JOHN McADAMS SAID:
Ruth Paine on JFK Conspiracy Theories:
STEVE M. GALBRAITH SAID:
Of all of the absurdities that the conspiracy crowd believes in, the idea that Ruth Paine was some sort of CIA asset hunting down pro-Castro people in Ft. Worth, Texas (!!!) has to be at the top of the long, long list.
Quaker housewife with small children, liberal/progressive politics, Fort Worth, Texas.
Right.
JOHN McADAMS SAID:
I frankly could say I'm not too sympathetic to her, since she was a mush-minded liberal. She thought learning Russian was a step toward world peace. As though Americans not knowing Russian was the cause of the Cold War.
Then, later in the 60s, she seemed to move left, like other fifties liberals.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Why does everything always seem to have to come down to "Right vs. Left" with you, John? It's ridiculous, IMO.
And when did Ruth Paine ever even *HINT* at the idea that "Americans not knowing Russian was the cause of the Cold War"?
I'll answer that last question myself --- Never!
I can't believe you said such a ludicrous thing, John.
JOHN McADAMS SAID:
First of all, Steve brought up "right vs. left," mentioning the liberal politics of the Paines.
Second, "right vs. left" is all over this case. Most conspiracists are leftists who want to blame people the left doesn't like. But right wingers, not surprisingly, blame communists.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/context4.htm
OK, a little logic lesson here:
I said "as though."
Let me make you an analogy. I might say "Conspiracy people think *as though* scores or hundreds of people would lie, fake evidence and remain silent to cover up a conspiracy."
You might reply: "When did conspiracy people say that?"
They didn't, but they reasoned "as though" that was true.
You need to check out Mallon, p. 24.
---quote on---
"Ruth had been studying Russian since 1957--at Berlitz, on photograph records, in summer classes at Penn and Middlebury. Her interest in the language itself was only increased by participation in the Young Friends organization, specifically its East-West Contacts Committee, which sponsored the American travels of three young Soviets--a journalist, a factory worker, and an economics student--in 1958....
She had more direct involvement with the Young Friends' pen-pal program, a good-will exchange set up with the Committee of [Soviet] Youth Organizations...."
---end quote---
In a different era, this might suggest communist sympathies, but in the 50s and early 60s, mainstream liberalism was staunchly anti-communist. JFK being the prime example.
I blamed her for "mush-minded liberalism," but credited her with being sincere and well-intentioned. I don't dislike her. In fact I like those 50s liberals way better than the current politically correct types.
The notion that learning other's languages is a strategy for "peace" is not dead.
http://google.com/#q=learning+each+other's+languages+peace
I seem to have punched one of your buttons. Perhaps you view her as a victim. I do too, but I think she has been mature and self-confident enough that buff vilification hasn't terribly harmed her.
It is true that when she went down to Central America with some leftists who wanted to help install Marxist regimes, they were paranoid about her, thinking she was a CIA spook.
She should have avoided such people.
"CHOSEN TEN" SAID:
["Why does everything always seem to have to come down to "Right vs. Left" with you, John? It's ridiculous, IMO." -- DVP]
Well said Mr. Von Pein. I applaud you for voicing this.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
As far as "CTers vs. LNers" are concerned, I've never been comfortable labelling people "Leftists" or "Right-wingers". Therefore, I have never engaged in such labelling. I don't like placing such definitive labels on people, whether they are LNers or conspiracy believers.
["I said "as though"." -- John McAdams]
OK. Point taken.
It's just that I don't expect a prominent "LNer" to say something like this about Ruth Paine:
"I frankly could say I'm not too sympathetic to her, since she was a mush-minded liberal." -- J. McAdams
That's a pretty harsh comment. And it's a comment that I don't think Ruth Paine deserves.
The Ruth bashers are usually on the "CT" side of the debate (see top link below). So I felt compelled to run to Ruth's defense.
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-87
http://dvp-video-audio-archive.blogspot.com/ruth-paine
JOHN McADAMS SAID:
Like it or not, ideology matters. It's not an accident that leftists blame people leftists don't like, such as people in the CIA, anti-Castro exiles, rich Texas millionaires, etc.
And the Birch Society blamed communists.
["That's a pretty harsh comment. And it's a comment that I don't think Ruth Paine deserves." -- DVP]
Except that I didn't *say* that, I said I "could say" that.
Actually, I'm not as solicitous of her as I might be, but mainly because she seems to have the poise and self-confidence not to be bothered by the crazy buffs.
But you don't have to make those arguments to *me.*
Good luck with the conspiracy crazies. All I said is that she was a bit of a mush-minded liberal.
If you want to argue politics, particularly whether 50s liberals were a bit mush minded, we can do that. That would be fine.
But there is no need to argue with me about whether she was a CIA spook, or an evil person, or dishonest. She was none of those things.
ACE KEFFORD SAID:
David,
I had the same reaction, but you put it better and clearer. The idea that one should not be sympathetic to another person because of where their politics fall on a left-right scale is pretty narrow-minded, especially when you are talking about a person who became part of a situation as a result of an unhappy coincidence of history.
I do of course have exceptions. When a bully like Rush Limbaugh has to admit his illegal drug addiction I don't have much sympathy, with his hypocrisy only adding to it. As I said at the time, "He should be treated with the same open-minded and fair respect and sympathy he extends to those he considers his opponents and enemies." Likewise, Bill "Falafel" O'Reilly.
Personally I generally also have an exception if someone is a hateful or violent extremist. I know those are vague categories which can be expanded or contracted depending on the person applying them, but I don't see how being a mush-minded liberal means scorn for Ruth Paine.
JOHN McADAMS SAID:
But I didn't say I disliked Ruth Paine. I said I *could* say I dislike her as a mush-minded 50s liberal.
ANTHONY MARSH SAID:
Oh, so you think it was ONLY the 50s Liberals who were mush minded. All others are OK.
ACE KEFFORD SAID:
Actually, what you [John McAdams] wrote was "I frankly could say I'm not too sympathetic to her [Ruth Paine], since she was a mush-minded liberal."
Try defending that instead of your incorrect characterization of what you wrote.
GLENN V. SAID:
It seems to me John is not too sympathetic to liberals, period. Mush-minded or not, in- or outside of the JFK assassination.
"BOZ" SAID:
You [DVP] are perfectly comfortable labeling people as "CTers vs. LNers". That's a label.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Not the same thing at all. I was talking about labelling people "Lefties" or "Righties".
David Von Pein
May 19-23, 2017
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
Will someone please tell the Carnival Barker [DVP] that this thread is about John McAdams, his harassment of Cheryl Abbate, his dismissal at Marquette by two administrative hearings, and his recent court case which ruled against him.
I would not want to comment on that either if I was him because it shows the kinds of people he cavorts with.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I haven't closely followed any of the controversy surrounding John McAdams and his Marquette problems. I don't care about it at all.
As for my "cavorting" with Professor McAdams, you Jimmy don't have any idea what you're talking about. You think that just because I agree with McAdams about the JFK case, that must mean I know him very well and am "cavorting" with him on a regular basis. Is that it? Well, think again Jimbo. I've never met the man and I've never "cavorted" with him. And I rarely speak with him directly on the Internet either. I've had a few conversations with him over the years on his aaj forum, but nothing more than that. And, in fact, there was a little bit of friction between us a few months ago [see this discussion]. So if you're under the impression that I'm buddy-buddy with Prof. McAdams, you're way off the beam (as usual).
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
So you, he, and Reitzes never talked about an appearance on Anton Batey's radio show for a debate?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Never.
Here's what I said in 2011....
"I'm guessing that Jim DiEugenio probably thinks that Anton Batey, John McAdams, and myself are long-time friends and buddies. And Jimbo likely also thinks that the three of us get together on a regular basis to "plot" against the conspiracy theorists of the world.
That is the same mindset that DiEugenio possesses with respect to any connection that I have to LNers like McAdams, Dave Reitzes, and Francois Carlier too. And nothing could be further from the truth. But I'll bet that DiEugenio would be more than willing to call me a liar if I told him that my "connection" to Mr. Anton Batey is virtually non-existent.
I cannot speak for Professor McAdams and his contact with Mr. Batey, of course, but as far as myself personally, I have shared a very few e-mails with Mr. Batey (the last of which had nothing to do with the JFK assassination at all), and in 2009 I talked with him a few times at the IMDB JFK forum." -- DVP; Feb. 2011
http://jfk-archives/search=Reitzes+McAdams+Anton+Batey+Debate
David Von Pein
August 17, 2017
