GARRY PUFFER SAID:
There is still a massive amount of evidence for both conspiracy and cover-up in this case. Only people living in a fantasy world can assert there is not.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
It depends on your perspective and how each person evaluates the VERY SAME material.
A good recent example of that has emerged in this very thread regarding Lt. Day. You think there's something "suspicious" about the fact Lt. Day didn't want to file another signed report in September of 1964 (he, instead, preferred to let his previous report from January speak for itself).
I, however, don't find that "suspicious" at all -- particularly since I know that Lt. Day had already told the Warren Commission -- under oath! -- about how he lifted the palmprint off of the rifle. If he had already lied under oath (and you must think he did), then why would he feel any qualms about lying again in September?
The same type of logic can be applied to Bullet CE399 and the FBI reports connected with the initials that were scratched into that bullet. Many CTers think the FBI just flat-out lied in CE2011 when they said that Elmer Todd identified the bullet in June of '64 by seeing his own initials carved into the bullet. The same CTers insist that Todd's initials are not on CE399. (I disagree, of course, since Todd himself TOLD US--TWICE!--that his initials are on that bullet--in CE2011 and in Todd's own FD-302 report that appears in Commission Document #7.)
But if the FBI was willing to tell a host of bald-faced lies in their various written reports, then why on Earth didn't they simply scratch the letters "ELT" into Bullet 399? A very simple thing to do--just fake Todd's initials on the bullet.
The CTers think the FBI was so brazen that they'd tell one lie after another in their official reports that were going to be published by the Warren Commission for millions to potentially read, but this same evil FBI wouldn't dare go that extra step by scratching Todd's initials into a bullet that is ALSO nothing but a wholly fabricated lie and fake and planted bullet to begin with (per the CTers)?? Illogical.
And I'd bet the ranch Todd's initials ARE on CE399. They just can't be seen in the National Archives color photos. Simple as that. In fact, all of the initials are hard to see and discern--even the ones that ARE visible.
[2022 DVP EDIT -- Todd's initials have been discovered on the CE399 bullet. Click Here to view those initials.]
GARRY PUFFER SAID:
I can provide fifty such small examples of unreasonable speculation from your side just off the top of my head. And you could too. You know all of the evidence better than I do. You know how much unreasonable speculation is involved in making Oswald not just the assassin, but the only assassin.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
A CTer's complaints about all of these things being "planted" notwithstanding:
Oswald's rifle was found on the Floor Of Death.
Shells from Oswald's rifle were found on the same 6th floor.
A bullet from Oswald's rifle was found on Governor Connally's stretcher in the hospital.
Bullet fragments from Oswald's rifle were found in the very car where Kennedy and Connally were shot.
Oswald's prints were found on 2 boxes located deep INSIDE the Sniper's Nest where the assassin of JFK was located.
A paper bag--with 2 of LHO's prints--was found in that same sniper's lair (and at least 3 DPD officers testified to seeing it on the floor--Studebaker, Day, and Montgomery).
Fibers consistent with the blanket in the Paine garage were found in that paper bag.
Fibers consistent with Oswald's arrest shirt were found wedged under the butt plate of the rifle found on the 6th floor.
Howard Brennan, in his 1964 Warren Commission testimony, positively IDed Oswald as the assassin in the sixth-floor window.
Oswald carried a long paper package into the Book Depository on the morning of 11/22.
Oswald lied (twice) to Buell Wesley Frazier about the contents of that paper package that LHO carried with him into the TSBD on 11/22/63.
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With all due respect, in light of all that stuff I just outlined above, to think that my "Oswald Did It" conclusion is based on nothing but a huge batch of "unreasonable speculation" is just plain foolhardy (or wishful thinking on the part of the conspiracy theorists who will try and create every loophole imaginable in order to pretend Lee Oswald was innocent of murdering the 35th President).
And I didn't even mention the nice stack of evidence that proves Oswald killed a SECOND person (J.D. Tippit) on November 22nd.
Don't tell me, Garry, that you think Oswald was innocent of shooting Tippit TOO?
(Warning before you answer, Garry: My bladder is a very weak one. So please have some pity on it. The nearest bathroom is upstairs. Thanks.) :-)
GARRY PUFFER SAID:
I've said it before, but you ignored it: even if Oswald shot at and killed JFK (which I don't believe, naturally), there is nothing in your evidence to reasonably conclude that he did it alone, and there is much you have to ignore to conclude that he did. That's the biggest speculation of all.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I (naturally) totally disagree with the above assessment.
While I fully realize that it's impossible to conclusively prove that Oswald did not have co-conspirators, there are ample indications that LHO was performing a solo act on November 22, beginning with the fact that the ONLY bullets or bullet fragments or bullet shells that were recovered in the case ALL lead straight into Lee Harvey Oswald's very own rifle.
And that last item is an irrevocable fact that's not even disputable, even though you, Garry Puffer, have attempted to dispute it earlier in this thread when you cast some doubt on the reliability of the striation tests which have definitively linked ALL the bullet evidence in the JFK case to Carcano Rifle #C2766. So, here again, we've got a conspiracist--Mr. Puffer--who has put forth an alternate and, IMO, "unreasonable" piece of speculation and conjecture--namely that the linkage of the bullet evidence to Oswald's rifle isn't quite as conclusive as he really wants to believe it is. That is called "wishful thinking" in my book. But you, naturally, vehemently disagree. Well, so be it.
Plus:
There's also Lee Oswald's "solo"-like actions right after the shooting of JFK. If he had accomplices--where were they at 12:33 PM on November 22nd? Were they behind the Knoll fence lighting up a Camel while Lee Harvey needed a getaway car?
And Oswald's actions on November 21st also indicate the high likelihood he was acting alone, with no co-plotters. The (double) "curtain rod" lie he told to Wesley Frazier is a huge indication that Oswald wasn't involved with anyone else, IMO. The entire "curtain rod" lie could have easily been avoided if Oswald had a co-plotter. And any co-plotter could have provided the weapon too, thereby eliminating the need for Oswald to go to Irving at all on November 21.
(I'll pause while Garry laughs aloud at my last hunk of "unreasonable speculation". But it's still what I believe nonetheless. I would never expect a CTer to take seriously such average, garden-variety common sense, however. But everything I just said does make sense from my perspective....and it makes sense based on the evidence in this case as well.)
GARRY PUFFER SAID:
Produce a test bullet that can cause wounds similar to those in JFK and JC [John Connally] and comes out looking like CE399 and then we can talk.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
It's already been done--multiple times. You (obviously) just don't want to believe the results of those ballistics tests.
The Discovery Channel test in 2004 produced a decent "SBT" simulation. Not perfect, no. But pretty decent. [Click Here.]
And in 1992, there was a very impressive test done by Dr. Martin Fackler, President of the International Wound Ballistics Association, in which Fackler fired a Carcano bullet just like CE399 into a human wrist bone at a reduced muzzle velocity of 1,100 feet per second.
Fackler's bullet broke the wrist bone and emerged in absolutely perfect condition--even better condition than CE399. Here is Fackler's test bullet after it had broken a wrist bone:
Quoting Dr. Fackler himself concerning his test:
"The bullet actually made a slightly greater hole than the one in Governor Connally's wrist. That's because the experiment bullet was actually going a little faster than the 900 feet [per second] that CE399 was travelling. The test bullet was non-deformed. It was not flattened in the least and had nowhere near the damage of CE399."
Fackler made those statements about his bullet test on August 10, 1992, during the American Bar Association's mock trial of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Source: "Case Closed" by Gerald Posner.
GARRY PUFFER SAID:
Offer me some evidence that will prove your case but which we haven't seen already thousands of times. Get creative.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Why should I need to "get creative" to convince anyone that Oswald was as guilty as O.J.? The current huge batch of Oswald-Did-It stuff that's on the table easily suffices to convict Mr. Oswald five times over. You don't "buy" it. Well, okay. That's your privilege. If you want to believe a bunch of people had a desire to fake evidence and frame an innocent man for two murders he never committed, then I guess you're entitled to those beliefs--even though such beliefs are NOT reasonable ones, in my opinion.
You might enjoy this little tidbit, though, about Oswald's rifle purchase. It's kind of new and "creative" (in a way).
David Von Pein
January 9-13, 2014
[Note -- The Amazon.com link above is no longer available. All of the Amazon forums were discontinued and completely deleted on October 6, 2017.]
