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JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
[Vince] Palamara calls what happened in Dallas—the altering of the motorcycle formation and cutting it in half, and the removal of agents from standing on the rear of the car—“security stripping”.
This clearly resulted in the assassins having a much better opportunity to hit their target than if the proper procedures had been followed.
No surprise, [Vincent] Bugliosi apparently did not think any of this was important in discussing Secret Service complicity in the assassination.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
The whole Secret Service topic is total nonsense, mainly because we know (and can prove) that the security for President Kennedy's motorcade on November 22nd, 1963, in Dallas, Texas, was absolutely no different in any substantial way from other pre-11/22/63 motorcades that Mr. Kennedy rode in during his 1,037 days as the 35th U.S. Chief Executive.
Vince Palamara is constantly making a huge deal out of the fact that the Secret Service agents did not continuously ride on the back bumpers of JFK's limousine in Dallas (and particularly, of course, in Dealey Plaza).
But the Secret Service configuration in Dealey Plaza was no different than many other pre-November 22 parades, as the photos below amply demonstrate (and JFK is even
STANDING UP in these first seven examples--making himself an even bigger target in the limousine--and there are no SS agents riding the back bumpers at all).
So much for the crap about the Dallas motorcade being completely different than other JFK caravans:
And I can dig up about half-a-dozen other examples of photos showing NO AGENTS AT ALL riding the bumper of JFK's car while Kennedy was riding in his open limousine.
Also see the video below, which provides additional examples of President Kennedy riding in his open-top 1961 Lincoln Continental convertible without any Secret Service agents standing on the bumper of the car:
So, does Vince Palamara think that the plot was so sophisticated and elaborate so as to have the SS agents avoiding JFK's bumper in many PRE-November 22 motorcades, just to make it SEEM like the security was no different at all in Dallas? Obviously, nobody can believe such a nonsensical thing.
Therefore, the "Secret Service Was To Blame" argument goes absolutely nowhere, and proves nothing, just like all other speculative theories introduced by hundreds of conspiracy promoters worldwide since 1963.
LATER, DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
In addition to a large number of still photographs (like the ones I presented above) which prove that the Secret Service protection surrounding President Kennedy's car was no different on 11/22/63 in Dallas than it was in many other cities prior to the assassination, there is also videotape and newsreel footage of some of JFK's pre-November 22nd motorcades which show the exact same type of Secret Service protection that we see in Dealey Plaza during the Dallas parade (i.e., no SS agents on the rear steps of JFK's limo).
Two such "videotape and newsreel" examples are provided below. The first one includes footage taken in
San Diego, California, in early June of 1963. The second video shows a couple of brief clips of JFK's motorcade travelling down the very crowded streets of
Chicago, Illinois, in March 1963. And there's not a Secret Service man to be seen on the bumpers of the President's vehicle:
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
Talk about cherry picking!
Why not show all the other pictures Vince [Palamara] has shown at his video presentations which contravene those photos you show--which look like they are from Hawaii: a real danger zone right Davey Boy?
[...]
Question for DVP: Do us all a favor. Ask Vince [Bugliosi] why he did not...print Edwin Black's fantastic article on the Chicago Plot as an appendix. .... Can you get on this right away Davey Boy?
There is no doubt in any objective mind--which eliminates DVP--that if the SS had not covered up the Chicago Plot, what happened in Dallas would not have occurred. In fact I will go this far: It COULD not have occurred.
To cover up for the SS at this late date, even after they deliberately destroyed key evidence AFTER the ARRB was created, is just beyond the pale.
But with DVP, it's par for the course.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Oh, goodie! Now DiEugenio is adding the U.S. Secret Service to his list of liars and cover-up operatives. Lovely.
Next week -- Actors Gregory Peck and Richard Basehart are going to be part of DiEugenio's cover-up. After all, each man narrated an "Oswald Did It Alone" documentary within one year of the assassination [
Peck's and
Basehart's]. So they must be lying charlatans.
No matter how many people have to be lying and part of the vast conspiracy--it's never enough for the DiEugenios of the world. They'll heap more liars onto the pile with each passing day.
Good case in point (recently) -- DiEugenio's dragging
Buell Wesley Frazier down into the mud. And Linnie Mae Randle goes with him.
Was there anybody in the state of Texas who wasn't trying to nail poor schnook Oswald to the wall, Jimbo? Anybody at all?
And DiEugenio's "cherry-picking" remark regarding the photos I presented above is beyond laughable. Those pictures PROVE (for all time) that Palamara is wrong regarding the "agents riding the bumpers" rule he loves to prop up so much. But Jimbo calls it "cherry picking". Beautiful.
And Jimbo's Hawaii remark is a bladder-buster too. I guess the Secret Service should have stayed home altogether when Kennedy went to the Aloha state, huh Jim? Nobody owns a gun in that whole state, eh?
DOUG WELDON SAID:
David:
There were many differences in protocol by the Secret Service in Dallas. In MIDP [Jim Fetzer's book, "Murder In Dealey Plaza"], I even name the person from the Protective Services Division who was responsible for seeing that storm drains were sealed and windows closed in Dallas.
One of the key differences was placing the press bus way back of the motorcade. As you can see in your [second] picture, the press bus is very close to Kennedy's limo. Also note a third person in the front seat.
John Tunheim said that the Secret Service was the least cooperative of any agency the ARRB dealt with. They continued to destroy records as they were being ordered to turn them over to the [ARRB].
The records of the previous motorcades in the weeks before the assassination were supposedly destroyed. After the publication of "The Dark Side of Camelot", agents and former agents were given a hush order.
To suggest that all of the SS agents were enamored with Kennedy is simply an effort to create a whitewash. I have friends who have been or who were part of the SS, FBI, and DEA. I have interviewed many of the officers in the motorcade in Dallas. They either maintain silence or are very critical of the security in Dallas.
Best,
Doug Weldon
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
The "all windows closed" junk is nonsense too. Just look at how many times THAT (supposed) rule was broken during JFK's administration--virtually every motorcade I've ever seen in pictures, including
Hawaii, plus
Ireland, and many others (including
Dallas on 11/22/63).
That's just one more example of the Dallas parade being no different whatsoever from other motorcades.
[
EDIT: In addition, we can know by reading the official Secret Service assassination report that the U.S. Secret Service did not have a habit of checking every building and every window along motorcade routes in 1963. See
pages 12 and 13 of the 12/18/63 Secret Service Report (Warren Commission Document No. 3).]
And the "press buses were in the back" is another silly one, particularly when we know that a network TV cameraman (Dave Wiegman) DID film the scene of the murder before Kennedy's car even cleared the Underpass. SS-100-X is even
visible in Wiegman's film! And Mal Couch filmed the scene too. So it's not like there were no cameras rolling on Elm Street. There were.
Bottom Line -- Even with tighter Secret Service security on Elm Street, nobody could have prevented Lee Harvey Oswald from shooting JFK -- unless Clint Hill and John Ready had decided to become a human shield and hover over Kennedy's body during those eight seconds in Dealey.
DOUG WELDON SAID:
David:
Why did the SS feel it was necessary to destroy their records on the motorcades just prior to Dallas?
The press bus was moved to the back for the Dallas motorcade. It is not simply a question of filming. It is a question of witnessing. Nobody is suggesting that anyone tried to prevent any photos or filming in Dealey Plaza.
The buildings were to be checked and there was to be no non-law enforcement people on the overpass.
Actually, it IS EXACTLY THE DUTY of Secret Service Agents to be HUMAN SHIELDS. Ready was called back as he started to move to the limo after the first shots.
Please see my chapter in MIDP [to see] how the third person was removed from the front seat and the reason that was given. I believe this created the opportunity for a shot to be fired through the front of the windshield from the south knoll area to hit Kennedy in the front.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Hilarious, Doug. So, evidently the goofy assassins WANTED to shoot through the windshield and planned it that way in advance, eh? Hilarious!
DOUG WELDON SAID:
You are entrenched in your position and I am not going to pretend that any amount of evidence I present is going to persuade you any differently. You are entitled to your own opinion but not to your own facts.
BTW, I also agree that Four Days in November is a great film.
Also, if you know my background, you will know that I did not seek nor did I want to find the evidence that I did. I simply cannot ignore it or call so many witnesses mistaken or lying. I wanted to resist the conclusions I was forced to reach.
Unless you have sat down with and/or discussed the case with many of the witnesses you cannot understand what happened in Dallas in the same way. History is the myth that people choose to believe. Believe as you will.
Best,
Doug Weldon
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
Thanks for admitting your comparison was Hawaii.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
My photo comparison wasn't ONLY Hawaii, Jimbo. I provided several different pictures from several different motorcades. Why in the world do you think they ALL depict JFK in Hawaii? They don't. And I can provide more examples.
[And I did provide more when I added several more motorcade photos to this webpage in the years 2012, 2014, 2015, 2016, and 2022. And CLICK HERE for some observations concerning JFK's motorcade in San Antonio on 11/21/63, which was also identical to the Dallas parade.]
And what difference does it make what CITY he's in? He was still going to receive the same SS protection in each city--whether it was Honolulu or Walla Walla.
Do you think the Secret Service was "standing down" in Hawaii, Jim? If not, then where are the SS agents on the back of the car that Palamara is always insisting should always be there?
Related Topic:
With respect to the so-called "Secret Service Standdown" at Love Field, new information surfaced in 2010 that should be weighed when attempting to reach a conclusion regarding the identity of a particular "shrugging" Secret Service agent who appears briefly in a
videotaped clip of JFK's car just as the motorcade was leaving Love Field Airport.
In the 2010 book "The Kennedy Detail", co-written by former Secret Service agents Gerald Blaine and Clint Hill, it is revealed that the Secret Service agent who appears to be bewildered and who is holding his arms out to his side in the TV footage is not the person that most people for years believed him to be--Henry Rybka. Instead of Rybka, however, the bewildered agent is most likely an agent by the name of Donald Lawton, whose assignment on 11/22/63 was to remain at Love Field. He was never scheduled to be a part of the actual motorcade through the city of Dallas that day.
Gary Mack, the curator at the Sixth Floor Museum, provided some information on this topic in 2010. (See his remarks below.)
GARY MACK SAID:
Dave,
A
Dillard photo a few seconds before departure shows an agent behind the right front fender of 679-X [the Secret Service follow-up car], another agent, apparently Rybka, at the bumper on the back end of 100-X [JFK's car], and a third agent wearing a darker suit standing even with JFK. All three men have their left hand on the car they are next to but, unfortunately, their faces cannot be seen.
Since the source isn’t in the book [Gerald Blaine's
"The Kennedy Detail"], I asked writer Lisa McCubbin how the Lawton identification was confirmed and here is what she wrote:
"Confirmed by Clint Hill, Paul Landis, and Don Lawton."
The logical explanation is that Rybka was farther behind 100-X and just barely out of camera range before and shortly after the motorcade departed. Rybka’s report stating he “moved along with” the motorcade makes sense if he had dropped behind 679-X when that car appeared on camera, thus putting himself impossible to see at that moment.
Gary Mack
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Thank you, Gary, as always.
Gary Mack has now convinced me that
"Shrugging Man" is, indeed, Secret Service agent Donald Lawton and not Henry Rybka.
I was convinced when Gary mentioned the existence of
this Tom Dillard photograph [also shown below], which depicts THREE Secret Service men near the cars (probably Lawton standing next to JFK on the right side of SS-100-X, and probably Rybka BEHIND Lawton, and then yet another unknown agent further back, standing near the right front fender of the Secret Service car).
Gary Mack's explanation now makes perfect sense (thanks to his mentioning that Dillard picture).
[
RELATED LINK]
Also see the video below, which is an excerpt from former Secret Service agent Clint Hill's C-Span interview in November of 2010. In the video (as well as in
THIS audio version of the clip, which is also linked below), Hill reveals the true identity of "Shrugging Man" (Don Lawton) and explains why Lawton is behaving that way just as JFK's motorcade was departing Love Field in Dallas on November 22, 1963:
"I would be glad to comment on that. I was the agent on the left rear outside—running alongside the car. The agent on the right rear—working at the right rear at that time—is an agent named Don Lawton. Don Lawton's assignment that day was not to ride in the follow-up car. His assignment to him was to remain at Love Field and handle our return, secure the airport for us when we came back. We were going to fly on to Austin, Texas—and what he was doing was, when he came back off the car, he was saying, "OK, you guys, I'm going to lunch, have a good trip." I talked to him within the last month and he reiterated to me the same thing again. That's exactly what he was doing, just making a gesture to us in the follow-up car, "See ya, I'm going to lunch. Have a good trip." " -- Clint Hill; November 8, 2010
-------------------------------------------------------------
Once again--thank you, Gary Mack, for your valuable input (even regarding an extremely unimportant matter such as this one concerning the exact identity of a Secret Service agent who was merely doing his job at Love Field as JFK's motorcade departed for downtown Dallas).
However, the information about the "shrugging" SS agent being Lawton instead of Rybka is important in one way: It should forever silence the conspiracists who like to talk about how the security for JFK's motorcade was being "stripped away" at Love Field.
Why should it silence them with respect to the shrugging agent? Because, as far as I am aware (via
Emory Roberts' assignment sheets), Donald Lawton was never assigned to be a part of the team of agents in the follow-up car (SS-679-X).
Lawton's assignment was
"to remain at the airport to effect security for the President's departure" (a direct quote from Lawton's 11/30/63 report, via
CE2554).
The conspiracy theorists have always been able to argue that Emory Roberts had initially penciled in Henry Rybka's name to be one of the SS agents assigned to sit in the follow-up car during the Dallas parade. But no such argument can be made regarding Don Lawton, because Lawton knew what his assignment that day was going to be--to stay at Love Field and help out with security at the airport.
Therefore, we can know with 100% certainty that if Lawton is the "shrugging" agent who looks confused and bewildered just as JFK's motorcade is departing Love Field (and I now think that Lawton definitely is that Secret Service agent), then his actions cannot possibly have anything to do with any kind of "security stripping" at the airport.
The conspiracy believers can, of course, continue to use their previous "stripping" argument when it comes to Rybka specifically, but not with Lawton. Chalk it up as just one more conspiracy myth knocked down--and it took almost 47 years to do it.
David Von Pein
November 16, 2010
April 2012
September 30, 2012
June 2014
July 2014
January 2015
February 2015
April 2015
December 2015
September 2016
October 2016
October 2022
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MORE INFORMATION REGARDING THE SECRET SERVICE AGENTS NEAR JFK'S CAR AT LOVE FIELD:
To further illustrate the fact that there were most certainly at least two Secret Service agents walking along the right-hand side of the President's car and the SS follow-up car just as the motorcade began to roll at Love Field, as the
Dillard photo seems to also indicate, here's a short film clip (which I've looped a few times in a row) taken from a position on the left-hand side of the cars as the motorcade began to move out. This clip was extracted from a 1963 WBAP-TV special called
"President Kennedy In Texas". This clip also tends to debunk the myth that Jackie Kennedy was given a "Lambchop" toy by a spectator at Love Field. Mrs. Kennedy is clearly seen handling a small cluster of flowers--not a toy of some kind--in this footage:
The above motion picture clip and the two still images taken from that film clearly show two different Secret Service agents walking next to the cars, rather than just the one "shrugging" agent that can be seen just a few seconds later in the WFAA-TV videotape footage.
Therefore, one of those two agents
must have peeled off and stopped walking beside the cars within just seconds of the above film being shot. Now, whether the agent who peeled off was Henry Rybka or not, I cannot say.
In addition to the above film clip, I have found yet another motion picture (taken from the 2003 CNN documentary
"President Kennedy Has Been Shot") which shows the cars from another angle (from the right side of the vehicles) just as the motorcade begins:
In the above film footage, there's an agent (not wearing sunglasses) right next to JFK's car door. That same agent can also be seen for several seconds in the other film clip I presented earlier. Unfortunately, the man who is probably the "shrugging" SS agent (Don Lawton, who is wearing sunglasses in the WFAA footage) is not visible in the last clip above, but an agent wearing sunglasses (probably Rybka), who appears to be older than "shrugging man", is clearly seen in that footage and in the still photo from that film shown above. And if it is indeed Rybka, he is located just exactly where he said he was positioned in his official report (quoted below):
"I [proceeded] to the follow-up car 679-X and stationed myself at the right front fender of 679-X and the rear of 100-X. There I stopped everyone from going in between the cars. Once the motorcade began to move, I moved along with it, until the motorcade picked up speed." -- Henry Rybka [Via
CE2554]
David Von Pein
March 2012
----------------------------
2022 INTERJECTION BY DAVID V.P.:
Just today (June 22, 2022), I came across the photograph seen below, which is a nice clear picture showing JFK's limousine just as the car is about to depart Love Field on 11/22/63. In this picture, on the right-hand side of the car, we can see the two Secret Service agents previously discussed (both wearing sunglasses)---Donald Lawton (left) and Henry Rybka (right):
Source credit for the above photo: Vincent Palamara.
David Von Pein
June 22, 2022
===================================
ADDENDUM #1:
In direct contradiction to the suggestion made by
Vincent Palamara that President Kennedy never once expressed his desire that the Secret Service agents not ride on the built-in steps on the bumper of JFK's limousine during motorcades, there is this excerpt shown below from
page 20 of the December 18, 1963,
Report of the U.S. Secret Service on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which tells us that JFK
did, indeed, indicate that he did not want the agents to ride on the rear steps of the SS-100-X limousine.
Furthermore, the 1963 Secret Service Report, issued to the Warren Commission less than a month after the President's assassination, says that President Kennedy
"frequently stated that he did not wish to have the agents riding on these steps".
Now, yes, I am aware of Mr. Palamara's many personal telephone conversations and interviews with several Secret Service agents who told Palamara that President Kennedy never expressed any such desire regarding the agents not riding on the bumper of the car, but these words appear in the 12/18/63 Secret Service Report nevertheless....
In addition, there is also this Warren Commission testimony of Secret Service agent Clint Hill [at
2 H 136]....
ARLEN SPECTER -- "Did you have any other occasion en route from Love Field to downtown Dallas to leave the followup car and mount that [back bumper] portion of the President's car?"
CLINTON J. HILL -- "I did the same thing approximately four times."
MR. SPECTER -- "What are the standard regulations and practices, if any, governing such an action on your part?"
MR. HILL -- "It is left to the agent's discretion more or less to move to that particular position when he feels that there is a danger to the President; to place himself as close to the President--or the First Lady as my case was--as possible, which I did."
MR. SPECTER -- "Are those practices specified in any written documents of the Secret Service?"
MR. HILL -- "No, they are not."
MR. SPECTER -- "Now, had there been any instruction or comment about your performance of that type of a duty with respect to anything that President Kennedy himself had said in the period immediately preceding the trip to Texas?"
MR. HILL -- "Yes, sir; there was. The preceding Monday, the President was on a trip in Tampa, Florida, and he requested that the agents not ride on either of those two steps."
MR. SPECTER -- "And to whom did the President make that request?"
MR. HILL -- "Assistant Special Agent in Charge Boring."
----------------------------------
I will also point out this excerpt from the 12/18/63 Secret Service Report, which was culled from
Page 18 and
Page 19 of Appendix A of the report:
David Von Pein
June 2014
===================================
ADDENDUM #2:
A CONSPIRACY THEORIST SAID:
No one expected JFK to personally tell every agent in the SS to stay off the bumper. That's Boring's job. But afaik, no memo (post-Tampa) was ever dispatched.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Why does a "memo" necessarily have to exist?
We've got Clint Hill's testimony where he talks about such a request being made by the President; and we've got
page 20 of Commission Document No. 3, which states that JFK "frequently" stated he didn't want agents on the limo's steps. And "frequently" obviously indicates that Tampa wasn't the FIRST time Kennedy had made such a request.
THE CONSPIRACY THEORIST SAID:
All of that was after the assassination. They could have been lying to protect their asses.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Why on Earth would the Secret Service have felt the need to lie about something they had no reason to lie about at all (even if the SS
was in the middle of a "CYA" period)?
Since we know (and can prove via a
multitude of photos and also via film and
videotape footage) that the Secret Service agents did NOT always ride the bumpers of JFK's car PRIOR to November 22, there would have been no reason for the SS to want to start lying about anything connected to any "bumper riders".
In other words, the truth would easily suffice--with that truth being (as the pre-Dallas photos amply illustrate): Sometimes the SS agents rode on the bumper of Kennedy's car, and sometimes they didn't.
So why lie about it?
Ergo, since it's obvious that no "lie" was required at all here (even for "CYA" purposes), it stands to reason that no lie was told.
Hence, page 20 of CD3 is very likely a 100% truthful and honest document regarding President Kennedy's "frequent" statements regarding his desire that the Secret Service agents not ride on the limo's bumper/steps.
David Von Pein
June 2014
===================================
ADDENDUM #3:
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I have now found several more Secret Service documents, available to view in
Warren Commission Document No. 821, which indicate President Kennedy's desire to not have the SS agents riding on the rear steps of the Presidential limousine during motorcades.
Click each photo below to see the complete page within CD821 pertaining to that agent's individual statement regarding this matter:
In addition to the above four statements made in April 1964 by Secret Service agents Gerald Behn, Floyd Boring, Emory Roberts, and John Ready, there is also
this statement made by Clint Hill, which also appears in Commission Document 821.
Are all of the above statements nothing but lies, Vince Palamara?
Gerald Behn's statement is particularly illuminating, since he talks about how JFK told him (Behn) directly
"on numerous occasions" (going all the way back to 1961) that he (Kennedy) didn't like the agents on or near the Presidential limousine.
So much for Mr. Palamara's claim that President Kennedy never made any such request. Behn's report in CD821 proves Palamara to be wrong--regardless of how many agents he interviewed in the 1990s.
David Von Pein
June 27, 2014
===================================
ADDENDUM #4:
GARRY PUFFER SAID:
Please tell me David isn't still trying to sell the "JFK ordered the agents off the bumper" schtick at this late date.
He can't be serious.
"MAR" SAID:
CD821 itself IS NOT evidence or proof of anything without supporting documentation.
[...]
Behn's report found in CD821 was introduced in 1964. Palamara interviewed Behn in 1992. Behn denied, on-the-record, that JFK ordered agents off the limo.
You're delusional and in denial.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
What happened to the proverbial motto of
"The earliest reports and documents and testimony are always better than the recollections of someone decades later"? Is that rule to be tossed aside in this instance?
Footnote -- Of course, yes, I know that LNers do that same kind of picking-and-choosing of statements, just like CTers do, when it comes to
"Which is best--an old statement or a newer one?" But you seem to be doing it with regard to Gerald Behn's April 1964 statement.
So, you actually
do think that Behn's statement in CD821 is nothing but a pack of lies? Really?
But, of course, there wasn't any good reason for any of the Secret Service agents to start lying and saying that JFK didn't like the agents on the bumper.
Why do I say that?
Because even
without such a request coming from JFK himself, there is ample proof that the Secret Service did
not always have agents stuck like glue to the back of Kennedy's limo. Tons of photos and films exist (and the SS had to know this, of course) which show JFK in motorcades without a single Secret Service agent riding the bumper.
Therefore, Dallas was
exactly the same as all pre-11/22 motorcades as far as this "SS agents not always riding the bumper" topic.
In fact, I've got pictures of JFK in a motorcade in Alameda, California, which show no SS agents even riding the
running boards of the follow-up car at all! But since JFK wasn't shot at in Alameda, no conspiracy theorist ever says a thing about
photos like these (and, by extrapolation, there's never anything said by CTers about any kind of sinister "security stripping" being done by the Secret Service in Alameda).
So, we're now going to have to put up with conspiracy clowns who actually think the following words, which appear in a written statement that was signed by SAIC Gerald A. Behn of the U.S. Secret Service in April of 1964, are nothing but a pack of lies being told by Mr. Behn:
"On numerous occasions during motorcades where the pace was slow and crowds were fairly well-controlled by the police, but the agents were nonetheless in position around the presidential car, the President would either tell me to tell the agents, or he would attempt to tell the agents on his side of the car, to get back. .... In November, 1961...he told me that he did not want agents riding on the back of his car." -- Gerald Behn; April 16, 1964
And yet
I'm the one who is supposedly "delusional and in denial".
Hilarious.
Also....
The conspiracists should find Floyd Boring's alleged "lies" that he told in CD821 to be rather interesting in an
extended way too....because Boring talks not only about the November 18 incident in Tampa when JFK told him he didn't want agents riding on the rear steps, but Boring also says that
"a similar request was made by President Kennedy to me on July 2, 1963...in Rome, Italy".
So, Mr. Boring recalled a specific additional incident (besides Tampa) when JFK told Boring personally that he didn't want the agents on the car.
But, I guess the conspiracy theorists must think that Boring thought it would look good on paper to tell MORE LIES, with specific dates and locations added in.
David Von Pein
June 28, 2014
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ADDENDUM #5:
PETER McGUIRE SAID:
You apparently don't understand that what the Warren Commission says means nothing.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
The documents I provided above come directly from SECRET SERVICE personnel, not the WARREN COMMISSION.
Those Secret Service statements exist within a "Commission Document", yes. But the material in that document consists of FIVE different statements made by SECRET SERVICE agents, not "Warren Commission" people, for Pete sake.
Are you saying that all of those statements made by the Secret Service agents in April of 1964 are filled with nothing but lies?
Plus, the Commission, as far as I am aware, didn't even publish ANY of the statements found in that CD821 document. That's why it's buried at the Mary Ferrell website only---it's not a "Commission Exhibit". Therefore, it wasn't even published in the volumes.
And yet, why would a Commission that you, Peter McGuire, evidently think is totally useless and worthless (and obviously corrupt to its core) have NOT wanted to publish CD821 in its 26 volumes? They certainly wouldn't be hiding such information. That'd be silly to believe--even for CTers.
But, once again, when faced with overpowering proof that goes against what some conspiracists want to believe (and in this instance that "proof" comes in the form of multiple
signed statements written by the various Secret Service agents themselves), we're treated to the normal response by a conspiracy theorist, such as Peter McGuire's brilliant retort --
"You apparently don't understand that what the Warren Commission says means nothing" -- which is a retort that is worthless unto itself, seeing as how those reports that comprise CD821 are Secret Service reports and really have nothing whatsoever to do with the "Warren Commission" directly at all. (Unless Peter now wants to say that James Rowley and his Secret Service agents were all in league and in cahoots with Earl Warren's boys, and therefore Rowley's men decided to start writing phony reports just to please the rotten crooks on the Warren Commission. Is that the idea, Peter?)
David Von Pein
July 3, 2014
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ADDENDUM #6:
"SQUINTY MAGOO" SAID:
Those are nice, after the fact, documents. But the problem with Boring's memo goes beyond being six months after the fact [actually five].
It refers only to JFK's desire that agents not ride on the limo when "crowds along the route were sparse...." Indeed, the examples cited are ones where the crowds had thinned, motorcade speed had increased and JFK did not want the agents on the car.
The examples fly in [the] face of the supposed reason for JFK's request, so that the public could see him.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Any more paper-thin excuses you'd like to come up with to try and salvage Vince Palamara's claim that JFK
never once said anything to any of the Secret Service agents about not wanting the agents on the limo?
In light of the actual documents I produced via CD821, any such excuses that attempt to resurrect Palamara's stance (regardless of how many agents he personally interviewed who said otherwise) are going to look mighty weak indeed.
David Von Pein
July 5, 2014
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ADDENDUM #7:
CHRIS SAID:
Nope, won't do. A couple of CYA memos 6 months [sic] after the murder won't help you make your point at all. If JFK wanted agents off the platforms, why wasn't it properly documented at that time and passed around to all the agents? It would be a failure of responsibility for Rowley to have ignored that new 'policy', yet you're ready to listen to any CYA memos he produced, and this one isn't the only one he wrote at around that time.
As well, if JFK had said that he wanted the agents off the platforms, even under certain circumstances, why wasn't that information passed around to all the agents, even without a memo? Many agents said they never heard that stuff about the platforms, and that JFK had no complaints and was easy to deal with. Also, using the phrase "ivy league charlatans" wasn't JFK's style either.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You're being silly, Chris. There are FIVE separate statements inside CD821. You'll ignore all five and insist that all FIVE agents were lying because they were in "CYA" mode in April 1964.
But, just the same, those five statements will still be there tomorrow, next week, and next year. I guess you'll just have to live with it (as you pretend to know that ALL FIVE agents were lying their asses off in each statement).
I love stuff like CD821. When a document like that pops up, it makes it so easy to make conspiracy theorists look foolish. And the conspiracist named Chris is doing an outstanding job of obliging. Because he sure looks mighty foolish as he tries desperately to combat
Warren Commission Document No. 821.
David Von Pein
July 6, 2014
===================================
ADDENDUM #8:
CHRIS SAID:
...they should have made it policy and issued a memo to all protectors to follow the new policy.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I love it when a conspiracy theorist thinks
he gets to decide what "should" have been done in a given circumstance.
Chris, of course, is merely engaging in CTer wishful-thinking (as usual).
To think that ALL FIVE Secret Service agents who wrote up memos in Commission Document No. 821 would deliberately write FALSE SIGNED statements about the President's desires concerning his Secret Service protection is simply NOT a reasonable thing to believe.
And the fact is that Clint Hill even tells us in
his signed statement that
"no written instructions regarding this were ever distributed". Here is Hill's exact quote from CD821:
"It was general knowledge on the White House Detail...that President Kennedy had asked Special Agent in Charge Gerald A. Behn not to have Special Agents ride on the rear of the Presidential Automobile. No written instructions regarding this were ever distributed." -- Clinton J. Hill
David Von Pein
July 7, 2014
===================================
ADDENDUM #9:
CHUCK ZBORIL SAID:
I am the agent who was assigned to ride on back of presidential limo in
Tampa, Florida. I can attest to accuracy of special agent Blaine's statements on Pres. Kennedy's visit to Tampa as recorded in
The Kennedy Detail. Pres. Kennedy requested the "Ivy League Charlatans" fall back to follow up car from the presidential limo.
I can also attest to the fact that I was told by my supervisors, as was every agent on White House Detail, that there was to be no discussion over the President's request. This info was confidential until the Warren Commission requested Chief James Rowley for sworn statements from SAIC Jerry Behn, ATSAIC Emory Roberts (shift leader in Tampa), ASAIC Floyd Boring (agent in charge in Tampa), SA Jack Ready (follow up car in Dallas), [and] SAIC Clinton J. Hill (Mrs. Kennedy's agent). These statements are in the Warren Commission report. As supervisors, SAIC Behn and Boring had received previous requests before Tampa for agents to not ride on back of limo until conditions were necessary for that coverage.
Mr. Palamara has made a big issue out of agents stating that the President was not hard to protect and had never heard the president make such a request. He also called me. Since Mr. Palamara was a complete stranger, I tried to be as polite as can be without revealing Secret Service info regarding the president or the assassination. SA Blaine himself requested agents to ride on back of limo for the 26 mile motorcade, because we had lost 11 experienced agents in the previous two months and SA Jack Ready had to go back to Wash. DC because of a death in the family. Don Lawton and I were the only experienced agents in Tampa who had worked a motorcade.
In his book SA Blaine wrote that prior to November 18 he had never heard the president make such a request and was surprised when he heard the request over the radio in the lead car. (Agent Blaine along with Agent Frank Yeager conducted the Tampa Advance, not Agent Dave Grant as stated in the Palamara book.)
[...]
I had read Palamara's book on his Blog and have read the published copy of his book. There are so many inaccuracies and assassination of character issues and incorrect facts that it hardly deserves a one star rating.
Chuck Zboril
November 10, 2013
===================================
ADDENDUM #10:
Regarding Vince Palamara's 2014 claim that Secret Service agent Floyd Boring was a liar and was really present at Love Field in Dallas on 11/22/63 instead of being elsewhere at that time....
FRANK BADALSON SAID THIS.
===================================
ADDENDUM #11:
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
In December 2015, I added
this page to my "Kennedy Photo Gallery" website, which is a webpage that includes some photographs of President Kennedy riding in an open limousine during a motorcade in Pueblo, Colorado, on August 17, 1962.
And in that Pueblo parade, it can be noted that there are absolutely no Secret Service agents near or on JFK's car. And President Kennedy is even
STANDING UP in his car, which is an older limo in the Pueblo parade which does not appear to even be equipped with the built-in steps/platforms on the back bumper (see photo below).
Plus, in some of the pictures taken during the motorcade in Pueblo (such as the examples provided above and below), there aren't even any Secret Service agents riding on the running boards of the Secret Service follow-up car! The agents are all sitting inside the follow-up car for some portions of that parade.
In addition, there are no police motorcycles right next to Kennedy's car either, making the security immediately surrounding JFK's limousine far
less substantial for parts of that Pueblo motorcade than it was in Dealey Plaza in Dallas on 11/22/63.
But since the President wasn't shot and killed in Pueblo, Colorado, conspiracy theorists probably don't give a damn about the (perceived) lax security he received in that city in August of 1962.
VINCENT PALAMARA SAID:
That is funny--I have photos from that very same motorcade proving a point I made previously: agents were certainly not always on the rear of the limo (no one ever said they were!), overt protection was not always visible due to decorum and, to compensate, building rooftops were regularly guarded by the local police and/or sheriff's department and/or military and/or agents.
STRAWMAN FALLACY -- knocking down an issue that never was to begin with. I have a photo from this very same motorcade in a post from a couple months back demonstrating what I mean--by the military and police lining the street and facing the crowd, augmented by building rooftops guarded, protection was afforded to presidents FDR, Truman, Ike and Kennedy....
"8/17/62 Pueblo, CO- military lines street and rooftops (as I mention in my book, and as can be seen in news articles and so forth in this album, THIS is how the Secret Service "got around" not having agents near the limousine all the time, etc.)."
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
But here's a picture from that same Pueblo motorcade in which there are no military guards or policemen lining the street at all, and Kennedy is standing up in the car, with no SS agents even riding the running boards of the SS follow-up car, and no police motorcycles next to JFK's car at all (the cycles visible in this picture below are well ahead of the President's car). And I'm always hearing CTers griping about how the motorcycle configuration wasn't right surrounding JFK's car in Dealey Plaza. And yet here is an example of a motorcade (in Pueblo) where there isn't a cycle
anywhere near the President's car
at all. So during this stretch of the Pueblo, Colorado, parade at least, the President's protection was far LESS substantial than what we find in Dallas' Dealey Plaza on November 22nd....
David Von Pein
December 18-20, 2015
===================================
ADDENDUM #12:
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
In September 2016, I came across another picture of JFK riding in a motorcade prior to 11/22/63 (also seen near the top of this webpage), with this one showing virtually no security around JFK's car at all.
Not a single moving police motorcycle is visible in the picture. JFK is standing up even! No agents on the bumper. Spectators standing in high places overlooking the parade route. And, in addition, the Secret Service follow-up car is not nearly as close to the bumper of the President's car here as it usually is.
But since President Kennedy wasn't killed in El Paso, Texas, in June of 1963 (which is where and when this photo was taken), no conspiracy theorist who believes in the "Secret Service Standdown" theory ever brings up photographs like this one below when it comes to comparing the security seen here versus the security seen in Dealey Plaza on November 22nd. (Photo courtesy of Steve Roe via Facebook.) ....
David Von Pein
September 19, 2016
===================================
ADDENDUM #13:
CHRIS SAID:
DVP was in error, because Lawton couldn't be the guy that was 'stood down' since Lawton's report for 11/22/63 (CE2554) was that he stayed at the airport and prepared for the return to the planes.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Chris,
Even your hero, Vince Palamara, has conceded that "Shrugging Man" is Donald Lawton.
You seem to think that just because Lawton ran alongside the limo for a few seconds, that must mean he
HAD to be part of the "motorcade" crew that day. Right? But why would you think such a thing?
Also: according to Clint Hill (via
this 2010 C-Span clip), the shrugging agent's identity was confirmed as Don Lawton.
CHRIS SAID:
You ask why do I think that the "stand down man" was part of the motorcade? Because he was told to get into the following Queen Mary limo, and did so. That limo was in the motorcade. So do you have further evidence for me?
[...]
It's clear from the more complete clip on Youtube and not the one that DVP clipped a bit early that BOTH men got into the following limo. Also, it wasn't just the one man showing his frustration and lack of understanding, but 2 men, BOTH of whom went back and got into the limo.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I have no idea what you're talking about here. Because it's very clear from the WFAA videotape (the complete uncut version is shown below) that Clint Hill did get back onto the running board of the Secret Service follow-up car after walking along the left side of JFK's car, but the
ONLY visible agent who can be seen walking/running along the right side of the car (Lawton) definitely did
NOT get into the Secret Service car. There can be no doubt about that fact.
I guess Chris must think the agent who has one leg inside the interior part of the Secret Service follow-up car and one leg outside the car was also running alongside the cars at some point. But that's not true at all. The agent who seems to be making room on the right running board for Lawton was likely confused and wasn't sure whether to get off the running board to make room for Lawton or not.
Since Lawton obviously was not part of the motorcade crew that day, it's my guess that he (Lawton) merely took it upon himself to augment the Queen Mary agents for a few minutes at Love Field just as the President's car departed.
Therefore, Lawton (instead of just standing there doing nothing as JFK left the airport) decided to help out his fellow agents by running along with the President's limousine as the motorcade started up.
In fact, Henry Rybka did the exact same thing--even though Rybka, just like Lawton, did not end up being part of the motorcade crew that day. And this statement below made by Rybka, of course, is the thing that caused great confusion for years as to the true identity of the shrugging agent. Because Rybka did exactly the same thing that Donald Lawton did at Love Field---he ran alongside the cars until JFK's limo picked up some speed.
From Rybka's report:
"I [proceeded] to the follow-up car 679-X and stationed myself at the right front fender of 679-X and the rear of 100-X. There I stopped everyone from going in between the cars. Once the motorcade began to move, I moved along with it, until the motorcade picked up speed." -- Henry Rybka [CE2554]
Unfortunately, Agent Lawton didn't mention anything about
also running alongside the cars in his
11/30/63 report. It was probably something that was so unimportant and insignificant in his mind when he wrote out his Secret Service report on November 30th, that he didn't even think it was important enough to mention in his report.
Here's the complete uncut video of President Kennedy's arrival at Love Field:
CHRIS SAID:
There's no doubt that BOTH men are heading to the follow-up car to get in.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
And it couldn't be any clearer from the
video that
only Clint Hill (on the left side) actually got onto the running board of the Queen Mary follow-up car. Lawton, on the right side, doesn't get onto or into the SS car. Again, Chris, why are you claiming he did when it's plainly obvious to everybody that he didn't?
The Secret Service car, in fact, had already
completely gone past Donald Lawton (aka Shrugging Man) by the time the WFAA-TV camera lost sight of him.
I also find it very odd to hear an argument from a conspiracy theorist who believes in the "Secret Service Standdown" theory in which that CTer is arguing in favor of the "shrugging" agent actually
getting into the SS follow-up vehicle at Love Field--and thus, in effect, becoming part of the team of Secret Service agents who rode in the motorcade through the city of Dallas on November 22, 1963.
That's a very strange position for a conspiracist to take, because most of the CTers who promote the silly "standdown" theory firmly believe that "Shrugging Man" was
totally abandoned and left behind at the airport by his Secret Service cohorts.
But to hear Chris tell it, the shrugging agent
wasn't left behind at Love Field at all. That agent, per Chris, apparently got into the Secret Service car and became part of the motorcade detail that day. Some "standdown" there, huh?
I guess Chris has, therefore, decided to swallow the wholly incorrect information that appears in
this YouTube video, when the narrator misinforms the YouTube viewers when he says that Secret Service agents should have been
"riding on the bumper of the limousine throughout the motorcade".
That statement, however, is nothing but an outright falsehood. The SS agents did not have a habit of continually riding on the back bumpers of President Kennedy's limousine "throughout"
ANY of JFK's motorcades (as the many photos presented above clearly demonstrate). The agents only rode on the bumpers when it was deemed necessary to do so, just as Clint Hill explained in the following excerpt from his 1964 Warren Commission testimony (at
2 H 136)....
CLINT HILL -- "It is left to the agent's discretion more or less to move to that particular position [on the bumper of the President's car] when he feels that there is a danger to the President; to place himself as close to the President--or the First Lady as my case was--as possible, which I did."
CHRIS SAID:
No one is commenting that agents always ride on the limo.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
That's good, Chris. Which means, of course, that your whole "standdown" argument is useless and worthless to begin with, since it's obvious from all the videos and photos that are available to view that the agents didn't always ride on the bumpers of JFK's vehicle.
CHRIS SAID:
The 2 men (yes, BOTH) had room made for them in the follow-up car, and they headed right for that position in the follow-up car.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
If you want to keep pretending that the shrugging agent got into (or onto) the SS car at Love Field, then be my guest. But you only look foolish by making such an obviously erroneous claim.
And maybe you, Chris, can tell me why there was only ONE Secret Service agent riding on the right-hand running board of the Queen Mary follow-up car just after the motorcade departed Love Field (see picture below, taken from the WFAA video). Where is "Shrugging Man" in this picture? Do you think he squeezed himself into the back seat with three other agents?
So it would appear that the agent who can be seen half inside and half outside the SS car at one point in the WFAA-TV videotaped footage--probably Agent Paul Landis--did not immediately return to his position on the right rear running board after he mistakenly thought he needed to vacate that running board slot to make room for Donald Lawton (aka "Shrugging Man").
Landis, instead, remained inside the SS car for a short period of time, seated in the back seat with Agents George Hickey and Glen Bennett. At some point, however, Landis vacated the back seat and re-positioned himself on the right rear running board
*, which is where he was located when we see him looking back over his right shoulder shortly after the shooting started in Dealey Plaza (see the Altgens photo below).
* EDIT / FOOTNOTE -- Upon reading Special Agent Paul Landis' extremely detailed
Secret Service report concerning his activities on 11/22/63, I see now that my above comments were totally accurate ones regarding Agent Landis. Here's what Landis himself wrote in his November 30th report:
"I stood by the right rear side until the car started moving and then hopped on the right rear portion of the right running board of the Follow-up car. I was standing with my right leg on the running board and my left leg up over and inside the Follow-up car. I stayed in this position until we were leaving the Airport area and remarked that, "I might as well get all the way in," and I did so. I glanced at my watch but I don't recall the time. Special Agents Glen Bennett and George Hickey were seated to my left respectively in the rear of the Follow-up car. Mr. David Powers was seated directly in front of me in the center portion of the Follow-up car and Mr. Kenneth O'Donnell was seated on Mr. Power's left. Special Agent Sam Kinney was driving and ATSAIC Roberts was seated in the right front seat. Special Agents John Ready, Clinton Hill, and Tim McIntyre were standing on the right front, left front, and left rear portions of the running board, respectively. The motorcade had not proceeded far when ATSAIC Roberts asked me to get back on the outside running board, "Just in case," which I immediately did." -- SA Paul E. Landis, Jr.; 11/30/63
CHRIS SAID:
Don't you feel embarrassed saying that baloney about the 'stand down' man not standing down because agents didn't always ride in the motorcades?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
The main point I have been emphasizing for years with respect to this ridiculous "Love Field Standdown" topic is a point that apparently you, Chris, will never be able to grasp (or accept as a fact, even though there is ample evidence now to show that it is a fact), and that point is this (repeating my earlier comments):
"The conspiracy theorists have always been able to argue that Emory Roberts had initially penciled in Henry Rybka's name to be one of the SS agents assigned to sit in the follow-up car during the Dallas parade. But no such argument can be made regarding Don Lawton, because Lawton knew what his assignment that day was going to be--to stay at Love Field and help out with security at the airport. Therefore, we can know with 100% certainty that if Lawton is the "shrugging" agent who looks confused and bewildered just as JFK's motorcade is departing Love Field (and I now think that Lawton definitely is that Secret Service agent), then his actions cannot possibly have anything to do with any kind of "security stripping" at the airport." -- DVP; November 16, 2010
CHRIS SAID:
The 'stand down' man...raised his hands to get an assist in getting into the follow-up car.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You're seeing things that never occurred, Chris. Simple as that.
David Von Pein
October 1-8, 2016
===================================
ADDENDUM #14:
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Many conspiracy theorists want to believe that the "shrugging agent" incident at Love Field is proof that Secret Service agents were ordered to "stand down" just before the assassination. But when assessing the incident more carefully, such an accusation of Secret Service complicity is just total nonsense.
For one thing, we know that even if the agent in question had remained with the motorcade after the cars left Love Field, there's no way in the world he would have been running alongside Kennedy's limo throughout the entire lengthy trip through Dallas.
BEN HOLMES SAID:
That is PRECISELY what the two agents in the back of the limo do...they jog along behind the limo - and when the limo picks up speed, they stand on the little step provided on the bumper, and use the hand hold.
David Von Pein *KNOWS THIS FOR A FACT* - yet blatantly lies about it on his website.
Tell us David - why did you blatantly lie about the two agents that are normally stationed right behind the limo?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Ben Holmes knows, of course, that my statement (repeated below) is 100% correct....
"We know that even if the agent in question had remained with the motorcade after the cars left Love Field, there's no way in the world he would have been running alongside Kennedy's limo throughout the entire lengthy trip through Dallas." -- DVP; 10/25/2010
With very few exceptions, the agents assigned to JFK's motorcades only ran alongside the car when it was deemed necessary to do so. They did not run alongside the limo 100% of the time. (There
might have been a few exceptions to that policy in some shorter motorcades, especially in foreign countries.)
We also have
Emory Roberts' report and the Secret Service assignment sheet for the Dallas motorcade, which tell us that no extra "running alongside the car" agents were assigned to the Dallas motorcade on 11/22/63.
The report linked above, which was written by SS agent Emory Roberts, puts a stake through the heart of the conspiracy argument about there being any "standdown" at Love Field, because
ALL EIGHT of the Secret Service agents are present and accounted for
IN THE FOLLOW-UP CAR. No extra agents were assigned to walk or run alongside the car. And the configuration of the Secret Service agents that we saw in Dallas was the normal configuration for most JFK motorcades throughout Kennedy's Presidency from what I have been able to determine via photographs and films.
Ergo, the previous statement I made about the agent not running with the car all the way through Dallas is totally accurate for the reasons I talk about above.
David Von Pein
October 25, 2010
May 18, 2017
===================================
ADDENDUM #15:
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Here's yet another picture which helps to debunk the claims of conspiracy theorists. The photo below shows President Kennedy riding in a motorcade in Oakland, California, in March of 1962 (the same caravan, in fact, that took JFK from Alameda to Berkeley, which I talked about earlier). And this photo provides just one more example (among hundreds of others that are available) to drive home the fact that the November 22nd Dallas motorcade was
not lax as far as the security is concerned.
In fact, in this California motorcade in '62, please note the complete lack of any Secret Service agents at all on the running boards of the follow-up car. Plus, there are
NO motorcycles beside JFK's car
at all (even though the crowd is pretty close to the car in the photo). The cycles seen in this Oakland picture are riding some distance
ahead and
behind the President's car. The rear motorcycles, in fact, are riding
behind the follow-up car!
So from those two standpoints alone—the motorcycle security and the SS agents
not being on the running boards—the President's vehicle in Dealey Plaza was much
MORE secure and better protected than it was during this portion of this California parade:
David Von Pein
December 26, 2020
============================
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