THE ULTIMATE IN
“SINGLE-BULLET THEORY”
DENIAL AMONG
CONSPIRACY THEORISTS....
ROBERT PRUDHOMME SAID:
There is no doubt now that the CE 399 in the photo above [
this photo] was not fired from a 6.5mm Carcano rifle, nor any other 6.5mm calibre rifle.
PAT SPEER SAID:
It seems apparent you [Robert] think these bullets were all fired in a .25 caliber rifle, and that the FBI and Army shooters pretended these bullets had been fired in the rifle found in the building.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
And Robert Prudhomme, therefore, also has no choice but to believe one of the following two things....
1.) The "real killer" shot JFK with a .25 caliber weapon, even though a large part of the "plot" was to frame a patsy named Oswald who owned a 6.5mm. Carcano weapon.
or...
2.) Lee Harvey Oswald wasn't being "set up" as a patsy IN ADVANCE of the assassination.
I'm quite confident that either option above is very unpalatable to a prolific rewriter of history (and the facts) like Robert Prudhomme.
ROBERT PRUDHOMME SAID:
I did a careful measurement on paper of the bullet designated in the photo as CE 399.
I drew a straight line parallel to the sides of the bullet...
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Nobody can simply draw lines on a picture of a bullet (or on any picture) and expect perfect, exacting information. It's impossible to extract three-dimensional measurements from a two-dimensional object without applying photogrammetry skills. But perhaps Bob P. doesn't realize this fact....
"Photogrammetry describes how three-dimensional spatial relationships can be extracted from two-dimensional photographs or images. Without taking into account these relationships, accurate interpretations of two-dimensional images are impossible. In short, you cannot simply draw or overlay lines on a two-dimensional image and extract three-dimensional information." -- Dale K. Myers
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/faq_01.htm
"I don't know how many ways to say it, but let me try it this way -- no one can deduce a three dimensional angle in space by holding a ruler or protractor against a two dimensional photograph or computer monitor. The principles of photogrammetry explain why this methodology leads to false results." -- Dale K. Myers; August 20, 2008
-----------------
Did you apply photogrammetry to your detailed measurements of the CE399 photo(s), Robert? If not, your calculations are pretty much worthless.
But just ignore that fact about not being able to derive perfect data from two-dimensional objects, Bobby. It'll be better for your constant attacks on Robert Frazier if you do. And there will probably still be at least two or three misguided souls on the Internet who will be foolish enough to believe your crackpot
".25 caliber" theories. After all, never underestimate the type of crap the public will buy. Even David Lifton's book got up to #5 on the best-sellers list. So there's hope for your outlandish rantings too.
ROBERT PRUDHOMME SAID:
Of course, Dale, David and the WC know everything there is to know about the SBT from watching the Z film, which just happens to be two dimensional, but that's different, right? :)
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Dale Myers applied photogrammetry techniques before finalizing his work on his Z-Film computer model. Therefore, the computer was able to accurately extract 3D info from the 2D film.
Did you apply those techniques, Bob?
Footnote/Addendum....
Pat Speer has very likely made the very same mistake of not applying photogrammetry when he attempts to prove that the paper bag Detective L.D. Montgomery is holding in
these pictures is not the same paper bag that appears in the National Archives today as Commission Exhibit No. 142.
ROBERT PRUDHOMME SAID:
No kidding, Dave? He went right to town on it with all the high tech equipment, did he? Is that how he made the following mistakes in his cartoon?
1. Dale Myers shows the Magic Bullet going straight through the neck, almost at midline. This course would have taken the MB through the cervical vertebrae. Yet, autopsy x-rays show pristine cervical vertebrae, requiring the MB to pass completely outside of the C7 vertebrae, yet still manage to tear up the right side of JFK's trachea. It is estimated the MB had to be travelling from right to left through JFK's neck at a minimum angle of 23° to accomplish this, yet Dale's cartoon shows the bullet going almost straight through.
2. Dale Myers shows the Magic Bullet entering John Connally's back and exiting his chest, implying a through and through wound that pierced Connally's right lung. According to the medical report, the MB did not penetrate Connally's right lung but, rather, stayed on the OUTSIDE of Connally's rib cage, following the outside of the 5th rib for 10 cm.
3. Dale Myers shows the Magic Bullet entering the palm side of Connally's wrist, and exiting the back side of his wrist. Once again, the medical report contradicts this and tells us the MB entered the back side of the wrist, and exited the palm or bottom side.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
All of
Dale Myers' work is excellent (of course). But I certainly don't need Dale's computer model to demonstrate what the Zapruder Film has vividly shown since the day of the assassination---and that is
one bullet going through the two victims at Z224.
If you, Bob P., can't see the SBT in action in the following Z-Film clips, it's not my fault. But I sure can see it. And so can most people who aren't visually impaired....
(2).gif)
ROBERT PRUDHOMME SAID:
Dave,
One question, and one question only. Answer this question to my satisfaction, and I will join the Lone Nuts.
Dale Myers' cartoon shows the Magic Bullet entering JFK's back very close to the spinal mid line, even though many reports place the back entrance wound 1.5-2 inches to the right of the spinal mid line.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You don't think 1.5 or 2 inches is "very close to the spinal mid line"?
The JFK entry point in Myers' model looks fine to me....
http://jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/concl2b.htm
Here's a question for you, Bob....
What do you see here? Why is John Connally flinching his shoulders here? And what is causing the look we're seeing on his face? This clip ends at Z225....
ROBERT PRUDHOMME SAID:
Sorry, Dave, you're ignoring my question. I really want to hear your answer on this, and I will hound you on this forever, if need be.
Let's look at the still from Myers' cartoon you posted:
Does it look like the bullet is entering JFK's back 1.5-2 inches to the right of his spine? Hardly. Dale pretty much shows the bullet going through the spine. Not only that but, if the sniper's nest is 9 degrees laterally separated from the midline of the limo, why does Myers show the path of the bullet almost parallel to the limo?
And, finally, how did the Magic Bullet go straight through JFK's neck, as shown by Myers, without hitting any cervical vertebrae?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Dale Myers' model works fine, Bob. Here are some additional images from his computer animation, plus JFK's autopsy photo on the right. The back wound is just where we find it in the autopsy picture, slightly to the right of the spinal column. Click to enlarge.....
Now, Bob, how about answering my last question from a little bit earlier regarding Connally. Is all of this shrugging and flinching and mouth-opening and grimacing and lapel-flipping being caused by something OTHER than a bullet?
Let us hear your
anti-SBT explanation with respect to the things we can see happening to Governor John B. Connally in the following Zapruder Film clip which ends at Z225.
I await your astute and stellar observations. ....
JAMES R. GORDON SAID:
David,
What you are seeing is a film sequence that has not been compensated for camera movement.
I agree looking at the sequence it does indeed suggest that Connally's left shoulder is rising.
However - and this is important - the individual frames do not show that. Taking the last frame in your sequence, there is a large rise in the left shoulder and it is very close to the bottom of Jackie's hair.
However, the individual last frame in your sequence does not show that.
Forgetting the contribution that frame sequences make to the observable image - i.e. a film strip and an individual frame is not the same - there is no similarity between the last frame in your sequence and what is suggested by the last frame in your gif.
If what your gif suggests is reality, then that last frame should also demonstrate this lifting of the left shoulder.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
James,
You're wrong, as proven by the comparison Z-Film frames below which I culled from my in-motion gif clip. Connally's left shoulder is unquestionably higher in Z225 than it was in Z222 (and the last frame in my gif clip is, indeed, Z225, not Z227, as you have incorrectly labeled it in your photo, James):
Plus, there is this toggling clip below of Z224 and Z225. Nobody can possibly deny that Connally's shoulders are RISING between these two Zapruder frames. You aren't going to deny that, are you James? And look at the movement of Connally's
necktie in this clip too. That's also very significant. He's flinching without a doubt. Now what do you suppose could have caused this kind of a reflex action in Mr. Connally at this particular time in Mr. Zapruder's home movie?....
JAMES R. GORDON SAID:
Also note, the area where your gif suggests Connally's left shoulder is rising coincides with the area of Jackie's jacket which happens to be black!!!!!
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Wrong. The trim around Jackie's jacket isn't black at all. It's navy blue. The dark blue color of her suit jacket's trim is easily discernible in the bright sunlight....
IAN LLOYD SAID:
I think that what you are seeing is not JBC's shoulder rising but is actually a shadow cast on to Jackie's jacket, probably by Nellie Connally's head, as the car moves forward and she herself moves. I think that JBC is just twisting in the seat.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
And do you think it's also just a coincidence that Mr. Connally's necktie starts to do a dance and starts RISING and curling up at the exact same instant we see the so-called "shadow" being cast on Jackie? (His "twisting" in his seat caused the necktie to do its dance too, is that correct?)
And what about Connally's facial expressions at this exact same instant too? His mouth opens at exactly Z225. It looks to me like he's grimacing. And that grimace starts at precisely the same instant we see his shoulders flinch and his necktie rise and curl up.
Conspiracy theorists like to say that
I am the one in denial when discussing the JFK case. I think I can turn the tables on the CTers in this particular discussion. Because it takes a large amount of "SBT denial" in order to be able to dismiss all of these things we see happening to Governor Connally in Z-frames 224 and 225:
Shoulders hunch up (flinch).
Right shoulder is pushed very slightly downward and forward.
Mouth opens.
Distressed look on face.
Suit coat bulges outward (aka: the lapel flip).
Necktie rises.
And then when we go up one more frame--to frame number 226--we see Connally's right arm start to rise (at the exact same instant when President Kennedy's arms begin to rise as well). And it was, indeed, Mr. Connally's
right arm (wrist) that was struck by a bullet in Dealey Plaza.
JAMES R. GORDON SAID ALL THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
James,
But it's not just Connally's left shoulder that hunches up at Z225. His right shoulder rises slightly too. How can there be any doubt of it? I think the frames you used are too small and not zoomed in enough to show the very quick rise then fall of both of Connally's shoulders.
You really think this apparent shoulder movement is ALL just shadows or some other photo anomaly? Come now....
Also....
If anyone wants to suggest that John Connally's body could possibly be casting a shadow onto Jackie in the Zapruder Film, that is impossible. The shadows in Dealey Plaza were falling toward the NORTH, not the SOUTH. We can easily see that fact in the Altgens picture [below]. Any shadow being cast by John Connally would have fallen in JFK's direction, not Jackie's....
.jpg)
Governor Connally's very brief shoulder flinch is no shadow. It's Connally's body tensing up and involuntarily flinching after Oswald's bullet just pierced him in the back.
If it were a shadow being cast by Nellie Connally's head onto Mrs. Kennedy's pink jacket, then it sure came and went incredibly fast, didn't it?
IAN LLOYD SAID:
As the limo turns towards its left as it proceeds down the street, I would imagine it is eminently possible for a shadow to have been cast from Nellie's head onto Jackie's jacket.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
And you think the shadow on Jackie just disappears after a few frames? And it just HAPPENS to look exactly like Connally's shoulder rising and falling. Because in the gif below, we can certainly see no shadow being cast on the left side of Jackie's suit jacket in the frames immediately after Z230....
And what about John Connally's RIGHT shoulder? It's rising slightly at exactly Z225 too. Is that just a "shadow" as well?
Governor Connally is flinching at Z225, Ian. The Z-Film proves it. And I think you just don't want to accept that reality. Nor does any other CTer in the world.
JON G. TIDD SAID:
Anyone who bases a narrowly focused argument on a portion of the Z-film is building a structure on an unreliable foundation, IMO.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Jon,
We all know that even if Bullet CE399 was somehow captured in flight on Zapruder's movie as it sliced through both Kennedy and Connally, there would be many conspiracy theorists who would still deny the viability of the Single-Bullet Theory.
This discussion revolving around what people see in the Z-Film is a prime example of CTer denial in action. Even when there is fairly firm proof of John Connally reacting to the bullet striking him prior to Z225, it's still not nearly good enough "proof" for CTers who (for some odd reason) continue to deny the SBT. (I mean, even WITH the SBT in place, those CTers can still believe in the make-believe Grassy Knoll shooter and, hence, a conspiracy.)
And so what we get is one excuse after another for dismissing the visual signs of the SBT in the Z-Film. It's quite humorous to see all the lame excuses the CTers have for tossing the SBT in the gutter.
And this simultaneous movement of both JFK's and Connally's right arms is merely a "coincidence" too. Right?....
MARK KNIGHT SAID:
The WC Report is Mr. Von Pein's "bible."
His faith is unshakable: "They said it, I believe it, end of story."
Even if the facts don't line up well. Notice how many of his replies rely on "must have" or "could only have" type responses...or which ones cause him to bring forth "straw man" arguments.
Now, I'm NOT a CTer. I'm not sure WHO killed JFK. But there are so many of the Warren Report conclusions that are either demonstrably false or which are extended speculation that I no longer believe the report.
I hope we discover who killed JFK. Since even Jesse Curry couldn't place Oswald "at that window, with that rifle" at the moment the fatal shots were fired, I think the case is basically unsolved. Now, if evidence is someday uncovered that it definitely was Oswald at that window, firing a rifle, to the exclusion of any other human being, at the moment the fatal shots were fired, THEN the Oswald-did-it story becomes irrefutable. Until then, it's simply speculation.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
The Oswald-Did-It story is reasonable and rational speculation based on the EVIDENCE.
It's the conspiracy theorists who seem to possess the silly desire to make Lee Harvey Oswald blameless for all three attempted murders he committed in the year 1963 (Walker, Kennedy, and Tippit; and it's four if we count the attempted murder of Dallas policeman M.N. McDonald). But the
evidence surrounding those murder attempts does just the opposite. And isn't it the
evidence that's normally utilized to solve crimes?
Now, if someone could some day prove to me that the large amount of evidence that points to Oswald in the Walker, Kennedy, and Tippit crimes was
all fake, then I'd have no choice but to turn in my "Lone Assassin" badge. To date, however, nobody has come close to proving to me that
any of the evidence in those cases was fake.
To use Mark Knight's own words:
"Until then, it's simply speculation" that the evidence that exists against Lee Harvey Oswald is not legitimate.
IN A LATER DISCUSSION, DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
What about John Connally's grimace at Z225? (Or don't you see that either, James [Gordon]?)
What about Connally opening his mouth at exactly Z225?
And what about that hat/arm flip starting at Z226? Is this another "distortion" in the film?....
BTW, James.....
There's no way that Connally's flinching/shoulder shrugging is just "distortion" in the film [as James Gordon suggested in
this post]. And the movement of Connally's NECKTIE at the exact same time as the flinching seals the deal, IMO. Or do you think Connally's tie movement is just "video distortion" too?....
JAMES R. GORDON SAID:
David,
You are making my point for me.
This arm movement you talk about is not in the individual slides. If it is a factual element of data,
it has to be in the individual slides. If it is not on the individual slides but it is on the movie, then it is a result of distortion of some sort.
Movies
do not create changes in the data, they
reflect the changes in data. Put another way, the arm/shoulder cannot be seen to move in the movie if that movement cannot be seen in the individual frames.
Now, I agree in your clip the right arm/shoulder [of John Connally] does indeed appear to move. But that change is not on frame 224 — therefore it has to be some kind of distortion on the film.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You must be joking, James.
You're coming up with lots of lame excuses to totally discount ALL of the obvious signs of distress on JBC in the Z-Film. You're now even denying that Connally raised his right arm quickly at Z226.
But it took me three seconds to confirm you don't know what you're talking about. The following three frames are from
Costella's Z-Film frames at James Fetzer's website. These are frames 224, 225, and 226. And every single thing that you say is NOT in these frames, I can easily see.
E.G., the hunching of JBC's shoulders is easily discernible when toggling between frames 224 and 225 here. And the white blob that appears in Z226 is also very visible, and that white blob is, of course, Connally's light-colored Stetson hat as he rapidly raises it in front of his face after Oswald's bullet has ripped through his wrist 2 frames earlier.
All of this is easily seen if you line these three frames up in separate tabs in your browser and then toggle back and forth between them.....
FRAME 224 .... FRAME 225 .... FRAME 226
JAMES R. GORDON SAID:
David,
I have no idea what you are talking about when in Z224/225 gif you mention John Connally's tie? What point are you making?
At the moment I am just working on your Z225/226 gif. Were you aware that between these two frames Zapruder lowered his camera? That is why you see such movement that suggests to you that Connally has been injured and is flinching. When these frames are stabilised, all we see is Connally turning to his left.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
But the 225-226 clip isn't the one showing the flinching. It's the 224-225 clip that shows the flinch/shoulder-hunching, and quite clearly. And this two-frame GIF below looks pretty "stabilized" to me.
And look at Connally's necktie here. It's "bulging outward", perfectly consistent with the movement we would expect to see in a tie being worn by someone who has just FLINCHED, which we also see in the 224-225 clip.
So what's causing the "tie bulge", James, if it's NOT also related to the flinching we see Connally doing here?....
DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:
James Gordon seems to want to come up with SOME type of excuse so that he won't have to call Governor Connally's movements what they really are -- "flinching", "arm-raising", and "grimacing".
Conspiracy theorists do the exact same kind of crap with
JFK's forward head movement between frames 312 and 313. They say it's merely a "blur", or some kind of "video anomaly". It can't REALLY be the President's head moving forward though, they'll say.
But how many of these
"It's not really what it seems to be" excuses is one excuse too many?
JAMES R. GORDON SAID:
There is a serious problem here. You are suggesting that these frames - especially from 225 to 228 - demonstrate that Connally has been struck and is reacting to that. I agree something extremely strange is going on - but what is causing this reaction is very blurred frames being run one after the other. It is the consequence of the blurred frames that suggest Connally is wounded. It is not Connally, because basically in these frames it is impossible to see him clearly or indeed what he is doing.
Now 224 into 225 really did puzzle me. To be fair, I did wonder if indeed we were seeing a reaction by Connally. And the truth is that you are seeing a reaction by John Connally between these two frames. Between 224 and 225 Connally turns around 20º to his left. That is what you are seeing. The change in the left shoulder is not a reaction to the bullet -- it is a movement by Connally to his left and a change in the position of Connally's shoulder. It may look like Connally's left shoulder is flinching, but actually it is being turned to Connally's left as he is turning his body left.
As I pointed out to you in an earlier post--and you did agree with me--between 224 and 230 John Connally is turning his body to his left. What allows you to think that Connally has been injured in these frames is:
a) that 20º turn between 224 and 225
b) the total blurred distortion in frames 226 - 228
That is why it is being suggested that Connally has been wounded, when actually Connally is turning to his left.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
This is hilarious. And absolutely mind-boggling, to boot. The levels of total denial the CTers will rise to in order to ignore the obvious signs of John Connally being in distress in Z225-Z230.
It couldn't be more obvious that Connally's shoulders are shrugging from a flinch starting at Z225, and yet I'm supposed to believe it only looks that way because JBC is turning to his left. Does EVERY "left turn" made by all limo occupants give the false appearance of "shoulder shrugging", James? Get real.
And I guess you still want to ignore Connally's moving tie, eh? Is his tie bulging outward due to his "left turn" too? And the startled look that we can see on his face starting in Z225 too? And the opening of the mouth? Are none of these things enough to give you pause to even consider the
possibility that Connally has just been shot and is reacting to that shot in an involuntary manner starting at Z225?
And then there's the hat flip at Z226 too. Are we really to believe that JBC's arm-raising is also NOT indicative of Connally reacting to a bullet---even when we know JBC was struck by a bullet in that very SAME right arm/wrist that's flipping upward ultra-fast at Z226? You're not going to pass off the hat/arm flip as "video distortion" too, are you Jim?
JAMES R. GORDON SAID:
David,
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about!!
It is perfectly evident to me that you have no IT skills. You have made no attempt to discover whether the gif, you are using yet again, has corrupt frames…….which indeed it has. Tomorrow I will show you the quality of the frames you are basing this nonsense on. You have made no attempt to determine whether the gifs you are showing to this forum actually show what you say they show.
[...]
I need to point out that your poor research of the gifs you are presenting on this forum really angers me. This tie evidence is only part of this present gif, but until I look at it tomorrow I will not be able to say why the tie does what it is doing. Go back to the movie I described earlier and you will see the tie’s movement does not happen there. Whatever is making you think the tie is moving or what, is only part of this very poor gif.
That should bother you that one gif shows this tie movement, whereas the other one does not. If the tie is doing what you suggest, then both movies should show it. In addition, the actual slides do not support this point about the tie. The only evidence that shows this tie movement is a gif that has corrupt frames.
How you are able to tell expression of such poor--and indeed even distorted frames--is beyond me! Some of these frames are really distorted, yet you can tell expression.
I note
you are now saying that Connally’s right shoulder is rising. It is turning to its left as Connally turns his body. That is what you are seeing. It is clear to me that you are basing everything on a very poor gif and are not verifying your findings with the frames themselves. I find it of some interest that you are clearly not interested that the frames on which this gif is based do not agree with what the gif is suggesting to you.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Incredible. What a pack of deniers we've got here. You guys win the 2015 prize in the category of....
"Failure To See The Obvious".
Congratulations.
For the record, I have several other versions of the Z-Film (collected from various online sources, that is), and I just checked each one, and every single version I have shows exactly the same reactions on the part of John Connally. I'll post them all again below.
So, I guess James Gordon's next move is to tell me that ALL of these clips (which have come from different Internet sources over the years) are filled with nothing but "corrupt" frames too. ....
Shoulders rising (and tie bulging outward):
Different version---with the shoulders also rising and the tie moving in the exact same manner as in the clip above this one (just an illusion, Jim?):
And here's another, again showing the very distinct rise of Connally's shoulders, plus the hat flip, plus the tie movement:
And here's yet another source for the same Z-Film scene, again showing JBC's shoulders hiking up at Z225 (also "corrupt", James?):
If James Gordon comes up with more lame excuses to deny what his eyes are seeing in all of the above versions of the Z-Film, he'll win a new trophy --- the "Robert Groden Award" --- in memory of Mr. Groden's fiasco at the O.J. Simpson civil trial, where Groden was shown 30 different pictures of Simpson wearing the very same shoes, but Groden still insisted one of the photos showing the same shoes was a fake.
JAMES R. GORDON SAID:
David,
Maybe you should not be scolding fellow forum members until you have done some homework.
You say to Robert [in
this post],
“Don’t tell me YOU can't see the tie moving in the various clips I provided earlier, Bob. You aren't going to deny that John Connally's tie IS moving around at Z225, are you? Take a look again…”
In doing so, you are suggesting that he ought to see what is evident if only he looked.
What you are seeing is a consequence that between Z 223 and Z 224, the colour as well as the position of the tie and the silver roof support clash.
In Z224, the roof support cuts through the tie so that we only see the upper and lower parts of the tie. In-between is the roof support.
These frames shown through a gif suggest the tie is moving when actually it is not. The shape of the tie has changes because of this clash.
You really ought to do your homework.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
This is getting more hysterical with each passing hour.
James Gordon provides further proof that he's lost in the woods. James now seems to think that
I think Connally's tie is moving between 223 and 224. I never claimed any such thing. The tie isn't moving (or "bulging") between 223 and 224, and I have never said it was. The tie is bulging outward, without a doubt, between
Z224 and Z225, just like I've been saying all along. Why James is moving the time period up to 223-224 is anyone's guess. ~shrug~
The way things are going now, it looks like it will only be a few days more before James Gordon will be denying the existence of John B. Connally in the car
at all.
And once again I want to point out to James my previous posts in this thread
[Posts 104 and 105] which feature SIX different "versions" of the Z-Film and Z-Film GIF clips, which I collected over the years from multiple different sources. They are not from the exact same source that James thinks contains "corrupt" frames. And one of those six sources is the 1998 MPI digital version of the Zapruder Film. And surely James isn't going to say that MPI's version consists of "corrupt" frames. Are you, Jim?
And in all six of those Zapruder Film examples that I provided, Governor Connally's reactions between Z224 and Z227 can be seen. Every single one. So Jim will have to call ALL SIX sources "corrupt" in order for Connally's tie NOT to be moving at Z224-Z225 and for Connally's shoulders NOT to be flinching at Z224-Z225 and for Connally's right arm NOT to be jerked skyward at Z225-Z226.
Good luck with all that, Jim.
JAMES R. GORDON SAID:
David,
If you applaud John Connally's support for the Warren Commission [such as in
THIS POST], then I assume you also support his emphatic claim that he was not injured with the first shot. That he was in the process of turning to his left when he was shot. That is exactly what he is doing between Z 222 and 230.
Why do you feel Connally is right to support the Commission but wrong about when he was injured?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
He's not wrong about when he was injured, James.
John Connally's testimony and his other comments in interviews are in perfect harmony with the SBT and the overall
"Lone Assassin Fired Three Shots" scenario.
Connally ALWAYS said he was not hit by the first shot, but was hit by Shot #2. That's exactly what I think happened too. So I don't think JBC is "wrong" at all. He's 100% right. And he was in the process of turning to his left when he was hit by the SBT bullet at Z224.
As for JBC's anti-SBT stance, that is something he HAD to have gotten mostly from his wife Nellie. We certainly know that JBC
himself couldn't know if JFK was hit by the first bullet or the second bullet, because JBC always said he never physically SAW Kennedy after the shooting began....
"I never saw either one of them [JFK or Jackie] after the firing started." -- John B. Connally; 1964 Warren Commission Testimony
Regarding Connally's
"The President had slumped" remark in the bedside interview with Martin Agronsky....
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/What Did John Connally See?
PAT SPEER SAID:
While it would be most convenient for your position, David, to believe Nellie was the only obstacle between big John and the single-bullet theory, this is a puff of smoke burped out by those refusing to look at the record.
1. Connally's initial belief was that the first two shots--the ones he was later told were fired by Oswald using a bolt-action rifle--were extremely close together--and were fired by an automatic weapon.
2. At the request of the Warren Commission, he studied the Zapruder film, and came to believe Kennedy was hit before going behind the sign, while he was hit just after coming out from behind the sign.
3. He trusted his doctor Robert Shaw, who told him the bullet hitting him had not hit Kennedy first.
So it wasn't just Nellie that told him the SBT was incorrect--it was everything he trusted...his ears, his eyes, his doctor, AND his wife.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Pat,
And yet, despite all that information being gathered by John Connally, he was still all wrong about the SBT.
But Connally did say he thought the SBT was "possible" when asked about it by CBS News in 1967....
JOHN CONNALLY -- "The only way that I could ever reconcile my memory of what happened and what occurred, with respect to the One-Bullet Theory is .... it had to be the SECOND bullet that might have hit us both."
EDDIE BARKER -- "Do you believe, Governor Connally, that the first bullet could have missed, the second one hit both of you, and the third one hit President Kennedy?"
JOHN CONNALLY -- "That's possible. That's possible."
~~~~~
So, unlike nearly all "Internet CTers", at least the
Texas Governor was a reasonable critic of the single-bullet conclusion.
JAMES R. GORDON SAID:
Having studied these frames - Z 222 to Z 230 - it is clear that what is happening is that John Connally is turning his body to the left so that by Z 230 he is actually facing forward. These frames in a gif would demonstrate that - were Z 226 and Z 227 and Z 228 not partially or wholly blurred. Unfortunately they are blurred and when incorporated into a gif these same frames throw up extraordinary results. It is these same extraordinary results that allow members like you [David Von Pein] to suggest that these very frames actually suggest that John Connally is reacting to being struck by a bullet when - in fact - he has not been struck.
Aside from your statement about the tie, nothing you say about these frames stands up to serious scrutiny. That leads me to wonder who is it, that is actually in
“total denial.”
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Let me try this approach....
1.) James R. Gordon knows for a fact that John B. Connally was shot by a rifle bullet on 11/22/63 at a point in time which James also knows is very close in "real time" to Zapruder frames 224-230 (give or take a FRACTION OF A SECOND).
2.) Therefore, since #1 is so obviously true, there is probably a point in the Zapruder home movie that shows Connally's initial reaction(s) to being hit by the bullet that injured him.
3.) As I have illustrated about 99 times now, Zapruder frames 224 to 227 indicate some definite changes in Governor Connally's appearance that could very easily be said to be "involuntary startle reactions" to some kind of external stimulus.
4.) When factoring in #2 and #3, in tandem, what do you suppose the odds are that the movements by John Connally seen in Zapruder frames 224-227 are movements that have
nothing whatsoever to do with the injuries sustained by John Connally at almost that exact same time (give or take a FRACTION OF A SECOND)?
5.) There are no frames in the Zapruder movie AFTER approx. Z230 in which any kind of "jerky" or "startle" type reactions can be seen with respect to Governor Connally's movements.
With the above five things in mind, James, do you still want to stick with this conclusion?....
"It is these same extraordinary results that allow members like you to suggest that these very frames actually suggest that John Connally is reacting to being struck by a bullet when - in fact - he has not been struck." -- J. Gordon
JAMES R. GORDON SAID:
You agreed that between Z 222 and Z 230 John Connally is indeed seen to be turning left. And this is critical to this whole story. Between Z 222 and Z 230 John Connally is turning left to face forward. The dispute here is that in making this turn you are interpreting moments in this turn as demonstrating evidence that John Connally has been wounded when in fact all that is happening is that John Connally is turning to his left.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Let me repeat my earlier question that I asked you a day or two ago....
"It couldn't be more obvious that Connally's shoulders are shrugging from a flinch starting at Z225, and yet I'm supposed to believe it only looks that way because JBC is turning to his left. Does EVERY "left turn" made by all limo occupants give the false appearance of "shoulder shrugging", James? Get real."
JAMES R. GORDON SAID:
Nor does John Connally’s hat begin to flip at Z 226 forwards.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
That's an astonishing statement, James, in light of the fact that I've already provided you with SIX different versions of the Z-Film (collected by me from various Internet sources, including the MPI
"Image Of An Assassination" digital version), which ALL show the hat flip beginning at the exact same moment--Z226.
Here once again is one of those six versions produced earlier, and this is a good quality version, which positively proves you are wrong regarding the hat flip. It's occurring at Z226, just like in all of my other versions. Deny it if you desire, but it's here just the same:
JAMES R. GORDON SAID:
These “jerky” and “startled” reactions that you talk about only occur between Z 226 and Z 228. And these are blurred frames. These reactions have nothing to do with John Connally, they are a consequence of Zapruder moving his camera...
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Incredible, Jim. Simply incredible. Your denial has reached a new zenith. It's not an easy task to totally dismiss so many VISUAL clues about John Connally's reactions that everybody can easily see right before their own eyes. But you have managed to accomplish it. My congratulations go out to you.
DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:
BTW, another thing that is happening with John Connally in the clip below is that his head moves DOWNWARD just slightly at Z225....
This can be "measured" (at least in part) by looking at Jackie and then comparing the level of Connally's head to Jackie's in Z225. JBC's head moves a little LOWER than Jackie's head behind him. This type of head movement (akin to a "ducking" motion) is also in perfect harmony with all of Connally's other movements at Z225 --- the flinching shoulders, the opening of his mouth, the startled look (which is not there on his face at Z224, at least as far as I can tell; but, I'll grant you, the frames aren't super clear, but they are clear enough to make these basic determinations, IMO). And I also detect Connally's eyes closing shut for one frame at Z225 too. Again, perfectly consistent with an involuntary flinch right after he was shot.
So, we've got....
Flinching of the shoulders.
Scrunching of the head downward.
Mouth opening.
Eyes closing.
Lapel flipping.
All in just Z224 and Z225 alone.
Then, just one frame later, that hat flip---which James says is just a figment of my imagination too....
And yet, even with all of the above, according to CTers, Connally HASN'T been hit by a bullet yet. The bullet's going to hit him in another one second or so (probably even less than that). And his RIGHT WRIST is going to get smashed by that bullet---which, per CTers, HASN'T yet hit him as of Z226, even though the same RIGHT ARM/WRIST goes flying upward at 226. Go figure that. I sure can't.
That's a lot of stuff for me to be fooled by, don't you think? It's a whole array of things in Z224-227 that James Gordon is filing in his folder labelled....
Things that appear to be happening to John B. Connally in the Z-Film, but aren't really happening at all. It's all due to either "corrupt" video frames, Mr. Zapruder's camera movement, and/or the simple fact that Governor Connally is merely turning to his left in his seat.
Yeah, sure James. And I'm going to win TWO lotteries next week.
DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:
Let's have a look at the private message I received on the morning of May 16, 2015, from
Education Forum administrator and moderator James R. Gordon....
[Quote On:]
Posting privileges removed
David,
I know this should not happen, but you have really got under my skin.
I am really very angry with your sarcastic mockery of myself and your arrogant self conceit.
I understand this is not the way I should behave, but I am just so angry at the way you have treated me that I have resorted to something I would not normally do.
Sorry.
James
[End Quote.]
Here is my reply to James at 12:37 PM EDT on May 16, 2015....
[Quote On:]
That's okay, James. I was halfway expecting something like this to occur, what with you being the head man at The Education Forum.
But to be totally clear, James, you DO realize, of course, that I have not broken a single forum rule during our discussion about John Connally and the Single-Bullet Theory. Right? And if "sarcastic mockery" were truly legitimate grounds for having posting privileges suspended at your forum, then I dare say that more than half of your current members would have long ago suffered the same penalty that you just imposed upon me.
Regards,
David Von Pein
[End Quote.]
JAMES R. GORDON SAID:
David,
You misunderstand the present administration: I am not the head man. When this administration [at
The Education Forum] came together, the leader then and now is Kathy [Becket]. We do allow each member to act independently and that is what you saw today [5/16/15]. And if truth be told, I am aware I really did act before thinking. I was very angry and it was maybe intemperate to act as I did.
However, this situation has raised issues that I had not thought about which may - and stress may - not be fully covered by our guidance to members. However, the administration see this guidance as more a work in progress than fixed statutes.
I accept that you have a very firm understanding of the assassination, and I do not expect that to change. However, the way you treat members - like you have done with me - and humiliate and insult them has raised a serious question. The
thread on the SBT is one where members really do want an open discussion. However, although members raised questions for you, you simply brushed them away. One member of the admin team said to me that you
“will always make light of any "inconvenient" [to you] facts, and will then ridicule anyone who supports those facts.” I would hope that - even if that is the case now - it would not always remain the case and that you could be more positively involved in debate.
This forum needs someone with your grounding in and understanding of the Warren Commission - but I have been wondering since I suspended your privileges whether the EF needs someone who looks down on those who hold a different opinion to the assassination that you hold. If you are just going to inform fellow members of your opinion and those of the Commission, as opposed to openly discussing issues that members really want to discuss, then I am not sure what the EF benefits from this - let alone what you benefit from it.
I would be interested in hearing your thinking on this issue.
James.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
James,
I think I
have been "openly discussing" various issues at the EF forum. Yes, my opinion is pretty firm on the "LN" and "WC" side of things, but that's because I believe ALL of the physical evidence supports Oswald's guilt (and supports the SBT as well).
And when someone decides to (IMO) misrepresent things--as I firmly believe you have done when examining Connally's reactions in the Z-Film--then I think I should call them on it and point out those misrepresentations (and/or errors in their thinking). And most of the "LNer vs. CTer" debates, IMO, really DO come down to pointing out and correcting the misrepresentations made over and over again by the CTers on forums. I see it all the time---on Edu. Forum, on Facebook, on Duncan MacRae's forum, on McAdams' newsgroup, on IMDB---everywhere. CTers perpetuate myth after myth, year after year, and that's a big reason I post on forums today---to give the other side to anyone who cares to absorb it.
Most CTers, of course, think that it's
I who "misrepresent" the facts. I feel strongly otherwise. So there's the perpetual stalemate --- Who's right? Who's wrong? That debate will likely never end.
But, James, you are just not seeing things properly if you really think that all we're seeing in John Connally's movements in Z224-Z228 is merely a man turning to his left in his seat to face forward. I see LOTS more than that. And I think--deep down--you do too.
DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:
BTW, here's yet another GIF clip showing Zapruder frames 224 and 225. This one appears to be a little better in overall quality than the darker
Z224-225 clip that I've posted a million times previously. And in this version, we see all of the exact same things that we see in the other 224-225 clip --- Connally's shoulders rising, his mouth opening, his head moving downward slightly, and his necktie bulging outward:
JAMES R. GORDON SAID:
I acknowledge that my suspension of David Von Pein’s posting privileges was hasty and wrong. I apologise to members for making such a hasty decision and will endeavour not to act again in such a way in the future.
David Von Pein’s posting privileges have been restored [as of 9:44 PM EDT, May 16, 2015].
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Thank you, James.
BROCK T. GEORGE SAID:
I've heard CT's try to prove the HSCA right about 190 and the hit on Kennedy, in order to debunk the evidence of simultaneous JFK/JBC reaction as clearly seen in the 224-225 range. If the HSCA is right then the lapel flip would almost certainly have to be the wind and thus (in the swirling mind of some CT's) it can be discounted as evidence of a SB [Single Bullet] strike at all.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yes, Brock.
Plus, given that absurdly early Z190 timeframe for the SBT, the HSCA has to totally ignore (or maybe they just didn't see) the quick hat flip that Governor Connally performs at Z226. It's either ignoring that hat flip, or the HSCA has to claim that the "hat flip" at Z226 was part of the "delayed reaction" exhibited by Connally after the Z190 shot.
But that type of INvoluntary quick REFLEX type of reaction (the hat flip) is not something I can envision coming TWO FULL SECONDS after the wrist was actually struck by the bullet. We'd have to believe that 36 Z-Film frames passed before Connally's right arm decided to go northward. That's way too long, in my opinion.
MARK VALENTI SAID:
I realize that members [of
The Education Forum] have a decided antipathy toward DVP, but for anyone to claim that these men are not being hit at the same time, well it's ludicrous....
RON ECKER SAID:
They could have been hit at virtually the same time but not by the same bullet. Just like JFK could have been hit in the head by two virtually simultaneous shots.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I doubt either thing was possible (given the Z-Film evidence). Dale Myers' exacting
"key framing" of his computer 3D model to the Zapruder Film
itself makes it fairly evident that Ron's first suggestion couldn't have occurred (
"They could have been hit at virtually the same time but not by the same bullet").
It's pretty clear that Kennedy is in the bullet path during the critical Z-Film period in question when Connally was most likely hit by a bullet. So it looks like that bullet had NO CHOICE but to go through Kennedy first in order to get to Connally's upper back....
As for the two simultaneous head shots --- If that were the case, why is there just ONE explosion of JFK's head? Why don't we see MULTIPLE explosions of blood and brain matter if JFK had been hit two times in the head?
In other words, how could TWO separate shots to the head look so much like just ONE?....
.gif)
And I think a similar
"In other words" question can be asked of the conspiracy theorists who detest the Single-Bullet Theory so much ---
In other words, how could TWO (or more!) bullets have caused the damage to both President Kennedy and Governor Connally....and yet have those multiple bullets look so much like a SINGLE-BULLET EVENT in Abraham Zapruder's home movie AND in Commission Exhibit No. 903, to boot?
PAMELA BROWN SAID:
BTW, it is illogical to jump on the concept of a 'lapel flip'. In fact, there may well have been no 'lapel flip'. That was probably just a Posner invention, as part of his SB [Single Bullet] scenario in CC [
"Case Closed"]. There is a shadow coming through the side window of the limo. That's all...
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I disagree, Pam. As do many others ---->
CLICK HERE.
You really think this is merely a "shadow", Pam? ....
In addition, I could also make a pretty fair argument that, at least in part, Connally's necktie is bulging outward as a result of the lapel
physically touching the tie and causing it to move too. It's hard to tell, but I think what I just said about the lapel hitting the tie
could possibly have some merit.
PATRICK COLLINS SAID:
Dave, I revisited
your page and am reminded of some excellent points, especially in the micro-analysis of Connally's movements during his wounding.
However, you do not seem to allow for a scenario in which the JFK back entry shot exits the neck and flies out the limo and is lost and a separate shot hits JC [John Connally], increasing the tally by one and not two [bullets]? Rather, you focus on the neck entry and two non-transiting bullets in JFK, which of course is a poor counter argument to the SBT (I agree it's ludicrous).
I do not support this scenario, but a single shot to JFK that exits his neck is a more appropriate alternative despite the issues with angles over the bullet exiting the car to be "lost"...hence, not two extra shots, but one. Again, not an alternative I support, but it's at least a better alternative than the two extra shots.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Patrick,
The reason I concentrate more attention on the
"Two Bullets Entered Kennedy And Didn't Exit And Then Both Got Lost" anti-SBT scenario is because THAT is precisely what 99% of "Internet CTers" believe. Just ask any CTer on the forums. They'll invariably say they believe the JFK throat wound was an ENTRY wound. They almost ALWAYS say that.
Ergo, those CTers believe in the
"3 Bullets To Replace The SBT" scenario. (Except for Fetzer, who has at least four bullets to replace CE399---with all four vanishing without a trace.)
So, yes, a thru-and-thru JFK wound that somehow misses Connally is a much more reasonable CTer alternative (which is what Dr. Cyril Wecht believes, as you can see and hear for yourself
here and
here), but since nearly all conspiracy theorists that I've ever talked to online believe that JFK's throat wound was an entry, I usually bring up the "3 Bullet" substitute when discussing the anti-SBT alternative scenarios.
JAMES R. GORDON SAID:
There has been no debate on the SBT and John Connally's lapel. David Von Pein's posts - throughout
these pages - have drowned [out] any chance for fellow members discussing this issue.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Huh? Why on Earth would you say such a thing, James?
How is it that my posts regarding various other issues connected with the SBT and John Connally's reactions in the Z-Film --- which are issues that YOU yourself have commented on repeatedly in this thread --- are prohibiting other members from steering the conversation back to my thread-starting title --
"John Connally's Lapel"?
Are all other Education Forum members now somehow
gagged? And are they somehow
forced to keep quiet about the "lapel" even though this thread (like all forum threads almost always do) drifted away from the "lapel" topic and focused more on Connally's other reactions as seen in the Zapruder Film?
I'm afraid I'm forced to do another one of these (and it's almost as noticeable as the one John Connally can be seen doing in the Zapruder movie) ---->
~shrug~
JAMES R. GORDON SAID:
This thread is focusing my interest on [an] issue that - at the moment - I do not have an answer to. The issue is this: at what point does a member's right to post and discuss limit the rights of other members to also discuss? Is there a point where the rights of other members override the rights of any individual member?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Time for another one ---->
~shrug~
JAMES R. GORDON SAID:
Although this thread has reached 14 pages [as of the morning of May 19, 2015], there has been no serious debate on the issues. And what I do not know is where is the line between every member having his/her right to post and the point where an individual's right to post in [is???] limiting fellow members right to debate and discuss.
I do not have an answer to this problem at the moment.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I think a better question is:
Why is James Gordon inventing a "problem" where none seems to exist at all?
Fellow members are still free to post anything they want. (Aren't they, Jim?)
And fellow posters can steer the debate back to ONLY the topic of "John Connally's Lapel" if they want to. Right?
So what IS the "problem"? I see none--other than a "problem" being manufactured by an administrator named James Gordon who seems to have a desire to FIND some kind of "problem" with an Education Forum member he vehemently disagrees with named David R. Von Pein.
And, btw, even though I gave
this thread the title of
"John Connally's Lapel", everybody can easily see that in the thread-starting post, I talk about a whole lot of OTHER stuff besides just the "lapel". So, in reality, this thread HAS remained pretty much on course and on the rails when the TOTALITY of everything I discuss in my thread-starter is taken into account (the actual title of the thread notwithstanding).
Everyone is free to disagree with my next comment if they so desire, but....
Based on the comments I just quoted above by James Gordon, it sounds to me like James is trying his hardest to steer the topic back to ONLY the area of "John Connally's Lapel" and keep the discussion AWAY from some of Connally's other reactions seen in the Z-Film (e.g., the flinching, the grimace, the arm raising, etc.). And the only reason I can envision James wanting to do that is because he knows--deep down--that his posts in this thread have been totally defeated and flattened by my counter-arguments and various GIF clips proving that James is 100% wrong about his interpretations concerning Governor Connally's movements in frames 224 to 227 of the Zapruder Film. (IMHO.)
MARK VALENTI SAID:
James, he [John Connally] is obviously wincing in pain. His right hand flips quickly, his mouth opens in agony, his eyes shut in pain. I don't know what blurred frames have to do with changing that truth. I'm trying to understand your point, but I am not able to do so.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Amen, Mark.
And this slo-mo GIF shows Connally's initial involuntary reactions even better (this clip ends at Z225, before the arm/hat flip starts).....
And then, just one frame later, the arm/hat flip at Z226, which just happens to be the EXACT same frame when President Kennedy starts raising his right arm too. The right arms of the
two victims who were shot that day are jerking upward simultaneously. If this isn't a good solid indication that both Kennedy and Connally were hit by the very same bullet, then what is?....
JAMES R. GORDON SAID:
Mark,
Z 224 + 225 are reasonably clear frames. Therefore, running them in a gif will give an accurate account of the content of the frames translated into movement.
However, Z 226 is a little blurred. When the gif comes to translate that, it may well include errors because the image is not very clear. That said, I expect a reasonable proportion of the data in the image will still be translated.
Now Z 227 is totally blurred. What can the gif make of that image? However, it has to be translated into movement and that is why you get that massive reaction that you earlier say that if members don't see what is going on there, then there is nothing to say.
However, what is going on is the gif trying to analyse and make sense of a frame that is extremely blurred and whose data points - like Connally's head - are difficult to describe and is also in a radically different position. That is the reason you get that massive movement. It is not Connally moving, it is the gif trying to analyse very blurred frames and make sense of them.
That is what I mean.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
But James....
Once we get to the blurry frame 227,
it's all over with anyway. I.E., Connally's already been hit and he has ALREADY reacted back there in the clearer frames (Z224-225-226).
So what makes the difference whether Z227 is clear or not? The cat's already out of the bag (so to speak). Connally's already been wounded prior to Z227, and he is
visibly reacting to being hit by the bullet in the clearer frames (Z224-226).
So you can have Z227. I sure as heck don't need that frame to prove my point regarding John Connally's reactions. Because it's all over and done with by Z226.
JAMES R. GORDON SAID:
David,
I was not talking to you. My post was trying to answer a question of Mark's.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yes, I know that. I answered anyway. Is that against forum rules now?
JAMES R. GORDON SAID:
David,
As far as I know, it is not against the rules. The conversation I was having was with Mark.
I am not interested in your views.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
That's been blatantly obvious for days now.
==============================
ANOTHER DISCUSSION....
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
No reasonable person who knows the JFK evidence in any kind of detail at all (and who has the ability to gaze upon CE903 and the Zapruder Film) can possibly conclude, as almost all CTers do, that
"THE SINGLE-BULLET THEORY IS A FAIRY TALE".
It's just not possible to utter that above statement and still be considered a "reasonable" individual. Because, given all the evidence and angles, the SBT is so obviously the only way the double-man wounding of John Kennedy and John Connally could have occurred on Elm Street on 11/22/63. There just is no escaping that FACT. (IMO.)
CONAN SAID:
David,
The SBT is not accurate, in my opinion. However, I do believe that one bullet did indeed enter JFK's back and eventually exit[ed] Connally's chest. I also think that a portion of the bullet that passed through JFK's head also struck Connally's wrist and possibly left thigh as well. I also obviously believe that all of the shots came from behind the limo.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Then what happened to the bullet after it left Connally's chest? Keep in mind, by the time it exited Connally's chest, it had certainly INCREASED its downward trajectory (from 17+ degrees downward when it exited Oswald's rifle to a steeper downward angle of about 25 degrees when it coursed through Connally's chest along the ribcage).
So that means the bullet, per your anti-SBT scenario, would have somehow missed Connally's wrist and missed everything else in the car, even though that bullet is heading DOWNWARD into the car at a steeper angle (~25 degrees) than when it started.
Where did the bullet go? How could it NOT have hit the car or some other part of Governor Connally at that angle of about 25 degrees?
Plus, Conan, how do you account for CE399 on Connally's stretcher if, as you believe, NO WHOLE BULLET really fell out of Connally's thigh at all?
Per your theory, there should be no "CE399" at all.
The SBT explains ALL of those things. And that's one of the reasons why the SBT is the truth. There are no "loose ends" at all. Your anti-SBT theory has a bunch of loose ends.
CONAN SAID:
The other possibility is that CE-399 did indeed strike Connally on his leg (backwards by necessity) creating a superficial wound while also leaving material behind, but certainly NOT after passing through Connally's wrist. The bullet would show more damage even with [Larry] Sturdivan's adjusted numbers that were conveniently different from his HSCA testimony. Have you ever noticed that he never mentions what damage would happen to a bullet that struck cortical bone (like that of the wrist) while travelling anywhere between 700 and 1700 fps? I wonder why that is?
If you assume the official SBT is accurate, then CE-399 would have been inside Connally's pant leg while on the gurney when it happened to fall out. Is that what you believe as well?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Oh, yes. I certainly do believe that (just as I said
here).
CONAN SAID:
The clear advantage to my theory (Realistic Bullet Theory aka RBT) that TWO bullets passed through JFK and then struck Connally is that it actually makes the lack of damage to CE-399 far more plausible and drowns out the understandable (but misguided) belief of many that the bullet was not genuine evidence.
I am still at a loss why some LNs object to my alternate theory when it states that all of the shots come from behind the limo and also allows for the possibility of a single shooter while giving a better explanation for the lack of damage to CE-399.
If you follow Sturdivan's testimony to the HSCA, he essentially says that CE-399 struck Connally's ribs while traveling at a velocity of roughly 1800 fps. He also states that the bullet that struck JFK's occipital bone on the back of his head (which is significantly less dense than the ulna or radius or even the ribs) was travelling at a velocity roughly 1900 fps and came apart even though it obviously arrived at the head tip first.
Doesn't that disparity of what happened in the official narrative to those 2 bullets despite the fact that they struck bone at speeds that were only roughly 100 fps apart bother you at all? The only solution is that Sturdivan's numbers are wrong (both sets) and that something different from the official narrative occurred.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
No, it doesn't "bother" me, because CE399 was obviously tumbling greatly when it did the damage inside Connally's chest, severely slowing down (and flattening) the bullet as it did so, while the bullet that hit JFK's head struck the skull straight-on (nose first). Obviously that bullet would sustain much more damage than 399 did. And it did. (Mr. Sturdivan's speed estimates notwithstanding.)
CONAN SAID:
You have two problems then. If the bullet was tumbling through Connally's torso, then not only would CE-399 have had more damage to it as the sides of a bullet are weaker than the tip, but it would also decelerate at a much faster rate than a bullet passing through point first.
Sturdivan's testimony alleges that CE-399 would have lost only 400 fps by passing through Connally's torso. If so, then it would have hit Connally's wrist at roughly 1400 fps, which should have caused significant damage at that speed; and even Studivan's altered number in his book essentially makes that contradictory statement.
Keep in mind also that after CE-399 passed through the back of Connally's coat, skin, and minimal muscle layers on right side of his back, the very next thing the bullet struck was the 5th rib.....allegedly at roughly 1800 [fps] according to Sturdivan's testimony. He also makes it very clear in his book that the side of a bullet is significantly weaker than the tip when striking a hard surface.
So do you still want to claim that you have no problem with this? You really should have a problem.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
It sounds like you've got a lot of assumptions in those conclusions, Conan. But, for the sake of fairness, I feel compelled to say this also:
Larry Sturdivan had to rely on some "assumptions" too relating to his tests regarding bullet velocities and bullet damage, etc.
I think about the only way anybody is going to be able to prove anything with
100% certainty regarding the SBT is if we were to dig up both JFK and John Connally, put them in a time machine set to return back to 11/22/63, and then re-create the SBT shot in Dealey Plaza using a 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano bullet.
But I
do think that some fairly good "re-creations" HAVE been accomplished in the past that go a long way toward proving that the SBT was—at the very LEAST—possible. Two of those tests being the
2004 Australian test and Dr. Martin Fackler's
1992 wrist/bullet test.
I've been a bit skeptical about some of the "bullet velocity" numbers that Larry Sturdivan offers up in his 2005 book,
"The JFK Myths" (which I think, overall, is a great book). Some of the figures Larry uses in his book, however, seem a bit on the slow side to me. But I'm certainly not a "Wound Ballistics Expert". Sturdivan is. Your point is well taken, however, about Sturdivan's different figures when comparing his HSCA numbers to the figures in his book.
I'd like to see some additional tabulations from a different ballistics expert. There probably are some more data tables out there, possibly produced by some of the CTers. I'm not sure. But short of digging up the two victims to try and re-create every nuance of the SBT, I doubt any definitive results can be achieved that would satisfy everybody. The best that can be done is to make estimated guesses.
DAVID VON PEIN ALSO SAID:
Conan,
In your opinion, what is causing John Connally's rapid right arm movement in frame 226 of the Zapruder Film? You don't think Connally's right wrist has been hit by a bullet at this time (Z226), but you
DO think that that
SAME right arm (wrist)
IS going to get hit by a bullet fragment in about five seconds from that "Z226" point in time.
Just a funny "right arm" coincidence here?
And please also take note of
KENNEDY'S right arm moving upward (toward his wounded throat) at the
EXACT same instant when Governor Connally's right arm goes flying skyward at Z226. Just another amazing "SBT"-like coincidence?
The SBT stands tall and erect. And the Z225-Z226 looped image above is just one of the many reasons to know the SBT is true.
CONAN SAID:
Of course I believe that a bullet transversed the upper torsos of JFK and Connally at roughly Z-223 or so. I just don't believe that Connally was struck in the wrist at that point and Connally's hand movement seems to indicate that the wrist was slightly out of the trajectory. That does not appear to be the case after Z-313 as his hand appears to have been driven forward.
I appreciate your reasonable responses and the attempts to convince me of your belief, but you are ignoring some rather important questions about the SBT along the way. I would prefer it if you would try to respond to them.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Thank you, Conan. I appreciate your efforts....and your theory isn't TOO far away from what actually happened (obligatory "IMO"). But I think the thing that sinks your theory is the two-frame GIF I provided earlier—the
Z225-226 clip—which positively shows Kennedy and Connally lifting their right arms in unison and harmony
at the precise same instant in Z-Film time (Z226). That's pretty powerful, IMO. And it shows that a part of John Connally's body which we know
WAS injured by a bullet on November 22nd—his RIGHT ARM/WRIST—
IS moving around in what appears (to me) to be an involuntary and uncontrolled manner.
You may disagree with me about the "involuntary" and "uncontrolled" assessment, but, in my opinion, everything we see happening to John Connally between frames 224 and about 229 of the Zapruder Film are things that indicate he is
involuntarily reacting to an external stimulus—i.e., Lee Harvey Oswald's CE399 Carcano bullet, which has just struck the Governor in the upper right part of his back at circa Z224.
And included in that "everything" is the raising of Connally's right arm at Z226, which (to me) is indicating the bullet has struck his right wrist by that time, thus debunking your theory about Connally's wrist being hit by a bullet fragment after Z313.
CONAN SAID:
I never claimed that Connally's arm movement at Z-226 wasn't involuntary. The visible elevation of Connally's wrist at roughly Z-226 does not convince me that his wrist was struck at that moment. After all, Kennedy is also elevating his wrist after being shot in the extreme upper torso as well. That pretty much sinks your belief that Connally's wrist was hit at that moment which also derails the SBT.
If that was your final argument for the SBT, then you should probably jump on the RBT train, because it really does make more sense....in my opinion.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I'm not saying Connally's wrist was hit
AT Z226. His wrist was struck two frames earlier (maybe three), at circa Z224. But there has to be at least one to three frames reaction time, which is perfectly compatible with Connally's arm movement. He was hit at Z224. His wrist reacted at Z226.
But, IMO, it's just too much of a coincidence to think his right arm/wrist just happens to fly up (involuntarily) at Z226, and yet, per your theory,
THAT SAME WRIST has not yet been injured at all by a bullet. That scenario would, indeed, be remarkable
if your theory were true and Governor Connally wasn't hit in his wrist until about Z313.
That type of incredible "SBT"-like coincidence is something that I have argued with many conspiracy theorists about over the years too--with the CTers believing that all of the various things going on with Connally right after Z224 (shrugging, grimacing, flinching, lapel movement, tie dance, mouth opens, and arm raising) are NOT the result of any bullet hitting him. Those things are either totally ignored by CTers or the CTer tries to explain away Connally's movements in utterly absurd and unbelievable ways.
CONAN SAID:
Once again, I believe that a bullet entered JFK's back, exited his throat and went on to strike Connally's torso as well. Why wouldn't Connally elevate his arm in reaction to a bullet leaving his chest? Kennedy did the same and his wrist was not hit.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Okay, Conan. Point taken. I just think the "wrist coincidence" would be quite amazing if your theory is true. Obviously, you don't think it was really much of an amazing "coincidence" at all.
But I will also add this point --- JFK's arm-raising at Z226 was to bring his hands up to very near
A POINT OF PAIN AND INJURY that Kennedy had just sustained in his throat. Connally's arm-raising, however, seems to be totally involuntary and kind of "random". And Connally's right arm goes right back
DOWN again as well, unlike Kennedy's rather strange arm movements.
CONAN SAID:
Why would an LN be against the RBT (Realistic Bullet Theory) if it eliminates the problem of the lack of greater damage to CE-399 while maintaining that all shots came from behind and easily from a single shooter? Are some LNs so committed to the idea that Oswald did it that the only way for it to be true is if the SBT is accurate? Why paint yourself into a corner like that?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Your alternate theory, which incorporates a large part of (but not all) of the Warren Commission's SBT,
is an interesting theory, I must admit. Your theory is not 100% accurate, in my opinion, for the reasons I stated previously. (And, yes, I think the Z225-226 GIF clip is a very solid piece of information supporting the SBT, with Kennedy and Connally clearly reacting simultaneously, with Connally's right arm flying upward at the exact same moment when John Kennedy's right arm goes up too.)
But let me also say this ---
Your alternative theory, Conan, is much more REASONABLE and SENSIBLE than
ANY ALTERNATE ANTI-SBT THEORY that any conspiracy theorist that I have ever encountered has ever come up with, because your theory doesn't require a belief in any of the various improbable or impossible things that virtually all "anti-SBT" theories require -- such as: multiple disappearing rifle bullets that enter JFK's body from opposite directions, with those bullets then stopping on a dime inside the President's body (while causing virtually no damage to Kennedy's innards).
==============================
BUD SAID [HERE AND HERE]:
Just read
this and saw that DVP had his posting privileges returned [at
The Education Forum].
It was great to read DVP forcing those dolts to shove their heads up their own asses to avoid acknowledging the clear indications of the SBT.
[...]
[James Gordon] got angry because DVP was challenging his core beliefs. [Gordon] needs the SBT to be false because he needs Oswald to be a patsy.
Actually DVP was hammering these clowns with facts. They were getting destroyed in the debate so they had to make it into something DVP is doing wrong.
These conspiracy hobbyists can't wrap their heads around the notion that their ideas are not worthy of respect.
And you can go to the
discussion on the SBT on Education Forum and see the number of snide remarks and put downs DVP had to endure. The difference being he didn't cry about it. He made his bones in
the nuthouse, and you'll develop a tough skin in that place.
See, this hobbyist [James Gordon] is completely out of touch with reality. DVP was not parroting the WC or just throwing out unsupported opinions. He was backing up his contentions using the evidence. He was showing why he was right and these folks were wrong. And man did they hate that.
[...]
Some assclown named Robert Prudhomme keeps threatening to provide a "thrashing" on the issue but never seems to have anything to contribute. James Gordon is desperately trying to find justifications to ignore the clear indications that Connally was shot, and some other mental midget keeps popping in to say he doesn't bother arguing with LNers (and it's clear to see why not, he might be forced to think and defend his cherished fantasies).
But they will never give in on this point as it would take them one step closer to the truth, and that is where they fear to tread.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Amen, Bud. Thank you. Always great to read your posts [many of which can be found
here]. You always hit the bull's-eye with your first shot.
David Von Pein
January 2015
May 2015
June 2015
May 2017
.jpg)
.gif)
