Part 1367 of my "JFK Assassination Arguments" series includes a variety of my posts and comments covering the period of August 1—31, 2023. To read the entire forum discussion from which my own comments have been extracted, click on the "Full Discussion" logo at the bottom of each individual segment.
BILL BROWN SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
FWIW....
In J.D. Tippit's last radio transmission concerning his location, I definitely can hear a "K" (or hard C) sound being uttered by Tippit, which almost certainly eliminates "Lansing" from the mix. And while the "S" in Lancaster can't be discerned, I think the "er" at the end of "Lancaster" can be heard. Sounds like an "er" to my ears anyway. It's at 5:04 in this video.
GERRY DOWN SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I'm not hearing even a hint of an S. But I'm certainly hearing the K sound, plus the ER.
I've looped the Tippit transmission several times HERE.
David Von Pein
August 15, 2023
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MERVYN HAGGER SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Mervyn,
The written section at the bottom of this arrest report showing the "other details of the arrest" was quite obviously not written at 1:40 PM (the time noted at the top of the card). Those details had to have been placed on that arrest card at a time considerably later than 1:40. In fact, there's no way that anything on that card was written as early as 1:40 PM, because Oswald wasn't even arrested in the theater until about 1:50 PM, and much of the information shown on the card wasn't confirmed by the Dallas police until much later than 1:40.
Therefore, given the above time factors, this statement made by Mervyn Hagger — "But within one hour, the Dallas Police Department has solved two murders and arrested the lone suspect. Simply amazing police work. Not" — is not a fair or accurate statement at all.
MERVYN HAGGER SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
But as far as that particular "Arrest Card" is concerned, we cannot possibly know exactly what time (or even what day, for that matter) that arrest report was written out. (I know of no specific info in the Warren Commission volumes that gives us that precise information. Do you?)
But one thing I do know for certain (based on logic and common sense) is this --- that arrest report most certainly was NOT written up at 1:40 PM CST on 11/22/63. Not even close. It was filled out much later than that.
MERVYN HAGGER SAID THIS AND THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Mervyn, are you really suggesting that this arrest report was written at 1:40 PM Dallas time on November 22nd?
You surely aren't seriously advocating such an absurd position regarding that DPD arrest report....are you? Because it couldn't be more obvious that that report was filled out much later than 1:40. (As I mentioned before, Oswald wasn't even in custody until 1:50 PM!)
As to the possibility of the arrest report in question being a fake document, I really don't know for sure. But unlike a lot of conspiracy promoters, I'm not a person who is constantly claiming that documents have been manufactured by the authorities in order to frame the so-called patsy named Oswald. Therefore, I have no good reason to believe it's a phony document.
As for the conclusions reached by the Dallas Police Department at the bottom of the arrest report, I agree 100% with those conclusions. Based on the evidence, Oswald did, indeed, kill JFK and Officer Tippit.
But I'm not contradicting my own approach to "hard evidence", Mervyn. And the arrest report isn't really "hard evidence" anyway. It's merely a brief report providing us with the opinion of the people at DPD who were at that time processing and evaluating the "hard evidence" in the Kennedy and Tippit murder cases.
I'm merely using my common sense to evaluate the timing of when the Oswald arrest report was created (which you don't seem to be factoring in at all). Given all the information we have concerning the gathering of the physical evidence against Lee Oswald, plus the "time" factors of when the Dallas police became aware of certain things concerning Oswald, I think it's safe to say that that arrest report was filled out much later than 1:40 PM on Nov. 22.
Now, you might want to argue that the Dallas police shouldn't have been so bold as to place this definitive statement on their Oswald arrest report:
"This man shot and killed President John F. Kennedy and Police Officer J.D. Tippit."
But, based on the overwhelming evidence of Oswald's guilt that was collected within the first few hours after both Kennedy and Tippit were murdered, such a statement can, indeed, be looked upon as a wholly accurate one.
STEVE THOMAS SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Thanks, Steve, for providing this link to the full-sized (non-truncated) version of the Oswald arrest report being discussed in this thread (also seen below).
Now we know it's not a fake report, and we now know who the author of the report was (Dallas Police Officer M.N. McDonald).
DAVID VON PEIN ALSO SAID:
Click Here to see another version of the arrest report which doesn't include the "Deceased" stamp. This version also includes an extra charge: "Assault to Murder" (related to the wounding of John Connally).
And a third different version can be seen here.
MERVYN HAGGER SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I had no idea Mervyn Hagger was so far out there in the "outer fringe".
David Von Pein
August 16-17, 2023
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MERVYN HAGGER SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
There is absolutely nothing odd or suspicious or "far out" about the KLIF Radio 11/22/63 broadcasts. Nothing.
When the topic of "What Radio Station Was Johnny Brewer Listening To On Nov. 22?" came up in 2019, I did a lot of work tracking some of the radio broadcasts I have in my collection. And at one point during that discussion [archived here], I provided this info....
"But it depends on which "shooting" you're referring to. If you mean the Tippit shooting, then I think you're right---there was no radio report regarding the shooter's description put out within 15 minutes (or so) of the Tippit murder. But there was most definitely a "description" of President Kennedy's assassin broadcast on the radio, and that description was aired on KLIF Radio (the station that Tony Krome just said Brewer was listening to) as early as 12:54 PM (Dallas time), which would corroborate what Brewer said to Eddie Barker in his CBS-TV interview in 1964 when Brewer said this:
"Right after the President was shot, they broadcast a description on the radio of this man..."
If, in fact, Brewer was listening to KLIF Radio that day, the description he would have heard at 12:54 PM would have initially come from a female telephone operator at the Dallas Police Department, who quickly provided the description of the alleged Presidential assassin for a KLIF reporter who was recording the phone call for later broadcast. The description she provided was: "White male, 30 [years old], 5-10, 165, 30-caliber rifle, and I believe it was at Elm and Houston where it came from; now I don't know definitely and I don't like to say." [The audio can be heard HERE.]" -- DVP; April 19, 2019
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In reviewing my KLIF Radio files again just now [on August 17, 2023], there was a partial description of the assassin provided by KLIF even earlier than the 12:54 broadcast linked above.
That earlier description was reported by KLIF's Joe Long at 12:46 PM (per the timestamps provided throughout the KLIF coverage), which would have been just two minutes after the APB bulletin had been put out on the DPD radio system at 12:44 PM. Which almost certainly means that Joe Long and KLIF were monitoring the Dallas Police Department calls on a police radio of their own just after the assassination occurred.
Listen to the 12:46 PM description of the suspected assassin here.
I suppose the very early 12:46 PM description of the suspect aired by KLIF is the thing that makes Mervyn Hagger think something is fishy about the KLIF Radio assassination coverage. But Mervyn's suspicions go up in smoke if the KLIF reporters were, in fact, monitoring the DPD radio frequency on a police scanner on Nov. 22nd, which almost certainly had to be what happened that day.
MERVYN HAGGER SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You can tell by listening to just a little of KLIF Radio's assassination coverage that KLIF is a very efficient news-gathering organization. Joe Long's coverage of the day's tragic events on 11/22/63 was second-to-none in quality, competence, and professionalism, in my opinion.
And it should also be noted that the KLIF Radio reporters didn't just "rip and read" the news coming in from the wire services. They were actively seeking out as much news as they could get from the available sources, such as calling up the Dallas Police Department (twice) prior to 12:54 PM to try and pry some information out of their telephone operator. Plus, KLIF talked to various people at the Trade Mart and at Parkland Hospital as the events unfolded as well.
So the KLIF staff wasn't just sitting around on their rear ends waiting for the bulletins to come to them. They were going out and getting a lot of the early news that day for themselves.
And part of that news-gathering process, quite obviously, included monitoring the DPD radio calls within minutes of the shots being fired at the President. In fact, as I was re-listening to my KLIF files last night, at one point I heard what certainly sounds like chatter from a police radio/scanner in the background as KLIF reporter Joe Long was on the air live [go to 1:44:26 in this video].
Another solid indication that shows the likelihood that the KLIF reporters were, indeed, monitoring the DPD radio system comes at the 1:38:15 mark in the KLIF video I just linked above. At that point in the broadcast, you can hear Joe Long say this:
"There was that sudden call, 'All units report Code 3 in the downtown area to Elm & Houston'."
The above words are almost exactly the words that were uttered by the Dallas police dispatcher over the DPD radio at 12:41 PM. See the transcript of the DPD Radio Tapes here.
So when somebody (such as, say, a Mr. Mervyn Hagger) suggests that there was no possible way for the KLIF reporters to have legitimately acquired the information they gathered about the description of the Presidential assassin as quickly as they gathered it, then I think the best and most appropriate response to counter such an allegation is this one:
Bullshit!!
David Von Pein
August 17-18, 2023
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MERVYN HAGGER SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
That 1962 song ("Point Of No Return" by Gene McDaniels, which first cracked the Top 40 on September 1, 1962, when it climbed to #36 on the Billboard "Hot 100" chart) just happened to be the next record queued up on the turntable for disc jockey Rex Jones to play on radio station KLIF in Dallas in the minutes just after the assassination occurred and prior to the time KLIF cut off all regular programming. There was nothing even remotely sinister or "sick" about it at all.
But once an outer-fringe conspiracy theorist's imagination starts working overtime, there's no limit to the amount of "sinister and sick" things he can dream up out of pure whole cloth. And that's just exactly what Mervyn Hagger's imagination has been doing lately—working overtime—with respect to his absurd allegations against Gordon McLendon and KLIF Radio.
MERVYN HAGGER SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You're right when you say I know virtually nothing about Mr. Gordon McLendon. But I really don't need to know anything at all about him to know with 100% certainty that your theory is just plain bunk concerning KLIF playing certain songs on Nov. 22 because those songs contained some kind of hidden messages or cryptic lyrics concerning the President's death. That's just plain crazy, and all reasonable and sensible people know it's crazy.
Let me guess....
You, Mervyn, also probably believe that the television announcer at the Hotel Texas in Fort Worth on the morning of 11/22/63 had advanced knowledge that President Kennedy was going to be killed later that day when he started telling the viewing audience all about President McKinley's 1901 assassination (at 17:03 in this video).
Do you think that chatter about McKinley's assassination is suspicious or sinister in some way, Mervyn? If not, you'd better put your imagination into overdrive and catch up, because a lot of other conspiracy fantasists are already aboard that sinking ship, including the CTers who created this awful documentary.
The fact that you, Mervyn, seem to actually believe that KLIF Radio in Dallas was part of some kind of "psyops" operation on 11/22/63---complete with Tommy Roe and Gene McDaniels playing unwitting parts in your fantasy via their Top 40 hits---is quite possibly one of the most ridiculous theories I've ever heard any conspiracy fantasist come up with since I first got interested in the JFK murder case in 1981.
Congratulations on the achievement.
David Von Pein
August 19-20, 2023
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JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
The only way you can conclude that Lee Oswald did not purchase (and take possession of) "that handgun" (i.e., Smith & Wesson Revolver No. V510210) is to totally ignore all the evidence that tells us he did purchase it --- CLICK HERE.
David Von Pein
August 19, 2023
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DAVID VON PEIN SAID (ON FEBRUARY 13, 2010):
The ARRB was not an "investigative" committee. But, for some reason that I will never understand, Jeremy Gunn (and ARRB Chairman John Tunheim too, I guess) was/were talked into taking testimony from various medical witnesses, even though the ONLY thing the ARRB was responsible for was overseeing the release to the public of the various records and documents concerning JFK's assassination. Nothing more.
But thanks to a mega-kook named Douglas P. Horne, who joined the ARRB staff a year or two after it was originally created, apparently the ARRB's mandate and scope changed significantly. And I can't help but ask (and wonder) -- Why?
BEN HOLMES SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
"Congress did not, however, direct the Review Board to draw conclusions about the assassination, but to release assassination records so that the public could draw its own conclusions. Thus, this Final Report does not offer conclusions about what the assassination records released did or did not prove. Rather, it identifies records that the Board released and describes the processes and standards that the Board used to release them." -- ARRB Final Report; Page xxi
Also see these webpages.
JOHN CORBETT SAID:
Furthermore, Doug Horne has absolutely no medical credentials. He is a military man and was brought onboard to oversee the release of the military records. Since the autopsy was conducted by the military, those records were under his jurisdiction. His recycling of the David Lifton body snatching theory was nothing more than the musings of an incompetent layman. The corpse altering theory was dumb when Lifton proposed it and even dumber when Horne added his own embellishments.
BEN HOLMES SAID:
You [DVP] asserted that there was something strange about their [the ARRB] taking of testimony. You're a liar.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
The "taking of testimony" of the various medical witnesses was most certainly not needed at all in order for the ARRB to complete its mission/mandate of releasing all of the various previously unreleased records and documents to the American public.
Also see the excerpt below from Vincent Bugliosi's book "Reclaiming History", in which Vince talks about how "certain overzealous members of the ARRB staff took it upon themselves to go beyond the ARRB's limited mandate to release assassination-related documents, and decided to investigate what they perceived to be certain acts of conspiracy in the assassination".
David Von Pein
August 24, 2023
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AN ANONYMOUS CONSPIRACY THEORIST CALLING HIMSELF “SKY THRONE” SAID:
The irony is that on her final ["What's My Line?"] show, Dorothy [Kilgallen] thought that the celebrity guest was Marilyn Monroe, even though Monroe had died 3 years before. Was she really that sloshed?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Nonsense. Dorothy thought nothing of the kind. The name "Norma" can apply to people other than just Marilyn Monroe.
http://dvp-potpourri.blogspot.com/What's My Line? (Nov. 7, 1965)
"SKY THRONE" SAID:
Dorothy knew Marilyn, and certainly knew that she was not the mystery celebrity on her final show...and yet she asked [Joey] Heatherton if her "real name" was Norma. DVP will not find another Norma that makes sense. He will just run away. So why would Dorothy on her last show cryptically point to Marilyn Monroe?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Good! More conspiracies!
"SKY THRONE" SAID:
Name another celebrity at the time whose real name had been Norma! .... Who are all of those other "Norma's" you had in mind?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
No idea. But there obviously was at least one "Norma" that Dorothy had in mind. Because she certainly didn't just forget that MM was dead.
"SKY THRONE" SAID:
DVP retreats to the circular reasoning of his Nutter Retard hamster wheel. He finds it comforting!
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
It's called "logical thinking" and "reasonable inference" and "discounting things that are silly and ridiculous".
You, Mr. "Throne", being a conspiracy fantasist, wouldn't know what those things are all about, however.
David Von Pein
August 26, 2023
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JONATHAN COHEN SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Indeed, Jonathan. Plus there's the continual embarrassment that about 90% (perhaps even more) of the conspiracy theorists here at The Education Forum should be experiencing on a daily basis when they continue to embrace such absurd and wholly unprovable theories like these for years on end:
1. The second-floor Baker/Truly/Oswald encounter never even happened at all.
2. Lee Oswald didn't carry any large-ish paper bag at all into the Book Depository on 11/22/63.
3. Lee Oswald never ordered any rifle at all from Klein's Sporting Goods and never once even touched Carcano Rifle No. C2766.
4. Lee Oswald never even went to the Cuban and Russian embassies in Mexico City at all in September of 1963.
5. Ruth Paine was up to her neck in conspiracy and patsy-planting in the weeks prior to Nov. 22nd.
6. Captain Fritz and other DPD officers were part of a pre-arranged plot on 11/24/63 which allowed Jack Ruby to have easy access to the City Hall basement in order to kill Lee Oswald.
....And so many more embarrassing theories that have been featured over and over again on this forum's pages.
BENJAMIN COLE SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I provide my "tumbling bullet" thoughts here.
BENJAMIN COLE SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
There are many different reasons why the Single-Bullet Theory should be accepted as being true (all discussed here).
The "tumbling bullet" isn't the be-all/end-all deciding factor for the SBT's validity. Because even if the bullet—Commission Exhibit No. 399—wasn't tumbling at all as it entered the upper back of Governor Connally in Dealey Plaza, the SBT is still most certainly the most reasonable solution.
In fact, with or without any "tumbling", the SBT is the only truly reasonable and sensible solution that explains the initial wounding of JFK and all of Connally's wounds.
Here are a few SBT-related points I've made in the past that deserve a replay every now and then:
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"Let me ask the following question one more time (I've made this inquiry in the past as well, without receiving any satisfactory answer from any anti-SBT conspiracy theorist):
If the animation project authored by Dale K. Myers is dead wrong in its depiction of the Single-Bullet Theory as being a one-bullet scenario that is not only POSSIBLE, but very, very likely a rock-solid FACT in all respects, then I want to know HOW in this wide world of ours it would have been even remotely possible for Dale Myers to have stuck THAT CLOSE TO THE REAL EVIDENCE in the case and to have produced a BOGUS animation (as CTers believe he has done) that comes so incredibly close to what a true and NON-BOGUS animation would have looked like?
To clarify what I mean by that --- The depiction of the victims (JFK and Connally) in Myers' animation (along with the general configuration of the limo and of Dealey Plaza and of the TSBD and of Elm Street, etc.) are certainly NOT so far "out of whack" that any CTer can look at it and say this:
"Myers is full of shit here! He doesn't have this model even CLOSE to being accurate in any way!"
So, even if the anti-SBT crowd wants to nitpick about the size of John Connally's head in Dale's 3D model, or about the height of the limo's crossbar seen in the animation.....those same CTers haven't a leg to stand on when it comes to the big-ticket question that no conspiracist has EVER been able to reconcile--and that question is:
If the SBT is only a wet dream of "Warren Commission shills" (et al), then how in the world did multiple gunmen firing multiple bullets (usually at least THREE missiles, per CTer accounts) into the bodies of two victims manage to MIMIC A PERFECT (or damn near perfect-looking) SINGLE-BULLET EVENT with those multiple bullets?
I'm still waiting for a single SBT-hating conspiracy theorist to logically and believably answer the above question.
In short, the Single-Bullet Theory makes a whole bunch of (common) sense. Especially when placed up against ANY alternate scenario that might be used to try and knock it down."
-- DVP; April 18, 2008
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"And isn't it amazing that there just happened to be another bullet hole on the opposite side of JFK's body to meet the "SBT" needs of Mr. Specter, et al?
Has any conspiracy theorist in history ever made this basic observation?....
Boy, those assassins were sure a bunch of lucky sons of bitches when the guy who shot JFK in the throat from the front managed to hit Kennedy in exactly the right spot on his body so that (later on) the official investigators could utilize that entry wound in the throat as the point of exit for the SBT bullet. And then the multiple assassins got even luckier when the upper-back bullet and the bullet that entered the throat both decided not to exit the body and then both of those bullets vanished into puffs of smoke before either of those bullets (which obviously were still inside JFK's body when he was inside Trauma Room No. 1 at Parkland Hospital) could be seen by any non-conspirator.
Can anyone truly believe that such incredible good fortune could possibly have existed amongst the (alleged) multiple shooters who were (allegedly) firing bullets at President Kennedy on 11/22/63?
(And yet CTers have the gall to tell me that I am the one who believes in "Magic Bullets". Oy vey!)"
-- DVP; July 1, 2018
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"[Many conspiracy theorists] require absolute perfect to-the-millimeter perfection in a Single-Bullet Theory re-creation before [they'll] even begin to consider it valid. But, realistically, it's just not reasonable to expect an event like this to be able to be re-created right down to the last inch.
In my opinion, however, CE903 comes very close to SBT perfection (even though I realize that the 17.72-degree angle isn't exactly right, since it's an angle for the equivalent of Z217.5 and not what I believe is the true SBT Z-Film frame of Z224).
So, if you want to say I "want it both ways", okay. But the Z217.5 angle seen in CE903 is so incredibly close to being "perfect", why would I quibble with it and raise hell with Mr. Specter & Company (especially since I fully realize that complete and total "perfection" is not a reasonable expectation)?"
-- DVP; July 3, 2018
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"Another line of reasoning that could be utilized by LNers is this one:
After Bullet CE399 exited JFK's throat, it DID NOT tumble into John Connally's back at all, and the reason for the elongated (15 mm.) size of Connally's back wound was due merely to a tangential strike, which is exactly the same explanation given by the Warren Commission on page 86 of its Final Report to explain the 15-millimeter size of the entrance wound in Kennedy's head.
Hence, there was also a very small wound of exit in Kennedy's throat--which, given the "tangential strike" explanation for Connally's back wound, would "solve" another supposed problem that conspiracists often bring up -- i.e., Why did the bullet suddenly start to tumble into Connally's back even though it left a nice round wound in Kennedy's throat, which is more indicative of a NON-tumbling bullet that it is a tumbling missile?
The above scenario is, however, in conflict with the majority of Dr. Lattimer's tests, which are tests that resulted in 5 out of 6 bullets that tumbled into the Connally target after having gone through a simulated Kennedy neck.
But, anyway, it's some food for "Tumbling vs. Tangential" thought, I think."
-- DVP; October 22, 2012
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MERVYN HAGGER SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
The "Magic Bullet" topic is getting "rehashed" in this thread too because it's so much fun seeing the CTers at The Education Forum go into their Denial Mode whenever the subject of the SBT comes up.
How the conspiracists of this planet manage to sidestep the logic of the SBT is beyond my capacity to understand. But nearly 100% of them have been doing it now for pert-near sixty years. Very strange indeed.
MERVYN HAGGER SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Funny you should ask about that. It's an interesting story indeed.....
As a young lad collecting Topps Baseball Cards in eastern Indiana in the year 1972, I was approached one day by a man who introduced himself as a Mr. Arlen Specter. I didn't know at that time who he was, but he asked me to sit down with him in front of the Kresge's store in Richmond's Gateway Shopping Center and he then proceeded to tell me a fascinating story. It was all about this "theory" he had concerning some kind of a "Bullet" that supposedly went through two different gunshot victims during an attempted murder somewhere in the state of....uh....Texas, I think it was.
Mr. Specter then told me to "spread the word" far and wide about this "SBT" nonsense. He said that something he called "The Internet" was going to be in everybody's home in about 20 or 25 more years, and when I grew up, he wanted me (of all people) to start up all kinds of "blogs" (whatever the hell those are) (????). And he wanted these "blog" things to all focus attention on JFK and this "SBT" thing he kept yammering about.
I didn't know what to think. Frankly, this Specter guy sounded like a nut. But he brainwashed me thoroughly (of course), so what could I do? I had no choice but to do as he said. And so, 35 years later, in August of 2007, I started my career as an Official JFK Assassination Disinformation Agent.*
* I had also spent the previous four years [2003-2007] as an ADA (Apprentice Disinfo Agent), mainly at Debra Conway's JFK Lancer forum.
It's not a very fun job (~sigh~), but I can't complain about the salary. (Plus the regular checks from the Arlen Specter Disinfo Estate keep coming in every month too. So that's another perk.)
David Von Pein
August 27-28, 2023
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CHARLES COLLINS SAID:
Morphing Memories....
Buell Frazier is but one example [of] someone perhaps having a morphing memory. We haven’t seen any evidence of his morphing until recent years. But human memories can morph over time. Maybe a discussion of this is in order.
I am going to give an example based on a real event from about 50 years ago. While still barely teenagers but the drinking age lowered to 18 for a short while, some friends and I went to town to see an up and coming band (but mainly to drink beer). Here’s a photo of that band that was taken some 6 months before we saw them.
If you didn’t recognize them, that is Lynyrd Skynyrd before they became well known. Here is my memory of that night:
We got there early and snagged a table right in front of the stage, maybe 10 feet from the band. The pitchers of beer flowed all evening. Sometime later, one of our group said something like “Hey, there’s someone who looks like Mick Jagger.” I thought to myself “no way.” I don’t remember seeing Mick Jagger or anyone that looked like him. I do remember a discussion as we were returning to the car about how good Lynyrd Skynyrd was.
Now, here is the memory of one of my friends. He is currently a very healthy and fit individual and happily married and enjoying life. He “remembers” that Mick Jagger and The Rolling Stones joined Lynyrd Skynyrd on the stage and performed together with them.
Now, I will confirm that we were all young and foolish and had had too much to drink. I can only guess that my friend had repeated the story over the years and it morphed (like a fish story) into what he actually believes at this point in time 50 years later.
I got away from the heavy drinking a few years after this episode. He continued to drink heavily until maybe 15 years ago. I didn’t see him for all those years but our paths crossed about 8 years ago. And he firmly believes he saw Mick Jagger and The Rolling Stones that night 50 years ago.
I have researched enough to say that there is no evidence that Mick Jagger and The Rolling Stones were there that night. But I doubt that anyone could ever convince my friend that he didn’t see them.
Anyway, this might be a good thread to discuss some of the witnesses to the JFK assassination whose memories appear to have morphed over the years. I already mentioned Buell Frazier, who else would anyone like to discuss?
MICHAEL CAPASSE SAID:
I'm not aware of Buell's story morphing. He has been consistent for 60 years. How has it morphed?
CHARLES COLLINS SAID:
Here is a snip from Buell Frazier’s 11/22/63 affidavit:
"I did not see Lee anymore after about 11:00 AM today, and at that time, we were both working, and we were on the first floor."
These days he claims that he saw LHO walking up Houston Street beside the TSBD soon after the assassination.
JOHN IACOLETTI SAID:
Charles Givens’ story morphed between November 22 and his WC testimony.
Warren Reynolds’ story morphed after he was shot in the head.
Nick McDonald’s story morphed every time he re-told it.
CHARLES COLLINS SAID:
Morphing memories (as I am defining them) are ones that change character entirely. I am not interested in memories in which small details might be misremembered, because that is normal for us humans.
For an example of a morphing memory, as I define it, if Buell Frazier had really seen LHO walking up Houston Street after the assassination, I don’t think that there is any way he could have forgotten that when he swore that he didn’t see LHO after 11:00 am when he made his affidavit on 11/22/63.
Also, the WC testimonies included questions by the investigators which were meant to bring out additional details that might not have been included in earlier statements. So, that type of thing isn’t really a morphed memory, as I am defining it.
MICHAEL CAPASSE SAID:
Certainly Buell could have forgotten he had seen Lee for a brief moment in his one-time answer on an affidavit. I was referring to his consistency regarding the bag he saw. I'm not aware of that story changing in 60 years. .... Are we talking about stories that morph or minor details changed that don't really matter?
CHARLES COLLINS SAID:
Going from didn’t see him after 11:00 am to saw him walking up the street after the assassination is a major morph. .... Buell Frazier didn’t say a word about supposedly seeing LHO on Houston Street after the assassination until he wrote a book fifty something years later and was trying to sell it. Yes, he has been consistent regarding the size of the bag. But that is not the same as being correct.
JOHN IACOLETTI SAID:
That’s false. His [Buell Frazier's] first public telling of the story of seeing Oswald on Houston street (that I’m aware of) was in an interview with Gary Mack in 2002. “Steering Truth” [Frazier's book] was published in 2021.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
As John has mentioned above, Buell didn't wait quite 50+ years to start telling his "I saw LHO on Houston St." story. AFAIK, it was this interview with Gary Mack in 2002 in which that particular addition to Buell's story first surfaced.
Buell then, in later interviews (and in his book), started "adding" more things to his story (see this link).
CHARLES COLLINS SAID:
Thanks guys, I stand corrected. So, it was only about 39 years after the assassination that Buell Frazier announced his morphed memory.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Correct. That is, unless Buell did some other lengthy interviews prior to the one in 2002. But I know of none. He did some very brief on-camera appearances for various JFK anniversary documentaries prior to '02, but no long interviews (that I know of).
Let me also add....
During his Warren Commission testimony in March of 1964, some four months after he wrote his 11/22/63 affidavit, Buell Frazier also said just what he had said in that Nov. 22 affidavit---that he had not seen Lee Oswald at all after the late morning hours on 11/22:
JOSEPH BALL -- When was the last time you can remember you saw Lee?
BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER -- You mean on the 22nd?
MR. BALL -- On the 22nd, that day.
MR. FRAZIER -- Somewhere between--it was after 10 and somewhere before noon, because I remember I was walking down to the first floor that day, that was the only time I went up on the elevator was, like I say, for a few minutes and, I put that box of books up and put it down, and I was on the first floor putting up books all day and I seen him back and forth and he would be walking and getting books and put on the order.
MR. BALL -- That was the last time you saw him all day?
MR. FRAZIER -- Right.
MR. BALL -- You didn't talk to him again?
MR. FRAZIER -- No, sir; I didn't.
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David Von Pein
August 28, 2023
