A CONSPIRACY THEORIST CALLING HIMSELF
"BORIS" SAID:
You'll continue to ignore the points I make, while whining that I ignore the points you make.
BUD SAID:
Conspiracy retards always interpret information into some form they are comfortable with that bears little resemblance to reality.
BORIS SAID:
[Quoting from a 1993 publication:]
"The explosion of the President's head as seen in frame 313 of the Zapruder film is simply not characteristic of a full metal-jacket rifle bullet traveling at 2,200 fps or less. It is far more consistent with an explosive wound of entry with a small-bore, hyper-velocity rifle bullet traveling between 3,000 and 4,000 fps, and probably toward the higher end of that scale.
An explosive wound of entry occurs when a highly liquid area of the body, such as the brain, is struck by a high velocity round. The tissue swells violently during the microseconds of the bullet's passing, and seeks the line of least resistance. That least resistance is the portal of the entry wound that appeared a microsecond before, and the bullet will not bore an exit hole to relieve the pressure for another microsecond or two--perhaps not at all if the bullet fragments inside the brain. If the cataclysmic cranial injury inflicted on Kennedy was indeed an explosive wound of entry, the source of the shot would have had to be forward of the Presidential limousine, to its right, and slightly above...the area of the grassy knoll.
The 6.5mm Carcano throws a 162 gr. bullet at a bit under 2,300 fps muzzle velocity. The closest commonly used cartridge to it in terms of ballistics is probably the .30/30, which has a .308" diameter. The Carcano round, about a .263" diameter. The wound we see happening in frame 313 in the Zapruder film--and see the results of most clearly in frame 337--is simply not consistent with this rifle cartridge, at that distance in living tissue. It is particularly inconsistent with a round-nose full metal-jacket bullet of the type Oswald had in his rifle."
-- Massad Ayoob [JFK Assassination: A Shooter's Eye View, American Handgunner, March/April 1993]
BUD SAID:
Empty claims. This person [Ayoob] is just shooting blanks. .... A lot of talking but no showing. You need experts in the proper fields [to] say this wound to Kennedy's head could not be achieved with a FMJ bullet.
Here, I'll help you, this is the report on this ammunition.
BORIS SAID:
No, they are most certainly NOT empty claims. They are assessments of ballistic behavior from a firearms and ballistics expert, who has appeared as an expert witness in that capacity several times in a court of law. And you calling them empty claims doesn’t make it so “just because.” This is unbelievably astounding ignorance on your part. It also gives me permission to toss in a lazy “empty claims” rebuttal next time you say anything of importance (which is seldom to never). Are you really THAT terrified of the evidence?
BUD SAID:
They are empty claims because they don't support the claims being made.
And being a firearms expert does not make him [Ayoob] an expert on the wounds bullets make.
Show that Massad Ayoob has the necessary credentials to speak on the wounds to Kennedy's head as shown in the x-rays.
[...]
You quoted a person you represented as an expert on the damage to Kennedy's head.
BORIS SAID:
No, I quoted a ballistics and weapons expert who knows precisely how bullets behave upon impact with different surfaces, not excluding bones and flesh.
BUD SAID:
Now you're just saying stuff. Look, if you think it will help you, I can link to photos of firearms and photos of bullet wounds and I expect even a retard such as yourself might be able to make a distinction between the two completely different things.
[...]
To help you further, Robert Frazier was an FBI's firearms expert. Alfred Olivier was the Army's wound ballistics expert. They are two different fields. If someone is a cab driver, that doesn't make them an expert in the wounds people sustain from being hit by cabs.
[...]
What is the compelling reason to give any weight to what this individual [Ayoob] says on that subject?
BORIS SAID:
Good question. Glad you finally asked. Because now that you’ve done your little troll best to discredit the man, we are free to examine his conclusions further....
Ayoob believes the same bullet hit both JFK and Connally.
Ayoob points out that Oswald was left-handed, which would have enabled him to actually shoot faster and better.
Ayoob does not discount the LN narrative....
Bullets like those fired in Oswald's rifle just don't do what we've been told they do. They just don't send pieces of skull flying across the sky when fired from a distance. This is so clear to Ayoob in fact that, even in the conclusion to his article, where he postulates that Oswald quite possibly acted alone, he does so only under the proviso that the bullet striking Kennedy at frame 313 "for unexplainable reasons did damage out of all proportion to its ballistic capability".
So now that the imbecile "Bud" has done exactly what I wanted him to do, let's watch him backtrack on his whiny bullshit about "empty claims" and "no expertise" and "why should we give any weight to what he says?".
REPLAY....
BORIS SAID [WHILE CITING MASSAD AYOOB]:
...Oswald was left-handed...
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
That's not correct. The weight of the witness testimony of those who knew Lee Harvey Oswald indicates that Lee was righthanded. (See the information provided within the image below.)
Warren Commission sources cited by Vincent Bugliosi in the above book excerpt:
1 H 163
1 H 293
1 H 294
Commission Exhibit No. 1401 (at 22 H 763)
BORIS SAID:
Since he [Ayoob] was arguing that being left-handed would have made Oswald a faster shooter, it would have benefited you not to correct it.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
But Ayoob's wrong. So it deserves to be "corrected".
And I doubt very much that a lefty would have been a "faster shooter" when using Oswald's rifle, due to the "righthanded" bolt action mechanism on that rifle. Bugliosi goes into that aspect of the "righty vs. lefty" thing in his book too, here:
"Also, as with all military rifles, Oswald’s Carcano “has a right-handed action” (7 HSCA 371—372), meaning the bolt action is on the right side of the weapon. Though a left-hander could certainly learn to fire a right-handed bolt-action rifle with a fair amount of speed, it is much more natural and easier for a right-handed person to do so. Indeed, the HSCA firearms panel said that “a right-handed action [rifle] would be difficult for a lefthanded individual to operate” (7 HSCA 372)."
-- Vincent Bugliosi; Pg. 338 of "Reclaiming History" (Endnotes)
DAVID VON PEIN ALSO SAID:
Referencing the Edgewood Arsenal report that was mentioned and linked earlier by Bud, here's what I said about that report a few years ago:
"The Edgewood Arsenal "Wound Ballistics Of 6.5-mm. Mannlicher-Carcano Ammunition" report is very interesting reading. More conspiracy theorists should look at it. Here it is.
Every single test performed between April 1964 and October 1964 by Dr. Olivier and Dr. Dziemian at Edgewood Arsenal in Maryland is consistent with the Warren Commission's ultimate conclusions.
I.E.:
Per the Edgewood Arsenal ballistics tests with Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle, that exact rifle was capable of causing all of the wounds that were inflicted on President Kennedy and Governor Connally on 11/22/63.
Quoting directly from the Edgewood report:
"Experiments were performed with the 6.5-mm Mannlicher-Carcano assassination rifle, serial no. C2766, and 6.5-mm Western Cartridge Company, lot WCC 6000, Mannlicher-Carcano ball ammunition to reproduce the conditions occurring at the time of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy on 22 November 1963. The results indicated that the wounds sustained by the President and by Governor Connally, including the massive head wound of the President, could be produced by the above type of bullet and rifle." -- From the Edgewood Arsensal Report, Page 3"
BORIS SAID:
Are you lying, David? Or mistaken? I thought considering the thread's topic, I'd give you chance to recant this horseshit. You know [Dr. Joseph] Dolce's letter contradicts half a dozen findings in just a few paragraphs.
Why were Olivier and Dziemian allowed to testify to the WC, and not Dolce? And why did Dolce claim that their findings were inconsistent with their testimonies? Do ANY of these things concern you in the least? Who do you think you're fooling?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You can't be serious, can you "Boris"?
That brief essay revealing Dr. Joseph Dolce's "thoughts" on the JFK assassination is laughable.
A few examples....
Dolce said:
"I am convinced that the one bullet theory is wrong, because of the fact that one bullet striking the President’s neck, the Governor’s chest and wrist, should be badly deformed, as our experiments at the Edgewood Arsenal proved."
Now, I'd sure like to know how the Edgewood experiments somehow "proved" what Dolce said they did "prove" above. Where is that proof? The Edgewood tests didn't even TRY to prove or disprove the SBT, because they never fired any bullets into TWO simulated torsos or "bodies". So why does Dolce think he's "proved" anything in this regard?
Dolce said:
"I feel that the sequence of the bullets is as follows:
1. The first bullet went through JFK’s neck and this is the so–called pristine bullet.
2. The second bullet went through Governor Connally’s chest and wrist and the [Zapruder] film clearly demonstrates Connally’s wrist against his chest wall. I feel that this is the bullet that is missing.
3. The third bullet struck JFK in the head and one fragment of this bullet struck Connally in the left thigh and also struck the windshield of the car."
Dolce's #1 item above is, of course, impossible, since the "pristine bullet" was found on a stretcher in a hallway of Parkland Hospital, and Dolce implies that this bullet "went through JFK's neck". So it exited the President's body. But it didn't go on to hit Connally, per Dolce. And yet Dolce still feels this bullet was the "pristine bullet", which was found INSIDE the hospital. (Doesn't the doctor even know where the bullet was found?) How does Dolce reconcile that little problem, I wonder? He doesn't say (in that article anyway). So that #1 item can be dismissed completely.
But, interestingly, Dr. Dolce also said this:
"I feel that Oswald was the sole assassin who fired the three shots."
Via such a statement, I think we can also assume that Dolce thinks the fatal head shot definitely did come from Carcano Rifle #C2766 (Oswald's gun).
Therefore, regardless of any minor (or even major) beefs that Dr. Dolce has with the conclusions of the Warren Commission or his own colleagues at Edgewood Arsenal in Maryland, Dolce's ultimate conclusion -- "Oswald was the sole assassin" -- is entirely consistent with the conclusions reached by the WC and the conclusions reached by the doctors who wrote the Edgewood Arsenal final report.
And nowhere in Dolce's article does he criticize anything that Drs. Olivier and Dziemian wrote in this Wound Ballistics report.
If that short essay written by Dr. Dolce is the best that conspiracy advocates can do in their attempts to try and dismantle the detailed findings of Drs. Olivier and Dziemian (and the many photographs that accompany those findings in their 1965 Wound Ballistics report), then the CTers should be very concerned. Because it's a mighty weak attempt.
BORIS SAID:
YOU [Bud] cited Ayoob's bio [in this post], which in that very citation identifies him as an expert witness in the capacity of firearms and ballistics in court.
BUD SAID:
Actually, it didn't say that, but we can't expect accuracy from you, can we?
Now, can you show he would be able to testify as an expert on wounds caused by bullets? Note I said "show", not just say.
[...]
You can support your words or run, it doesn't matter to me. It is clear that you will never support that this guy has the expertise to comment on the damage to Kennedy's head. You won't put up and you won't shut up.
BORIS SAID:
And if he [Ayoob] said anything to support your faith, you would DO ANYTHING to preserve his integrity as an expert. Next time check your own citations, and make sure there’s nothing in there that will make you look like an even bigger asshole than you are.
BUD SAID:
I would be smart enough not to cite a plumber when the subject is electricity.
BORIS SAID:
So if a plumber told you not to stick a fork in an outlet, you'd ask him what his expertise on the matter is, and then do it anyway. You've probably done it before...and that's why you're you. :-)
BUD SAID:
And why are you being a retard and trying to misdirect back to me? You cited this guy. You represented him as an expert on this topic. As soon as you are called on to show that what this guy has to say about the damage to Kennedy's head should carry weight, you go into this retard dance.
BORIS SAID:
Since we're on the topic of bullets and targets, I want you to support the SBT. Support it. Show it. You take a turn for once. If you can do that, I will post the citations I've found to support Ayoob. If you can't, we can assume you're a know-nothing coward who cannot defend his position.
Let's see what you do.
[...]
Don't forget to support your local SBT!!!
BUD SAID:
Did that. You need to find it.
BORIS SAID:
Complete bullshit, Bud. You've never done it. Not ever, ever, nor ever. You intend to send me on a wild goose chase through this forum searching for something that doesn't exist. Then you'll call me a retard when I don't find the thing that doesn't exist. What a ridiculous challenge on your part! And a cowardly one. So I'll counter it and pose a challenge to you....
Produce the post where you successfully supported the SBT, and I will stop posting here immediately, as per your conditions in the previous challenge which you also failed. In fact, not only will I stop posting, but I'll also concede that Oswald acted alone. THEN I'll leave. Forever. And that's an ironclad guarantee.
You won't, though. Because you're a liar. And you know it.
BUD SAID:
That you are retarded is beyond argument now.
REPLAY....
BORIS SAID:
Produce the post where you successfully supported the SBT.
BUD SAID:
What constitutes successful support?
BORIS SAID:
What are you asking me for? You're the one always demanding statements be supported. Support the SBT in a way that would pass your own test of what constitutes support.
BUD SAID:
That's easy. Now let's make sure I have this straight. If I can support the idea of the SBT, then you will pack your bags and vacate the premises.
I really don't believe you. You've shown yourself to be a slimy sort. OK, let's test the water, even though I have a good idea what to expect....
Would you consider it support for the SBT that the two victims (Kennedy, Connally) were lined up one in front of the other from the vantage someone was seen shooting?
BORIS SAID:
Yes, they were lined up in a way that a bullet could have passed through both of them.
See? We're off to a good start.
[...]
If you can satisfactorily support the SBT theory, then I will leave.
BUD SAID:
Now I need to support it to your satisfaction? This went from bad to worse.
BORIS SAID:
Were you hoping that you could simply say, "I support the SBT" and that's it? Show how it was done. Cite an expert. Do something. Do I have to walk you through everything, stupid?
[...]
So now that we've established the two victims are lined up, where do we go from there?
BUD SAID:
And that there was someone firing at them when they were lined up. What else do you need?
BORIS SAID:
Look how good I'm doing so far! I've coaxed an ENTIRE SENTENCE out of you regarding the SBT. But it's not enough to simply agree with it, so let's get to supporting it!
BUD SAID:
The support you are going to require is a high speed camera showing the bullets entering and exiting the victims.
BORIS SAID:
Citing evidence from the LN point of view is a very bad position to be in.
BUD SAID:
It isn't the information that is the problem. It is trying to force feed the information to a conspiracy retard that is the problem.
BORIS SAID:
Show how it [the SBT] was done.
BUD SAID:
Are you really this stupid?
http://YouTube.com/Video Featuring Dale Myers
BORIS SAID:
Dale Myers' opinion means nothing to me. He has no expertise in the relevant fields of wound ballistics or forensics. None.
[...]
I need you to show us how it happened, using expert citation. Dale Myers is not an expert.
BUD SAID:
Which is why your challenge was a phony one. Your challenge was actually to try to convince you of something you are desperate not to accept. It is like trying to feed carrots to a child who doesn't like carrots.
[...]
You are insisting that I have to take the conspiracy retard approach of looking at all the wrong things incorrectly. I decline.
BORIS SAID:
I admitted yesterday that JFK and Connally were lined up in a way which a bullet could realistically transit them both. But a supporting idea is not the same as supporting evidence.
BUD SAID:
Yes, it is. Evidence is...
"1. the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid."
BORIS SAID:
I have lots of ideas about this assassination, all of which are supported. But you want evidence. And now so do I.
BUD SAID:
If Myers wanted to plot a trajectory through a plastic trash can, he doesn't need to be an expert on plastic, he only needs to know where the bullet went in and where the bullet went out.
[...]
Why would you think a ballistic expert would know how to do computer modeling?
If I have to teach you everything, if [I] have to make every distinction for you, you will need to start paying me for my services. You bring nothing to the table.
[...]
Actually I gave you plenty of information to make the determination. You want more evidence.
The z-film shows the victims being struck simultaneously...[Click Here].
The trajectory was validated by a live firing demonstration...[Click Here].
Of course this will go where I knew it would all along, and you won't accept what is produced. You don't like carrots and no adult can tell you otherwise.
BORIS SAID:
I'm sorry if the murder of a world leader inspired the bar to be a little higher than normal, but really how high can it be? All the evidence is there, right? It's all on YOUR side. It fits YOUR narrative. And you're smarter than all of us. Your ad hominem attacks prove that.
BUD SAID:
I don't make you say stupid things and adopt stupid positions.
BORIS SAID:
His [Dale Myers'] expertise is in computer animation.
BUD SAID:
So he is an expert in the way I am using him.
Computer modeling is used all the time to determine how events occurred, everything from car accidents to Shuttle disasters.
BORIS SAID:
So their test results [in the 2004 Discovery Channel documentary, "JFK: Beyond The Magic Bullet"] completely misrepresented the trajectory of the real SBT. They fucked up. And so did you.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Well, since the shooter didn't hit the ENTRY point in the right location, then (quite obviously) the EXIT point for that test bullet isn't going to be exactly correct either. And it wasn't. Both entry and exit were too low. But the basic elements of the SBT were positively proven in that 2004 Discovery Channel program --- i.e., a Carcano test bullet, fired from the same distance and angle as the real Bullet CE399, can and will pass through two human bodies (or surrogates), and then break a wrist (albeit a simulated one), and then hit a (simulated) thigh, and emerge in ONE PIECE, without breaking apart or even having the nose being mushroomed.
I know the CTers hate the 2004 SBT test because it didn't perfectly replicate Oswald's SBT shot in every aspect, but that 2004 test definitely proved (to me) that the SBT is a viable and DOABLE shooting scenario. And even CTers should be able to see why that is the case.
More HERE.
BORIS SAID:
Apparently David is unconcerned with the accuracy of the test, as long as it vaguely demonstrates the bullet could transit both men in a way which even artificially resembles their wounds.
Tell me David, why did the Discovery Channel go through all the trouble to elevate and align the gelatin torsos to as precise a measurement as possible? Why did they post their test shooter exactly 60 feet high in the lift? Why did they test wind speed and verify their focus and illumination first? Why did they TRIPLE CHECK their measurements? Why did they take their twisted test bullet to a lab? Why did they use identical rounds? Why did they take the torso to a radiology department, perform a CAT scan on it, then convert it into a 3D image?
Do these seem like the actions of a team unconcerned with accuracy?
And yet they MISS THEIR TARGET, as you claim....and decide hey, we're cool with that, it's close enough.
Hilarious!!
With all the money and care that went into that production, you'd think they would try for a second take. But no. For David Von Pissant, "close enough" is "evidence."
Sorry, David. It's not.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Knowing (as all sensible people do) that an absolutely PERFECT and TO-THE-MILLIMETER re-creation of the Single-Bullet Theory is very likely impossible and should not be expected via any simulated re-enactment of the event, then the SBT test done by the Discovery Channel in Australia in October 2004 should be looked upon as solid evidence (although not perfect) to support the Warren Commission's single-bullet thesis.
BORIS SAID:
If the test wasn't accurate, then it's not EVIDENCE, David. It's. Not. Evidence.
And by the way...the test bullet entered maybe half an inch lower than the red dot indicating Kennedy's back wound. Yet the bullet exits halfway down JFK's chest! Practically center mass.
How do you explain such a discrepancy, David?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I can't, "Boris". I don't know why the test bullet exited that low. But I do know what the Warren Commission's detailed surveyor's measurements determined via their on-site tests in Dealey Plaza on May 24, 1964 --- and those measurements and angles indicate that the SBT is most certainly doable, with the exit hole for Arlen Specter's pointer in CE903 (Click Here) perfectly simulating the exit point in JFK's throat (and with the proper surveyor's angle of 17.72 degrees downward, AND without the need for the upper-back wound to be elevated up into the NECK, as most CTers seem to think the WC required, which is nothing but a lie, as proven by Commission Exhibit 903).
BORIS SAID:
How do you explain the narrator saying "Amazingly, Alex has replicated the magic bullet shot", when he very clearly does not? Why are they blatantly lying?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I don't think they lied at all. The SBT was, essentially, replicated in that program. As I said in my review of that program, I think it's....
"THE CLOSEST WE'RE LIKELY TO EVER GET TO A PERFECT DUPLICATION OF THE SINGLE-BULLET THEORY."
It wasn't perfect, no. And I (and others) fully acknowledge that fact.
BORIS SAID:
How do you explain their "oversight" in mentioning nothing about the Edgewood tests?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
What did you want them to say about the Edgewood tests?
Maybe they could have talked about how people like Cyril Wecht are dead wrong when they (he) constantly want to prop up the very damaged Warren Commission test bullets as PROOF that the SBT is impossible---even though Wecht has to know that those WC/Edgewood bullets didn't even ATTEMPT to simulate the SBT, because those test bullets were not fired through TWO simulated bodies at all. Therefore, of course they're going to be more damaged than CE399. How could they not be?
BORIS SAID:
This. Is. Not. Evidence. [The 2004 documentary.]
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yes. It. Is.
BEN HOLMES SAID:
The Autopsy did NOT show a transiting bullet [through JFK's upper back and neck].
BUD SAID:
The experts who conducted the autopsy did conclude the bullet transited, lurkers.
BORIS SAID:
Trajectory and plotting lines are related to mathematics and physics. Dale Myers is not an expert physicist or mathematician.
BUD SAID:
Nor did he produce a thesis on mathematics.
But so far this has gone just how I knew it would --- "I don't like this", "I don't accept that".
BORIS SAID:
He [Dale Myers] probably can't even play billiards. Again, he has ZERO expertise in any of the relevant fields required to support the SBT.
BUD SAID:
He provided a demonstration that showed something you don't want to believe. You just don't like carrots.
BORIS SAID:
And if I'm not mistaken, Ben [Holmes] has posted a diagram of bullet trajectory, from the SW grassy knoll, from the Dal-Tex building, from the TSBD, from the GK west of the TSBD. So you only like random plot lines when they serve your purposes.
BUD SAID:
Ben was selecting random spots, not me. I selected the place that multiple people saw someone shooting from.
[...]
You think this is Charlie's Angels, where a single person is an expert in hundreds of fields. Myers is an expert in computer modeling and he produced a computer model. But dismiss it on any silly grounds you like, you have no interest in the truth anyway. You are playing silly games and you don't like your carrots, and nobody is going to make you eat them. I won't try, I'll put a compelling case on the table for the rational people.
[...]
You are a lightweight when it comes to thinking. You can't understand simple things, even after I explain them to you.
BORIS SAID:
I will [leave], once you've satisfactorily proven the SBT. I promised I would leave, and I mean it. But we're not there yet. But keep going! You're on the right track.
BUD SAID:
Now you sneak in the word "proven". I'm wrestling a slimy snake and the slimy snake keeps moving and the jar I'm supposed to put the slimy snake into keeps moving.
BORIS SAID:
I don't want information. I know the information. I want evidence. From experts. And so far you're failing.
BUD SAID:
Again, the challenge is that I need to convince you of something you are loathe to accept. If you know the information as you claim, the fault lies in your ability to process the information.
If you want more evidence to contrive reasons to disregard, I can offer that the rifle found near where the person was seen shooting was matched ballistically by experts to have fired the bullet fragments found in the limo.
BORIS SAID:
I've seen the Z-film more times than you've used the word "retarded".
BUD SAID:
It isn't the available information that is the problem. The problem is your inability to process the information correctly. I can't fix you.
BORIS SAID:
Did you happen to read the comments section of that ["Beyond The Magic Bullet"] video before you posted it?
BUD SAID:
Why would I do that? Did I think you were the only carrot hater in the world? Of course retards have contrived reasons to disregard it. All you tards can do is criticize what other people do.
BORIS SAID:
I'm not really interested in what someone manipulates a computer to do.
BUD SAID:
It put us on the Moon, stupid. Although you might not accept that we got there.
BORIS SAID:
Myers didn't use his computer model to determine how the SBT happened. He used the official narrative of the SBT as a starting point, and worked his computer model around the theory. Surely anyone can understand the difference between trying to solve something, and trying to "prove" something that is already "solved".
[...]
You still haven't cited any experts to prove the SBT.
BUD SAID:
Try removing your head from your ass, see if that helps.
[...]
But let's see the version [of a computer model] you conspiracy retards have whipped up. Use that to show what the view would be from the 6th floor of the TSBD looking down at the limo. Show where the victims were lined up from that vantage using the crackpot model. Oh, that's right, critics bitch and moan but put nothing on the table.
And this is the retarded game you insisted we embark on. We were talking about a completely different topic and you insisted out of the blue that I needed to support the SBT. But of course the challenge really was that I am going to produce things and you are going to dismiss things out of hand because you don't want to accept what the things I produce show.
BORIS SAID:
If the [2004 SBT re-creation] test wasn't accurate, then it's not EVIDENCE, David. It's. Not. Evidence.
BUD SAID:
Of course it is, stupid. Only an idiot would set the bar so high as to demand exact duplication and replication.
BORIS SAID:
So Bud, are you going to provide ANY evidence that the SBT is a provable fact?
BUD SAID:
The phony challenge started as "support the SBT". Then it became "successful support" (whatever that means to a retard). Then the standard was relaxed to "Support the SBT in a way that would pass your own test of what constitutes support." Then it became "...if you can satisfactorily support the SBT theory, then I will leave." In other words, I had to satisfy this retard, a daunting task since he changes his mind like a woman. Then the phony challenge became "prove the SBT". And now the phony challenge is "provable fact". Notice the bar rising and rising?
BORIS SAID:
I still remember the neck wound being one of the first "ah-ha!" moments for me that something wasn't right with the official narrative. Since no part of a person's back is above their neck, it's impossible for a bullet traveling downward--from an elevation of 60 feet--to enter any part of the back and exit the neck.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Huh? You're dead wrong about that. The lower portion of the FRONT of a person's neck (exactly where a bullet hole was located in JFK) most certainly extends BELOW a person's "upper back". And we can easily see this fact when looking at this autopsy photo of President Kennedy....
Also See:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/jfk-back-wound-location
BEN HOLMES SAID:
Then you'll be happy to show us your expertise & credentials that exceed that of the medical staff on the HSCA. Because THEY prove you a liar. You DO know what they said about the relative locations of the back wound and the neck wound, don't you?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yes, I'm aware of the HSCA's silly determination that JFK's throat wound was located anatomically HIGHER than the wound located in Kennedy's upper back (by 11 degrees). But that ridiculous determination is easily proven wrong by looking at these two photographs (in tandem):
BUD SAID:
The entrance wound in Kennedy's back is considerably higher than the exit wound in his throat.
BEN HOLMES SAID:
You can't cite for your lie.
BUD SAID:
http://blogspot.com/Photo/JFK-1
http://blogspot.com/Photo/JFK-2
BORIS SAID:
Bud's citation is some guy who drew some lines on a picture. And in doing so, still manages to show the impossibility of the physics. Thanks, Bud!
BUD SAID:
Add "diagramming" to the long list this idiot doesn't understand.
BORIS SAID:
Diagramming? It's some anonymous nobody drawing a line on a photo. A LINE WHICH DOESN'T EVEN ADD UP. Anyone can draw a line to anywhere; why would I accept that as evidence?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
See these links:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/jfk-back-wound-location
http://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk
There's also this quote from Dr. Humes that "Boris" & Company will totally ignore....
"The wound in the anterior [front] portion of the lower neck [of JFK] is physically lower than the point of entrance posteriorly [to the rear]." -- Dr. James Humes; 1964 WC Testimony
And also....
"Perhaps the clearest visual evidence of the fact that the entrance wound in the [President's] back was definitely above the exit wound in the throat appears in one of [the autopsy] photos taken of the left side of the president's head as he is lying on his back, his head on a metal headrest. Only the wound to the throat is visible, not the wound to his upper right back. However, it couldn't be clearer from this photo that the wound to the back was definitely above the exit wound in the throat." -- Vincent T. Bugliosi; Page 424 of "Reclaiming History" (2007)
DAVID VON PEIN ALSO SAID:
BTW / FWIW / FYI....
If anybody here ("lurkers" or otherwise) would like the see example after example of what I would call "The Ultimate In CTer Denial Regarding The Single-Bullet Theory", click my link below (and allow the anchor link to "settle" down to the middle part of that long page). It's really a treat to behold (IMO). I often re-read this SBT debate that I had with several SBT deniers at The Education Forum, just for the sheer joy of watching the CTers squirm in their seats as they try desperately to convince themselves (and each other) that what they are seeing in the Zapruder Film isn't really happening at all. One clown at the Edu. Forum actually tried to tell me that Governor Connally's right hand (which was, of course, holding his very easy-to-see white Stetson hat) didn't really fly skyward AT ALL at Zapruder frame #226! That's the degree of Total Denial I unearthed via this SBT debate a few years ago. Enjoy...and savor the "Denial In Action":
http://Single-Bullet-Theory.blogspot.com/#Debating-The-SBT
BORIS SAID:
BTW / FWIW / FYI Davey....as you're have a chuckle re-reading your own material, continue to keep reminding yourself that the SBT has never, ever been proven, and to this day is only ASSUMED TO BE TRUE by believers. And all you're doing with your silly blogs is trying to prove that it could happen. You've never proven it did. And you never will.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Oh brother. I think you're lost in the woods, "Boris".
OK. Let's just do a general recap here....
President Kennedy and Governor Connally were, as you have already admitted [here], lined up in the limo in such a way from the POV of the TSBD's 6th-Floor Sniper's Nest so that a bullet could have passed through them both at the precise time when we know they both were struck by a rifle bullet.
And....
We've got a bullet hole of entry in JFK's upper back.
And another bullet hole of entry in Gov. Connally's upper back.
And a third bullet hole in the lower part of the front of JFK's neck.
And we've got no bullets inside JFK's body at all.
And we've got no damage to the interior of the limo that could be said to have been caused by a bullet that would have exited Kennedy's throat.
Now, without ANYTHING ELSE to go on except the above facts (and they certainly are "facts", wouldn't you agree?), what would be the likely conclusion that a reasonable person should reach regarding whether or not one bullet went through both men?
Talk about a no-brainer. This is it.
BORIS SAID:
DVP makes the same fallacious leap of faith as all LNers here...that because it could, it did.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
The SBT is by far the most reasonable conclusion based on all the facts. It's not even close, in fact. Every CTer alternative requires far more suppositions than the LN/SBT conclusion. (Not to mention the number of disappearing bullets required by the anti-SBT CTers.)
BORIS SAID:
And I NEVER admitted they lined up from the POV of the TSBD's 6th floor window. I can't say that, because I've never stood in that window.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
But we've got pictures taken from that window, looking through the scope of Oswald's rifle, like this example.
Do you think those pictures WEREN'T taken from the Sniper's Nest?
Or do you want to use the ol' "The SS-100-X Limo Wasn't Even Used For The 5/24/64 WC/FBI Re-Enactment, And Therefore I Get To Totally Dismiss The Above Photographs Taken From The Sniper's Nest Window" dodge?
Edit/Footnote:
And, BTW, "Boris" is a liar when he said "I NEVER admitted they lined up from the POV of the TSBD's 6th floor window", as Bud correctly pointed out in this post.
BORIS SAID:
[DVP said: "We've got a bullet hole of entry in JFK's upper back."]
Proving the SBT, of course!
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
That's just the first part, "Boris". Why would you choose to isolate just the FIRST bullet hole? (Oh, that's right. CTers are Isolation Specialists. I forgot.)
BORIS SAID:
[DVP said: "And another bullet hole of entry in Gov. Connally's upper back."]
AND wrist, AND thigh, AND chest. Proving lots and lots of bullet wounds indeed. It's like James Caan in the Godfather...if he was only shot once.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Once the bullet gets into Connally, the SBT is pretty much over (and proved).
Why?
Because....
"He [Governor Connally] seemed to have been struck by just one bullet." -- Dr. Robert R. Shaw; 11/22/63 Press Conference at Parkland Memorial Hospital*
* At 14:04 in this CBS-TV video.
Also -- John Connally himself was always of the opinion that he was hit by just ONE single bullet on November 22. In all the interviews he ever gave after that date, he never even hinted at the notion that he might have been struck by more than just a single missile.
BORIS SAID:
[DVP said: "And a third bullet hole in the lower part of the front of JFK's neck."]
The bullet hole was above the necktie, and you KNOW it.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Bullshit. The bullet exited JFK right AT the level of the knot in his necktie --- and you know it.
More "Necktie" talk here.
BORIS SAID:
[DVP said: "And we've got no bullets inside JFK's body at all."]
Since there was no transit and someone flushed the chest x-rays down the toilet, how would you know that?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Because....
DR. JAMES HUMES [at 2 H 364] -- "We had made X-rays of the head, neck and torso of the President..."
ARLEN SPECTER -- "What did those X-rays disclose with respect to the possible presence of a missile in the President's body?"
DR. HUMES -- "They showed no evidence of a missile in the President's body at any point."
Go ahead and call Dr. Humes a rotten liar, "Boris".
BORIS SAID:
[DVP said: "Now, without ANYTHING ELSE to go on except the above facts (and they certainly are "facts", wouldn't you agree?)..."]
You must be joking.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yeah, I am. After all, who would ever even BEGIN to consider the possibility that one bullet could go through two men who each have a bullet (entrance) hole in their respective upper backs, with the first victim also having a bullet hole in his throat, while the two victims are lined up perfectly to accept a single bullet from the only known and verified source of gunfire in Dealey Plaza?
A single bullet traversing the victims via those conditions is just out of the question, isn't it, "Boris"? A much more logical solution is that multiple bullets struck the victims, and then the extra bullets either vanished on their own or were dug out of the victims and deep-sixed by unknown plotters. Right, Mr. Boris?
BORIS SAID:
[DVP said: "...what would be the likely conclusion that a reasonable person should reach regarding whether or not one bullet went through both men?"]
That more than one bullet did some of the damage. And at least one of them was frangible.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Not consistent with the evidence. Where's the other bullet (or bullets)?
And if Kennedy's throat wound was an ENTRANCE wound (which you likely believe, right?), now you've got many more problems, don't you? E.G.,
...Why did TWO bullets hitting soft flesh and no bone decide to just stop dead inside JFK?
...Where did those TWO bullets go after entering and never exiting?
...Why wasn't Connally's wrist more severely damaged by the THIRD bullet that entered the victims via this absurd multi-bullet scenario?
...And, given the angles involved, how did a bullet manage to hit Connally but NOT hit Kennedy? According to many investigators (including the Warren Commission's Albert Jenner, in the video on this webpage [also embedded below]), that would have been impossible given all the known factors about the shooting and the gunman's location.
David Von Pein
May 10-12, 2018
