MICHAEL WALTON SAID:
If people opened up their eyes, they would see that the Z film was the single biggest case proving conspiracy. The shot timing alone, where Kennedy reacts to a throat shot, then a back shot, and Connally not reacting until seconds later, demolishes the SBT. Then of course JBC himself stuck with his statement until the day he died that he was NOT hit with the same bullet that hit JFK. It's why the government suppressed the film until '75.
But no - the crazies have just got to think it's more - the painted-in frames and all of the other ridiculous nonsense.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
It would appear by the above wholly inaccurate statement ["Connally not reacting until seconds later"] that you, Michael, have never bothered to properly examine Zapruder frames 224 through 230. John Connally does plenty of "reacting" prior to the "seconds later" interpretation you falsely place on the event (as I demonstrate quite clearly at the webpage linked below)....
REPLAY....
MICHAEL WALTON SAID:
JBC...stuck with his statement until the day he died that he was NOT hit with the same bullet that hit JFK.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
But Governor Connally, in 1967, DID concede that the Single-Bullet Theory was possible. But, naturally, no conspiracy theorist on Planet Earth would ever want to post this video of Connally saying the SBT is "possible":
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
John Connally was one of the best and most adamant witnesses against the fraud of the Warren Report. When asked if he thought Oswald fired the rifle that killed Kennedy, this was his reply:
"Absolutely not. I do not, for one second, believe the conclusions of the Warren Commission." (Into the Nightmare, by Joe McBride, p.418)
Does it get any better than that?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Let's see what John Connally was saying in 1966....
JOHN B. CONNALLY (NOV. 23, 1966) -- "I want to make it very clear, however, that simply because I disagree with the Warren Commission on this one detail [the SBT] does not mean that I disagree with the substance of their overall findings. I think the Commission did an outstanding job under very difficult circumstances."
REPORTER -- "Are you satisfied beyond any shadow of a doubt that there was one and only one assassin?"
JOHN CONNALLY -- "I have no reason to question it whatsoever. I'm satisfied beyond any doubt that there was only one. .... We should turn our attention to doing a little research on, and evaluation of, the credentials of the self-appointed experts, who, with no evidence, no new facts, nevertheless use distortion, inference, innuendo, in order to cast doubts and create confusion."
Hear Connally say the above words in the video below:
More John Connally interviews and statements:
David Von Pein
January 22-23, 2017
================================
CHRIS SAID:
There is complete incontrovertible proof that the SBT doesn't exist. That proof occurred when the prosectors began to examine the body after the X-ray technician saw a bullet fall from the back of JFK.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Boy, what a crock of crap!
"Saw a bullet fall from the back of JFK"? And yet not a single one of the autopsy surgeons noticed this or put it in their report or told the Warren Commission about it? Yeah, right. You must be kidding. (Although I know you're dead serious, incredibly.)
CHRIS SAID:
The bullet that hit in the upper back [of JFK] penetrated only an inch or so, and did NOT go past that point. There was NO tearing or puncture past the pleura, the covering of the lungs.
So the bullet hit and didn't really penetrate, and fell out, then they found that the bullet had NOT gone past the pleura, which is only an inch into the body.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Both the pleural cavity and the right lung were bruised by the passage of
the bullet through the body. (WCR, p.542)
You think a bullet that just stopped dead in JFK's body, without actually striking any vital structures, would have caused the bruising seen in Kennedy's upper body (pleura and lung)?
And what about the shirt fibers which were pointing outward at the front of JFK's shirt? Did somebody deliberately turn the fibers from INWARD to OUTWARD in order to fool everybody and perpetuate a cover-up?
And please tell us the likelihood of TWO separate bullets entering John Kennedy's upper body (hitting only soft tissue remember!) and having both of those bullets failing to exit the body --- and THEN having BOTH of those bullets falling out of JFK's body and getting lost. That's fantasy talk there.
Time to get real and face the truth, Chris. The SBT wins in every conceivable way. In fact, it's not even a close call.
David Von Pein
January 16, 2017
================================
BUD SAID:
This statement by Ben [Holmes] remains a lie...
"The Zapruder film does NOT show that JFK and JBC were hit by the same bullet. It quite clearly shows Connally reacting several seconds LATER than JFK."
I expect everyone reading that that knows anything about the case recognizes that this is just untrue.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Correct, Bud. This part of Ben's statement is not only untrue, it's laughably untrue (for anybody who has at least one eyeball to see through):
"The Zapruder film...quite clearly shows Connally reacting several seconds LATER than JFK."
I have yet to figure out WHY the conspiracy nuts just simply REFUSE to acknowledge all of the "reacting" that Governor John B. Connally is exhibiting between Zapruder frames 224 and circa 230 (take a look at the clips here to see just how absurd Ben Holmes' statement truly is).
Now, I know the CT clowns can easily see the same "reactions" I'm seeing in the Z-Film, but they just will not acknowledge those reactions. Bizarre CTer behavior. But, I guess such denial is to be expected by now from the hardline anti-SBTers.
BEN HOLMES SAID:
Tell us David...
1. Did the Warren Commission argue for a "delayed reaction" on the part of Connally.
2. Did believers for many years follow suit, and do the same?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
1. Oh, sure. The "delayed reaction" thing has been argued by many people, including the Warren Commission. But the WC wasn't exactly sure WHEN Kennedy and Connally were hit. That's why they bracketed the SBT as being somewhere between Z210 and Z225. (You know that, of course.)
Plus, we've got better (digital) ways to examine the individual frames of the film nowadays. These quick toggling methods of viewing the frames were not available to the Warren Commission in 1964, which made it much more difficult to examine the film and hunt for hints of any "reactions" on the part of JFK or Governor Connally.
2. Sure they have. Including Vincent Bugliosi in his book....
"Since we know people can react to being struck by a bullet literally hundreds of seconds after the fact, then certainly either Kennedy or Connally could have reacted a second or so after being shot." -- Vince Bugliosi; Page 466 of "Reclaiming History"
But! Vince also says this just one page later....
"The essence of what I'm saying is that determining the timing and number of shots (or the validity or invalidity of the single-bullet theory) by only analyzing the Zapruder film is really like an existential discussion about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin (i.e., it's more of an intellectual exercise than anything else). Fortunately, since we have other more reliable evidence, we are not hostage to, nor bound by, whatever results this exercise produces." -- Vince Bugliosi; Page 467 of "RH"
I would guess that some of the people who have in the past argued in favor of a "delayed reaction" on the part of John Connally might very well have changed their minds about that (at least as far as Connally's INVOLUNTARY movements and "reactions" as seen in the Zapruder Film) after they had a chance to watch some of the isolated (repeating) clips from the film which quite clearly indicate that Governor Connally was involuntarily reacting to an external stimulus (i.e., a bullet) just an instant after Zapruder frame #224. I just don't see how such an involuntary reaction by Connally at that point on the film can be denied---or ignored.
BEN HOLMES SAID:
You're now on record as claiming that a major part of the Warren Commission's theory was "laughably untrue".
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Not at all. It was you, not the Warren Commission, who said that Connally didn't react until "several seconds" after JFK. The WC never said any such thing.
The Warren Commission was smart to BRACKET the SBT shot, utilizing a 16-frame (inclusive) timespan that the bullet could have struck both Kennedy and Connally (Z210-Z225). And they got it right too, IMO. I think the bullet struck at Z224, which is right there within that timespan the Warren Commission used. They did a fine job (without feeling any need to fine-tune it down to a single frame). I think that was excellent on their part.
But I'm now having difficulty in locating a specific reference in the Warren Report where they talk about any "delayed reaction" on Governor Connally's part as it relates specifically to the Zapruder Film itself. On Page 112 of the Warren Commission's Final Report, the Commission does talk about a possible "delayed reaction" by Connally, but that reference is not talking about any examination of the Z-Film. Instead, it is referring only to a possible explanation for how the first shot could have struck Connally, but JBC just didn't feel the impact, and therefore experienced a delayed reaction. But this had nothing to do with any analysis of the Zapruder Film.
There might very well be some reference by the WC to a Connally "delayed reaction" as it relates to an analysis of the Zapruder Film somewhere in the Warren Report (or in the testimony of some of the witnesses), but I haven't found it today via a quick search.
Can you find such a reference in the WCR, Ben? If so, please post the link to it. [Note -- Ben never provided a link. However, a little later on, I myself did find some references to JFK's and Connally's "reaction times" in the Warren Commission testimony of FBI agent Lyndal Shaneyfelt (at 5 H 154-158). It's not exactly testimony dealing directly with the topic of "delayed reactions", but it comes pretty close to it.]
In any event, Ben's previous comment about there being "several seconds" between the reactions of JFK and John Connally in the Z-Film remains what it was a few hours ago—absurd and untrue.
BEN HOLMES SAID:
Of course, the elephant in the room is the massive involuntary reaction by Connally seen starting at Z-237.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
But there's an even bigger (and more important) elephant in the same room....and that is when John Connally is seen reacting involuntarily to an external stimulus between Z224 and about Z229.
If Ben was an honest fellow who was capable of reasonably evaluating the things we see in Abraham Zapruder's home movie (which he isn't, of course), he would just come out and admit right now that these involuntary movements on the part of John B. Connally were caused by a bullet that has just passed through his upper torso:
Let's hear Ben's "anti-SBT" excuses for all of that flinching and grimacing and mouth opening and arm raising and lapel flipping and necktie scrunching that we see happening with Governor Connally in those Z-Film clips presented above.
BEN HOLMES SAID:
You are, of course, imagining things.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yeah, I guess Governor Connally just decided he wanted to flip his right arm in the air at Z226, which just happens to be the same right arm/wrist that is (amazingly) going to be hit by a bullet in another second or so (according to CTers).
Wouldn't you call that a rather extraordinary coincidence, Ben?
BEN HOLMES SAID:
Why is it that you cannot address the obvious and clear reaction [of Governor Connally] starting at Z-237?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Connally's reactions don't START at Z237. What you're seeing in Z237 is a CONTINUATION of the reactions that started back at Z224-225. And the movements we see at about Z237-238 are more accentuated and more noticeable at that time because many of those movements are becoming VOLUNTARY on Gov. Connally's behalf (vs. just being subtle, involuntary movements).
BEN HOLMES SAID:
Why is it that you can't admit that Connally himself pointed to this [Z230s] section of the extant Zapruder film?
Do you believe you know better than Gov. Connally?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Oh yes, I do. And that's because I'm pretty sure Governor Connally never had a chance to see the very good repeating Z-Film clips that we all have access to today.
If I could have shown Mr. Connally the Zapruder Film clips presented on my various webpages and websites, I'm fairly certain I could have convinced him that the Single-Bullet Theory is the truth.
BEN HOLMES SAID:
And [you are] remaining absolutely silent on what the Warren Commission clearly accepted... a reaction occurring starting at Z-237.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Sure, around Z237 might have been when the Warren Commission first saw signs of Connally reacting. But, as I said previously, the WC didn't have all the tools we have today for examining the film in a toggling frame-by-frame format. Therefore, yes, they missed seeing the signs of Governor Connally being hit at circa Z224.
But, as I also mentioned previously, the Commission DID end up getting the SBT timing right --- because Z224 does fall within the range of Z-Film frames the Warren Commission utilized for its SBT timespan.
BEN HOLMES SAID:
You're claiming what are CLEARLY involuntary reactions to be voluntary!!!? That's certainly a new lie on your part.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
~sigh~
I said Connally's reactions at circa Z237 were "becoming voluntary". I.E., some of the movements we see are "voluntary" and some of them are still "involuntary" (like the puffed cheeks).
You think Connally turning sharply to his right is an INVOLUNTARY action on JBC's behalf?
BEN HOLMES SAID:
I'm quite sure he [Gov. Connally] was given every opportunity to view the film time and time again.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You really think John Connally got a chance to see the Z-Film clips in the steady, toggling, repetitive form that I display on my websites? Really? (He died in June of 1993, keep in mind. That was before we had PCs in all our homes.)
BEN HOLMES SAID:
Which side of [John Connally's] wrist did the bullet enter? The palm side? Or the back of the hand side? ....
Be sure to cite if you try to lie about it.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
The Warren Commission and the HSCA had no problem at all with Connally's wrist injury being caused by CE399 after that bullet had exited JFK's throat.
So, should I believe the experts who testified for the WC and HSCA? Or should I place my faith in some guy on the Internet named Ben?
Not a tough call. Sorry, Benji.
BEN HOLMES SAID:
You get caught lying all the time, and I'm sure that cannot be a very pleasant experience.
You're slicker in your lies than "Bud" is, but they're still there.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I haven't told a single "lie", Ben. And you know it. So why not cut the "You're a liar" crap. It got old years ago.
David Von Pein
January 24-25, 2017
================================
DAVID JOSEPHS SAID ALL THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I could spend all day debunking all the conspiracy myths presented in that post linked above written by Mr. David Josephs. But right now, I'll just deal with the following three items....
"Why doesn't the shot thru the back [in the 2004 documentary "JFK: Beyond The Magic Bullet"] exit the mannequin's throat as opposed to his pectoral muscle?"
Well, for one thing, the bullet entered the JFK mock torso too low. So, naturally, it's going to exit "too low" as well, and it did.
But nobody is ever going to be able to duplicate the SBT shot with 100% pinpoint accuracy. We'd need to dig up both John Kennedy and John Connally in order to do that. But I think the Discovery Channel people in Australia did a pretty good job of simulating the general path of Bullet CE399 in their 2004 documentary program. All CTers disagree (naturally). But there's nothing new about that. CTers probably wouldn't be satisfied if JFK and Connally WERE dug up and used for a re-creation of the SBT.
More here.
--------------------------
"Why does [Gerald] Ford insist on moving the entry to a point where there is no medical evidence offered to corroborate that change?"
Jean Davison came up with a very logical and reasonable explanation for why Gerald Ford performed his on-paper "move":
"I doubt that Ford, for one, knew the exact location of the back/neck wound. I think he recognized that the sentence as written couldn't possibly be right since there's nothing "in the back slightly above the shoulders." By definition, above the shoulders is "neck." Ford tried to correct it and made matters worse. One thing I feel certain of is that there was no rational motive for anyone to "raise" the back wound. Moving it to the neck doesn't support the SBT, no matter what suspicion may tell you. An entry in the neck would destroy the SBT trajectory. .... Imo, it often seems that CTs don't allow for human error or Murphy's law or Hanlon's razor ("Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity [or incompetence].")" -- Jean Davison; Dec. 5, 2014
More here.
--------------------------
"The fragments left in JC [John Connally] add up to more lead missing from ce399."
The above statement made by David Josephs is just simply not correct. Here's why.
DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:
The fact of the matter is we are talking about CE399 as having performed some amazing feat when the evidence offered shows it does not exist until Rowley hands it to Todd.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Why on Earth are you claiming the bullet "does not exist until Rowley hands it to Todd"?
The stretcher bullet has a very definite, clear, and distinct chain (with respect to each man in the "chain" being able to confirm that he received a single whole bullet from the previous man in the chain), beginning with Darrell Tomlinson finding the bullet at Parkland Hospital around 1:30 PM CST on 11/22/63.
Tomlinson gives the bullet to O.P. Wright, with Wright then giving it to Secret Service agent Richard Johnsen, who carries it from Dallas to Washington on Air Force One.
SA Johnsen then writes this memo after getting back to the White House on the night of November 22, confirming that he received the bullet he carried to Washington from O.P. Wright at Parkland Hospital.
Johnsen must have then stapled that memo to this envelope, which is the envelope that Johnsen put the bullet into before giving it to Secret Service chief James Rowley. (Note the staple hole in the memo [but not a staple itself], and the metal staples which still seem to be attached to the envelope.)
Per Elmer Todd's writing on the envelope, Rowley then passes the envelope (containing the stretcher bullet) on to Todd of the FBI, with Todd then taking the envelope containing the bullet to the FBI laboratory in Washington and giving it to Robert A. Frazier. Todd and Frazier then both scratch their initials into the nose of the bullet. The documentation for this last part of the bullet's journey and the etching of Todd's and Frazier's initials into the bullet is Elmer Todd's FD-302 report in Commission Document No. 7.
Throughout this process of handing off the bullet from one man to the next on November 22nd, there is no indication that more than just one single bullet is being handled. None of these men (Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen, Rowley, Todd, and Frazier) ever said, as far as I know, that they had handled two different whole bullets in connection with the JFK case. Which means, if we're to believe some of the conspiracy theorists, that one or more of those men told some lies after the assassination.
I guess you, David Josephs, think the bullet that Tomlinson found on a stretcher at Parkland was not CE399, but instead was a different bullet entirely. Right? Well, if you want to believe that, fine. You're not alone if you believe that, of course. Nearly all Internet conspiracists think there's something fishy about CE399. But since I've been totally convinced of Lee Harvey Oswald's lone guilt for quite a number of years now (based on a whole bunch of evidence, and not just CE399), I have chosen not to travel down the "Bullet Was Planted Or Substituted" road. Call me naive if you so desire. But I choose not to go down the rocky road of evidence tampering.
Related quote....
"Conspiracy theorists will, of course, argue that the "chain" shown above is still extremely weak and that it doesn't constitute a "chain" of custody at all--particularly since the Johnsen typewritten note is not signed with his handwritten signature or initials and is not still physically attached to the envelope that contains Todd's remarks about receiving the bullet from Rowley.
So, yes, maybe this issue about the chain of possession of the bullet will always provide fertile ground for continued debate and argument. It seems quite obvious that it will. No issue in this case seems to ever go unchallenged by conspiracists, even the ones that have been thoroughly debunked by lone-assassin proponents over the years.
But if a person digs into the records deep enough, that person can and will find documentation to support the idea, which is totally foreign to most conspiracy theorists, that Bullet CE399 was the bullet that made its way from Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas to the FBI laboratory in Washington on November 22, 1963." -- DVP; Pages 419-420 of "Beyond Reasonable Doubt: The Warren Report And Lee Harvey Oswald's Guilt And Motive 50 Years On"
DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:
Please notice...how DVP stays away from the 7:30 versus 8:50pm time conflict.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Okay, there's a time conflict. But where do conspiracists want to go with this conflict?
Are CTers saying that the "real" (non-CE399) stretcher bullet was being passed from one person to another at one of those two times (either 7:30 PM or 8:50 PM on 11/22/63, Washington time)? And that the bullet from Lee Oswald's rifle which became "CE399" was transferred from one person to another at the other of the two times in question?
But if the "CE399" bullet was actually a bullet involved in either a 7:30 PM transfer or an 8:50 PM transfer, and if CE399 wasn't really the bullet that Richard Johnsen carried to Washington on Air Force One and was merely used as a "substitute" bullet to replace the "real" bullet that Darrell Tomlinson found on a stretcher (as many conspiracists believe was the case), then how did the FBI (or the Secret Service) manage to get that bullet to Washington by either of those two times?
Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano C2766 rifle, which we know is the rifle that fired Bullet CE399 since it is the only gun in the world capable of firing that bullet, was still in Dallas at 7:30 EST and 8:50 EST. The gun wasn't taken out of Dallas until about 11:45 PM CST on November 22. So did the Government just happen to have a bullet from Lee Oswald's rifle in their possession several hours before the gun ever departed Dallas, Texas?
Or do conspiracy believers think that two other (non-CE399) whole bullets, which were both somehow involved with the wounding of President Kennedy and Governor Connally, were being handled by various people in Washington, D.C., at 7:30 and 8:50? Which would mean, of course, that somebody would have had to transport those two additional whole bullets from Dallas to Washington on November 22. And then, sometime later, the evil Government deep-sixed both of those non-CE399 bullets and replaced them with only Commission Exhibit No. 399 in order to frame Lee Harvey Oswald as the lone assassin. It's an utterly ridiculous scenario.
But I guess some (or maybe most) CTers must, indeed, believe such unsupportable nonsense about multiple non-CE399 bullets being handled by authorities in Washington on 11/22/63. Otherwise, what's the point of even bringing up the 7:30 vs. 8:50 time discrepancy?
So why don't conspiracy theorists just admit that the "7:30/8:50" time discrepancy was merely an innocent clerical error or mix-up of some kind? Because that is quite obviously what it was.
Related discussion from 2010....
JIM DiEUGENIO SAID:
[Robert] Frazier composed a document entitled "History of Evidence". On the top line he wrote that he received the bullet from [Elmer] Todd at 7:30 PM. And Frazier wrote another document. It was called "Laboratory Work Sheet". This also certifies that he got the bullet from Todd at 7:30. It describes it as "Bullet from Stretcher". .... Todd wrote down the time as 8:50 PM. Question for the Prosecutor: How could Todd have given CE 399 to Frazier before he got it from Rowley?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
A big problem here with DiEugenio's theory about the stretcher bullet is this: The Mannlicher-Carcano rifle which fired Bullet CE399 was not yet in the possession of the FBI in Washington as of EITHER ONE of the two times noted in the official reports (7:30 PM EST or 8:50 PM EST).
[...]
So, does Jim DiEugenio think the FBI in Washington had possession of Oswald's C2766 Carcano rifle at some time PRIOR to 11:45 PM CST on Friday? Because if they didn't have possession of that gun at an earlier time, then how could Robert Frazier have taken possession (and marked with his initials) a "fake" or "substitute" bullet that was fired BY THE FBI in that exact rifle PRIOR to 11:45 PM on Friday?
Or, as an alternative, I suppose DiEugenio could always say that the FBI's Robert Frazier was a liar too, with Frazier only pretending to receive (and mark) CE399 at a time that was much earlier than when the FBI gained possession of Oswald's rifle.
But if Frazier and the FBI as a whole were liars about the entire CE399 affair -- then why didn't they merely fudge the paperwork to eliminate the time discrepancy regarding the stretcher bullet?
Silly plotters indeed. But Jim DiEugenio is even sillier to believe the cloak-and-dagger nonsense he says he believes concerning the FBI and Warren Commission Exhibit No. 399.
Also See:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/The Secret Service & CE399
David Von Pein
January 26, 2017
