NOTE -- A few other conspiracy theorists besides Jim DiEugenio also contribute to this 70th "DVP vs. DiEUGENIO" installment.
http://EducationForum.com
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Jimmy [DiEugenio],
The proof that Oswald picked up the revolver, regardless of where he picked it up, is the undeniable fact that Mr. Oswald had Revolver V510210 in his hands when he was arrested in the Texas Theater on 11/22/63.
Duh!
LEE FARLEY THEN INTERJECTED WITH:
Of course he did. He tried to shoot Nick McDonald, didn't he? And there was an indent on the primer of the shell, wasn't there?
DAVID VON PEIN THEN SAID:
And the two NON-POE bullet shells found at the Tippit murder scene match the gun that you conspiracy clowns want to take out of LHO's hands.
Given that FACT, now try to pretend Oswald was innocent of shooting Tippit, Lee. (I'm sure you'll find a way, though, no matter how much real evidence [and witnesses] you have to toss in the trash.)
LEE FARLEY SAID:
Yeah, Dave. The same gun he tried, unsuccessfully, to shoot Nick McDonald with in the Theater. The same gun that didn't go off and left an indent on one of the shells.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
So what? Who cares?
Oswald's V510210 gun was obviously in perfect working order at approx. 1:14-1:15 PM when he plugged Officer Tippit four times with it.
But, as always, hard-nosed conspiracists always prefer to concentrate on meaningless chaff, instead of focusing on the wheat field that is Oswald's guilt.
TIME FOR A COMMON-SENSE BREAK:
LEE FARLEY SAID:
Helen Markham's regular bus had long gone by 1:14pm.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Untrue.
LEE FARLEY SAID:
And how did the indent disappear that the arresting officers saw and wrote about in their official reports and discussed with the media?
Maybe you can call Max Holland? Perhaps he knows what happened to the lost indent?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Do you have any idea WHY this chaff matters in the slightest degree when it comes to proving Oswald's guilt in Tippit's slaying?
You REALLY think the cops switched guns? AND switched the bullet shells that littered Tenth & Patton?
Therefore, if the above things were true, the Dallas cops couldn't have cared less about Tippit's real killer getting away. They were concerned only with framing an innocent man named Oswald for the death of their fellow officer.
Come now, Lee, you don't REALLY believe that kind of silliness, do you?
LEE FARLEY SAID:
Dave, go and get yourself a handful of turkey fat and shove your copy of Reclaiming History up your hoop.
It matters. Just not to someone so ideologically corrupt as yourself.
Helen Markham's regular bus was 1:12pm.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
No, it doesn't matter.
JFK-Archives.blogspot.com/J.D. Tippit
LEE FARLEY SAID:
I already said it doesn't matter to you. Because you are ideologically corrupt. I wrote it right there in my post you replied to, Dave.
1:12pm.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
It doesn't matter--period (as far as being able to determine whether or not your prized patsy murdered two people with his own guns on 11/22/63, that is).
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
Maybe you missed this one. But there are three more coming up on [John] McAdams' joke of a book.
Let me make this point, because DVP does not have the guts to do so.
There is no proof that Oswald ever picked up the revolver in question.
None.
In fact, the preponderance of the evidence indicates he did not.
One of the silliest arguments I ever saw is DVP saying that the USPS kept a special box for people picking up merchandise from private carriers. HA HA HA
He then switched to Oswald picking it up at REA [Railway Express Agency]. He did not realize he was boxed in on this one.
Because there is no evidence the FBI ever went to REA to check on this. None.
That is because Oswald never went to REA.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
So, since there's no official record of Oswald having gone to the REA office to pick up the revolver (which is a revolver that we know beyond all doubt that he definitely ordered; Jimbo's absurd protests notwithstanding), this must mean, per DiEugenio, that Oswald couldn't possibly have gone to REA to get the gun.
Brilliant, Jim.
Via that tortured logic, then whenever a person does something that is not witnessed by someone else (or was not investigated by anybody in order to seek out anyone who saw it occurring), I guess this would mean that the thing the person did never really got done, because nobody was there to see it or verify its happening.
Jim, you continue to be one of the best jokes on the World Wide Web when it comes to the topic of President Kennedy's assassination.
ED LeDOUX SAID:
Excellent summation, Jim.
Where there is smoke there is fire, and this thread is HOT!
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
No, this thread (as I mentioned before) is useless and worthless. Merely started to cast doubt about something of which there is NO DOUBT -- Oswald took possession of Revolver V510210. We KNOW he did, because that SAME GUN was in his hands in the theater.
Why this stuff is even debated is a mystery to me. (Well, really it's not much of a mystery after you've hung around conspiracy boards like this one for a while. CTers want Oswald to be innocent of ALL murders he committed on 11/22/63. Simple as that.)
Maybe DiEugenio missed this book review [an excerpt of which is copied below].
[Excerpt:]
"John McAdams’ book is the final nail in the coffin of conspiracy theorists who have grabbed the attention of the mainstream media for far too long—mainly because the media understands all too well how the public loves a mystery. If John McAdams’ book is read in conjunction with the excellent books mentioned earlier in this review the JFK assassination will be no mystery at all." -- Mel Ayton
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
Quoting Mel Ayton praising McAdams is like quoting you praising Bugliosi.
GREG PARKER SAID:
More spin than even the great Abdul Qadir could muster.
I have been monitoring media stories during this anniversary. The vast majority came under 4 categories:
[Stephen] King's book
The Lost Bullet documentary
Praise for Posner & Bugliosi and/or ridicule of conspiracy theories
The giving of an award to Johnny Brewer
Most of the remainder were simple remembrances of the event ("where were you when?" type pieces...).
Those that actually came out in support of a conspiracy could be counted on one hand.
But as usual, you guys won't let the facts get in the way of your propaganda.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yes, Mel Ayton used the wrong term in his book review, IMO, because the "mainstream media" (CBS, ABC, NBC, etc.) is certainly overwhelmingly in favor of Oswald's lone guilt, which is obviously the correct conclusion, of course.
What Mel probably should have said instead of "mainstream" media is just "media" in general, plus book writers, movie producers, documentary filmmakers, and the Internet. Given those parameters, Mel's comment that I quoted earlier would be spot-on correct.
It's interesting that you cited that quote and responded the way you did, Greg, because just yesterday I added that same quote of Mr. Ayton's to my "Quoting Common Sense" website, but I left out the part about the "mainstream media", because I agree with you on that point--the MSM isn't pro-conspiracy at all.
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
As per the DPD being proof that Oswald picked up the revolver, Davey Boy, did the DPD go to REA to check on any witnesses or receipts that Oswald left behind?
Please point out when and where this happened.
They were too busy scaring the heck out of Wesley Frazier over his Enfield.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Why on Earth would the Dallas Police Department have needed to go to the Railway Express office to confirm Oswald picked up the revolver, when Oswald had that very same gun in his hands when he was arrested in the theater?
Regardless of HOW and WHEN that gun made its way into Oswald's hands on 11/22/63, the undeniable fact is that it DID make it into his hands on November 22nd in the Texas Theater.
DiEugenio's theories are so bizarre that you'd have to be a resident of R.P. McMurphy's cuckoo's nest to even begin to believe them.
LEE FARLEY SAID:
Your logic goes something like this:
We know Oswald shot Tippit because he was caught with the revolver in his hand at the Theater, and if we know he shot Tippit then we know he shot him between 1:14-1:15 because any sooner and he wouldn't have been humanly able to get there, and we know he got there because we know he shot him, and if we know he shot him then we know that Helen Markham's regular bus didn't take her to work every day at 1:12pm.
And you've got the neck on you to suggest other members of this forum should be in an insane asylum.
I should hope this is the end of the "untrue" matter! Because you are full of crap, Davey.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You are the one who is "full of crap", Lee Farley.
Mrs. Helen Markham wasn't due at work at her job at the "Eat Well Restaurant" until 2:30 PM on 11/22/63.
2:30 PM, Lee. That gave her plenty of time to get to work on time even if she missed the bus at 1:12. The busses left every ten minutes along that route on Jefferson Boulevard. So she could have easily gotten on the 1:22 bus and had ample time to get to her job before 2:30 (even if she normally did want to make the 1:12 bus each day).
And I'd be willing to bet you my next disinfo check that Mrs. Markham didn't always make the 1:12 bus every day.
Why do I say that?
Because the fact is -- She simply didn't NEED to make the specific 1:12 bus in order to get to work by 2:30.
I'd wager that there were many days when she had to settle for the 1:22 bus, or the 1:32....which would still give her plenty of time to get to work by 2:30 (even if the bus was practically crawling every step of the way).
-------------------------
HELEN MARKHAM -- "Eat Well Restaurant, 1404 Main Street, Dallas, Tex."
JOE BALL -- "Were you working there on November 22, 1963?"
MARKHAM -- "I was."
BALL -- "What hours did you work?"
MARKHAM -- "I was due at work from 2:30 in the evening until 10:30 at night." *
* = Mrs. Markham really meant to say "2:30 in the afternoon", of course, since 2:30 PM is far from being "in the evening". But I would imagine that some conspiracy theorists want to bite her head off for making that simple error.
LEE FARLEY SAID:
Let me say this reeeeeeeeal sloooooow for you.
Markham had a regular bus. The regular bus was 1:12. She said (UNDER OATH) that she left at her regular time so she could catch her regular bus. Got that? What is it that you fail to grasp on this point?
I don't give a flying rat's ass what you believe about whether she could have gotten a later bus. Keep what you believe to yourself.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
It'd be nice if you would follow that same advice. Because the things you believe should, indeed, be kept to yourself (due to their built-in silliness).
LEE FARLEY SAID:
How do you know she [Markham] didn't mean to say she was due at work at 1:30 in the afternoon? Do you have the Dobb's timekeeping records under your pillow? But don't worry. It's irrelevant. She told us what time she left for work. A little after 1:00pm.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
And "a little after 1:00" perfectly fits with Markham witnessing Oswald killing Tippit at 1:14-1:15.
And if she really meant "1:30", then her "in the evening" comment is even more absurd, because 1:30 is even further away from "evening" than is 2:30. (Maybe Farley didn't think of that angle, though.)
It's interesting that it doesn't bother CTers like Lee Farley that Markham's positive IDing of LHO is corroborated by the PHYSICAL EVIDENCE (the bullet shells from LHO's gun, which are shells that prove LHO was the killer, since he still had that same gun on him 35 minutes later).
So, what do the conspiracy clowns do (as always) -- they'll blame the DPD, and say they switched the shells. And they'll even go so far down Patsy Avenue as to pretend that the cops PLANTED Revolver V510210 on Oswald (or just entered that gun into the evidence chain later on).
That's how far off the rails a person needs to go in order to buy into the notion that Lee Oswald was innocent of killing Dallas Police Officer J.D. Tippit.
But Lee Farley is perfectly willing to go that far off the rails. And he has. (What a surprise.)
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
[John] McAdams said that there were two types of handgun bullets found on Oswald after his arrest. Wrong. There were only Remingtons. But guess what? When the police frisked Oswald at the Texas Theater, they found nothing--no bullets. The only place Oswald ever went after was the police station. So we can guess where those came from. The most corrupt police force in America at the time.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Dead wrong. Both Remington-Peters bullets and Winchester-Western bullets were in the possession of Oswald when he was arrested.
Sure, only one brand was in Oswald's pocket, but HIS GUN was loaded with an even mix of both Remingtons and Winchesters. (Which, of course, is what John McAdams meant. And it's unbelievable that DiEugenio wouldn't realize that that is what McAdams meant.)
And why on Earth you think the cops would have wanted to pluck the unfired bullets from Oswald's pants pocket during the so-called "fast frisk" is anybody's guess. That's just stupid. The initial frisk of Oswald was obviously to make sure he didn't have any other WEAPONS on his person. Why would they care if he had any extra BULLETS in his pocket at that moment in time? Answer: They wouldn't.
Do you think the cops should have been worried about Oswald having some loose bullets in his pocket AFTER he had been disarmed? Was he going to throw the bullets at the cops in an attempt to kill them or something (even after he was handcuffed)?
The five unfired bullets being in Oswald's pocket after he was stripped of his gun were about as much of a concern to the DPD at that time as the thirteen dollars and eighty-seven cents that was also in his pocket at the same time. The $13.87 was just about as dangerous.
Hence, the bullets in Oswald's pocket weren't removed until later (along with the $13.87 and other items). And the cops probably didn't even realize he had any unfired bullets in his pocket during the initial frisk anyway, because (as mentioned) they were frisking him for GUNS -- not small bullets.
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
Smell that stench, Davy.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yeah, the stench is pretty potent. And it's all coming from your computer. The way you will twist the facts to pretend LHO didn't kill Tippit stinks to high heaven. And always has. Your delusional paranoia has reached its zenith.
And I'll ask again --- What about Callaway, Jimmy? You still want to ignore him? Or call him a liar? (Bet ya do. Because to accept Callaway is to admit that Oswald was a gunman at the Tippit murder scene. And that would never do, would it Jimmy?)
LEE FARLEY SAID:
You'll always be haunted by the fact that Helen Markham left her house between 1:04-1:07pm and T.F. Bowley's watch will, for the rest of time, be at 1:10pm when he looked at it.
Which means Tippit was killed between 1:07pm and 1:09pm. And that being the case, Oswald didn't do it and your stinking and so-called best evidence is shown up for what it truly is -- fraudulent.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
It doesn't mean anything of the sort, Lee.
Since ALL of the times associated with Oswald's movements after he fled the Book Depository are merely ESTIMATES (and, undeniably, they ARE only estimates and approximations), we cannot say with 100% certainty that Earlene Roberts' timing of how long Oswald stayed inside his Beckley Avenue room is spot-on perfect.
In fact, common sense, coupled with some of Mrs. Roberts' own testimony, would indicate that Oswald was only in his room for a very few seconds--one minute at most. Here's why I say that.
So, even if Tippit was killed at 1:07 or 1:09 (or whatever time close to 1:00 you want to come up with), we're really only talking about a very few minutes in real time here. Oswald might very well have left his roominghouse BEFORE 1:00 PM, which would have placed him at Tenth & Patton earlier than 1:14-1:15.
My own opinion (coupled with the excellent and detailed research done on the Tippit murder by author Dale K. Myers) is that Tippit was probably killed at 1:14 to 1:15 PM. But it could conceivably have been earlier, because (as noted) the timing of Lee Harvey Oswald's movements after 12:30 PM is not firmly fixed in stone. And it never was. We can only guess as to the EXACT times.
But, in the final analysis of J.D. Tippit's murder, the hard physical evidence simply HAS to trump all other evidence.
And just because conspiracy theorists like Jim DiEugenio and Lee Farley want to believe that the physical evidence in the Tippit case is "fraudulent" (to use Farley's own term), that doesn't mean that everybody is required to accept such far-fetched notions.
And it's a particularly far-fetched notion in the Tippit case, due to the fact that a DPD officer had been slain. Therefore, according to the theories of people like DiEugenio and Farley, apparently a bunch of cops in charge of investigating the murder of their fellow officer, decided to just IGNORE the real evidence at the scene and, instead, they decided they were going to frame an innocent schnook named Lee Oswald.
Do you realize how silly that proposition is?
I wonder if James DiEugenio or Lee Farley (or any other conspiracist) really do realize how silly that theory truly is. And it certainly is just a "theory". Because no CTer on the planet has proven that ANY evidence that exists against Lee Harvey Oswald in either the JFK or Tippit murder cases is "fraudulent".
LEE FARLEY SAID:
Come now, David. What you propose is contrary to the official version of events. The Warren Commission had to use every trick in the book to get Oswald to Beckley by 1:00 p.m. To the point of getting William Whaley to make a liar out of himself on his second appearance. I don't care how long he was in his room.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
But it could be very important, because the Warren Commission's estimated times were being based on Earlene Roberts being RIGHT when she said that LHO was in his room for "3 to 4 minutes".
But just look at what ELSE Earlene Roberts said:
JOE BALL -- "How long did he [Oswald] stay in the room?"
EARLENE ROBERTS -- "Oh, maybe not over 3 or 4 minutes. Just long enough, I guess, to go in there and get a jacket and put it on and he went out zipping it." (Emphasis added by DVP.)
-------------
So, from Mrs. Roberts' OWN MOUTH, we have her saying that LHO likely wasn't in his room any longer than it would take "to go in there and get a jacket and put it on".
Also take note of the words "maybe" and "I guess" in Roberts' WC testimony there.
IOW--She was GUESSING. That's all. She wasn't timing Oswald with a stopwatch.
And I kinda doubt that it would take 3-4 minutes to just get a jacket. In fact, via the re-enactment done in the 1978 television movie "Ruby & Oswald" (see video below), it took the actor playing Oswald a mere 22 seconds to do all the things that we're fairly certain Oswald did while he was in his room on 11/22--e.g., grab his gun and put his jacket on.
But even if the WC estimates are correct (with LHO leaving 1026 Beckley at precisely 1:03), there was still time enough for Oswald to get to the Tippit murder site by 1:14-1:15 (which is the best estimate for when Tippit's murder took place, being based primarily on the DPD radio tapes, which indicate that Bowley's call to the DPD occurred at 1:18, which followed about 90 seconds of microphone "pumping" by Domingo Benavides prior to Bowley taking the mike).
We know that the trip from 1026 Beckley to 10th & Patton can be done in about 11 minutes. Several people have done it in just that amount of time. (Plus, we can't possibly know how fast Oswald was walking, or exactly what route he took to get there.)
Let me ask you this, Lee:
Do you think it's reasonable to believe that Benavides waited for NINE MINUTES to grab Tippit's radio and start pumping the mike?
And via the most commonly-believed scenario among CTers of Tippit being killed at 1:06, you've got Benavides waiting for about TEN FULL MINUTES to get on that radio.
Frankly, Lee, that's goofy. Benavides didn't wait any nine or ten minutes before grabbing that microphone. And you know he didn't.
Hence, via the DPD tapes (and common sense, plus Domingo Benavides' testimony), Tippit was likely shot at about 1:14 or 1:15.
David Von Pein
November 2011
