TONY MARSH SAID:
[Lee Harvey Oswald's trip to Irving, Texas, on Thursday, November 21, 1963, was] Not so unusual.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Name one other time when Oswald went to Irving on a Thursday.
You can't do it. Because it never happened (except for the day before JFK's assassination).
TONY MARSH SAID:
You want kooks to propose easy to shoot down arguments to make you look like the hero.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
No. I'm challenging the "kooks" to propose just one reasonable and believable "Oswald Is Innocent" scenario for Oswald's Thursday-night trip to Irving and his "curtain rod" tale and his taking a package to work on 11/22. That's all.
TONY MARSH SAID:
What I have proposed many times is that this was the last ditch effort to convince Marina to move back in with him and if successful he would have the whole weekend to find an apartment big enough for his growing family.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yes, I think Lee did want to get back together quickly with Marina. But this is only part of the scenario. He used the "curtain rod" lie for a reason. And that reason was so that he could use the same curtain rod lie AGAIN on Friday morning, should he decide he wanted to go ahead with his plan to bring his rifle to work and shoot the President, which (of course) he ultimately did decide to do.
Per Buell Wesley Frazier, Oswald also said that Marina had made him some curtains for his rented room. But as far as I am aware, Marina had made no curtains for her husband at any time. So that was part of the lie too. (Unless you want to call Wesley Frazier a liar, instead of calling Oswald one, which is just silly under the circumstances.)
TONY MARSH SAID:
OK, they told Oswald that it was take your rifle to work week and they wanted to see his rifle.
Someone offered to buy his rifle, so he went to Irving to get the rifle to sell at the TSBD.
Oswald couldn't sleep because the curtains were so flimsy in his room, so he went out to the Paines to steal a pair of curtain rods and some room-darkening curtains.
There, is that enough to keep you busy for a while? Glad to help.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Naturally, any CTer can just start making up goofy "alternate" theories to explain away Oswald's incriminating actions and lies -- as we can see with the goofy explanation just now provided by Anthony Marsh above.
But is it REASONABLE and BELIEVABLE under the circumstances and after we examine the REST of the evidence pertaining to the assassination on November 22nd?....
1.) Oswald's gun is found in the Depository.
2.) Shells from Oswald's gun are found under the sniper's window.
3.) Bullet fragments from Oswald's gun are found in JFK's limousine.
4.) Oswald's prints are all over the place DEEP within the Sniper's Nest.
5.) Oswald's gun turns up missing from Ruth Paine's garage.
Therefore, given the above facts, is Tony Marsh's explanation a reasonable one to explain why Oswald went to Irving on Thursday, 11/21/63, and for the "curtain rod" tale that Oswald told Wesley Frazier?
If anybody answers: Yes, Dave, Tony's scenario is perfectly reasonable and believable under the circumstances, then that person needs a reality check asap.
TONY MARSH SAID:
You don't know for a fact what Oswald told Frazier. You weren't there. You only have hearsay.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Well, duh!
Of course all I have is Frazier's "hearsay". But it's "hearsay" that Buell Frazier has never (ever) recanted or backed away from. Every time he tells his story, we always hear about how Oswald told Frazier about the curtain rods.
Tony, are you REALLY willing to call Frazier a liar? Or just mistaken about hearing the words "curtain rods" come out of Oswald's mouth? Do you really think Wes Frazier was wrong about that? I doubt you do.
TONY MARSH SAID:
And who said that Oswald was a totally innocent patsy regarding everything that happened in Dallas on Nov. 22?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
A lot of conspiracy theorists think Oswald was totally innocent of shooting the two men that Oswald obviously shot and killed. THAT'S what I mean when I say that many CTers think Oswald was a "totally innocent patsy". I'm talking about Oswald being a GUNMAN/KILLER. And you know that, of course. You just want to argue, which I knew you would when I first posted this thread.
TONY MARSH SAID:
I don't remember anyone claiming that Oswald was ordered to kill Tippit or that the killing of Tippit was part of the master plan.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You'd better go talk to Jim Garrison's ghost then. Because Kook Garrison most certainly thought (in 1967 anyway) that the murder of J.D. Tippit was, indeed, part of the "master plan". Here's exactly what Garrison told Playboy Magazine in 1967:
"The murder of Tippit, which I am convinced Oswald didn't commit, was clearly designed to set the stage for Oswald's liquidation in the Texas Theater after another anonymous tip-off. .... The clincher, as far as I'm concerned, is that four cartridges were found at the scene of the [Tippit] slaying. .... We suspect that cartridges had been previously obtained from Oswald's .38 revolver and left at the murder site by the real killers as part of the setup to incriminate Oswald."
-- Jim Garrison; 1967
TONY MARSH SAID:
They didn't find his [Oswald's] jacket for several days either.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yes, but they DID eventually find that blue jacket, didn't they Tony? So, logically, if Oswald had really had curtain rods in that package on Nov. 22, then some rods would have turned up inside the TSBD after the assassination. But none did, per CE2640 and Roy Truly.
TONY MARSH SAID:
There are curtain rods in the National Archives.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
So? Those are Ruth Paine's rods. They certainly aren't rods that were found in the Book Depository. But, of course, you know this already, Tony. You just thought it would be nice to throw up that "strawman" about rods being in the National Archives....even though you know full well that those are the exact same rods that were still wrapped in Paine's garage after the assassination. So why even mention those rods? Just for the fun of it?
TONY MARSH SAID:
Why should Oswald mention curtain rods? We don't know what Oswald told the police. The police are empowered to lie about the evidence and what a suspect said.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
"Empowered to lie about the evidence", Tony?
You're unbelievable.
TONY MARSH SAID:
Did Oswald tell them that he ate lunch that day?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
He sure did.
But, naturally, a conspiracy theorist like you feels compelled to point the blame at the cops, instead of pointing it at the guilty party (Oswald).
To a CTer like Marsh, apparently the POLICE have a much bigger reason to tell a bunch of lies than does the accused double-killer named Oswald.
Tony, you're unbelievable.
TONY MARSH SAID:
What if we don't want to fall for your lame construction[?] Can we just skip your silly questions?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I guess not, Tony, since you feel compelled to answer each and every one.
But since you brought up "lame construction", I'd like to offer up a response I received from another "out in left field" conspiracist named Walt Cakebread. Walt was answering my initial question, which was: How did those amazing plotters get Oswald to go to Irving on 11/21/63?
Here is Walt's brilliant reply:
"Answer....They didn't. You're either displaying your dishonesty or your stupidity by asking this rhetorical question. Oswald's FBI manipulator had told him that if things happened as the FBI thought they would during JFK's visit on Friday, the stage would be set for him (LHO) to "flee" to Cuba under suspiction [sic] as "the leader of a small band of communists" (FPFCC) who had plotted to shoot JFK. His FBI manipulator told him that if he wanted to see his wife and kids one last time before "fleeing" on Friday, he should use the pretext of needing curtain rods for his room." -- Walt; 9/29/2011
TONY MARSH SAID:
What if some conspiracy believers agree with the HSCA that Oswald was one of the shooters? Will you still attack them with such venom?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Of course not. But most Internet CTers believe Oswald was NOT a shooter. Therefore, those CTers are flat-out nuts, and I won't hesitate to call them that.
TONY MARSH SAID:
One possibility is that he was covering up for someone else. Another is that he knew it was a conspiracy, but he was assigned to take the fall.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
And another (more reasonable) possibility is that Oswald acted alone in killing Kennedy and Tippit. (Which is the scenario the evidence favors, of course.)
Never thought of that possibility, did you Tony?
TONY MARSH SAID:
What is your preoccupation with saying that Oswald must be completely innocent of all crimes forever[?] No one thinks that.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Huh?
TONY MARSH SAID:
Many agree that Oswald shot and killed Tippit.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You won't find many of those CTers prowling the online forums, however.
TONY MARSH SAID:
Only a few kooks claim that Oswald did not shoot at Walker.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Nonsense. Almost every CTer I've ever talked to thinks Oswald was completely innocent of the Walker shooting too.
The Anybody-But-Oswald kooks almost have to believe that Oswald was innocent of shooting at Walker too -- because if they were to actually admit that Oswald had MURDER IN HIS VEINS (which the Walker shooting attempt most certainly proves), then it would be a much more difficult task for those same ABO conspiracy theorists to prop up their fantasy about Oswald being snow-white innocent of the JFK and Tippit murders too.
TONY MARSH SAID:
So, in your perfect world, no person is ever framed for murder and such a thing is impossible.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
When did I ever say any such thing?
Decided to end your post with a "strawman", eh Tony? Nice.
David Von Pein
September 29, 2011
