ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
It was at 11:50 PM on 11/22/63 that the FBI lab in Washington received the first bullet fragments from Dealey Plaza that were large enough to be matched up with the bullet that Daryl Tomlinson [sic] found, which they had received earlier that evening.
Of course, they would have been eager to analyze them to determine whether they came all from the same rifle.
Obviously, they did not.
This is from the recorded 1967 [sic] interview of Tomlinson by Ray Marcus. The interview is also documented in the HSCA records:
Tomlinson: On Friday morning about 12:30 to 1 o'clock - uh, excuse me, that's Saturday morning - after the assassination, the FBI woke me up on the phone and told me to keep my mouth shut.
Marcus: About the circumstances of your finding the bullet?
Tomlinson: That is (one short word, unintelligible) what I found…
Marcus: I understand exactly what you mean, when they call you, it's pretty authoritative. But the thing is this, did they say - was there any particular thing about what they said or they just didn't want you to talk about it period?
Tomlinson: Just don't talk about it--period.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Darrell C. Tomlinson (Parts 1, 2, and 3):
http://jfk-archives/Part 1
http://jfk-archives/Part 2
http://jfk-archives/Part 3
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
The only remotely relevant statement in those blogs, among all those ugly ad hominem attacks on your adversaries, was the one in which you pointed out that in 1967 [sic] Tomlinson said that the bullet he found did come off of Connally's stretcher.
But that was NOT his original, earliest recollection, which is all any honest researcher should care about. He originally told both the Secret Service and the FBI that it came off a different stretcher.
After being worked over by Spector [sic], he then said he wasn't certain.
So, why would he have changed his story 4 years later?
Well, put yourself in his shoes. How many times do you suppose this conversation took place between Tomlinson and Spector [sic] or other govt. advocates?
T: That bullet didn't come off of Connally's stretcher.
G: But Daryl [sic], the FBI examined it and concluded that it came from Oswald's rifle! You don't think the FBI would lie do you? Haw, haw, haw.
How does he reply, David? At some point, he has to conclude that his memory must be faulty. If only he knew what we know now. :-)
[...]
David, you know very well that there is NOTHING in those blog articles that address what matters on this issue. Posting links to totally irrelevant articles is just a pathetic attempt to evade the evidence.
Talk about Wade, Nolan, Bell and how they corroborated John Connally.
Talk about the absence of the initials of agents Johnsen and Todd on CE399.
Talk about how the FBI tried to silence Daryl [sic] Tomlinson after they discovered that the bullet he found didn't match large fragments found in the limo.
Talk about why, within one week after receiving those bullets, Hoover was telling LBJ that Connally came between a sniper and [JFK].
CE399 was NOT the bullet that wounded Connally. It wasn't even involved in the assassination. That was PROVEN by hard evidence.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
~yawn~
And maybe you should learn how to properly spell Mr. Tomlinson's first name, Bob. Among many other things, you never get that right either.
Regarding the topics that Bob Harris mentioned above, I have talked about all of those subjects in the past at some length, and I've archived many of those discussions at my website. (See links below.) For some reason, though, Mr. Harris thinks I've totally ignored those topics altogether. ~shrug~
http://jfk-archives/Audrey Bell & Bobby Nolan
http://jfk-archives/The Secret Service & CE399
http://jfk-archives/Assassination Arguments (Part 1146)
http://jfk-archives/Darrell Tomlinson & The FBI
http://jfk-archives/Assassination Arguments (Part 737)
http://jfk-archives/The FBI's Early Mistakes
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
And why do you suppose that on Saturday, 11/23, the FBI didn't hold a press conference, gleefully announcing that they had PROOF that Oswald fired the bullet that Tomlinson found?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You must be joking. The FBI would not want to reveal to the public and the potential jury pool any specific details concerning the physical evidence at that point in time on November 23, which was a time
before Oswald was shot and his trial was pending.
Even the talkative members of the DPD and the D.A.'s office (Curry, Wade, and Fritz) wouldn't reveal any details to the press concerning the bullet evidence on November 23rd. But you think the FBI would (or should) have done such a thing? I kinda doubt it.
REPEATING....
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
After being worked over by Spector [sic], he then said he wasn't certain.
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
Pat Speer found the
Secret Service's Dec. 4, 1963 interview of Tomlinson and that's not what it says. First page here says he found the bullet on the elevator stretcher:
I can't find the FBI interview of Tomlinson. Do you have a link or are you relying on memory?
Specter apparently had these documents in front of him when
he questioned Tomlinson and was surprised when the witness contradicted himself. No wonder Specter seemed to "work him over." In later interviews Tomlinson continued to switch between which stretcher he thought the bullet was on.
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
Yes, but HE didn't say that and the Secret Service didn't claim he did. That was their conclusion, not his.
[More of Robert Harris' reply is
HERE.]
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
No. The conclusion was based on what Tomlinson told them. The
document continued:
"At the time he arrived at the elevator, a stretcher was on the elevator. The stretcher contained some bloody sheets rolled in a ball, some medical tools, two bandage pads, and a glove. Mr. Tomlinson stated that he removed the stretcher from the elevator and placed it in a foyer...."
Also interviewed were witnesses who saw Connally's stretcher upstairs. Nurse Jane Wester, who helped move Connally to the OR [Operating Room] table, said she
"rolled up the sheet on which the Governor was lying which was covered with blood, along with several pieces of paper and placed it on one end of the stretcher. She then placed some tools, which she cannot identify, on the other end of the stretcher" and asked orderly Jimison to take it to the elevator. Jimison said he saw the nurse roll up the bloody sheets and put them on the stretcher.
There were no bloody rolled-up sheets on the other stretcher.
Tomlinson repeatedly told Specter he wasn't sure which of the two stretchers came off the elevator. Understandable, since he had no reason to pay attention to either one until he found the bullet. But he did remember what else was on that particular stretcher:
Mr. TOMLINSON -- I bumped the wall and a spent cartridge or bullet rolled out that apparently had been lodged under the edge of the mat.
Mr. SPECTER -- And that was from which stretcher?
Mr. TOMLINSON -- I believe that it was "B".
Mr. SPECTER -- And what was on "B", if you recall; if anything?
Mr. TOMLINSON -- Well, at one end they had one or two sheets rolled up; I didn't examine them. They were bloody. They were rolled up on the east end of it and there were a few surgical instruments on the opposite end and a sterile pack or so.
It follows that the one with the bullet had to be Connally's stretcher, since this was the only one with rolled-up bloody sheets and various medical items. It was the one Tomlinson took off the elevator, whether he remembered it or not.
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
I'm relying on Tomlinson's statements that he discussed the same things with them that he did with Spector [sic].
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
So you don't actually know what Tomlinson told the FBI. You assumed you knew, and stated it as fact. Shouldn't do that, Robert.
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
And the FACT that the bullet that wounded them was recovered by a nurse....
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
I hope you noticed that in the same
Secret Service document an OR nurse named Standridge
"stated she did not see or hear any bullet fall from the Governor's clothes at the time she was undressing him..."
Robert, ...I'm not going over all this old ground again. I only wanted to know what you were referring to when you wrote,
"[Tomlinson] originally told both the Secret Service and the FBI it came off a different stretcher."
BTW, if that were true, why would Specter even bring up these earlier interviews? That doesn't fit your theory that he was trying to hide the truth. It fits my theory that Specter was trying to jog Tomlinson's memory.
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
Jean, you seem to have lost track of the conversation. Your original assertion was:
"First page here says he found the bullet on the elevator stretcher..."
I replied:
"Yes, but HE didn't say that and the Secret Service didn't claim he did. That was their conclusion, not his."
You then cited the SS report in which they said the stretcher bore:
"some medical tools, two bandage pads, and a glove."
And nothing else.
You were supposed to site them claiming that Tomlinson said the bullet was on that particular stretcher. But you did not; you only misrepresented your own citation by claiming it did.
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
Didn't you read it? Only one stretcher is ever mentioned -- "THE stretcher" that "Tomlinson stated" he removed from the elevator.
".... This area was secured by the Secret Service and only hospital personnel and officers were allowed inside. Mr. Tomlinson stated *the stretcher* was left unattended for about an hour, then he walked to *the stretcher* and moved it by shoving *the stretcher* against a wall. At that point he noticed the bullet come rolling out from under the pad on *the stretcher*...." [my emphasis]
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
There is no doubt that Tomlinson brought Connally's stretcher down on the elevator. But there was no bullet on it.
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
Then how do you explain the stretcher with rolled-up sheets and medical instruments that OR witnesses said Connally was on? It was put on the elevator and sent downstairs, so what happened to that one, Robert?
[...]
My argument is that memories change over time, which is a proven fact. By the time he testified Tomlinson mis-remembered which stretcher came off the elevator, but he could still describe the articles on it.
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
As you know all too well, the bullet from that "gurney" was recovered on the second floor by a nurse, who showed it to DA Wade and gave it to officer Nolan, who delivered it to the DPD that evening.
Connally confirmed that fact himself, and nurse Audrey Bell put the lie to the FBI's claim that she gave tiny wrist fragments to Nolan.
[...]
Connally was very specific that the bullet fell as he was being transferred from his stretcher to an operating table on the second floor. His clothing was removed on the first floor.
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
Sorry, I should've said "ER nurse," not "OR."
Standridge testified that she helped remove his clothing in Emergency Room #2 on the first floor and:
Mr. SPECTER -- Did you notice any object in Governor Connally's clothing?
Miss STANDRIDGE -- Not unusual.
Mr. SPECTER -- Did you notice a bullet, specifically?
Miss STANDRIDGE -- No.
Mr. SPECTER -- Did you hear the sound of anything fall?
Miss STANDRIDGE -- I didn't.
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
It is critical to understand that Tomlinson couldn't have found a bullet on Connally's stretcher, since it was already recovered by that nurse. It is predictable that he would deny that he did.
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
He denied he found a bullet???
[...]
In my view, Specter read the FBI and SS reports and probably wasn't expecting Tomlinson to tell a different story, whether during their initial discussion or in his testimony.
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
I do not try to read the minds of the dead, Jean. And Spector's [sic] motivations are irrelevant. All that matters is what Tomlinson did and saw.
Perhaps the most important part of his testimony was when he pointed out that the bullet fell when he was pushing the stretcher, which had been moved by someone using the rest room, back in place....
Mr. TOMLINSON -- Well, sir; I don't recall how long it had been exactly, but an intern or doctor, I didn't know which, came to use the men's room there in the elevator lobby.
Mr. SPECTER -- What happened when that gentleman came to use the men's room?
Mr. TOMLINSON -- Well, he pushed the stretcher out from the wall to get in, and then when he came out he just walked off and didn't push the stretcher back up against the wall, so I pushed it out of the way where we would have clear area in front of the elevator.
Mr. SPECTER -- And where did you push it to?
Mr. TOMLINSON -- I pushed it back up against the wall.
Mr. SPECTER -- What, if anything, happened then?
Mr. TOMLINSON -- I bumped the wall and a spent cartridge or bullet rolled out that apparently had been lodged under the edge of the mat.
(unquote)
[...]
ONLY THE B STRETCHER WAS BLOCKING THE RESTROOM.
ONLY THE B STRETCHER.
That was the stretcher which held the bullet that Tomlinson found. That's why he said that the only way he could be wrong was if someone rearranged them, but why would anyone do that?
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
Please cut and paste Tomlinson saying the only way he could be wrong was if someone rearranged them:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/tomlinso.htm
Good luck with that, you're gonna need it.
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
Any stretcher with a bullet on it is probably going to be accompanied by bloody sheets, for obvious reasons.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
When Darrell Tomlinson was interviewed by Ray Marcus in July of 1966 [
Click Here], Tomlinson said that the stretcher he took off the elevator had
"some surgical instruments" and
"sheets rolled up" on it. But he told Marcus he didn't remember if the sheets were bloody or not (
Page 1).
Do some conspiracy theorists now contend that
BOTH of the stretchers Tomlinson saw in the Parkland corridor on 11/22/63 had bloody sheets
AND surgical instruments on them? I suppose that is, indeed, a possibility, but I don't recall any CTer ever making that claim in the past. ~shrug~
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
David, this is a hospital for god's sake, in a city that's full of rednecks who ride around with rifles mounted in the cabs of the pickups. :-)
Of course, Connally's stretcher had bloody sheets on it. But so did the one that held the bullet that Tomlinson found, as he testified.
Parkland treats an average of 2-3 gunshot victims per day. There are probably days when they treat none and other days when they treat half a dozen or more.
And that elevator was right next to the ER on the second floor, so it's not at all surprising that there was another stretcher that held a gunshot victim.
ROBERT HARRIS ALSO SAID:
Are you actually going to argue that the "B" stretcher never existed???
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
No. You don't get it. There was no reason to mention the other stretcher if he found the bullet on the one he took off the elevator.
This is the important point: Tomlinson told Specter that the stretcher with the bullet had rolled-up sheets at one end and medical tools at the other, like the one nurse Wester sent downstairs:
"Miss Wester then rolled up the sheet on which the Governor was lying which was covered with blood, along with several pieces of paper and placed it on one end of the stretcher. She then placed some tools, which she cannot identify, on the other end of the stretcher and asked orderly Jimison to take it to the elevator."
Here's Tomlinson's 1964 description again:
Mr. SPECTER -- What, if anything, happened then?
Mr. TOMLINSON -- I bumped the wall and a spent cartridge or bullet rolled out that apparently had been lodged under the edge of the mat.
Mr. SPECTER -- And that was from which stretcher?
Mr. TOMLINSON -- I believe that it was "B".
Mr. SPECTER -- And what was on "B", if you recall; if anything?
Mr. TOMLINSON -- Well, at one end they had one or two sheets rolled up; I didn't examine them. They were bloody. They were rolled up on the east end of it and there were a few surgical instruments on the opposite end and a sterile pack or so.
What an amazing coincidence -- a stretcher that sounds just like Connally's.
The stretcher he
*thought* he'd taken off the elevator didn't have the same items on it:
Mr. SPECTER -- Was there anything on the elevator at that time?
Mr. TOMLINSON -- There was one stretcher.
Mr. SPECTER -- And describe the appearance of that stretcher, if you will, please.
Mr. TOMLINSON -- I believe that stretcher had sheets on it and had a white covering on the pad.
Mr. SPECTER -- What did you say about the covering on the pad, excuse me?
Mr. TOMLINSON -- I believe it was a white sheet that was on the pad.
Mr. SPECTER -- And was there anything else on that?
Mr. TOMLINSON -- I don't believe there was on that one, I'm not sure, but I don't believe there was.
The simplest and best explanation is that he got the two mixed up when he testified. Otherwise how do you explain that the items he told Specter were on opposite ends of the bullet stretcher were the same items Wester had said were on Connally's when the SS interviewed her four months earlier?
If you're about to say there was a third stretcher from another victim, please read on....
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
Big hospitals like Parkland treat thousands of patients, and they standardize their procedures. The odds are high that the stretchers from two gunshot victims will have the same items on them, including the bloody sheets.
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
There were only two stretchers in that small room, according to Tomlinson's drawing [
Tomlinson Exhibit No. 2]. Only two in every account he gave, including some on YouTube.
Plus, Jimison testified that no other stretcher was placed on the elevator later that day (he got off at 3:30).
Also, Connally and JFK were the only two GSW (gunshot wound) patients admitted to the ER that afternoon [see
Price Exhibit No. 5].
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
[Parkland nurse Audrey] Bell was always consistent that she never gave her tiny fragments to officer Nolan or anyone else in uniform. She gave them to plain clothed agents, almost certainly from the FBI.
That's why the memo that she sent to Price, signed by her and one of the agents, has disappeared. Even the ARRB couldn't locate it. Guess who was the last agency to have it. :-)
The FBI lied, Jean, not only about Bell saying she gave anything to Nolan, but that she gave only a single fragment. They had to lie about that too, because they had already acknowledged that Nolan's envelope only contained ONE ITEM.
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
Sorry, I'm not going down that rabbit hole again. You're relying on the weakest possible evidence: hearsay and years-old memory, plus suspicion, which isn't evidence at all.
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
Neither the FBI or the Secret Service ever CLAIMED that Tomlinson told him that the bullet came from Connally's stretcher.
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
The SS document clearly says that
*, and you've never seen what the FBI claimed (that document may exist somewhere too, like the SS one that went missing until Pat Speer found it).
[
* The photo below shows an excerpt from pages 1 and 2 of the December 5, 1963, Secret Service report.]
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
Standridge was nowhere near Connally when he was being transferred to the operating table and the bullet fell.
JEAN DAVISON SAID:
Standridge wasn't in the OR area but many other people were.
In April 1964, Dr. Gregory testified:
"I first saw Governor Connally after Dr. Shaw had prepared him and draped him for the surgical procedures which he carried out on the Governor's chest...."
"....I would like to add to that we were disconcerted by not finding a missile at all. Here was our patient with three discernible wounds, and no missile within him of sufficient magnitude to account for them, and we suggested that someone ought to search his belongings and other areas where he had been to see if it could be identified or found, rather."
JEAN DAVISON LATER SAID:
I searched the online Dallas Morning News archive for Tomlinson and didn't find much, but I did find this in a 4/22/77 article by Earl Golz:
After ID-ing Bill Stinson as a Connally aide who was in the OR, Golz wrote that Stinson
"was with the nurse when she placed several bullet fragments from Connally's wrist into an envelope." The nurse is ID-ed as Audrey Bell. The article continues:
"There was more than one fragment (placed in the envelope)," Stinson said.
"I don't remember how many." [the phrase in parentheses was in the article, not an addition by me]
Mystery nurse identified! Mysterious second bullet goes poof!
[...]
Notice the similarity to your FBI document on Stinson in that no whole bullet is mentioned, only "a fragment." Stinson was there with Nolan, who told you [Robert Harris] that he never saw what was in the sealed envelope, so he didn't know what was in it.
There's also
this DPD document listing where various items of evidence came from. It says:
"Bullet fragments taken from body of Governor Connally
Mrs. Audrey Bell, operating room nurse, to Bob Nolan, D.P.S., to Capt. Fritz, to Crime Lab, to FBI"
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
To Jean Davison:
Thank you (once again), Jean, for providing hard, documented facts (and a whole lot of common sense, to boot) concerning topics associated with the JFK assassination. Your posts never fail to inform and enlighten.
DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:
Bob Harris might not ever recover after reading that DPD document posted earlier by Jean Davison, who seems to possess a built-in radar that leads her directly to relevant items relating to the JFK case.
Let's now compare these two statements (the first one by Robert Harris and the second one from
this DPD document, which is a document that can also be found
here in Warren Commission Volume 24):
"[Audrey] Bell flatly denied the FBI's claim that she said she gave the fragments to Nolan. Nolan was in full dress uniform that day and she was adamant that she gave the wrist fragments to two plain clothed agents, who were undoubtedly with the FBI."
-- Robert Harris;
July 7, 2014
----------
"Bullet fragments taken from body of Governor Connally. Mrs. Audrey Bell, operating room nurse, to Bob Nolan, D.P.S., to Capt. Fritz, to Crime Lab, to FBI" --
Dallas Police Department Document
----------
Yet another conspiracy myth down the drain.
Thank you, Jean D.
[Note -- Jean imparts additional facts and common sense
here,
here, and
here.]
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
Jean Davison looked at
this blowup from WC exhibit CE-842 and determined
that the cause of:
1. the faint, partially erased "FF" in the upper left
2. the "b-" (unintelligible) in the lower left area
3. the partially erased cartoon kitty face in the lower center
4. and a multitude of other character fragments
Are all caused by those damned ballpoint pens!!
Her exact words:
"Looks like normal ballpoint pen skips to me."
And then she looked at
this high contrast scan that John Hunt made.
She concluded that the heavy creases in the envelope were the product of normal handling over the years.
Of course, normal "handling" would never have caused the deep creases we see on this envelope, and Hunt scanned it after it had been laying flat in the archives for over 40 years.
The creases are not straight, so they were not the result of it being folded. They are the very clear result of this envelope having once been wadded up and tossed into a waste basket.
This was not a fresh, unused envelope like [Audrey] Bell used to hold those tiny wrist fragments. It was also not initialed by Bell, something she had done hundreds of times before, and as she testified that she did that day. Only an inexperienced nurse would have forgotten to initial a foreign body envelope - just as only an inexperienced nurse would wander out into the hallway, asking who she should give her envelope to.
And of course, Bell also testified that she never gave her envelope to Nolan or anyone else in uniform that day.
And the hard evidence of that battered, scribbled-on, and partially-erased envelope proves that it was not in pristine condition as it would have been if Bell had processed it. Wade must have been angry that this nurse had been carrying the most important evidence of his career around in her pocket all afternoon. He demanded that she get it to the police by yesterday.
So she rummaged around in the wastebasket and found an envelope, flattened it out as best she could and then hastily erased as much of the scribbling as she could before dropping the bullet into it and giving it to the cop she saw in the hallway.
ALL RELEVANT EVIDENCE supports the fact that Bell was not the nurse who gave an envelope to Nolan. Nolan confirmed it, Wade confirmed it, Connally confirmed it and Bell, herself, confirmed it.
Pretending that all of those people suffered nearly identical delusions is so spectacularly ridiculous that it's only worthy of a good laugh.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
As Bob Harris knows, there are two sets of initials that are upside down when we view the picture of
CE842 (Bobby Nolan's
"BMN" initials and Captain J. Will Fritz'
"JWF" initials); see the 2010 discussion
here.
FWIW....I said this in the above-linked 2010 discussion:
[DVP Quote On:]
"I was going to postulate the notion that three of the oddball markings that surround Captain Fritz' initials on CE842 were merely large "periods" to punctuate each of his three initials (J.W.F.), because the location of three of those marks are just about in the proper locations on the envelope that would make such a suggestion a possibility, similar to the rather large-sized periods that Bobby M. Nolan utilized when he initialed the very same envelope (B.M.N.), which are bigger than just the pinpoint type of periods that usually accompany a person's initials....but I doubt I could convince any of the conspiracy-seeking individuals in this Internet locality that those markings are, indeed, "periods". (But maybe Captain Fritz was nervous that day when he initialed CE842, and all of his punctuation mushroomed into lines, instead of dots for his periods.) ~grin~ [See the arrows in the photo below.]
Anyway, the fact obviously remains that J. Will Fritz positively did place his initials (JWF) on Commission Exhibit No. 842.
[...]
I'd rather continue to verbally poke Robert Harris in the eye a few more times for his willingness (even eagerness) to label additional unnamed members of the Federal Bureau of Investigation as "liars" and evidence-tamperers with regard to Warren Commission Exhibit No. 842.
This quote from the electronic lips of Robert Harris—culled from one of his posts at The Education Forum on April 19, 2010—will stand forever as a good example of the level of a conspiracy theorist's willingness to grab at any straw he can invent, in order to smear the authorities who handled the evidence connected with John F. Kennedy's assassination:
"The FBI...altered the evidence envelope that held the bullet and forged the name of nurse Audrey Bell, to make it appear that the envelope held the fragments from Connally's wrist, instead of the bullet from his leg." -- Robert Harris; 04/19/2010"
[End Quote]
-- DVP; May 19, 2010
--------------
Back to 2016....
Even though I can't prove that the six separate markings that appear on CE842 following each of the six initials (JWF and BMN) are punctuation marks (periods), I do find it kind of interesting that there are exactly
six such marks located in precisely the areas following the "JWF" and the "BMN" that would normally be areas where a person would write such punctuation if they wanted to place periods after each of their initials.
Funny coincidence, huh?
David Von Pein
November 9—December 7, 2016
December 8, 2016
December 20, 2016
ALSO SEE:
