ralph. I can detect the limo slowing down. And the motorcycle is overtaking the limo.

You must think the cycle is speeding up, instead of the limo slowing down, right?


ORLANDO MARTIN SAID:

The key question is; Why did the car slow down when shots were being fired at the president? Yes, as Ralph stated, it was certainly so that the shooters could take better aim at the president. It is a difficult thing to hit a moving target, and not so difficult to hit a target that is barely moving.

[...]

He [William Greer] waited for the headshot to come in from the Grassy Knoll before he moved on. Based on his behavior, anyone could deduce that he was aware that there was a gunman in [on?] the Knoll. The fact that Agent Greer waited for the headshot is clear and evident in the [Zapruder] film.

You asked: so what? How idiotic is that of a question! The "so what" is so that the president could be murdered. I consider that "so what" extremely significant. Don't you?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

So, Orlando, let me get this straight....

You actually think that Secret Service agent William Greer was one of the KEY CONSPIRATORS in the President's assassination. Is that correct?

[Orlando never answered the above question. But as this post of Orlando's demonstrates, his answer to my last question can only be a very firm "Yes". Unbelievable.]

David Von Pein
July 2010