OFF-TOPIC....
THE DEATH OF GEORGE FLOYD....
VIA WIKIPEDIA:
On May 25, 2020, George Floyd, a 46-year-old black man suspected of passing a counterfeit $20 bill, died in Minneapolis, Minnesota, after Derek Chauvin, a white police officer, pressed his knee to Floyd's neck for almost nine minutes while Floyd was handcuffed face down in the street.
JOHN CORBETT SAID:
Due to the fact that the county coroner ruled that George Floyd's death was not due directly to strangulation but by his body's reaction due to hypertension and coronary disease, prosecuting Derek Chauvin for murder will be problematic. Floyd's family is not satisfied with that finding and their attorney indicated HSCA head pathologist Dr. Michael Baden is being called in to render a second opinion.
[...]
Cause of death is going to be critical in the prosecution of this case because if the state can't prove Chauvin either intended to kill Floyd or acted in a reckless manner with no regard for Floyd's well being, manslaughter is likely the most serious offense they could convict Chauvin of.
BUD SAID:
I suspect...the guy will be found to have died from a heart attack.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
But that makes no sense, Bud. If it was
truly a heart attack, then that fact would most certainly have been brought out in the initial autopsy report. (Especially if you buy the theory that has the coroner being nothing but a lapdog for the Minneapolis Police.) But nothing about a "heart attack" was brought out.
Or do you think the Minneapolis medical examiner was such a total boob/incompetent that he couldn't recognize such a simple thing like a heart attack when he sees it? That scenario seems highly unlikely.
BUD SAID:
The assumption every news agency in the country ran with was that there was a direct connection between the officer's knee being on his neck and his death, and it just wasn't true.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
So a man dies while under the heavy pressure of a policeman's knee
and while the victim repeatedly cries "I can't breathe". And yet I'm supposed to believe that the "Knee On The Neck" somehow had
nothing at all to do with the man's death?
Yeah, right.
BUD SAID:
The cop has little pressure on Floyd's neck.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I disagree. I've seen the full 9-minute Frazier video [
Click Here to view it], and there are a couple of times when the officer appears (to me) to be "digging in" his knee deeper and deeper into Floyd's neck. Very disturbing images indeed.
EDIT/NOTE REGARDING THE FRAZIER VIDEO --- When watching the full nine-minute video again, I noticed something that I had thought was visible in the video which actually isn't true at all --- and that is: Police Officer/Murderer Derek Chauvin does
not have his left hand in his pocket at any time during the time he is kneeling on the neck of George Floyd. It sure does look like Chauvin has his hand in his left pocket almost the whole time, but we can see in the full-length video that he's wearing black gloves, which perfectly match his pants, giving the appearance of his hand being in his pocket when his left hand is, in reality, just resting on his left leg.
But there are several aspects of this case that nobody in the media seems to be talking about at all....things that I would like to know. Such as:
...Why did the police have George Floyd down on the ground like that in the first place? What
exactly did Floyd do to make the cops put him flat on the ground next to the police car?
*
...Why did Floyd fall to the ground (apparently on his own) when he was first being placed in the police vehicle (on the LEFT-rear side of the car--which is not the side of the car where he was pinned and died)? What caused that fall? A medical condition? Did Floyd trip? Did the cops strike him in some manner to cause him to lose his balance? What exactly caused it? Nobody has yet said.
...Additional video shows Floyd being put INTO the police car at the LEFT-REAR of the car (after he had fallen and was picked back up). So WHY was there any need to take Floyd back
OUT of the car via the right-rear car door (where he was then placed prone on the ground)? Was Floyd, who was in handcuffs this whole time, doing something in the car that led the cops to then take him back out of the vehicle? Was George kicking the doors? What was it? Nobody seems to know.
*
...Was Floyd drunk? And if so, just how drunk was he? Or, was he under the influence of some other type of drug?
Anyway, there's a lot of unanswered questions in this case.
But regardless of what the answers are to those above questions, I can't see any way to justify the actions of Minneapolis Police Officer Derek Chauvin, who displayed a total disregard for the life and well-being of Mr. George Floyd on Monday, May 25, 2020.
* AUGUST 2020 EDIT: This 30-minute police bodycam video (also embedded below), some of which was leaked to the public on 8/3/2020, helps to answer a couple of my questions above. But that video, in my opinion, still does not fully explain
why the officers felt the need to pin a handcuffed man to the ground for eight minutes, instead of simply keeping Mr. Floyd upright and on his feet for that same amount of time as they waited for an ambulance to arrive on the scene. ~shrug~
AN ANONYMOUS PERSON SAID:
Floyd must have been able to breathe when he said, "I can't breathe."
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Oh for Pete sake. Get real. Please don't tell me that some people are actually going to quibble about the exact words that George Floyd used in his dying minutes as he was being gagged by the knee of Murderer Chauvin on 5/25/20. Don't give me that lame-ass excuse. That's pathetic.
When somebody is saying "I can't breathe", they actually (technically) mean (of course): "I'm having a hard time breathing right now."
But should we be silly enough to call Mr. Floyd a liar because he used the words "I can't breathe" instead of using the more accurate words "I'm having trouble breathing right now due to the fact this son-of-a-bitch policeman from Minnesota has jammed his left knee on my neck"?
THE ANONYMOUS PERSON SAID:
If he could talk then he had the capacity to breathe.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Then I guess you must think Dr. Michael Baden is a liar then, huh?
CNN Headline:
Autopsy [done by Dr. Baden] finds George Floyd's death was a homicide due to "Asphyxiation from sustained pressure".
"Police have this false impression that if you can talk, you can breathe. That's not true," Baden said.
http://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/george-floyd-independent-autopsy
BUD SAID:
Floyd is dead because of a lifetime of poor health choices, not because of what the cop did.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
How do you know all that about Floyd's "lifetime of poor health choices"? I haven't heard a single word on any news network about Floyd's "poor health choices". Where in the world did you get that info? Is it hard info or just a wild guess?
BUD SAID:
The information is there. He bought cigarettes, and he was under the influence of something. If you abuse your body sometimes it gives out on you.
[...]
How did I know it would be a heart attack before the autopsy was released? I suspect I have a better understanding of the world than you do. You seem invested in The Narrative.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I don't need "The Narrative" here at all. I've got eyes. And I've seen the full 9-minute video showing the murder of Mr. Floyd.
(I hope you're not going to start crying "Fake Video!". That stunt should be reserved for JFK conspiracy theorists.)
BUD SAID:
You *thought* [the video] showed the cop choking Floyd to death. But despite being wrong about this, you are still somehow right.
Things are not always how they look. The video doesn't capture Floyd's heart failing.
BUD ALSO SAID:
The autopsy is out...
http://abcnews.go.com/george-floyd-family-release-autopsy-results
"Decedent experienced a cardiopulmonary arrest..."
Heart attack, like I said.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Well, sure. His heart had to STOP at some point in order for him to become DEAD. (Duh!)
But the thing that so obviously
CAUSED the "cardiopulmonary arrest" was the murderous cop's actions. We see it on the video --- George is both ALIVE and then DEAD while under the knee of the murdering police officer. The math's pretty easy to do here. Why can't you perform it in this case, Bud?
BUD SAID:
And if you fall off a building you are flying.
If this is the kind of arguments you are forced to make, maybe you should reconsider your position.
The fact is that you, and almost everyone else *assumed* that the cop's knee was cutting off oxygen to Floyd, resulting in his death. But even though that was not true, nobody seems to be readjusting their evaluation of the situation, they are stick[ing] to their first impressions despite the facts.
And the thing is if Floyd hadn't committed a crime he would have had no interaction with police. And the thing is if Floyd had taken better care of his health he might have survived this arrest. And the thing is that people like Floyd going around high on drugs doing whatever they like is a bigger societal problem than the actions of this cop.
There are a lot of "things".
"Guy died, cop's fault" is too simplistic for my tastes.
BUD ALSO SAID:
I see problems with the autopsy that might be contestable...
...How did Baden determine exactly when Floyd's heart gave out?
...How does neck compression cause a heart attack?
...How can restraint by police be a cause of death when restraining criminals is their job?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Your last question is a really stupid one. Is it the cops' job to keep suspects restrained for 9 consecutive minutes while the victim, who was not resisting at all during that nine minutes, begs for air?
Your comments in this discussion are embarrassing and ridiculous, Bud.
BUD SAID:
If you are going to use "restraint" as a cause of death you have to be able to explain how cops can arrest people without restraining them. Because people can have heart attacks during an arrest *regardless* of how you arrest them, and there is no reason to believe that Floyd would have survived this attack *regardless* of how they handled it. They aren't paramedics.
DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:
I went a little overboard when I said this to Bud earlier:
"Your comments in this discussion are embarrassing and ridiculous."
I apologize.
JOHN McADAMS SAID:
This must be a first in the history of the Internet.
An apology for a post that was a bit overheated, but not nearly so terrible as routine stuff on social media.
I [as the moderator of
this Usenet newsgroup] passed the "comments" post since it addressed Bud's arguments, but not Bud as a person.
Classy thing to do, Dave.
BUD SAID:
Autopsy mentions "fentanyl intoxication", which is an opioid, and recent methamphetamine use (that's what you want to do when you have a bad heart).
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Sounds like you're looking for an excuse to exonerate a murderer. That's what JFK conspiracy theorists are supposed to do---not intelligent "LNers" from Philadelphia.
BUD SAID:
I love this. *Nothing* this guy does matters, nothing does harm to the Narrative, none of Floyd's actions matter that led up to this, only the cop's actions can be looked at. The same as the
Arbery case, whether he is shown to be up to no good, shown to have a history of being up to no good in that neighborhood, shown to attack Travis McMichael, nothing does harm to The Narrative of
"innocent jogger slain by vigilantes".
I'd say you are displaying the traits of a conspiracy theorist when you stick to The Narrative despite the facts, or want to look narrowly at only some facts.
[...]
Whatever you do, don't look at George Floyd, and see if he did anything that might have contributed to his death. He is likely very drunk and trying to pass phony money, probably driving around three times the legal limit, you know what a real tragedy would be. If he hit some kid driving drunk.
Only some lives matters, the ones the left decides are important.
Fuck George Floyd, idiots don't get to decide what lives matter to me. This "gentile giant" who robbed a woman at gunpoint for drug money.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Pot is colliding head-on with Kettle here.
YOU, Bud, are the one ignoring the "facts". The main fact being this:
BOTH autopsies concluded that Floyd's death was a MURDER ("homicide").
And yet you still want to claim otherwise, don't you? Why?
Prior to writing your post that I'm responding to now, you surely
had to know that
both the Baden autopsy AND the Minneapolis autopsy had utilized that word—
"HOMICIDE"—in their respective autopsy reports/statements on June 1st, 2020....right?
And yet you're still going to insist that the cop(s) were somehow not to blame?? Bizarre stubbornness there, Bud. Do you really think YOU know more than the doctors who performed BOTH autopsies and who concluded that George Floyd was, indeed, murdered?
BUD SAID:
The Medical examiner's report...found "cardiopulmonary arrest" as the cause of death. Heart attack.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Lee Harvey Oswald had a cardiac arrest before he was pronounced dead too. Do you think he died of a heart attack too? And should Jack Ruby now not be viewed as a murderer?
BUD SAID:
Wasn't the cause of death. He may have went into shock also, but that wasn't the cause of death. The cause of death was a gunshot wound to the chest.
BUD ALSO SAID:
Floyd's underlying health issues were likely the fault of Floyd himself, and I expect they were more of a contributing factor to his demise.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
"The autopsy shows that Mr. Floyd had no underlying medical problem that caused or contributed to his death. He was in good health." -- Dr. Michael Baden; June 1, 2020 [via video below]
So somebody's lying with regard to Floyd's health conditions. Either the Minneapolis medical examiner....or Dr. Baden.
Who do you think is the liar, Bud?
THE ANONYMOUS PERSON SAID:
Tell me, Super Dave, do you think Baden is always 100 percent right? What did Baden say about OJ Simpson's murders of Goldman and Nicole Brown Simpson? Baden concluded that there were 2 murderers. Dave, do you think OJ Simpson has an identical twin or did Baden get that one wrong?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Decide for yourself, Mr. Anonymous. This [below] is some of my favorite testimony from the O.J. trial. I like listening to Baden speak (even though all JFK CTers hate his guts with a passion, of course)....
BUD SAID (INCREDIBLY):
If they just cuff him and he has a heart attack, that would still be a homicide.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
WTF? Why are you spouting such stupid things?
BUD SAID:
I'm not, you just have a flawed understanding of what constitutes "homicide". There is no assumption of wrongdoing, even the medical report clarified it...
But the
report released later Monday by the Hennepin County Medical Examiner's office said Floyd died of "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint and neck compression." The manner of death was ruled homicide, but the office noted that "is not a legal determination of culpability or intent."
"...not a legal determination of culpability or intent."
I also found this...
"A homicide requires only a volitional act by another person that results in death, and thus a homicide may result from accidental, reckless, or negligent acts even if there is no intent to cause harm."
So like I said, if cop handcuffs a suspect and he goes into cardiac arrest, this would still be found to be a homicide.
Also if I came up to you and patted you on the back, and you went into cardiac arrest, this would also be a homicide.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Wow! That's just nuts. And I doubt very much that you are 100% accurate in your "homicide" assessments.
JOHN McADAMS SAID:
I don't agree with Coulter about Floyd, but it is worth remembering that the media flatly lied about Rodney King:
http://vdare.com/articles/ann-coulter-we-don-t-believe-the-msm-on-george-floyd-because-we-know-they-lied-about-rodney-king
ANN COULTER SAID:
Doesn’t anyone else wonder how Floyd ended up on the ground? Where are those videos?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yes, I sure do wonder that. And I was asking that very same question three days ago:
--- quote on: ---
"But there are several aspects of this case that nobody in the media seems to be talking about at all....things that I would like to know. Such as:
...Why did the police have George Floyd down on the ground like that in the first place? What *exactly* did Floyd do to make the cops put him flat on the ground next to the police car?
...Why did Floyd fall to the ground (apparently on his own) when he was first being placed in the police vehicle (on the LEFT-rear side of the car--which is not the side of the car where he was pinned and died)? What caused that fall? A medical condition? Did Floyd trip? Did the cops strike him in some manner to cause him to lose his balance? What exactly caused it? Nobody has yet said.
...Additional video shows Floyd being put INTO the police car at the LEFT-REAR of the car (after he had fallen and was picked back up). So WHY was there any need to take Floyd back OUT of the car via the right-rear car door (where he was then placed prone on the ground)? Was Floyd, who was in handcuffs this whole time, doing something in the car that led the cops to then take him back out of the vehicle? Was George kicking the doors? What was it? Nobody seems to know.
...Was Floyd drunk? And if so, just how drunk was he? Or, was he under the influence of some other type of drug?
Anyway, there's a lot of unanswered questions in this case." -- DVP; May 31, 2020
BUD SAID:
Looks like George Floyd has quite the rap sheet.
Why are the martyrs of the left such scumbags? Listen kiddies, these are the heroes we want you to emulate, Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King, Michael Brown, Floyd the Landlord.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Who said anyone wanted anybody to "emulate" George Floyd? I've yet to hear anyone make such a claim.
BUD SAID:
David, I'm so exasperated with the nonsense I've been seeing lately I think I'm going to be mocking much more than I have been previously, annoying the people who annoy me seems a worthwhile activity.
I am well past the point where I care about George Floyd. They could kill a guy like this (white or black) every minute of every day and I couldn't care less. The end result would be the world would be a better place.
Listen, the day the cops kill some kid going to class with a backpack full of books trying to better themselves, you have my full support. If you are going to keep offering up thugs and criminals, I have no patience or sympathy, only scorn and derision.
Did you see [this]?...
"The 46-year-old [George Floyd] had left behind his past in Houston after being released from prison stemming from a 2007 robbery. He plead guilty to entering a woman’s home, pointing a gun at her stomach and searching the home for drugs and money, according to court records. Floyd was sentenced to 10 months in jail for having less than one gram of cocaine in a December 2005 arrest. He had previously been sentenced to eight months for the same offense, stemming from an October 2002 arrest. Floyd was arrested in 2002 for criminal trespassing and served 30 days in jail. He had another stint for a theft in August 1998."
[End Quote.]
If you were to add up all the cost of processing, arresting, incarcerating, etc, just everything this one person cost society, it would probably amount to a million dollars. And there are millions of George Floyds out there, costing taxpayers billions, just making the world a horrible place. And now you are going to make it so the people who protect us from people like this are so hamstrung because of the actions of a few individuals that they are incapable of doing anything.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
So what you just said, in no uncertain terms, is:
George Floyd
DESERVED TO BE KILLED by the Minneapolis, Minnesota, Police Department on May 25th, 2020.
Yikes!
JOHN McADAMS SAID:
I think it's much more "I don't really mind that he was killed."
I don't think it was a big loss to humanity, but being a law and order person, I think the law must prevail.
Which I think is probably a conviction for "depraved indifference" homicide.
Of course, being a law and order person, I think rioters and looters should be punished according to the law.
I assume you agree?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Indeed I do.
BUD SAID:
My brother and sister-in-law called to see how I was making out with all the nonsense going on in Philly. My sister-in-law is a liberal who I have gotten into it with many times on a variety of issues. I remember way back with Rodney King her asking me why they were beating him when he was already handcuffed. I pointed out to her he wasn't handcuffed, but of course the fact that she was totally wrong on a major aspect didn't matter to her anyway, impacted her ideas not one bit. So I kind of laid back and waited for the topic of the video to come up (as I knew it would), and I told her what I've been telling people here, the heart attack that killed Floyd started before Chauvin's knee was on Floyd's neck. She got *very* upset, sputtering mad. And it occurred to me that people get very upset if you challenge their preconceived notions. I've noticed this before, of course, especially in regards to the [JFK] assassination, but also in my discussions on the Arbery case. People have a notion about what happened, and the more you challenge them the tighter their grasp on that notion.
Before the Floyd autopsy came out, probably about 99% of the people thought what they saw was Chauvin's knee cutting off oxygen so that Floyd suffocated. I said that the autopsy would likely show that he dies from a heart attack. Even with the autopsy released, probably 90% of the people still believe that it was Chauvin's knee depriving Floyd of oxygen that killed him.
Now, I want to revisit some exchanges I had with DVP. He said...
"DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
"The autopsy shows that Mr. Floyd had no underlying medical problem that caused or contributed to his death. He was in good health." -- Dr. Michael Baden; June 1, 2020
So somebody's lying with regard to Floyd's health conditions. Either the Minneapolis medical examiner....or Dr. Baden.
Who do you think is the liar, Bud?"
To which I replied...
"What I suppose what I would do if I was this cop's defense lawyer is subpoena all of Floyd's medical records. And that will have a history of his blood pressure and any signs of hypertension, and if he was ever on blood pressure medicine. I think I have an idea what they are going to find."
And of course Floyd's medical records did indeed show a history of hypertension and heart disease. So my question is twofold, why am I right so much, yet my ideas are wrong? And why are the people I discuss these issues with wrong so much, yet it doesn't seem to impact their overall ideas?
JOHN CORBETT SAID:
Your entire argument is premised on your assumption that Floyd was having a heart attack before Chauvin knelt on his throat. If your assumption is correct, it does not exonerate Chauvin. It makes what he did even worse.
[...]
Common sense alone should tell you if somebody is telling you they can't breathe, you take them at their word and take your damn knee off their throat. To do otherwise displays a wanton disregard for that person's health and safety. To keep the knee on his throat even after you have been told he has no pulse is an atrocity.
JOHN CORBETT ALSO SAID:
It is clear from
the photo that Chauvin has considerable weight on Floyd's neck. He is not supporting any of his weight with his left hand and from the angle of his shoulders, it certainly does not appear his right hand is supporting any weight either. That means all of his weight is distributed between his two knees and the way his left foot is turned indicates he is putting more of his weight on his left knee. Even if Minneapolis police training authorizes such a restraint, it is unconscionable to resort to it on a suspect who is handcuffed and telling you he can't breathe. There is no excuse for Chauvin's actions.
BUD SAID:
Seems my premise that people stick to their preconceived notions no matter what is holding up. You [John Corbett] didn't give any thought to the fact that Floyd was saying he couldn't breathe before Chauvin had his knee on Floyd's throat, and when that important detail is brought to your attention it has no impact on your perception of the event.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
The impact it has on John's perception of the event is exactly the same as mine---it makes Chauvin look much much WORSE. If he KNEW that the man he had pinned underneath him was possibly having a heart attack (or was experiencing ANY kind of a medical emergency), then that is all the more reason to NOT do what Chauvin did to George Floyd. (And does the recommended treatment for a "panic attack" really require the patient to be pinned down with his face scraping the pavement? Sounds odd to me.)
And we know that Chauvin WAS definitely aware of Floyd having SOME type of medical problem. And that's because the officers called for an ambulance for Floyd. And waiting for the ambulance, in fact, was most likely the ONLY reason they waited for 9 minutes to take Floyd up off the ground. If the ambulance had arrived 3 or 4 minutes earlier, George Floyd would likely still be alive right now.
BUD SAID:
Floyd's death of a heart attack might not have anything to do with any action by the police other than the initial lawful arrest.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
The initial
Hennepin County press release is very confusing when it comes to trying to decipher what they mean in the "Cause of Death" section. It says:
"Cause of death: Cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression."
The word "complicating" there makes no sense. It makes it sound as if the "cardiopulmonary arrest" is actually making it difficult for the cops to subdue Floyd. Ridiculous wording there. They probably meant to say "complicated by" instead of "complicating".
And I'm still unsure if the term "cardiopulmonary arrest" in that report is actually referring to a "heart attack" (per se), or whether it's simply technical coroner-like language which means: The patient's heart stopped.
Also note this part of the same press release:
"How injury occurred: Decedent experienced a cardiopulmonary arrest while being restrained by law enforcement officer(s)."
So that language above certainly gives the impression that the "cardiopulmonary arrest" occurred DURING the period when Floyd was being restrained by the police---not before then. Although I don't know how any medical examiner could determine exactly WHEN such a heart problem STARTED. Which, again, makes me think the term "arrest" in that particular report is merely referring to this definition of the word "arrest":
ARREST -- "To bring to a stop."
David Von Pein
May 31—June 3, 2020
June 2-4, 2020
June 3-4, 2020
June 4, 2020
June 7, 2020
August 4-11, 2020
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