JFK ASSASSINATION ARGUMENTS (PART 1296)

LANCE PAYETTE SAID:

I’m clearly upsetting you folks [at The Education Forum] and promise to go on an extended hiatus, but here is why I giggle at 98% of conspiracy theorizing:

1. You’re planning a Presidential assassination.

2. Your chosen patsy will be on the sixth floor of the TSBD.

3. You have no way of knowing or controlling how many people will be in Dealey Plaza or where they will be, how many will have TV, film or still cameras, or how many will be astute observers.

4. If you placed the real shooter(s) elsewhere in the TSBD and/or in the Dal-Tex Building, it would be virtually impossible for anyone to prove the shots had not been fired by your patsy.

5. You could easily complicate the issue of proof (and enhance your chances of a successful assassination) by shooting at JFK both as he came down Houston Street toward your patsy and as he went up Elm Street away from your patsy.

6. Instead, you choose not to shoot at JFK at all as he comes down Houston Street but to place shooter(s) on the Grassy Knoll, in a manhole, on the overpass or at other location(s) in front of JFK as he moves away from your patsy.

7. Because you have made this choice, you must confiscate or alter films and photos, intimidate and murder witnesses, alter the body, fake the autopsy photos and x-rays, terrorize the doctors at Parkland, and do the myriad of other extremely high-risk things conspiracy theorists believe were done; the conspiracy outlined in steps 4 and 5 would have required none of this.

8. Because you have done this, your conspiracy must involve a vast network of seemingly unrelated people and agencies, whereas the conspiracy outlined in steps 4 and 5 would have required no more than a handful of people.

9. Despite confiscating and altering films, intimidating and murdering witnesses, altering the body, faking the autopsy photos and x-rays, terrorizing the doctors at Parkland, and doing the myriad of other extremely high-risk things conspiracy theorists hypothesize were done, you allowed the patsy to walk out the front door of the TSBD.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Indeed. I've been pointing out the obvious flaws in the "Let's Shoot JFK From The Front And Blame A Patsy In The Rear" scenario for years now....

"I've often wondered if ANYONE who believes in the idea that Lee Harvey Oswald was nothing but a mere patsy has ever even pondered upon the pre-assassination thought process that must have been dancing through the collective conspiratorial craniums of those unknown plotters who were the brilliant architects of the incredible plot that featured a lone patsy being framed in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63. .... Did the people who dreamed up this impossible-to-pull-off frame-the-lone-patsy plot really NOT consider the possibility of ALL SIX of the bullets [per the script utilized in Oliver Stone's fantasy film "JFK"] being fired by the three assassins striking President Kennedy (or all six shots hitting SOMEBODY in Dealey Plaza anyway)? .... [Stone's film is] great movie-making, but the 'patsy' plot is just idiotic." -- DVP; 2005 & 2010

More....

The Patsy Plot Silliness (Part 1)

How To Frame A Patsy (And How Not To Do It)

DVP Movie Review For Oliver Stone's "JFK"


RON ECKER SAID:

You can do that by ignoring a likely scenario. It's likely that Oswald was not supposed to be a lone shooter. He was to be the one shooter who got caught. There was obviously more than one shooter. But they decided to claim Oswald was the lone shooter when something went wrong. Like Oswald being taken alive, for example. And obviously claiming that Oswald was a lone shooter makes NO SENSE AT ALL. But they got away with it, and we've seen how they got away with it for 55 years.


LANCE PAYETTE SAID:

The beauty of my request is that you don't have to engage me at all. Just show the rest of the world how the above scenario can be explained in terms of common sense, logic, or any basis other than the conspirators being escapees from an asylum.

One way, of course, is to separate the assassination conspiracy from the cover-up conspiracy. Never mind what the assassination conspiracy was, the cover-up conspiracy was to destroy all evidence of more than one gunman in furtherance of the Lone Nut explanation. But this would have required an elaborate, convoluted, multi-agency effort beginning almost instantaneously after the assassination and continuing for decades thereafter - scarcely more plausible than a unified conspiracy theory.

I thank Ron for his comments. But when you say "Such complications were the choice the assassins made when they decided that it was important that the president be seen butchered in broad daylight," this is an after-the-fact assumption that this is what the assassins wanted. The logical extension of this is what Sandy suggested on the Prayer Man thread: the conspirators were so brazen they didn't even care if their patsy was standing in full view on the steps of the TSBD at the time of the assassination.

Every which way I examine the various conspiracy theories, they all bump their heads on common sense and logic. Jake has pointed out that sometimes the final explanation of an event doesn't mesh with what seemed at first blush like common sense and logic. Sometimes what really happened is truly bizarre. But here we do know there was a Presidential assassination in broad daylight. We do have mountains of evidence as to what occurred. We aren't simply speculating in the dark. .... In these circumstances, it is not unreasonable to say "Show me how what you think happened would have been consistent with rational assassination planning or makes any sense at all."

What I see on the part of conspiracy theorists is an effort to force-fit the square pegs of their theories into the round holes of common sense, logic, evidence and reasonable inferences. They essentially work backwards. You can ignore me (and DVP) and this observation, but I don't believe you can counter it by anything other than more force-fitting of square pegs into round holes. You can say "Nonsense!" or "Ignore him!" or "Easily dismissed!" but I don't believe you can provide a convincing substantive response.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID ALL THIS.


JAKE HAMMOND SAID:

The fact that no one shot on Houston surely suggests that a lone nut in the TSBD was not to blame...


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

You're not thinking things through here, Jake. If Oswald had shot with the car on Houston Street, he would have literally been FACE-TO-FACE (in a sense) with the largest amount of fire power in the motorcade---the Secret Service. Waiting until the cars turned onto Elm makes perfect sense to me. Such a delay guaranteed that all the SS agents (and many of the policemen on motorcycles) would be looking AWAY from Oswald's location, thereby making return fire more difficult.

In addition, as you (Jake) correctly pointed out yourself, an early shot on Houston could have meant an easy escape route for the President, by taking the car straight ahead on Houston instead of turning onto Elm. Perhaps that's another reason Oswald didn't want to attempt a shot on Houston. He knew that if the car got to Elm, there was really no escape routes available at all. The car would be forced to proceed straight on Elm toward the Triple Underpass. No side streets to escape on. Even if the first shot were to miss the target (which I believe it did), Oswald knew he'd still have several more seconds to get off additional shots before the car could possibly speed away from the kill zone.

And based on the Tom Dillard picture of the 6th-floor window (below), which was taken just seconds after the last shot was fired, I think it can practically be proven that the sniper who occupied that Sniper's Nest on the sixth floor of the TSBD had every intention from the get-go of firing at the President only AFTER the limousine had turned onto Elm Street. And I say that because of the configuration of the boxes stacked on the window sill of the sixth floor --- i.e., those boxes are situated in such a way so that the top "rifle rest" box is pointing southwest---down Elm Street (and the corner of that top box is easily visible in Dillard's photo below).

And I think it's reasonable to assume that the assassin placed that top box on the window ledge at some point PRIOR to JFK's car coming into Dealey Plaza. The assassin would not want to be burdened with the chore of rearranging his rifle-rest boxes at the last second or during the assassination attempt itself. I think even most conspiracy theorists would agree with me on that last point.




REPLAY....
RON ECKER SAID:

There was obviously more than one shooter.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Then why does all of the physical evidence point back to just ONE shooter named Oswald on the 6th floor?

Can you answer that last question without interjecting the words "fake", "planted", or "destroyed" into the discussion?


GEOFF HEINRICKS SAID:

What a waste of electricity and bandwidth.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Yeah, I agree. CTers are a waste, aren't they?


GEOFF HEINRICKS SAID:

Thanks for playing. You get a home version of our game, and a $35 gift certificate for Spiegel...


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Chicago 60609???? Great! Thanks.


GEOFF HEINRICKS SAID:

David, you do have a sense of humour (and recall...I forgot the zip code, but recognized it immediately)!


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Thanks, Geoff.

I have to maintain a sense of humor when dealing with JFK conspiracy theorists. For, I ask, how can a reasonable person not bust out laughing when confronted with the proverbial "Multi-Gunmen, One-Patsy" conspiracy theory being discussed in this thread? It's just too laughable for words. Especially when we add in the following layer of absurdity which has been crammed into the theory by this forum's very own Mr. David S. Lifton of Orange County, California....

"It was a plot not just to murder President Kennedy by shooting him, but then (i.e., afterwards) to alter the medical facts of the case (i.e., alter the wounds, remove bullets, etc.) -- all of that done to change the story of how JFK died. To alter the "medical facts" and thus change the "legal facts" as to how JFK died for the FBI, and for any subsequent investigation, whether it was a presidential commission, a congressional investigation, whatever. It would not matter. Viewed that way, this was a plot "with a built-in cover-up"--and was akin to a piece of domestic espionage." -- David Lifton; May 5, 2013

Now, I think all sensible persons with their wits about them can fully agree with me when I say that a robust sense of humor is certainly required after reading the above paragraph.

Would you not concur, Mr. Heinricks? :)


DAVID ANDREWS SAID:

Let me point out that:

Shooting JFK full-frontal on Houston Street and succeeding first obviates the triangulated-fire ambush pattern, and its values of mortal certainty and subterfuge; second, it draws direct attention to a shooter in the TSBD, instead of creating an atmosphere of uncertainty of firing positions, the value of which should be obvious; third, there is enough circumstantial evidence from film and witness reports to determine that the first shots from various positions occurred as the limo turned from Houston onto Elm, which calls Bollocks! on the thematics of your argument (not meaning you, Geoff).


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I love this thread! It's fun to watch the conspiracists flop around as they try to convince themselves that the alleged (and insane) Multi-Gun, Solo-Patsy plot was a plan that a band of JFK-hating assassins would have actually wanted to put into action in 1963.

My favorite part of David Andrews' last post of utter desperation is this....

"...creating an atmosphere of uncertainty of firing positions, the value of which should be obvious."

In other words --- Why make this a fairly simple crime and shoot the target from the location of our lone patsy, when we could make things ultra-complicated and run the risk of exposing the multi-gun plot immediately by firing at Kennedy from God knows how many non-"Patsy" locales, thereby "creating an atmosphere of uncertainty of firing positions, the value of which should be obvious"?

Is it "obvious" to you, Lance?

Yeah, me neither.

But, like I said to Geoff earlier --- "I have to maintain a sense of humor when dealing with JFK conspiracy theorists." :)


DAVID ANDREWS SAID:

Go read the back threads, where this stuff was hashed a long time ago. You're counting on the membership forgetting that we won these arguments.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

So you say. But I say your "Conspiracy" side hasn't won an argument yet.

And you're not even close to winning the "common sense" side of the "Multi-Gun, One-Patsy" argument. That one went to the "Lone Nutters" in the first round.


SANDY LARSEN SAID:

There were two conspiracies --- one to kill Kennedy (and blame it on the Russians and Cubans), and the other to cover up the first.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

And — incredibly! — BOTH "conspiracies" had one very important thing in common --- Frame Lee Harvey Oswald!

What remarkable like-mindedness on the part of the TOTALLY DIFFERENT PEOPLE involved in each of your two make-believe "conspiracies".

Wouldn't you agree with my "remarkable" comment, Sandy?

David Von Pein
December 22-23, 2018

DVP vs. DiEUGENIO (PART 130)

JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

This is the typical three blind mice--Lancie Boy [Lance Payette], FC [Francois Carlier] and DVP--and their appeal to authority. That is, if the HSCA or the WC says something is true, then ipso facto it's true.

They then discount or forget matters when the HSCA was honest enough to say something fatal to the WC: like the HSCA found that Ruby lied during his polygraph test. And further, the FBI rigged the test in advance. To any normal person that would carry the impact of a harpoon through the chest. Somehow, it just runs off their backs like water in a shower: What, me worry?

Now FC, and DVP, like to quote the HSCA report on this matter, right? But yet they do not use the declassified record of the HSCA as produced by the ARRB. None of these guys do. Lancie boy thinks it's the dark side of the moon.

But it's not. It is available and it's been written about. And it directly impacts the HSCA report as written. See, the HSCA knew about what you quote: the doctors at Parkland saying they saw that hole in the rear of the skull. But they said, no these witnesses were mistaken since it disappeared at Bethesda. Well, it did not. And Gary Aguilar found the documents released by the ARRB which showed they knew about these other exhibits they had saying that witnesses at Bethedsa saw this hole also. In other words, the HSCA lied in its report. And when Gary confronted them with this, none of them would accept the blame for writing that prevaricating statement. Not Purdy, not Baden, not Blakey. Real profiles in courage, eh? (The Assassinations, edited by Jim DiEugenio and Lisa Pease, pp. 273-77)

But it's actually worse. See, the HSCA said they used certain photo techniques to recognize patterns in the photos and then claimed they were real. They said that unfortunately they could not find the original camera and lens at the DOD to do an actual comparison test.

Well, guess what, FC? That was not really true either. The ARRB found evidence that the DOD had given the HSCA the camera that was used originally. But the HSCA said that this camera was not the right one since their experts said they could not produce a match. As Gary writes, it may be that the lens had been switched out in the intervening years. But no one can be certain because of the simple matter that the HSCA test results on the camera are gone. So there may be an innocent explanation, and there may not be. (ibid, pp. 279-80) Hard to trust a body in which no one somehow remembers who wrote a rather deceptive description of about 20 witnesses' testimony about the back of JFK's head.

None of these guys does this kind of work. And they do not even read the books where the info can be found. That is why I call them the three blind mice.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

But it's not JUST the authentication of the autopsy photographs and X-rays by the HSCA, Jimmy Boy (which is nice for LNers to have, granted), but there's also the other "photographic" piece of evidence (i.e., "virtual proof") that exists in this case which practically proves, all by itself, that the conspiracy theorists don't have a leg to stand on when they keep insisting that JFK had a huge hole in his occipital---the Zapruder Film. So, is that film a fake and a fraud too, Jim?

In your plethora of appearances since 2006 on Len Osanic's All Conspiracy Radio Network, Inc., I've noticed that you've been hesitant to come right out and admit that you think the Z-Film is phony. Around the edges of your comments, you've hinted at possible Z-Film fakery, but, unlike your CT-loving colleagues, you've stayed away from totally endorsing such a silly notion. Maybe you'd like to now go on the record and state your unequivocal opinion regarding the topic of "Zapruder Film Fakery/Forgery". Eh, Jim?

Because if the Z-Film isn't a big fat lie (at least as far as this "BOH" discussion is concerned), then how can you possibly still maintain that President Kennedy had a big hole in the back part of his skull after he was shot in the head? The Z-Film shows no such back-of-the-head blow-out.



"Lest anyone still has any doubt as to the location of the large exit wound in the head...the Zapruder film itself couldn't possibly provide better demonstrative evidence. The film proves conclusively, and beyond all doubt, where the exit wound was. Zapruder frame 313 (when the president's head exploded) and frame 328 (almost a second later) clearly show that the large, gaping exit wound was to the right front of the president's head. The back of his head shows no such large wound and clearly is completely intact." [Bugliosi's emphasis.] -- Vincent Bugliosi; Page 410 of "Reclaiming History"


JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

OMG, Davey, so you ignored everything I wrote, correct?

About the HSCA report giving the wrong info in their report what you and FC relied upon, right?

Then you ignore the stuff about the camera also and how the HSCA fudged that one.

And now you bring up the Z film as the last bastion?

I am not big on the Z film alteration, that is true. But if you really listened to me, what I have said is that if there is such a case, the Wilkersons have made a pretty good argument for it being just about this issue: the rear skull wound was blacked out.

Can we now drop this. Like Soupy Sales, you never get tired of the custard pie in the face, do you?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

And I think I've made a pretty good argument [below] to show that nobody "blacked out" anything in the Z-Film....




SANDY LARSEN SAID:

The big difference between what you believe and what I believe is this: I can give a reasonable explanation for the most glaring and obvious contradiction regarding the location of the head wound, whereas you CAN'T.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

You think that your claim that has the autopsy pictures being fakes is a "reasonable explanation"? I beg to differ. Such a conclusion is not "reasonable" at all. Far from it. It's nothing but utter desperation. And, furthermore, such a conclusion has been proven to be incorrect. Just check out 7 HSCA 41 yet again. (But you think all 20 experts on that Photo Panel lied their eyes out, don't you? Which is yet another unreasonable conclusion to reach, of course.)

And that's what we're left with most of the time with JFK conspiracy theorists --- a series of unreasonable explanations and wholly unsupportable conclusions.


SANDY LARSEN SAID:

Sure it's a reasonable explanation... because it's possible.

In contrast, you believe that 20 medical professionals at Parkland all saw the wrong thing, and that twenty more at Bethesda also saw the same wrong thing. And you think THAT is reasonable?? It's utter lunacy!


JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

Davey:

I hate to repeat this again, but you cannot be serious about that alleged authentication?

As Gary Aguilar pointed out many years ago, not only did the HSCA misrepresent the witness testimony on this issue, they also misrepresented the fact that they could not find the original autopsy camera. They did. But they could not get a photographic match. So they then said well, the camera lens or shutter must have been altered. Which may or my not be true. But the ARRB--you do know who they were right?--could not find the notes on the experiment they did to determine such a thing occurred.

Further, if the x rays are authenticated as the originals, then how does one explain the appearing 6.5 mm fragment that was not there originally, and the disappearing particle trail that was there originally and then vanished? Because you do not mention them, does this mean they do not exist? In your world of faith, maybe. But in our real world of testimony and evidence, they do exist. As do the densitometry readings of Mantik as described by Doug Horne in Volume 2 of Inside the ARRB.

Again, I do not know if you simply hide all this data in order to mislead, or are somehow unaware of it. Maybe it's a mixture of the two. But really, it's an unflattering display for you and your web site. Why not stick to Leave it to Beaver?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Of course I'm serious. You know that I am. The HSCA did numerous tests to confirm the validity of all of the original autopsy photos AND X-rays. Read their conclusions again——starting RIGHT HERE. It's pretty detailed. Is all of that information nothing but a pack of lies? All of it!!? Come now.

Is there anything in this case you don't think is phony? At some point, the "Everything Is Fake" mantra repeated by conspiracists becomes very tiresome, desperate-sounding, and—quite frankly—very silly.


JIM HARGROVE SAID:

The best evidence indicates that Tippit was actually killed at about 1:06 p.m.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

One of the very best reasons (logically-speaking) to know that J.D. Tippit was not killed as early as 1:06 is because we know that Domingo Benavides didn't start pumping Tippit's microphone until 1:16 PM.

If Tippit had been shot at 1:06, that means we'd have to believe that Benavides waited for TEN FULL MINUTES to get into Tippit's car and use the radio. And there's no way in the world there was a TEN-minute gap between the actual shooting and Domingo pumping that radio microphone.

Just do a test of your own---sit at your desk and say "START", and then wait for 10 minutes until you do something else. If you do that, you'll see how absurd it would be to believe that Benavides waited for 10 full minutes to get into Tippit's patrol car.

Or would you like to now pretend that Benavides' initial (failed) attempt to use the police radio occurred much earlier than 1:16 (despite the "pumping" noises heard on the DPD Radio Tapes at 1:16, which I believe were first discovered by Dale Myers in the late '90s, and which occur about 90 seconds before T.F. Bowley's successful attempt to report the shooting via the same radio in Tippit's car)?


JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

DVP neatly sidesteps the fact that Jim [Hargrove] just showed how the FBI altered the evidence.

Geez Davey, why do you not just scream and jump up and down and say, "What do you mean it's all fake?"


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Was the Dudley Hughes "1:18" ambulance slip "altered" too, Jim?


INSTANT REPLAY....
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

DVP neatly sidesteps the fact that Jim just showed how the FBI altered the evidence.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

You CTers really are the epitome of One Trick Ponies. I don't think there has been one piece of evidence in the JFK case that hasn't been deemed "fake", "altered", or "planted" by at least one conspiracy theorist at one time or another since 1963.

Let's just review some of those pieces of evidence (just off the top of my head; I'm sure there are dozens of additional examples as well)....

....The autopsy photos --- fake.

....The autopsy X-rays --- fake.

....John F. Kennedy's body --- altered.

....JFK's brain --- stolen, switched, tampered with, and/or deep-sixed by evil conspirators.

....Mannlicher-Carcano rifle #C2766 --- stolen from Ruth Paine's garage and/or planted on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building in order to frame Lee Harvey Oswald.

....The entire paper trail for LHO's rifle purchase --- fake.

....The entire paper trail for LHO's revolver purchase --- fake.

....The Backyard Photos of Oswald --- fake.

....Commission Exhibit 399 (the "Stretcher Bullet") --- fake.

....The two large bullet fragments found in JFK's limo --- fake/planted.

....The 3 bullet shells in the Sniper's Nest --- fake/planted.

....The 38-inch empty brown paper bag found in the Sniper's Nest --- fake/planted.

....The Zapruder Film --- fake/altered.

....The paper bus transfer found in Oswald's shirt pocket --- fake/planted.

....Any and all identification cards found on Lee Oswald's person on 11/22/63 that had the name "Alek J. Hidell" on them --- fake/planted.

....The limousine's windshield --- replaced immediately in order to hide the real evidence from view.

....Commission Exhibit No. 15 (Oswald's 11/9/63 letter to the Russian Embassy in Washington) --- fake.

....The four bullet shells found at the Tippit murder site --- fake/planted.

....Some of the DPD Radio Logs --- fake/altered.

....The two blank Klein's ads found among Oswald's belongings in Ruth Paine's garage on 11/23/63 --- planted.

....All of the evidence indicating that Lee Oswald fired a rifle shot at General Edwin Walker on 4/10/63 (including Commission Exhibit No. 1, LHO's handwritten note to Marina) --- fake.

Whew! Those patsy framers were sure busy!

And when a list like the above is assembled, it's easy to see just how ridiculously over the top the conspiracy theorists have taken their silly fantasies regarding the alleged "fake" evidence in the JFK and Tippit murder cases. For if all of the above items had truly been faked and/or manufactured by a gang of conspirators and/or cover-up operatives in 1963, then I think every reasonable person reading this post should be able to agree with me when I say that miracles are, indeed, possible.

And yet, somehow, amazingly, the JFK conspiracy theorists who continue to promote the idea that most of the evidence in the Kennedy case is fraudulent still seem to be proud of their over-the-top beliefs---even though it involves a belief in the impossible (and a belief in miracles).

Go figure.


JIM HARGROVE SAID:

Question: How much of the evidence against “Lee Harvey Oswald” is fake?

Answer: ALL OF IT, except, of course, for the many mistakes made during the hasty cover-up.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Thanks, Jim Hargrove, for putting that belief in writing (and in a succinct form). I'll now be able to use your quote whenever I want to highlight yet another CTer's absurd "Over The Top" beliefs relating to the evidence in the John F. Kennedy murder case. Much obliged. (And the placing of quotation marks around Lee Harvey Oswald's name is another humorous little idiosyncrasy to be found among the current batch of 21st-century conspiracy fantasists. As if there was actually more than one "Lee Harvey Oswald". Too cute.)


JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

That story by [Dale] Myers [linked here] is hilarious.

Sort of like Davey finding that postal worker who said, "Heck yeah, we can deliver a package 700 miles and have the guy get it within 12 hours. Even without zip codes. Do it all the time."


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Oh how quickly James DiEugenio forgets the things I've told him in the past. Such as THIS AUDIO CLIP from a radio program that aired in January of 1952! And this letter is making a 3,000-mile trip, not just 700 miles. And it's making the cross-country trip in helicopters and propeller-driven aircraft, not jet aircraft! ....

"You could mail a letter in San Bernardino [California] tonight, and it would be in New York tomorrow morning."




SANDY LARSEN SAID:

I don't think so, Dave.

First, I doubt that post offices were even open in the evening back then. Second, once the mail arrived in New York in the morning, it would still need sorting and delivery.

I think that the point of this postal worker's statement was that any mail collected and sorted by the end of the workday in San Bernardino, California would be in New York (City?) the following morning... waiting to be sorted and delivered. Of course it would arrive that quickly, having been transported by helicopter to the airport and then to NYC by airplane.

Though, granted, the sorting may have been completed that morning. And possibly the delivery.

Air mail has never been very fast during my adult lifetime. It takes at least a couple days to receive a letter from anywhere, even from my next door neighbor. (A letter from Provo first goes to SLC, and then back to Provo.)

(My apologies, Jim, if I stepped on your toes with this reply, given that the question was addressed to you.)


JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

Davey:

As Sandy noted above, it does not mean one thing that you found a fruity postal worker to say what you wanted him to say.

The point is, I live in California. I know what it takes to deliver a letter in a big city--WITH ZIP CODES and censors etc.

I can mail a letter from say Long Beach to Chatsworth, and a lot of the time it will not get there in one day. I know since I have done it.

So saying, well it got on a plane and went there--that means little or nothing.

It's what happens before and after that counts.

And what you are proposing simply will not pass the reality test, in state. Forget going across the country. That is pure fantasy land.

But, you spend a lot of time there.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I don't need to fly to Fantasy Land to prove my point about Oswald's letter. I've got rock solid PROOF that it travelled from Dallas to Chicago in one day. And that proof is in the form of the three documents pictured below (CE773, CE788, and Waldman Exhibit No. 7).

CE773 is clearly dated March 12 (10:30 AM);

CE788 [the money order Oswald bought at the Post Office] clearly has the date of March 12 on it;

And Waldman No. 7 [the Klein's internal order form for Oswald's rifle purchase] has the date March 13 stamped at the top of it.

Now, just try convincing a reasonable jury of 12 men and women that all three of these documents are fake (which clearly is the fantastic belief possessed by most of the Internet conspiracy theorists here in the 21st century)....









REPLAY....
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

Davey:

It does not mean one thing that you found a fruity postal worker to say what you wanted him to say.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Oh, so you think that I myself arranged to have this guy who works for Los Angeles Airways to appear on Groucho Marx's radio program in 1952 so that he could talk about being able to get a letter to travel from California to New York in less than a day?

Seeing as how I wasn't even born until 1961, that would have been a nifty little trick on my part, wouldn't it? :)

Or maybe you got mixed up and were really referring to the time I received the assistance of former postal worker Jimmy Orr when talking about the topic of Oswald's rifle order---in this discussion.


JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

Davey:

Don't even bring that whole phony rifle transaction up again, OK.

It's a loser. We found two bank supervisors and Sandy found the regulation. David Josephs also did fine work on it. In fact, I think it all looks worse now. Even with your fruity postal worker, who I am sure will also vouch for the Single Bullet Fantasy.

But, in another sense, your continuing and appalling attitude that the idea that the FBI or DPD would not fiddle around with evidence? I mean do you know how silly and naive you sound in light of what is known today?

The DPD was the single most corrupt big city police force in America at that time. No city has had more serious crimes reversed due to DNA evidence than Dallas. I mean there are whole states that are not as bad as that city was in this regard. Also, as Joe McBride has shown, there was a significant number of Klansmen on that force. Think they liked Kennedy? I mean you heard what Alexander said about Kennedy, right? You heard what Leavelle said also?

How do you reconcile what I think is your admiration for JFK with those comments? Do I need to repeat them for you?

As per the FBI, you cannot be serious: with that wide-eyed open mouthed disbelief about the practices of J. Edgar Hoover. I mean, please. Are you still psychologically in sixth grade on this aspect of the case? You do know how many devastating exposes have been written about how badly Hoover either faked or altered evidence in high profile cases, and then lied about it afterwards, right? There are several books on this subject, the one I refer to most is Gentry's. If you want me to be specific, I will. But this extended as far as having double agents planted in communist cells who would then create evidence and testify falsely on the stand against some poor innocent lefty. Does it get worse than that for an FBI director?

Now, recall, in these other cases there was at least the semblance of an adversary system in court. In other words, the defendant had an attorney, judge, and rules of evidence and testimony were in play.

NONE OF THAT EXISTED IN THE JFK CASE!

Therefore, it was even easier to get away with this stuff than in a normal case. So what was going to stop Hoover from doing this kind of thing? Or the CIA, or the Secret Service?

So for you to sit there misty eyed and argue, "Are you saying the FBI or DPD would not play by the rules?" And then play something like the Battle Hymn of the Republic in the background--I mean do you know how ignorant that kind of view of America is? You might still believe in Leave it to Beaver. And Ozzie and Harriet.

After Vietnam, Cambodia, Watergate, the revelations of the Church Committee and the Pike Committee and myriad other crimes and scandals, most adults do not.


QUICK REPLAY....
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

Davey:

Don't even bring that whole phony rifle transaction up again, OK.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Don't be silly, Jimmy. The "rifle transaction" subject is one of my very favorite topics in this whole case. I've spent many many hours working on the two pages of info linked below. So, of course I'm going to bring it up as often as I possibly can, mainly because (IMO) my arguments (and hard evidence) surrounding the "rifle" topic are so much better, believable, and sensible than anything the conspiracy fantasists have countered with since 1963.



David Von Pein
December 17, 2018—January 2, 2019


================================

ANOTHER DISCUSSION....


JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

Connally said he never bought the official story for five seconds.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

And yet Mr. Connally said all this pro-Warren Commission stuff on November 23, 1966 (at 6:03 and 7:16). Go figure....



The best part of the above 1966 press conference is when John Connally called Mark Lane a "journalistic scavenger". Hear, hear!

DiEugenio and others will no doubt say that Connally (much like Robert Kennedy) was in the habit of saying one thing to the "MSM", but behind closed doors, Connally was saying something entirely different. But after listening to interviews and news conferences with John Connally (like the one above), I begin to wonder about the claims coming from CTers, such as DiEugenio's claim above---"Connally said he never bought the official story for five seconds". Is there any audio or video of Connally actually saying anything like that at all? If such audio or video exists, I've certainly never heard or seen it.


JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

Davey cut out the other part of the quote.

When the reporter asked him [John Connally] why he did not say anything about it, he said that the country needed closure. (McBride, Into the Nightmare, p. 418)


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Are you saying that the 8-minute press conference video I posted also should have contained Connally saying something about "needing closure"? Did Joseph McBride cite the 11/23/66 Connally News Conference as his source for that "closure" comment?

If not, do you have a video or audio clip of Connally saying that? Or is it just a text quote coming from a CTer? Just curious.


JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

And he [Connally] always insisted he was hit by a separate shot. And he told the same thing to Groden when he and his wife visited Dealey Plaza.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Big deal.

In my opinion, he almost certainly got most of his SBT criticism from his wife, Nellie, who never believed the SBT either. But, as I have been saying for many years, John Connally is (literally) the VERY LAST PERSON in the world who can say FOR SURE whether he and JFK were struck by the same bullet --- and that's because: John Connally, as he himself has said, did not see JFK at any time after the shooting started.

I truly think that I could have convinced John Connally of the truth of the Single-Bullet Theory in about 2 minutes if I could have shown him my webpage linked below.

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/02/sbt-clips.html

After viewing those Zapruder Film clips, Mr. Connally would have had no choice but to say to me --- "I was wrong. I can see now that I was reacting to the shot that hit me as early as Z225. Thanks for the clips, DVP."

David Von Pein
December 17, 2018

DVP vs. DiEUGENIO (PART 129)

JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

Every step of the way, the Single Bullet Fantasy collapses under scrutiny.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

That's total nonsense, Jim. In fact, when a sensible and reasonable person looks at all of the variables pertaining to the Single-Bullet Theory, it becomes blatantly obvious that the SBT is the only conclusion that makes any sense at all [as I explain in great detail at the link below].



No other (anti-SBT) theory comes even close. And nobody on the "CT" side of the fence has ever come forward with an alternate theory to share with the world that isn't completely laughable. Why don't you be the first, Jim? I'd love to hear your shot-by-shot anti-SBT theory. Give it a shot. I'm overdue for my daily belly-laugh anyway.


JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

Davey:

The Single Bullet Fantasy never happened. It's that simple. When that obviously planted bullet was found, the WC was stuck with it. Because if they did not use it, then they would have to admit that 1.) not only was there a conspiracy, but 2.) the cover up was working in hand with the plot; or why else plant the bullet--albeit on the wrong stretcher.

In every single forensic element, the SBF is simply and completely indefensible. That is why the story changed three times within two months of the shooting.

If Larry Schnapf ever gets the money to complete his real computer simulation, he is going to utterly humiliate Dale Myers and his cartoon. (Although Bob Harris already has.)

Now your side has fallen back to the stance that, well see, it's more coherent than anything you guys have. What shamelessness. As Bob Tanenbaum once said, this is like the prosecution saying to the defense, "What have you got?" See, it does not work like that in the real world. The defense is not mandated to prove its case. The prosecution has to do that and you cannot. But even with that, I have tried to put together a scenario in Destiny Betrayed which I think is pretty solid. But the thing is, the WC screwed up the evidence so badly when the trail was warm, that it makes it that much harder to find out what really happened. Especially today, after the ARRB did not fulfill its mandate properly and Trump is still on bended knee with the CIA.

So please, that ignorant and smart aleck bluster might make you feel good, (for what reason I do not know). And it may help you score points with the likes of FC [Francois Carlier], Reitzes and McAdams. But as far as a real world inquiry into the facts, it's just junior high school smart alecky stuff.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

OK, "Jimmy". Whatever you say.

Reprise ..... The Ultimate In SBT Denial


JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

That evidence about the probes is really strong for the fact the bullet did not transit.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

And that has been reasonably explained by Dr. Boswell. But I'm guessing that Jim D. doesn't like this explanation about the "probing" at all. Right, Jim?....

"We probed this hole which was in his neck with all sorts of probes and everything, and it was such a small hole, basically, and the muscles were so big and strong and had closed the hole and you couldn't get a finger or a probe through it." -- Dr. J.T. Boswell; February 1996; ARRB Testimony


INSTANT REPLAY....
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

...and Trump is still on bended knee with the CIA.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Jim's reference above to President Donald J. Trump gives me a good excuse to post this video that I found a few weeks ago lurking on YouTube. It's Off-Topic, yes, but it's worth it because it's so darn hilarious....




David Von Pein
December 11-16, 2018


================================

SANDY LARSEN SAID:

Do you believe it was Oswald himself who spoke over the phone with the consulates in Spanish and broken Russian?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Either that, or somebody mixed up the calls (and the callers). Because there was certainly NOT an "imposter Oswald" roaming the streets of Mexico City in September and October of 1963. And the main reason we can be certain of that fact is because----

The one and only "real" Lee Harvey Oswald positively DID travel by bus to Mexico City in late September '63. That fact has been proven in many different ways, not the least of which is available in Oswald's own words in Commission Exhibit No. 15.

Do you really think this is a fake letter, Sandy (complete with a fake LHO signature)?....




SANDY LARSEN SAID:

Yes, Dave, that is a fake letter. It was sent by the CIA to the Russian Embassy as part of its plan to blame JFK's assassination on Russia and Cuba.

There are two possible reasons why the CIA wanted the blame to go to Russia and Cuba. 1) The assassination was a false flag operation that would give the United States an excuse to invade Cuba; or 2) it was a scheme to get President Johnson to do a coverup. Which he did, because he wanted to avoid a potential WW3.

I'm still trying to figure out for myself which of those two possibilities was the case.

BTW, it's easy to forge a letter like that and to fake a signature.

Another BTW... if we were living in the sixties and debating whether or not the CIA was overthrowing governments and killing foreign leaders, you'd be denying it all while we CTers would be exploring the evidence. You'd be denying that the CIA was secretly testing LSD on unwitting civilians. You'd be denying that the government was knowingly exposing American citizens to dangerous radioactive fallout. And on and on.

You'd be wrong on all counts, just like you're wrong about the Kennedy assassination.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

"Yes, Dave, that is a fake letter." -- S. Larsen

Yeah, naturally. Why did I even bother to ask? Everything inconvenient to CTers is fake.

What a cop-out. Unbelievable.

~~~~~~~~~~~

Mexico City Addendum....

I've yet to get an answer from any conspiracy theorist to this question I asked 8 years ago....







JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

Davey:

Who was Kostin?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Kostikov. Oswald just got the name wrong.


JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

Davey, you are going to tell me that Oswald, who spoke fluent Russian, somehow talked to this guy who was named Kostikov about getting an in-transit visa to Russia from Cuba, and he screwed up his name that badly?

Now, you do know that there was a Soviet agent named Kostin, right?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

No, I didn't.


JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

You are aware of the other serious problem with that letter, right?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Re: CE15 and the envelope.... 




JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

In the letter, Oswald says he met with Hosty and Hosty gave him a warning.

Davey, when did Hosty meet with Oswald, prior to MC [Mexico City] or directly after?

And that is not all. But I am surprised you missed that obvious faux pas.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

In the November 9th letter in question [Commission Exhibit No. 15], Lee Oswald tells us the exact date of Hosty's visit---November 1. But Oswald then goes on to tell one of the multiple lies that he told in the letter by implying that he and Hosty met face-to-face, which, of course, never happened on Nov. 1 (or on Nov. 5).

But let me get this straight, Jim....

You think the CE15 letter is totally bogus, right? And yet you think that the plotters who concocted that letter would want to put things in it that would tend to PROVE its "bogus" status? That's similar to crooks who have a desire to videotape their own heists, isn't it? Were your "plotters" really that stupid? Or could it be---just maybe!---that the great James DiEugenio of Los Angeles is full of beans when it comes to CE15 (and so many other matters regarding the events of November 22, 1963)?

(I'll vote for the latter option.)


JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

Davey:

Did the reality that these were not facts, but actually false, did that influence any of the members of the WC or the FBI to suspect that something was up with the letter?

Answer: No.

And in fact when you trotted it out a couple of days ago to say, "See, Oswald was in Mexico", did you acknowledge any of these problems with the letter?

Answer: No.

Would you have acknowledged them if I had not brought them up.

Answer: No.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Jim,

Do you think the letter (CE15) is a "fake" letter, which was written (and signed) by someone other than Lee Harvey Oswald?

(Silly question, I know. But I'm just looking for confirmation of that belief.)


JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

Note DVP did not contest any of the answers I gave above, that is NO NO and NO.

Davey:

Is it utterly impossible for you to tell the whole story about any piece of evidence in this case?

Answer: Yes.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Jimmy:

Is it utterly impossible for you to fairly and reasonably and rationally look at a piece of evidence in the JFK case (any piece at all!) without concluding that that piece of evidence was faked, planted, or manufactured by someone?

Answer: Yes.


REPLAY....
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

...did you acknowledge any of these problems with the letter?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Jim,

What you think of as "problems" with the letter are, in fact, mostly just the deliberate LIES being told by a person--Lee Harvey Oswald--who liked to LIE when it suited his needs. And the "Kostin" error was likely just an honest mistake on Oswald's part.


JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

You did not answer my question, did you?

Instead you went into our usual tantrum about "Everything is fake!"

This is a diversion on your part since you cannot face the facts on this particular issue on which you thought you had a slam dunk: See, LHO was in Mexico.

It backfired on you. The name was wrong, LHO did not meet with Hosty, and he could not have known the diplomat was transferred. Plus that diplomat said he never met with Oswald. That is four strikes.

Those are facts that you do not want to deal with. And you escape into a world of assumptions, just like the WC did.

I never said the letter was a fake. That is something you said about me that is false. I indicated that there were serious problems with the letter. Problems you want to paper over and never bring up.

I recommend everyone read this article on the letter.

It is an honest treatment of the facts, facts which DVP does not want to detail.


A GLORIOUS REPRISE....
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

And you escape into a world of assumptions...


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Geesh! A CTer is whining about an LNer escaping into "a world of assumptions"????

That's hypocrisy at its finest indeed.


JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

Davey:

There is a difference between making assumptions that are based on the evidence, versus making them in spite of the evidence.

The WC did the latter all day and every day. So did Bugliosi. Whenever there was a problem with the evidence, Bugliosi would say, well that is OK since we know Oswald did it.

Recall, the WC and VB are the prosecution. Not the defense. They had the burden of proof. Therefore, they should not be able to use many assumptions, particularly when they clash with the evidence. Especially considering the high standard to prove guilt in a murder case.

But see, if you recall, Oswald was murdered, literally in the arms of the Dallas Police. After screaming he was just a patsy, he never got his day in court. Unlike the Nazis at Nuremburg, he never even had a lawyer.

I find it interesting that he was rubbed out the morning after he made the Raleigh call to John Hurt.

Which is another thing I was going to ask you:

Did the WC know about Oswald's Saturday night call to John Hurt?


FOUR MINUTES LATER, JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

Let me answer my own question, since DVP will take 12 hours to reply.

There is no evidence that they did know about this call. Which now makes about 9 instances where the WC could not get to the bottom of a key incident or did not know about it.

I urge everyone to read this fine article on the Raleigh Call. You will never see anything like this posted by DVP or FC or the Arizona lawyer [Lance Payette]. Please read this all the way through, it brings up some very real questions about what Oswald was thinking in detention with no lawyer.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

But every one of those things WAS known to the HSCA. And what again did the HSCA conclude?.....

They concluded that only Oswald fired shots that wounded JFK and John Connally.

But, per CTers, we're supposed to believe that this SECOND official investigation into the President's death was corrupt too, even though that very same committee DID conclude there was a "probable conspiracy" in the case. Go figure the logic of the CTers when it comes to sorting out that dichotomy.

It's always a fascinating pastime to watch the CTers preach to me about how the HSCA came to a conclusion that Oswald did not act alone, but then those same conspiracists will, in their next breath, talk about how they think that same HSCA "covered up" this or "falsified" that --- e.g.:

Most Internet CTers believe that the 20 members of the HSCA's Photographic Panel decided to lie through their collective teeth when they concluded that there was no fakery whatsoever to be detected in any of Oswald Backyard Photos and there was also no signs of any "altered" images amongst any of the JFK autopsy photos or X-rays.

Plus, there are the bald-faced liars, per many conspiracy theorists, who were part of the HSCA's handwriting panel, which concluded that all of the various documents allegedly written in Lee Harvey Oswald's own handwriting or handprinting WAS, indeed, the actual handwriting and/or printing of Lee Oswald and was not the result of fakery or forgery.

That makes over two dozen rotten liars among just those two HSCA sub-panels alone. And the CTers have no problem at all believing that those 2 dozen or so people decided to toss their morals and scruples out the nearest window in order to paint Lee Oswald as an assassin (even though, per the CTers, those people had to know they were reporting something to the public that was exactly the OPPOSITE from the actual truth).

Call me stupid and naive, but I just don't think you could get SO MANY different people, working for the same investigative organization, to tell one lie after another concerning the various pieces of evidence connected with the JFK case.

A good question, IMO, to ask is --- How is it possible to get so many JFK conspiracy theorists to believe that so many people (ranging from the Bethesda autopsy doctors, to the Warren Commission, to the Clark Panel, to the HSCA) would be willing to tell so many lies---for decades on end---regarding virtually everything connected with Lee Oswald and the assassination of John F. Kennedy? Has the "research" world gone crazy? Or were they all merely hypnotized by the clever and deceptive Mark Lane way back in 1964? The answer to that inquiry remains a mystery to me.


ANOTHER REPLAY....
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

I never said the letter [CE15] was a fake. That is something you said about me that is false.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Who do you think you're kidding, Jim? Of course you think the letter is a fake and a fraud. You have no choice BUT to believe it's a fake letter.

Why?

Because you have said repeatedly in the past that you do not believe that Lee Harvey Oswald ever visited the Cuban and Russian embassies/consulates in Mexico City in September of 1963.

And since the bulk of Oswald's letter in CE15 deals with Oswald admitting the fact that he did, indeed, go to both of those locations in Mexico City, then how could you possibly NOT think that that letter was totally phony?

Or maybe you've changed your mind and you now want to admit that Oswald did, indeed, visit the Cuban and Russian embassies in '63. Is that what you want to do now, James? If not, then you have no choice but to believe that the letter we find with Oswald's signature on it in Commission Exhibit No. 15 is a totally fake document. So why pretend you believe otherwise?

David Von Pein
December 12-14, 2018

JFK ASSASSINATION ARGUMENTS (PART 1295)

CORY SANTOS SAID:

Do you agree or disagree that DCM [Dark Complected Man] sits down on the curb, puts a radio up to his face and turns towards the grassy knoll.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I can't fully agree with that statement re: DCM, because we don't know for a fact that DCM was carrying any "radio" with him at all. You're just guessing. (CTers do a lot of that, I've noticed.)


CORY SANTOS SAID:

You agree DCM sits on the curb?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Yes.


CORY SANTOS SAID:

You agree DCM looks towards the grassy knoll?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Yes. But, so what? A lot of people were looking (and running) toward the Grassy Knoll at that time. DCM was merely watching the various people run up the slope.

You actually think that because DCM merely LOOKED toward the Grassy Knoll, that fact signifies something "conspiratorial" on his part? If so, you're really desperate to grasp any straw you can find, aren't you?


CORY SANTOS SAID:

Do you agree he has something up to his face?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Not necessarily. The thing you think he's got up to his mouth might just be part of the person standing to his right-rear. I can't tell. The picture's not clear enough. (See the photo montage below.) But I doubt that he's holding anything at all. He certainly has nothing in his right hand in the clearer picture just to the right of the fuzzier one. And those photos seem to have been taken at almost an identical point in time. Take note of the position of DCM's left hand and arm in both images. The position of that arm looks exactly the same to me.


CLICK TO ENLARGE:


CORY SANTOS SAID:

Do you agree this thing appears to have an antenna?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Very hard to tell. The thing you think is an antenna could easily be something else or a photo anomaly. I can see the same type of "straight white line" formed on the back of the uniform of the motorcycle cop in the very same image. What do you think caused that white line? It's certainly not an antenna on the policeman's back.

But let me ask you this:

Are you really suggesting that Mr. Dark Complected Man was part of some assassination plot, and he just casually and calmly decided to get on his walkie-talkie and radio in a message of some kind to his co-plotters within seconds of the shooting --- right out in the open where he knew he was being photographed and filmed?

Talk about some large-sized gonads! Mr. DCM sure had those, didn't he?

Bottom Line:

All the suspicions about "DCM" and "Umbrella Man" and "Black Dog Man" and (a newer one) "Tan Jacket Man" are nothing more than that --- unsupportable "suspicions" by conspiracy believers who are looking for conspirators behind every bush and retaining wall and oak tree in Dealey Plaza—and even right out in the open on Elm Street with open umbrellas and walkie-talkies while being filmed performing their conspiratorial work. It's just plain (dare I say it again?)——silly.

David Von Pein
December 11-12, 2018