DAVID HEALY SAID:
Do you have "proof" LHO was at the 6th floor, TSBD window, Nov 22nd 1963, 12:30 PM? Let's start there hon.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Of course. The proof has been on the table since 1963-1964. You just refuse to accept the obvious, honey lamb.
WILLIAM KELLY SAID:
Okay David,
Convince me Oswald was on the Sixth Floor at 12:30 PM 11/22/63.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
If you can't figure out that easy one, Bill, then I feel sorry for you.
1.) Oswald's prints are on rifle #C2766.
2.) Rifle C2766 killed JFK.
3.) Oswald was in the building at the time when HIS OWN RIFLE (C2766) was being used by someone to kill JFK from the sixth floor of the Book Depository.
4.) Oswald's prints were on an EMPTY PAPER BAG found in the same area where someone was using Rifle C2766 to kill JFK.
5.) Oswald's fresh prints were on two boxes that were located DEEP WITHIN THE SNIPER'S NEST on the sixth floor.
6.) An eyewitness made a (post-11/22) positive identification of Lee Harvey Oswald as the assassin in the sixth-floor corner window of the Depository.
And there is lots of additional circumstantial evidence that indicates the fact that Lee Oswald killed John Kennedy, including not only the Tippit murder (which was, of course, committed by the same man whom you aren't convinced killed JFK).
A piece of circumstantial evidence that is rarely discussed when it comes to talking about things Oswald did that would certainly lead to the idea of his guilt and not innocence is the following evidence (which was corroborated by multiple TSBD employees--and not just Charles Givens):
Lee Oswald was attempting to get an elevator sent back up to him on the SIXTH FLOOR of the Book Depository within only about a half-hour of the President being murdered from that very same SIXTH FLOOR of that building.
Now, that piece of evidence (if we can call it "evidence") doesn't prove Oswald to be guilty of shooting the President, no. But it does, in my opinion, show Oswald's desire to "control" one of those two freight elevators at about 12:00 on November 22.
He very likely wanted to do two things by having the elevator sent back up to him (which it never was, per the available testimony from witnesses): He wanted to lock that elevator on the sixth floor, thus shutting down one of the elevators during an important time after the noon hour when he (LHO) was making his plans to shoot Kennedy.
And, number two, he likely wanted to be able to use that same elevator as a quick means of escape after firing his shots at the President.
Let me ask you this Bill -- Don't you find Oswald's request to have an elevator sent back up to him on the sixth floor a little bit of an odd request if Oswald merely was going through an ordinary day at work?
In other words, why didn't he simply go downstairs with the other employees during the elevator race at about 11:50 AM?
And why did he then not go downstairs with Charlie Givens at approximately 11:55 AM when Givens came back up to the sixth floor to retrieve his cigarettes from his jacket?
Oswald had TWO opportunities to go to lunch just before 12:00 noon that day--but he did not do it. Instead, he STAYED UPSTAIRS ON THE SIXTH FLOOR.
Why do you think he did that, Bill?
Was he really so anxious to fill those book orders that he had on his clipboard?
And those were book orders, btw, that HE NEVER DID FILL, which is another important point in this dicussion, in my opinion. For, if he merely was delaying going to lunch with the other boys at 11:50 and 11:55 AM in order to do more work, then the question should be asked: Why didn't he do that work?
There were multiple unfilled orders attached to his clipboard when that clipboard was discovered in early December 1963 (and it was found in a location, btw, that was right next to where the C2766 rifle was stashed after the shooting).
Now, Bill, just exactly how much more stuff would you require in order for you to be willing to hang a "Guilty" tag around the neck of Lee H. Oswald?
RAY MITCHAM SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
So? What's your point, Ray?
Do you think that Bonnie Ray Williams' "elevator" testimony actually HELPS your (conspiracy) side? How does it do that?
RAY MITCHAM SAID:
"He very likely....."
"He likely wanted....."
And you call this evidence?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
With respect to trying to read Lee Oswald's mind, all I (or anyone else) can do now is speculate, Ray.
What else can anybody do when trying to piece together the things that were going through LHO's head on 11/22? All we can do is guess.
RAY MITCHAM SAID:
He [Oswald] didn't control them [the freight elevators] very well if Dougherty was able to descend to the first floor to ask who caused the shots.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Of course he didn't. That's because Givens didn't do what he told Oswald he was going to do---send the elevator back up to the sixth floor.
How was Oswald going to control that elevator if nobody sent it back up to him?
(Duh.)
RAY MITCHAM SAID:
You believe Givens when he said he went back upstairs to get his cigarettes?
You are more gullible than I thought.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Re: Charlie Givens....
jfk-archives.blogspot.com/search=Charles+Givens+Cigarettes
RAY MITCHAM SAID:
DVP said: "And why did he then not go downstairs with Charlie Givens at approximately 11:55 AM when Givens came back up to the sixth floor to retrieve his cigarettes from his jacket."
Givens went upstairs to get cigarettes from a non existent jacket?
Mr. BELIN. Did you wear a jacket to work that day?
Mr. GIVENS. I wore a raincoat, I believe. It was misting that morning.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hang up your coat in that [the domino] room, too?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
In his first day affidavit, Givens mentions nothing about going up to the sixth floor to get his cigarettes.
You have to have a good memory if you want to lie.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
And so you think that Givens' coat could not possibly have been moved from one floor to another during the course of the morning on November 22nd?
Perhaps this scenario occurred after Givens originally hung up his coat/jacket in the Domino Room on the first floor (and, yes, I'm just guessing again) --- When he realized he would be working all day long on just one floor (to fix the plywood floor on the sixth floor), perhaps he decided to take his jacket (with his cigarettes in the pocket) up to the sixth floor.
LANCE PAYETTE SAID:
If LHO did hang around alone on the 6th floor when others were going to lunch, on the day of a Presidential assassination of all things, that is indeed highly suspicious. I was thinking last night, however, that LHO's "escape" (the bus, the taxi, being let out down the street from his apartment, retrieving a gun you would think an assassin would have had in his pocket all the time, sneaking into the theater) is to me almost the "smoking gun" regarding his role. His actions are just so utterly bizarre that if he were a Lone Nut this would have had to have been the most poorly organized, impromptu, unplanned assassination in history.
I truly cannot conceive of any scenario where what LHO did after the assassination makes any sense if he were a Lone Nut. His actions strike me as more consistent with someone who is thinking, "Good God, what has just happened? What sort of mess am I caught up in? I have been hung out to dry and now have to fend for myself." On the other hand, it is invariably true that even when we absolutely know the truth about an event, there are always pieces that just don't fit.
But you [DVP] do make a fair point. Conspiracy Theorists do indeed treat the assassination as though they were dissecting a frog in high school biology class and examining his innards with a microscope, without regard to the reality that Mr. Frog was once a living creature. The TSBD employees, from Truly on down, were a bunch of unsophisticated average Joes. The Dallas police were a bunch of unsophisticated average Joes.
The event was one of the most traumatic, chaotic events in American history. Yet, more than 50 years later those who desperately want there to be a conspiracy parse every sentence of every statement, choose those that fit their pet theory and dismiss all the others as intentional lies, elevate every time discrepancy to massive importance, assign dark motives to everyone, and elevate average Joes to the status of diabolical intelligence operatives engaged in a massive conspiracy, and explain away the best evidence we actually do have as being fabricated or altered.
Although I am not a committed Lone Nutter, I can certainly see the near-insanity that makes the conspiracy community more of a laughingstock than the Academy it thinks of itself as being.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Good post, Lance. Thanks.
Regarding Oswald's "bizarre" actions on Nov. 22.....
WILLIAM KELLY SAID:
So Dave,
Why do you think Oswald had Whaley drive him FIVE blocks past his rooming house, so then he had to walk back?
DVP SAID (ON AUGUST 21, 2010):
Simple, Bill. The reason was very likely two-fold on Oswald's part:
LHO didn't want the cab driver to know exactly where he lived. And #2 (which is even a better reason IMO), he wanted to see if any police or strangers were lurking near 1026 Beckley. After all, he had just killed the President, and he had to know that the cops would be hot on his trail very soon.
Yes, he could, of course, have checked the immediate area around his roominghouse for cop cars and "strangers", etc., and then have Whaley let him out just a few yards beyond the roominghouse, which would have made the walk back to his room much shorter. But he didn't do that. And since nobody can read his mind on this issue, we'll never know for sure exactly why Oswald did all of the things he did on November 22. But we know he DID do them.
And: Oswald also knew that nobody at the TSBD had his Beckley address, so that fact would buy him some extra time to go get his revolver (and, no, I don't know why he would not have taken his Smith & Wesson revolver with him to work on 11/22; the reason there, IMO, is likely because he would have needed to take the revolver into work at the Depository Building TWICE [and transport the gun in Wes Frazier's car TWICE too], because of his unusual Thursday trip to Irving; perhaps he thought Frazier might see it and start asking questions, with Frazier possibly putting 2 & 2 together and then saying something to somebody about LHO having a gun; I really don't know).
I also think it's quite possible that Oswald just simply forgot his revolver when he left for work on Thursday, the 21st. His plan to murder JFK was, indeed, slipshod and half-assed in some ways. And it certainly reeks of being "last minute" (or nearly so, relatively-speaking).
But, hey, it's hard to argue with success, isn't it? He achieved his primary goal of killing the President, despite a slipshod getaway plan.
Too many people criticize the way Oswald did things on Nov. 21 and 22, 1963. But, as mentioned, it's hard to knock perfection. And Oswald achieved "perfection", from his point-of-view -- he assassinated the person he was attempting to assassinate.
BTW, Oswald was driven only THREE blocks past his roominghouse, Bill. Not five. LHO had Whaley drop him off in the 700 block of N. Beckley, instead of travelling all the way to the 500 block, which LHO originally told Whaley was his destination.
RAY MITCHAM SAID:
So Lovelady, Arce, and Jarman all saw Oswald "around" 11:50, and Givens saw Oswald in the domino room "about 11:50".
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yeah, that discrepancy right there should tell you something about the reliability of the times supplied by witnesses.
But since we've got FOUR different TSBD employees hearing Oswald shouting down the elevator shaft at about 11:45 or so, then I think that fact should cast just a tad bit of doubt on Givens' account of seeing Oswald sitting in the Domino Room reading a newspaper at 11:50. (Shouldn't it, Ray?)
[For more about the "11:50 discrepancy", CLICK HERE.]
RAY MITCHAM SAID:
No reply re the non existent jacket?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I don't know why you're insisting that Givens' jacket was "non-existent", Ray.
You don't allow any room for the possibility that Givens' memory could have been a little inaccurate as to what kind of "jacket" or "coat" he wore to work on November 22nd? He HAD to be lying in your view, right Ray? No other explanation is even possible, is that it?
Plus, to believe Givens was lying about a "non-existent" jacket, you'd have to also necessarily believe that Mr. Givens had a very short memory. Because just minutes before telling David Belin that he had retrieved his jacket from the sixth floor, Charlie Givens had already told Belin that he had probably worn a raincoat to work on the morning of November 22.
Another possibility is that Givens' jacket could have conceivably been left there in the Depository by Givens on some previous day. Hence, perhaps he had both a "jacket" and a "raincoat" in the TSBD on 11/22/63. Who can know for sure? I don't. But to think that Givens was lying his ass off about his jacket just in order to say he saw Oswald with a clipboard (not a rifle) on the sixth floor at 11:55 AM (35 minutes before the assassination) is akin to believing someone would be willing to lie about his whereabouts just in order to claim he saw the sun rise in the east one morning.
In other words, such an alleged lie by Givens would be completely superfluous, given the fact we already KNOW (from other witnesses) that Lee Oswald was shouting down the elevator shaft from an UPPER FLOOR of the Depository just a very few minutes before Givens said he made his jacket/cigarette trip back up to the sixth floor.
RAY MITCHAM SAID:
If he [Oswald] wanted to stay [on the sixth floor], he wouldn't have yelled for the elevator to be sent back up, IMO.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Then why didn't Oswald just go downstairs with the boys at 11:45, Ray? He certainly had no intention of doing any more work up there on the sixth floor. The three unfilled orders on his clipboard prove that (see Warren Report,
Page 143).
So why did he want to stay on the sixth floor for so long? What could he possibly be doing up there if he wasn't filling orders (which he wasn't)?
I know the answer, Ray. Why don't you?
LANCE PAYETTE SAID:
The 8-line affidavit and the FBI report are not Givens' actual words - we know essentially nothing about whether they faithfully record anything Givens' actually said. The speculation based upon those documents is, of course, even further down the chain of reliability.
RAY MITCHAM SAID:
Agreed that the 8 line affidavit are not Givens' actual words.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Why in the world are you guys saying that the words that appear in Charles Givens' 11/22/63 affidavit are "not Givens' actual words"? That's not true at all. Those are most definitely the words that Givens HIMSELF wrote down on paper on Nov. 22 (and in his own handwriting; see the original handwritten affidavit here and below). Look at all the references to "I did this" and "I did that" in this statement. If these aren't Givens' own words, then whose do you think they are?....
LANCE PAYETTE SAID:
OK, that's my error. I thought Givens had been questioned and the affidavit summarized what he had said. The Dallas PD records indicate this [Givens] affidavit was "taken" by J.R. Leavelle, whatever that is supposed to mean.
It certainly looks like someone just handed Givens a pen and said "write a quick summary of what you were doing this morning." After looking at numerous of these "affidavits," they all seem to be extremely short and cursory. So assuming these are indeed Givens' actual words, it seems to me the point remains the same - they are scarcely of any great significance vis-à-vis his subsequent testimony.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Some of the affidavits are much lengthier, however. It just depends on the witness. Buell Wesley Frazier's 11/22/63 affidavit, for example, is a longer one and extends to a second page.
I think it's quite obvious that the police told Frazier to write down more information about Lee Oswald than about Frazier's own observations concerning the assassination itself, because the vast majority of Frazier's affidavit includes stuff about Oswald and the paper bag that Lee took into the Depository, plus the "curtain rod" story, etc., with the shooting of the President being almost an afterthought.
I've archived many of the witness affidavits (in large format) at my webpage below:
David Von Pein
April 2, 2011
January 9-11, 2017
