Part 1399 of my "JFK Assassination Arguments" series includes a variety of my posts and comments covering the period of April 1—30, 2026. To read the entire forum discussion from which my own comments have been extracted, click on the "Full Discussion" logo at the bottom of each individual segment.
GREG DOUDNA SAID:
...the evidence indicates there was a seamstress and the only issue is the scope of the relationship, not whether there was one...
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Good heavens, Greg! You must be joking here!
You really think "the evidence indicates there was a seamstress" who was in the process of making curtains for Lee Harvey Oswald on 11/22/63? Oh my!
Instead of any real "evidence" to support such a claim, I can see only a large amount of (fairly wild) speculation and a whole lot of "wishful thinking" on your part when it comes to your "Oswald and the Seamstress" theory.
Here's a point relating to Oswald's alleged desire to have a seamstress manufacture some custom-made curtains for his crackerbox of a room on Beckley Avenue in Oak Cliff....
Why on Earth would that penny-pinching miser named Lee Oswald have wanted to spend his own money to purchase some hand-crafted curtains and (possibly, per your theory) some additional curtain rods as well*, in order to dress up a closet-sized room that (logically) Oswald had no intention of retaining for any extended period of time after November 22? That makes no sense to me at all.**
Plus, it also doesn't make sense that Oswald would have thought that he himself would have to be the person to arrange for new curtains and curtain rods to be installed in his rented room at the Beckley roominghouse (in order to replace damaged curtains or rods). That would have been the responsibility of the owners of the roominghouse, Mr. and Mrs. A.C. Johnson. That's not a tenant's burden.
* And I can only assume, Greg, that your theory involving the seamstress includes some form of cash payment that would eventually be forked over by Oswald to pay for the services of the alleged seamstress, right? This mystery curtain-maker of yours surely isn't doing all of this for free from her Dal-Tex workplace, is she?
** And I think even all conspiracy theorists would agree that Mr. Oswald wasn't planning on setting up permanent residence at 1026 Beckley in late 1963. I doubt that Lee, Marina, and their two infant girls would have been very comfortable in those cramped quarters for very long.
Also .... It doesn't make sense to me that Lee Oswald (even from the POV of your "seamstress" theory) would have wanted to tell a lie to the police about the innocuous curtain rods. Because even if he did not want to be tied directly to your mysterious seamstress (for fear of Marina finding out), telling the truth about bringing curtain rods to work—if that was, in fact, what had occurred—would still have been much more preferable than telling a blatant lie to the authorities on the day the President was killed, because such a falsehood would only tend to make Oswald look more guilty.
Although I disagree strongly with the vast majority of your analysis, I did, however, enjoy reading your full 104-page treatise. But when all the evidence relating to the events of November 22, 1963, is weighed and judged, it's my opinion that you, Gregory Doudna, are missing the vast forest for the trees.
GREG DOUDNA SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
And the seamstress is going to make the curtains from her workplace, while she's on the clock at the Dal-Tex, using Dal-Tex equipment....all at no cost to anybody? Her boss must be very tolerant.
Allow me to harp a tad longer on this portion of your theory....
Lee Oswald lying to the police about the curtain rods, which really WERE in the package he took to work, but yet he decided to lie about this harmless item after his arrest anyway.
Your reasoning related to that Curtain Rod lie is mighty weak, IMO. If it was only Marina that worried LHO in this regard, Lee could have simply said he was only interested in getting the curtains and denied he was having a torrid affair with Miss Seamstress.
And even via your made-up theory, why couldn't that have been the case anyway? No affair. Just curtains. Therefore, no lie needed to be told to anyone. After all, this whole "seamstress" thing has been created out of nothing but whole cloth in the first place. Ergo, all theories can work equally well.
Related Links:
JFK-Archives.blogspot.com/Curtain Rods (Part 1)
JFK-Archives.blogspot.com/Curtain Rods (Part 2)
David Von Pein
April 3, 2026
================================
"TEXEXTRA" SAID:
You can't prove there weren't curtain rods in the bag because you can't prove what was in it.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Oswald TOLD US that there weren't any "curtain rods" in that bag (or ANY other bag)! He told us that when he denied (to the police) that he had ever said anything to Wes Frazier about "curtain rods".
Oswald also flat-out denied ever taking any large (non-lunch) bag into the TSBD on 11/22. That, too, is a provable lie. (Unless you'd rather take the word of the accused murderer on this matter, rather than the word of TWO people who weren't being charged with double-murder -- Buell Wesley Frazier and Linnie Mae Randle.)
Oswald's lies, alone, prove that there were no curtain rods. Because if there had been any innocuous "rods" in the bag (and not something like, say, a rifle, that Oswald desperately wanted/needed to distance himself from), Lee would have said to the cops: "Yeah, I took some curtain rods into work".
And then, Oswald would have been able to produce some physical curtain rods to back up that claim. Or at least tell the police what he did with said rods.
No rods in TSBD + No rods at LHO's roominghouse + Oswald's lies to police regarding the rods/Frazier = There never were any curtain rods....period.
"TEXEXTRA" SAID:
There are many things that could have been in that bag about which Oswald might have wanted privacy for one reason or another -- a children's toy, a medical sample container, erotica, family heirlooms, etc.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yeah, anything could have been in that bag except Rifle C2766...right?
Anything but that!!!
A "family heirloom" or "child's toy" that Oswald feels he has to lie about to both Wesley Frazier and the Dallas Police Department???
~~laugh~~
"TEXEXTRA" SAID:
Ah, but HE [Lee Oswald] didn't say it was a family heirloom or child's toy. He said there was no bag.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Right. Which was positively a lie right there. Unless, as I said, you want to accuse Frazier and Randle of telling tales out of school. Do you?
And what possible reason would Lee Oswald have had to lie about an innocent package (especially AFTER he's arrested and charged with murders that CTers think he never committed)?
Via a scenario of LHO being INNOCENT....would he want to lie about a toy package even? A rubber ducky is a whole lot better (for LHO) in that package than a Mannlicher-Carcano. But STILL he wants to lie about it if he's innocent??!
Boy, what a nice patsy!
MARTY SAID:
Frazier saw him [Oswald] going through the door into the loading dock area with the package but, if I recall, that door did not directly lead into the TSBD. One would have to go through another door to go into the building itself. Someone explained this to me years ago when I was musing about where he might have stashed the package. Two or three people saw him at/around 7:30 am, but he wasn't carrying anything. This package wasn't exactly the size that you could stick down your pant leg or hide under your shirt.
We don't know when he took the package to the sixth floor, presumably via the stairwell. Amazing luck that he wasn't seen.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I don't deny the "luck" factor for a moment. LHO was VERY lucky on 11/22. Esp. in that he had the WHOLE sixth floor all to himself at precisely the right time.
I often wonder how many times Bonnie Ray Williams might have said to himself -- "If only I had stayed up there for a few more minutes, maybe Oswald wouldn't have done it."
IMO, Oswald wouldn't have attempted the killing if he knew that a witness was on the same 6th Floor.
Although, hindsight, you know.... ;)
"TEXEXTRA" SAID:
So, how do you suppose the shooter knew there WASN'T a witness on the same floor?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
That's a fair question indeed (what with Oswald being surrounded by high box cartons in his Sniper's Nest).
My guess -- Oswald listened very intently. He heard nobody moving around on the 6th Floor (after Bonnie Ray Williams left at approx. 12:15 to 12:20). But if Arce, Norman, Jarman, Lovelady, et al, had decided to go to the 6th Floor to watch the parade, instead of other areas within the Depository, there is no way in this world that Lee Oswald fires that rifle from that Sniper's Nest at 12:30.....especially if he hears MULTIPLE people moving around and talking on that same sixth floor.
I somehow doubt that that ONE (4th) extra bullet is going to take care of multiple sixth-floor eyewitnesses. And, of course, from a pre-shooting LHO mindset, he couldn't possibly have known how many of those 4 bullets he would need to get the job done on Mr. Kennedy. It might very well have taken all four bullets for all he knew at 12:29. Who could know?
In a (lone) nutshell....
The totally deserted state of Floor #6 at 12:30 PM on 11/22/63, in effect, cost the President his life.
IMHO. YMMV.
ANTHONY MARSH SAID:
One thing seems to be missing from this discussion. Common sense. If there happened to be a spectator on the fifth floor, just move up to the sixth floor. If there happened to be a spectator on the sixth floor, just walk up to the seventh floor. If there is a spectator on the seventh floor, go up to the roof.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
And then Oswald would be hauling his rifle from floor to floor (in full view of these other people on these different floors he was trying to distance himself from) until he finds an empty floor???
Is that about the size of your proposal?? That's using "common sense" in your view?
And then, via such a floor-hopping proposition, Oswald gets to start building his Sniper's Nest all over again on the 5th Floor and then possibly on the 7th Floor.
Were there even enough box cartons to build such a shielding Nest on those floors, btw? Beats me. But Floor #6 was just right for Oswald's purposes....a re-flooring project taking place on that floor that day, which meant boxes were scattered hither & yon, with a large quantity of cartons already on the east end (per Williams and Givens) that day, with which Oswald could easily build his Nest without too much difficulty.
And you should know, Tony, that the roof was out of the question as a shooting perch. Marrion Baker verified that fact in his testimony. Any gunman would have needed a stepladder to see above the high wall that surrounded the rooftop area.
Of course, to be fair, it's likely that Oswald wouldn't have known how the wall was laid out up on the roof before 11/22, unless he scouted out possible shooting locations earlier in the week, which certainly is a possibility, with Oswald possibly realizing that the sixth floor was his best bet for a shooting location, what with him probably knowing that the re-flooring project would be continuing on Floor #6 on Nov. 22....making his task of building his Nest all the easier and less noticeable.
MARTY SAID:
Hmm - I have thought about Williams and re-read his statement several times trying to visualize the scene. He said he heard nothing while sitting there until he heard the voices on 5th floor. Yet Brennan stated he watched the man in the window move about. Stocking feet?
IF the rifle was in the paper bag, would not that have made some noise when it was removed - i.e., "crinkling"? What about the clinking of metal when the rifle was re-assembled? We have to assume this was the area where the rifle was re-assembled, because if you believe DPD, this was where the bag was found.
From Brennan's observations, one does not get the impression the man in the window was busy putting together a dismantled rifle. It would be reasonable to assume the rifle was already assembled. Where and when?
Was the man in the window aware Williams was sitting within feet of him? And, what was he prepared to do about that situation if Williams had not left? Lucky man - Williams.
Now consider the two men directly below on the fifth floor. They did not say of hearing movement directly above them pre-shooting (think Brennan). At some point in time, the boxes piled for the "shooting bench" had to be arranged.
So, if we believe Williams arrived on the 6th floor between 12 and 12:20, then our man was already in the SN [Sniper's Nest] according to Brennan.
You are a very smart and observant guy, David. So help me with a re-enactment.
Thanks.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
David Von Pein
April 5-16, 2007
Re-posted April 4, 2026
================================
WALT CAKEBREAD SAID:
By your own chronology, [Roy] Truly would have had to seen Oswald as he climbed the stairs.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
My chronology doesn't require Truly to have seen Oswald. Oswald probably ducked off the stairway just a matter of seconds before Truly appeared on Floor #2.
But for some stupid reason, you seem to think Truly was "several seconds" ahead of Baker (vs. "a few feet", per Truly himself). Go figure.
WALT CAKEBREAD SAID:
You claim that Oswald reached the lunchroom six seconds before Baker arrived.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Those are the estimates provided by the average times of the four Warren Commission re-creations, yes. And those re-creations [2 with Officer Baker and 2 with Roy Truly] perfectly align with what the WC says Oswald probably did after shooting JFK.
I guess, per conspiracists, it's just another "coincidence" that the Warren Commission (and Baker himself) were able to re-create something that CTers say was utterly impossible, huh? Just like the Discovery Channel re-created the general path of the Single-Bullet Theory, even though that too is considered an absolute impossibility according to most conspiracy theorists. Go figure.
WALT CAKEBREAD SAID:
But you claim that Oswald WALKED from the sixth floor to the lunchroom.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I never once said that Oswald positively "walked" to the 2nd Floor. He could have run part of the way. I said that John Howlett, the Secret Service Agent who did the re-creations of Oswald's probable movements, performed his reconstructions at two different "walking" paces, yes. But that doesn't mean that Oswald "walked" it. Maybe he did run. Who can know? No one can.
But the point is -- even if LHO had only WALKED to the 2nd Floor, it was still a doable journey in order to arrive on the second floor approx. 6 to 7 seconds before Baker/Truly.
WALT CAKEBREAD SAID:
He [Marrion Baker] said he looked up after the FIRST shot and noticed pigeons bursting from behind the Hertz sign on top of the TSBD and thought that was where the gunman was, so he immediately sped up his motorcycle and ran into the TSBD.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
The Wiegman Film shows Baker just after he dismounted his cycle, which equates to ______? Fill in the blank concerning this unknown, because without sound on Wiegman's film, we can't tell if the shooting is completely over when we see Baker, but it's certainly close. Plus there are Baker's own words, when he said (in his Warren Commission testimony) that all three shots had already occurred by the time he dismounted his cycle:
"Before I revved up this motorcycle, I heard the, you know, the two extra shots, the three shots." -- Marrion L. Baker [3 H 247].
WALT CAKEBREAD SAID:
Baker said the door was closed. Therefore Oswald was not the sniper.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
So, a door has proved Oswald's innocence. The fact that a door was deemed closed is a good enough reason to make a conspiracy theorist named Walt declare Oswald innocent of shooting President Kennedy.
Great logic there. Let's just ignore all of that OTHER evidence against Mr. Oswald, and stick by that door with the automatic closing mechanism on it to prove Oswald's innocence.
Oops....looks like Walt needs to re-think the "closed door" thing after all. Because we have this testimony from Officer Baker, in which he comments on the status of the vestibule door:
MARRION BAKER -- "All I did was catch a glance at him, and evidently he was—this door might have been, you know, closing and almost shut at that time."
MR. BELIN -- "You are pointing by "this door" to the door on Exhibit 498?"
MR. BAKER -- "Yes, sir."
WALT CAKEBREAD SAID:
Thank you....You've just stepped in it again. You said that Oswald could have reached the lunchroom in 78 seconds. And since the door was either shut or "almost shut at that time", Oswald would have had to reach the lunchroom about 15 or 20 seconds PRIOR to Baker's arrival.
If it took Oswald 78 seconds to reach the lunchroom and 15 seconds for the door to close, then it's elementary that Oswald would have had to descend from the fake "sniper's nest" to the lunchroom in 63 seconds.
The Warren Commission said that he would have needed 78 seconds to reach the lunchroom, and if it took 15 seconds for the door to close, then that means the door closed 93 seconds after the LAST shot and Baker would have been there watching it close....because you said it took Baker 82.5 seconds to reach the lunchroom after the LAST shot.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
And this must mean that Walt The Super-Sleuth has timed the door-closing mechanism on the TSBD lunchroom vestibule door, correct? He knows it takes that door at least "15 seconds" to fully close. It must have been a door made by the "Snail-Pace Door Co. Inc.". Fifteen seconds for a door to close, even via an auto door-closing device is unGodly slow. No door is likely to take that long to fully shut.
But even if it took 60 seconds to fully close, Walt's still living in a dream world by attempting to micro-manage every tiny detail surrounding Oswald's and Baker's post-12:30 movements on 11/22/63 -- movements that shall forever remain guesswork to a substantial extent. There's no way around this "guesswork" when it comes to Oswald's movements, and to some degree Baker's as well. But the best evidence is that Oswald did descend those back stairs after the shooting and ended up meeting Baker in the vestibule or lunchroom area just seconds after he (LHO) arrived on the 2nd Floor.
It's also quite likely (common-sense-wise here) that Oswald didn't take the time to FULLY OPEN the vestibule door. Why would he? Who opens a door to its full extent before entering a room...EVER? Very unlikely occurrence. Therefore, Oswald might very well have only opened that door far enough to allow him to slip inside it quickly.
Meaning: the door would not have had nearly as far to close, since it probably wasn't opened all the way by Oswald in the first place. Just a very few seconds...tops. Certainly not nearly as many as fifteen seconds.
Rabid conspiracy theorists like Walt Cakebread, however, will do anything necessary to deviate from the "Oswald Did It" path. Even if they have to micro-manage the case right down to counting the number of seconds it takes a door to close (which, of course, was never "timed" by anyone as far as I am aware; but Walt seems to be an expert in this field of door-closers, so I guess he just expects everyone to take his word for anything he says).
WALT CAKEBREAD SAID:
You know and acknowledge that Lee's movements are nothing but "guesswork", but in the very next sentence you say...."But the best evidence is that Oswald did descend those back stairs".
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yes. Exactly. So?
The "Best Evidence" (by far) is that Oswald did descend those stairs after being on the 6th Floor at 12:30 while shooting the President.
Some guesswork is (inevitably) involved in trying to piece together Oswald's movements, since Lee wasn't nice enough to tell Capt. Fritz, et al, his step-by-step activities on 11/22.
WALT CAKEBREAD SAID:
In one breath you acknowledge that there is no solid evidence that Oswald descended those stairs after the shooting, but in the very next breath you say there is evidence that Oswald descended those stairs.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
There's solid evidence that Oswald was firing a gun on the sixth floor at 12:30....and there's no question that Oswald was in the 2nd-Floor lunchroom at approx. 12:31:30. It doesn't take a genius to do the math here, does it?
The exact number of steps it took for Lee to get from floors 6 to 2 is unknown, and the exact number of seconds it took him to do it will forever be guesswork as well. But the best guess is that he DID perform his trip from Floor #6 to Floor #2 in the allotted timeframe.
And then there are the other little things to consider too. Things like:
Oswald's prints all over the joint up on the 6th Floor; Oswald's very own rifle on that same floor (and those three spent bullet shells); and that pesky paper bag with LHO's prints on it.
That's an abundant amount of "Oswald Was Up Here On The Sixth Floor Shooting A Gun" evidence to fake, isn't it?
To believe all of that stuff was conveniently "arranged" by conspirators is to believe in some really fanciful clandestine handiwork.
WALT CAKEBREAD SAID:
Anybody who knows the facts knows that the Warren Commission depicted Oswald as running as fast as he could to get away from the scene. They certainly never depicted him as WALKING from the 6th floor to the 2nd floor. How utterly ridiculous.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
And Walt thinks he's going to tell me the "facts" about this matter. That's a laugh!
The Warren Commission re-created Oswald's movements (using Special Agent John Howlett)....and BOTH re-creations were done at a "walking" pace....not "running as fast as he could", as Walt seems to think.
Let's have a look:
"Howlett walked down the stairway to the second-floor landing and entered the lunchroom. The first test, run at normal walking pace, required 1 minute, 18 seconds; the second test, at a "fast walk", took 1 minute, 14 seconds." -- Warren Report; Page 152
But Walt must think the Warren Commission is full of crap there on Page 152. I guess he thinks they were lying through their collective teeth when they said "normal walking pace" and "fast walk".
~shrug~
DAVID VON PEIN ALSO SAID:
The conspiracy fantasist named Walt Cakebread has placed "cloak & dagger" crap around every single piece of evidence in the case, and around every movement made by Lee Harvey Oswald. And why has he done this? Quite simply, to keep the notion of conspiracy alive in his mind (where no "conspiracy" need exist at all).
Walt is certainly not a fan of "Occam's Razor", that's a certainty. He would prefer to muddy the fairly clean waters by adding mountains of unsupportable stuff that doesn't need to be added in order to resolve this case.
A strange hobby, to be sure.
David Von Pein
September 29—October 4, 2006
Re-posted April 4, 2026
================================
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Upon reading John Canal's footnote concerning Ken O'Donnell on Page 60 of John's book "Silencing The Lone Assassin", it only further reinforces the idea that the selection of the Trade Mart could not possibly have been conspiratorial in any way at all.
Because if Governor Connally was twisting O'Donnell's arm to get the Trade Mart approved as the luncheon site (which I think is very believable, given the newness and attractive nature of the Trade Mart vs. the less-attractive alternatives that were available), then there's no way possible that such a "Connally push" for the Trade Mart was done to promote some assassination conspiracy plot.
Or do some CTers want to actually believe the ultra-silly notion that John Connally would deliberately want to place himself in harm's way, only inches from the target of the assassins, when he would be travelling through Dealey Plaza on the way to the Trade Mart?
Not to mention the fact that O'Donnell, TOO, was right smack-dab in the middle of Elm Street (in the center of the Secret Service follow-up car) when the bullets started flying!
Is it likely that even O'Donnell would have wanted to be THAT CLOSE to the gunfire that HE, essentially, arranged (in a logistics sense) by selecting the Trade Mart and, in effect, the route the cars would take to get there?
And the idea that BOTH Kenneth O'Donnell AND John Connally conspired in some fashion to "control" some kind of conspiracy plot to kill the President is just too silly an idea for even all of the lifelong CTers to believe (or at least it should be that silly to everybody's way of thinking).
PETER FOKES SAID:
The word "arranged" is rather nebulous.
In "arranging" the trip, one would naturally assume O'Donnell was carrying out instructions.
David claims that if there was a conspiracy then O'Donnell must have been involved because he helped arranged the trip.
Of course, that premise is nonsensical.
Would it have been impossible for Oswald to fire at JFK from another building? No.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
And how many buildings did Oswald WORK IN, where he could blend in with other workers very easily and get cleared by the cops within minutes of shooting the President because he worked in that building?
BTW, I agree with an earlier post about Oswald being able to probably still kill JFK even if the limo had gone straight down Main Street instead of turning onto Elm. But that undeniably would have been a more difficult shot for sure, with the car moving faster (more than likely) and with Oswald not having the built-in Elm Street advantage of having the car slowly moving in a direct line away from his gun.
ANTHONY MARSH SAID:
Wasn't it Kenny O'Donnell who gave the order to remove the bubble top?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yep. Indeed it was.
And don't forget it was also Mr. O'Donnell who was chiefly responsible for taking JFK's dead body out of Dallas and back to Washington.
In other words -- O'Donnell is firmly fixed in MANY different places where conspiracy buffs NEED A CONSPIRATOR CONTROLLING STUFF!
And since it's obvious to even a blind rat that Mr. Kenneth P. O'Donnell was NOT on any kind of Assassination Conspiracy Payroll on November 22, 1963, how do the CTers (who need an "inside plotter" doing things and approving things that Mr. O'Donnell did and approved) explain the stuff O'Donnell did as "conspiratorial"?
Did the REAL (non-O'Donnell) plotters just GET LUCKY when O'Donnell did many things that greatly aided the conspiracy plot?
Things like:
1.) Selecting the Trade Mart as the Dallas luncheon site (with another non-plotter's major assistance, John Connally's).
2.) Ordering the bubbletop to definitely be "off that car" if the rain cleared in Dallas.
3.) And by practically bulldozing JFK's casket past Dr. Rose at Parkland Memorial Hospital.
That's called HAPPENSTANCE...not CONSPIRACY. And those things were controlled chiefly by someone who cannot possibly be painted as a "plotter".
So, either the plotters just got unbelievably lucky ALL DAY LONG on November 22nd....or: there was simply no conspiracy at all in Dallas.
PETER FOKES SAID:
Jackie could have said "Leave the body in Dallas and follow the law." Did she? No?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
And Jackie didn't say "Take JFK to Walter Reed" either, did she? So the CT after-the-shooting at-the-autopsy cover-up plot that many, many CTers advocate requires Jacqueline Kennedy to be involved too.
Or: it requires another layer of PURE LUCK for those amazing plotters. Lookie..."They" just GOT LUCKY once again when Jackie said "Bethesda".
Yes, JFK was a Navy man, so the plotters could have guessed right on this one fairly easily...but how do they "control" Jackie AND O'Donnell AND O'Brien AND Kilduff AND on and on?
How do "they" control all of these people who could have nixed a Washington autopsy at any point in time?
They just GOT LUCKY (again), right?
The horoscope for "Assassination Plotters" must have revealed this on the morning of November 22, 1963:
TODAY IS YOUR LUCKIEST OF LUCKY DAYS! GO FOR IT! NOTHING CAN STOP YOU! NOT EVEN JACKIE! NOT THE PRESIDENT'S DEVOTED STAFF! NOT JOHN CONNALLY! NOBODY! KILL THE PRESIDENT AND A PATSY WILL AUTOMATICALLY FALL INTO PERFECT PLACE!
PETER FOKES SAID:
O'Donnell was not involved in a conspiracy. The more you try to say other people think he was, the more silly your theory becomes. Your premises are all wrong.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You still don't get my main point at all, do you?
Of course O'Donnell was not part of any conspiracy. Which means, by default, that if the general type of conspiracy exists that many CTers advocate, the plotters were the luckiest bums since Lucky Lindy in '27.
PETER FOKES SAID:
If JFK wanted the bubble top to stay on, it would have stayed on. If Jackie wanted the body to remain in Dallas, it would have remained in Dallas.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Right. Which also indicates the whole day of Nov. 22 revolved around PURE HAPPENSTANCE, CHANCE, AND REGULAR ORDINARY-LIKE DECISIONS.
I.E.: Nothing is being "controlled" by any evil forces on Nov. 22. Jackie, O'Donnell, O'Brien, and Connally prove that to be the case.
Are you starting to get the whole drift of my "Happenstance" thread now?
If anyone is to believe anything in Oliver Stone's movie, or if they believe anything uttered by Jim Garrison, then they have no choice but to believe one of the following two things:
1.) Ken O'Donnell and John Connally and Jackie Kennedy must have been part of the plot too.
Or:
2.) The plotters who were orchestrating the "Let's Kill JFK And Blame Everything On Oswald" plot were the luckiest assassins/plotters on the planet when the three above-named individuals did things that made that patsy plot succeed to absolute perfection.
PETER FOKES SAID:
Trouble is NO ONE believes what you say they believe, nor is it necessary for them to believe what you say they believe to believe in a conspiracy.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Depends on how deep into Absurdville a CTer wants to go. If a conspiracy believer is in bed with Garrison or Groden or Stone (and a whole bunch of them are), then YES, such a CTer must believe in one of the two options I offered above.
If you're in a conspiracy camp of a less-kooky nature, then you're correct. (But not by much really.)
But when I talk about "CTers", I have a habit of aiming my comments at the more extreme fantasists within that faction. It's a habit that's hard to break.
And since many people I've talked with do sincerely believe that Oliver Stone's "Triangulation Of Crossfire" craziness is the Gospel when it comes to the shooting scenario in Dealey Plaza...I tend, therefore, to aim my comments at them more than the conspiracists who possess the following mindset....
Oswald Was A Shooter, But I Still Think There Was A Conspiracy Even Though I Have No Bullets Or Other Hard Evidence To Support That Belief.
PETER FOKES SAID:
No one needs O'Donnell to do anything. At any time, his "arrangements" could have been altered by JFK or Jackie.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Which is proving my MAIN POINT all the more, Peter.
Thanks.
PETER FOKES SAID:
You mean when JFK wanted the bubbletop removed? You mean when Jackie agreed to the moving of her husband's body?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
More proving of my main "Happenstance, Not Conspiracy" point.
Thanks again.
PETER FOKES SAID:
The Trade Mart has nothing to do with the conspiracy.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Sure it does. (Per Stone's "Triangulation on Elm St." crap anyway.)
If the limo wasn't headed to the Trade Mart, that Elm Street turn would never have occurred...and Stone's/Garrison's whole PRE-PLANNED "Blame It On The Patsy In The TSBD" and "Triangulation" theories are shot down right there.
Garrison/Stone (and those who prop them up) definitely NEED the luncheon site to be at the Trade Mart. Because they need the car on Elm. Or else the shooting is much more difficult.
PETER FOKES SAID:
I hope Bugliosi uses better logic than you are.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Do you really think that Vincent Bugliosi WON'T be mentioning something very similar in nature to what I've been saying here regarding "Pure Chance" and "Happenstance" and "Those Plotters Sure As Hell Got Lucky", etc.?
If he doesn't mention a lot of stuff like that I'll be severely disappointed...because such arguments positively need to be made (with zeal). And such arguments, all by themselves, go a long way toward debunking many of the conspiracy theories that have been offered up since '63.
In short -- Oswald shot the President mainly BECAUSE THE PERFECT OPPORTUNITY WAS AFFORDED HIM...FROM HIS OWN WORKPLACE (where he could blend in with other employees and BE CLEARED AS AN EMPLOYEE, which did occur).
The President probably lives past November 22nd if Oswald had not been hired by Roy Truly on October 15th, 1963.
YMMV concerning that last declaration. And I will readily admit that's just my own opinion. But since I know that Oswald was not suicidal in any way (he proved that several times on Nov. 22; mainly on Tenth Street when he encountered Tippit), I have my doubts that he would have attempted to kill the President if he had not been employed in a tall building which he knew, days in advance, would overlook the motorcade route.
PETER FOKES SAID:
And if JFK didn't want [the] bubbletop removed?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Then he probably lives to see his 47th birthday. Or at least he's got a much better chance of reaching it anyway. Oswald might very well have shot through the bubbletop though. But it might have deflected a fatal shot. Nobody can know.
Plus: I also wonder if Oswald could have possibly known for certain whether the bubbletop was bulletproof or not. Knowledge of that important detail about the car's bubbletop roof would probably have affected his decision to shoot, if he had seen the bubbletop on the car as it approached the TSBD that day. If he thought the bubbletop was bulletproof (which it wasn't of course), there would obviously be no point in shooting at all.
PETER FOKES SAID:
And if Jackie didn't want the body moved?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Then David Lifton has to reconfigure his 700+ pages of body-stealing idiocy. And a lot of other CTers must alter their "cover-up plots" too. Because many CTers certainly have Humes, Finck, and Boswell (and other military bigshots) up to no good at Bethesda.
No worries though....those same CTers can just accuse Dr. Rose of phonying-up the autopsy, right?
PETER FOKES SAID:
JFK was dead. The plotters had no need to worry about an autopsy.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Even within the Oliver Stone/Jim Garrison patsy plot, eh?? (Which is a plot that a huge number of people actually believe in.)
LOL. This is a riot.
Per the Stone crowd, assassins fire 6 shots at the President (all of which COULD have hit JFK, of course, from varying angles/ directions)...and then "they" try to blame the whole nine yards (6 shots) on Lee Harvey Oswald by planting only THREE bullet shells and firing the 6 shots so close together that there's no way in hell that all of those shots could all have been fired by the resident "Patsy For All 11/22/63 Murders".
And yet Peter F. has this to say: "The plotters had no need to worry about an autopsy."
Yeah, that's right. The plotters just had a feeling that all of the autopsists would hide the bullets and cover up everything that looked like a frontal shot, right? The plotters just had a INKLING that the U.S. Government would be wanting to frame the very same lone patsy that the pre-arranging plotters were attempting to frame.
~~Awaiting Pete's or Tony's proverbial "Not my theory" response~~
But, of course, I don't care if it's particularly YOUR theory or not. I was talking about the people who DO buy into Ollie Stone's fairy tale...which is a very large number of people.
And THAT type of plot requires a good deal of pre-planning....some of which was done by John Connally (who was almost killed himself on 11/22 and who was responsible for approving ANY motorcade through Dallas in the first place) and Kenneth O'Donnell.
So, more lucky breaks for the plotters. Their luck never ran out. And it still hasn't, as long as people continue to prop up Stone's film (or similar nutty theories) as the truth of 11/22/63.
PETER FOKES SAID:
A conspiracy depends on certain factors occurring in ADVANCE of the attempted assassination. If they don't, the assassination does not occur.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Once again, you're proving my main point for me. Some of the important "IN ADVANCE" stuff was done by people like Connally and O'Donnell. And since nobody paints them as plotters...where do the CTers go from there?
Do you get it now?
-------------------------------
DVP Addendum.....
Just name any location on the "JFK Assassination Map" (so to speak), and I'll give you the names of at least two people (plus the wealth of associated "lone assassin" evidence that comes from said locality) who debunk the notion that any conspiracy theory or cover-up plot could have occurred from such a location....including all of Dealey Plaza, the TSBD, Tenth Street, Parkland, Bethesda, the DPD, and right on in to the places where the Warren Commission assembled and/or questioned witnesses.
There are conspiracy-refuting people in all of those locales, including the previously mentioned Kennedy aides (plus Governor Connally), whose actions and decisions PRIOR to November 22 would have made it virtually impossible for the kind of conspiracy plot that many CTers advocate to have been pulled off in the first place.
The only type of "conspiracy" that cannot be thoroughly trashed is the type that would have involved JUST OSWALD as the lone shooter in Dealey Plaza and on 10th Street (which he so obviously was) and the aid of one or more behind-the-scenes co-plotters who encouraged Oswald or (in some small way) helped him to reach his ultimate goal of killing John F. Kennedy.
But even THAT type of smaller "JUST OSWALD AND ONE OTHER PLOTTER WHO NEVER PICKED UP A GUN" conspiracy is very, very unlikely...and for an obvious reason. That reason being: Oswald's SOLO-LIKE actions following the assassination of JFK.
If LHO had had "help" of some kind, where was that other plotter when Lee Harvey Oswald needed him most -- i.e., just after Oswald shot the President and needed a getaway driver fast?
In short, just about the only location where a JFK conspiracy cannot be almost totally debunked is in a RABID CONSPIRACIST'S MIND. That fertile "Conspiracy" ground can probably never be exorcised of its conspiracy-tinged demons.
David Von Pein
April 28—May 1, 2007
May 1, 2007
Re-posted April 4, 2026
