BILL KELLY SAID:
Somebody picked up the rifle in the package at the Post Office where it was delivered to PO box 2915, but it wasn't Oswald, who was working that day at Jaggers/Chiles/Stoval [sic].
[...]
He [Oswald] was at work...on the day and the time he reportedly mailed and had postmarked the money order for the rifle - March 12, and the day it was picked up - March 25.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
We have no idea exactly what day Oswald picked up his rifle at the post office. Why are you pretending to know this type of unknowable information, Bill?
We know that Klein's shipped the rifle to Hidell/(Oswald) on March 20, 1963. And we know that Oswald had the rifle in his possession by at least Sunday, March 31, 1963 (for the backyard photo session).
But that's all we know about the precise dates (and even the March 31st date is a little bit up in the air; Marina was able to pin it down somewhat during her Warren Commission testimony, and the Commission thought that the pictures were most likely taken on 3/31/63).
So, please inform the masses, William Kelly, as to how you are privy to such detailed information about the pick-up date at the post office for Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle.
Somehow, Kelly's crystal ball is telling him things that nobody else on Planet Earth has been privy to in 46+ years. Amazing indeed.
BILL KELLY SAID:
The REALISTIC choice is that someone other than Oswald picked up the rifle and pistol at the Post Office.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Oh, sure, Bill. Sure. Even though both of those weapons were positively ORDERED BY LEE OSWALD, which means (obviously) that LEE OSWALD HIMSELF would have been expecting them to arrive at the P.O. Box that HE HAD THEM MAILED TO....you still think that it's more "realistic" to believe that "someone other than Oswald picked up the rifle and pistol at the Post Office".
Brilliant deductive reasoning there, William. Just brilliant!
So, if I order a gun from a mail-order house, and have it shipped to a P.O. Box at my local post office here in Indiana (a P.O. Box that I am renting at the time and a P.O. Box that I specified for the gun to be mailed to), according to William Kelly's logic and reasoning, it's much more likely that SOMEBODY ELSE went to the post office and picked up that gun instead of the person who ordered it and would have been expecting it to arrive at his P.O. Box within just a few days.
Gotta love CTer reasoning. It's always weird. And dead wrong. But it sure provides the humor.
BILL KELLY SAID:
Okay, Dave, I'll back off the March 25 date to pick up the rifle and pistol packages. I'm only using that date because it's the one that is used in the official chronology and generally accepted by LNs.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
What "official chronology" has "March 25" as THE EXACT DATE that Oswald picked up BOTH the rifle and pistol? I've never heard or seen such an "official chronology" in my life.
(You wouldn't be pulling stuff out of your hat, now would you Bill?)
BILL KELLY SAID:
So you acknowledge that...there is no evidence, witness or record of Oswald picking up the weapons, right?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
There's no "witness" or "record", no. To that I agree. Naturally.
But there's more than enough circumstantial evidence to establish as rock-solid FACT that Oswald did pick up Rifle C2766 from HIS OWN POST OFFICE BOX. (I emphasize those last words for a reason--because just ordinary common sense and ODDS are going to suggest that the person who ordered and paid for the rifle and pistol and had them mailed to his own P.O. Box, is probably also the person who fetched them from HIS OWN POST OFFICE BOX.)
Oswald was photographed with the Carcano within days of it being mailed to Oswald's post office box.
Does a person need to be an expert in high mathematics to figure this one out, William? I think not.
P.S. -- You're obviously a sharp man, Bill. So let me ask you this -- Why on Earth do you spend so much time trying to prove something that is so obviously stupid--i.e., the notion that Oswald himself did not pick up the rifle and pistol, even though those two items were positively ordered and paid for by LHO and were positively shipped by two separate companies to LHO's own P.O. Box?
BILL KELLY SAID:
David, I just wanted you to know that on your Ruth Paine page [Ruth-Paine.blogspot.com] you have the wrong date—11/22/63—twice of when she went into the garage on the night before the assassination and found the lights on, evidence used to indicate that Oswald went to Irving that night to pick up the rifle. That had to be 11/21/63, right?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Thank you for noticing that error, Bill. (It's nice to know that someone is actually reading some of my JFK ramblings on the Internet.)
I have corrected the mistake about the date, although I only found one such error in my Ruth Paine blog, not two. If you could point out the second error, I'll fix that one too. The one I fixed is in this passage (which has the corrected date here):
"And here we have some additional deeply-detailed data and info being revealed by way of Albert Jenner's "in Ruth's house" WC session with Mrs. Paine -- this segment of testimony dealing with the precise wattage of the light bulb that was left burning in Paine's garage on the night of 11/21/63..."
BILL KELLY SAID:
I say there is no evidence Oswald actually picked up the weapons at the Post Office, not that he didn't do it, though it is certainly a possibility that someone else did. Say Gary Taylor. His address is on the PO box application, and whoever took the note from the box and went into the back of the Post Office to pick up the packages and hand them over the counter - that person would have to give the packages to Oswald posing as Hidell, or someone else posing as Hidell, or someone with a key to the PO Box who Oswald had asked to pick up the packages - which could be done if the PO clerk just thought that if the guy had a key to the box to get the notice, he had to be okay and didn't ask for any ID.
What other possibilities are there, especially any non-conspiratorial possibilities, like Oswald at a different time, Gary Taylor - or even Marina?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Okay. But by far the MOST LIKELY answer is that the person who ordered and paid for the guns and would have been expecting those guns to arrive in late March 1963 AT HIS OWN POST OFFICE BOX is probably the person who went to the Post Office himself to pick them up.
Why bring Gary Taylor into the mix needlessly? He didn't order and pay for the rifle and the revolver. Oswald did.
BILL KELLY SAID:
I believe the back yard photos are real. I don't think the Z-film has been altered, and I don't blame the government for anything.
JFK was killed by individual human beings with names, not generic government acronym agencies.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Congrats, Bill! Welcome to the world of LNers!
Via your last comments above, it almost looks like you've been converted (except for the pluralization you utilized when you said "individual human beings with names"). There's no need for the plural to be used there, of course. Oswald was only ONE single person. Not two or more. :)
BILL KELLY SAID:
They don't really have to fake anything. All they had to do was name Oswald the suspect and kill him before they [he?] went to court.
Once JFK got to Dealey Plaza, all they had to do was kill JFK and blame Oswald, and whatever happened, happened.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
But why the need to complicate the uncomplicated, Bill?
It was OSWALD'S rifle, OSWALD'S shells, OSWALD'S bullet fragments in the limousine, OSWALD'S prints deep inside the Sniper's Nest, OSWALD'S lies that he told to the police, OSWALD left the building within minutes of the shooting, OSWALD shot Tippit, OSWALD was acting "funny" in front of Johnny Brewer's shoe store, and it was OSWALD who pulled a gun on Officer McDonald in the theater.
If those are the actions of an innocent patsy, please wake me up when sanity has been restored. Because given the above laundry list, OSWALD is as guilty as he can possibly be.
BILL KELLY SAID:
Lee Harvey Oswald was not a double-murder[er]...
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Oh, shucks! Just when Bill Kelly was making a little headway toward seeing the obvious truth, he goes and says something silly again.
BILL KELLY SAID:
The questions are whether or not Oswald was an assassin or patsy, and whether he acted alone or with others.
I can accept Oswald was the lone assassin, but if he was, I reject your profile of him being a lone nut loser, because he must have been really good to fool so many people all by himself.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I'm not quite sure what you mean here, Bill. Oswald didn't "fool" anybody. (Except perhaps a bunch of conspiracy theorists; Oswald certainly fooled them into actually believing him when he said he was "just a patsy".)
But he certainly didn't "fool" any of the authorities or investigative committees that looked into the murders. Far from it. Oswald signed his name to both of his murders by leaving his popcorn trail of evidence for both the JFK and Tippit slayings.
So, besides the gullible CTers, who was it that you think Oswald was "fooling" in November 1963?
Or are you possibly referring to Oswald being able to mask his identity as "Future Presidential Assassin" in the days/weeks/months leading up to 11/22/63? Is that what you mean by Oswald being able to "fool so many people all by himself"?
DAVID VON PEIN ALSO SAID:
What a goofy hobby CTers have.
BILL KELLY SAID:
Not a hobby, a civic duty.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You have a civic duty to embrace silly ideas?
That's weird, Bill.
BILL KELLY SAID:
And I'm not a Conspiracy Theorist.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You could've fooled me.
BILL KELLY SAID:
I hate CTs more than you do, especially those who claim the Cubans, the Mafia or the CIA is behind the assassination.
There are endless possible scenarios one can imagine, but it only happened one way, and that is what should be detected and determined.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
That's already been done -- back in '63 and '64. You just don't want to believe that the DPD, FBI, and WC got it right. You prefer your own explanations over the perfectly reasonable ones supplied by the Dallas Police, FBI, and Warren Commission.
Right, Bill?
BILL KELLY SAID:
Hi Dave,
Maybe you can answer my question. If Oswald ordered the pistol in early January, why was it shipped on March 20, the same day as the rifle, from a different company in a different city?
What was the delay, did anyone bother to find out?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I don't have a definitive answer to your question there, Bill. But I will offer up this possibility (which I think is a reasonable answer to this mystery):
I think it's quite possible that Oswald mailed the order forms for both the rifle and the revolver at about the same time--possibly mailing them on the very same day (March 12, 1963).
Just because the Seaport Traders order form [CE790] has a "January 27" date written in by Oswald, that doesn't necessarily have to mean he mailed that order form on that exact day in January. Maybe he waited and mailed it in March. We can never know for sure.
BILL KELLY SAID:
And who was the witness again, D. F. Drittle [sic]? Was he pals with A. J. Hidell?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Oh, come now, Bill. You're tugging at my lower extremities here, aren't you, you jokester you? :)
You and I both know that "D.F. Drittal" is another invented name that was created out of thin air by Lee H. Oswald. Just as "A.J. Hidell" was created out of thin air.
So, Drittal and Hidell were pals with nobody--except their inventor, Lee Harvey.
BILL KELLY SAID:
And another thing, if Oswald could have bought the pistol and the rifle with cash from any sporting goods or department store in Texas without a record, why did he buy them through the mail?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I doubt very much that Oswald could have walked into any store in Texas and bought a gun without any record being left behind. I'm pretty sure that's Conspiracy Myth #884, and is one that Oliver Stone propped up as the truth in his 1991 fantasy film too.
Just recently, Jean Davison posted some interesting information [HERE], which deals with this very subject regarding tracing guns that were purchased in brick-and-mortar stores in Texas in 1963.
As Davison mentioned, Albert Yeargan's July 1964 affidavit certainly indicates that RECORDS WERE KEPT of the sale of firearms at the H.L. Green Sporting Goods store in 1963 [see 11 H 207].
This whole topic is something that I very recently started thinking about more and more, and via Jean Davison's post linked above, it certainly looks to me as though Oliver Stone (and other CTers) have been peddling a myth regarding Texas gun shops, circa 1963.
I first brought up this topic just last month in fact, in this post (excerpted below):
"I'd like to know if conspiracists are right when they say that Oswald could have walked into any gun shop or department store in Texas in 1963 and bought a gun that could never be traced?
No paperwork was required at a gun shop in Texas in '63? No signature from the purchaser? Nothing? Just grab the gun and run?
I'm not saying that perhaps that wasn't how it worked in Texas gun stores, circa 1963, but I'm just wondering if it really was that cut-&-dried--even back in '63? I've never really ever seen that confirmed anywhere (that I can think of).
Could that be just another of the many conspiracy myths that we've been saddled with since the JFK assassination--with Oliver Stone giving it a handy push in his blockbuster movie too? I just wonder.
~~Thinking about the "Benavides' Brother" myth that was destroyed recently, with Domingo's brother really being killed in 1965, not 1964~~" -- DVP; July 21, 2010
David Von Pein
July 14, 2010
July 19, 2010
August 2, 2010
