DILLON RANKINE SAID:
~~~ Bill O'Reilly's JFK Assassination Lie ~~~
The title may mislead members of this forum as I am not talking about his entire book, with every page filled with lies.
No, I'm taking about his statements regarding the death of Oswald associate George de Mohrenschildt as O'Reilly claims that he was at de Mohrenschildt's front door and heard the sound of the shotgun which took de Mohrenschildt's life.
Since O'Reilly is a LNer, he either needs to pretend that the evidence for conspiracy doesn't exist or simply lie about supporting evidence for the "Lone-Gunman" theory, like Gerald Posner.
One thing that LNers do is claim that de Mohrenschildt committed suicide in an attempt to disprove the "Killing of Witnesses" theory. O'Reilly claims to be at
de Mohrenschildt's door when he heard a shot, but he says no one broke into
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Following all this controversy about Bill O'Reilly's lie concerning George DeMohrenschildt (which is a falsehood that has been proven to be a lie by way of this telephone call), I wanted to refresh my memory a little bit about DeMohrenschildt's alleged suicide, and I also wanted to refresh my memory about DeMohrenschildt's mental condition during the weeks and months leading up to his death in March 1977.
And the place I always go to first in order to "refresh" my memory on everything concerning the JFK case is Vincent Bugliosi's "Reclaiming History". (What better place is there to go?) And, as usual, Vincent's book didn't disappoint.
If the following book excerpts don't convince people that George DeMohrenschildt was—at the very least—a mentally disturbed individual throughout the years 1976 and early 1977, then those people will probably never be convinced of anything.
It's pretty much impossible to believe that DeMohrenschildt was murdered after reading about all of the sources shown below (including his own wife and daughter) that say he was on the brink of committing suicide for at least a year prior to his death—and that he had, in fact, attempted suicide four separate times in the year 1976 alone (which means he tried to kill himself before the HSCA was even formed).
Here are the relevant excerpts from Mr. Bugliosi's book....
"The Palm Beach County sheriff's office, which investigated de Mohrenschildt's death, concluded he died "by his own hand." .... The conspiracy theorists find
de Mohrenschildt's suicide highly suspicious (many suspect he was actually murdered), but they don't go on to say why—they can't because no conspiratorial inference can be drawn.
Neither the Warren Commission nor the HSCA ever considered de Mohrenschildt a suspect in the assassination. Even if they did, why wouldn't simply telling the truth and denying guilt to an HSCA investigator be preferable to killing oneself? Indeed, even if de Mohrenschildt were guilty, again, why wouldn't lying under oath and denying guilt, which thousands of defendants in criminal cases do every day throughout the land, be preferable to killing oneself? It makes absolutely no sense at all that de Mohrenschildt would "rather die than lie" to an HSCA investigator, even if he was eventually asked to testify under oath.
In fact, de Mohrenschildt had already testified under oath about his relationship with Oswald before the Warren Commission in 1964. Even if he were involved in the assassination, which there's absolutely no evidence of, why wouldn't he, in 1977, be willing to simply tell the same story under oath again?
What does make sense (and the conspiracy books don't usually tell their readers this) is that George de Mohrenschildt, age sixty-five at the time of his death, had in recent years...become a deeply depressed and mentally unstable individual who wanted to die.
The Palm Beach County sheriff's office conducted a fairly thorough investigation of de Mohrenschildt's death, and everyone whom chief investigating officer Thomas Neighbors (a detective for the Palm Beach County sheriff's office) spoke to confirmed that de Mohrenschildt was mentally ill. His investigative report said that Mrs. Tilton [i.e., Mrs. Nancy Tilton, a cousin of George DeMohrenschildt's first wife] recounted that during de Mohrenschildt's stay, "he discussed previous attempts at suicide . . . [and] expressed feelings of persecution from unspecified Jewish elements, the federal government, and [being] blackmailed by an attorney in Dallas, but she knew that he was suffering from mental illness and depression and she did not lend credence to his fears."
His daughter Alexandra told Neighbors that her father had been shadowed with the suspicion among conspiracy theorists that he had been involved in the assassination and that this, along with other personal problems, disturbed him to the point where he had made several previous attempts on his life, was committed briefly to a mental institution, and since his stay in Florida had expressed a desire to commit suicide.
When Neighbors reached de Mohrenschildt's wife, Jeanne, by phone in Los Angeles, she elaborated on his mental condition. He wrote, "She stated that . . . over the past several years he has been acting in an 'insane manner.' He constantly was in fear of what he termed the 'Jewish Mafia' and the FBI, but she felt his fears were groundless . . . On November 9, 1976, Mrs. de Mohrenschildt signed commitment papers in Dallas . . . to have her husband placed in a mental home for treatment [actually, the psychiatric unit at Parkland Memorial Hospital] . . . In the affidavit she stated that the victim suffered from depression, heard voices, saw visions, and believed that the FBI and 'The Jewish Mafia' were persecuting him." Also, that he "had attempted suicide four times in 1976 by slashing his wrists, trying to drown himself in [the] bathtub, and twice taking overdoses of medicine."
De Mohrenschildt was confined for eight weeks in Parkland, during which time, per his lawyer Pat Russell, he received heavy shock treatment.*
* On October 29, 1976, just a week and a half before his commitment at Parkland, de Mohrenschildt went to a Dallas psychiatrist, telling him, "I am depressed. I am killing myself," and asked that he be committed as a mental patient to Terrell State Hospital in Terrell, Texas, near Dallas. Four days later, after the psychiatrist had made arrangements for admitting him voluntarily,
de Mohrenschildt changed his mind and decided not to go to Terrell. (Earl Golz, "Oswald Friend Vowed Suicide, Psychiatrist Claimed," Dallas Morning News,
April 1, 1977, p.20A)
Neighbors said in his report that shortly before de Mohrenschildt shot himself with Mrs. Tilton's shotgun, "he questioned Mrs. Viisola (the maid) about a scratching sound which apparently annoyed him. He speculated that it was a cat, which there are none in the Tilton residence, and he began to pace up and down the long main hallway, calling for a cat . . . Mrs. Viisola felt that the visitor was not behaving normally and was, in her own words, slightly mad."
The Palm Beach County sheriff's office was able to determine the precise time of death on March 29, 1977, at 2:21 (and 3 seconds) p.m. because Mrs. Tilton, who was out, was recording a television program and the "gunshot is audible" (per the sheriff's office report) on the tape recorder. There were no "non-television-related sounds on the tape cassette," the report said, to indicate anything other than a suicide.*
* The inimitable Mark Lane, however, perpetually up to his conspiratorial patter, found sounds indicating, to him, foul play. He wrote in the November 1977 edition of Gallery magazine that he attended de Mohrenschildt's coroner's inquest (which ruled that de Mohrenschildt's death was a suicide, the medical examiner who conducted the autopsy, Dr. Gabino Cuevas, testifying to his belief that the gunshot was self-inflicted) and that "the various servants testified that an alarm system installed by the owner of the house caused a bell to ring . . . whenever an outside door or window was opened. The courtroom became silent as the tape recording was played. Just after a commercial . . . a gentle bell was heard, and then the shotgun blast." (Mark Lane, Gallery, November 1977)
Detective Neighbors (now a lieutenant) told me that he too was at the inquest. He said that when any door or window at the Tilton mansion was opened, a "beeping sound," not a bell, was heard, that a beeping sound was heard on the tape just before the shotgun blast, but he had determined it was caused by the live-in maintenance man, Coley Wimbley, walking out the back door of the home. "The next beeping sound on the tape was at least ten minutes later. An assassin would be expected to get out of there long before that."
Neighbors said he meticulously went over the movements of everyone coming in and out of the house and "no beeps were unaccounted for." Neighbors said he had no doubt de Mohrenschildt had committed suicide. "He was a very disturbed individual at the end. He was hiding from the world, thinking the world was against him." (Telephone interview of Thomas Neighbors by author [Vincent Bugliosi] on November 6, 2000)
Oh yes, in the left pocket of de Mohrenschildt's pants when his body was found was a clipping of a front-page headline about him from the Dallas Morning News dated March 20, 1977 (nine days earlier) captioned "Mental Ills of Oswald Confidant Told."
Apparently de Mohrenschildt's mental problems went way back. For instance...Mrs. Igor Vladimir Voshinin, a member of the Russian emigre community in Dallas who knew de Mohrenschildt well, told the Warren Commission back in 1964 that "he was a neurotic person. He had some sort of headaches and sometimes he would flare into a rage absolutely for no reason at all practically . . . He complained to me several times that he could not concentrate very well."
Along with all his other demons, according to one of his friends, Samuel B. Ballen, who had dinner in Dallas with de Mohrenschildt shortly before he died,
de Mohrenschildt was "beating himself pretty hard" with guilt over the assassination. He knew Oswald had liked and looked up to him, and wondered whether something he had done or said, something "childish" and "sophomoric" on his part, might have nudged Oswald over the edge in the direction he ultimately took.
Ballen felt depressed over his meeting with de Mohrenschildt, later recalling that for all of his friend's frailties, the greatest of which was his "utter irresponsibility," George, he believed, was "one of the world's great people," and looking back, felt he had been dining with "Hemingway before the suicide."
Both the HSCA and the Warren Commission took a more than casual interest in de Mohrenschildt to determine if he was an intelligence agent with a possible connection to the assassination, the latter question being the whole point of the exercise.
The HSCA never got around to addressing itself to this ultimate point of its inquiry, but it did so indirectly by concluding it had found "no evidence that
de Mohrenschildt had ever been an American intelligence agent." And nothing in its report or volumes suggests he was acting at the behest of any foreign country in his association with Oswald.
The Warren Commission said its investigation had not produced "any evidence linking [de Mohrenschildt] in any way with the assassination of President Kennedy." "
-- Vincent T. Bugliosi; Pages 1209—1211 of "Reclaiming History: The Assassination Of President John F. Kennedy"
LESLIE SHARP SAID:
After years of failed suicide attempts, George deMohrenshildt [sic] waited for the perfect, opportune time this one last time, just after noon in broad daylight in the home of his former sister-in-law who was also hosting his beloved daughter Alexandra and her young friend who undoubtedly could come upon his corpse and be scarred for life.
Having just earned $1,000 of a $4,000 fee for a four-day interview, George became spontaneously, suicidally despondent, borrowed a long gage shotgun from the Tiltons, sat down and shot himself in the mouth.
Yep. And he did this while intrepid Dallas ABC-WFAA (Ted Dealey, Belo Corporation) reporter Bill O’Reilly stood on the doorsteps of the Tilton Mansion … doing what? Was Bill ringing the door bell, was he knocking on the window panes, was he shuffling around wondering whether or not anyone was home?
When he heard the shots did Bill rush into the house? How did deM arrive at the Mansion, how did Bill arrive at the Mansion, where were their rental cars, or if neither had cars and used taxis, where is the testimony of the taxi drivers? Where are the police records that reference one “Bill O’Reilly, star reporter” at the scene of the crime? Where is the record of the report Bill filed that day with WFAA, the ‘scoop’ … “I just heard the actual gunshots of George deMohrenshildt’s [sic] suicide.”
Fool me once, DvP …..
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You're preaching to the choir when discussing Bill O'Reilly's obvious (and provable) lie about being at DeMohrenschildt's door when the gun went off. Everybody now knows that WAS a lie. There's no question about that fact. This phone call verifies the lie....
But O'Reilly's big fat lie certainly doesn't mean George DeMohrenschildt was murdered by someone on March 29, 1977. Does it, Leslie?
So, you think Jeanne DeMohrenschildt lied through her teeth when she told investigator Thomas Neighbors that her husband had tried to kill himself FOUR separate times in the year 1976?
Did the alleged "conspiracy" and "cover-up" stretch all the way to Jeanne DeMohrenschildt (and George's daughter Alexandra) too?
I don't see what's so hard to believe about a mentally unstable person, who had attempted suicide multiple times in the past year and who might have placed upon himself some guilt pertaining to Lee Harvey Oswald's decision to kill the President, becoming suicidal once again when he dwells upon what loomed ahead for him---i.e., having to testify about his relationship with Oswald all over again--which apparently had become a subject that caused Mr. DeMohrenschildt considerable grief and internal anguish over the years since 1963.
Given DeMohrenschildt's past history of suicidal tendencies and his alleged inner guilt that he may have felt in possibly (in his own mind) saying or doing something that could have caused Oswald to commit his heinous act on 11/22/63, it doesn't surprise me in the least that George picked the date of March 29th, 1977, to place that shotgun in his mouth.
You see, it's all a matter of perspective.
DAVID HAZAN SAID:
I understand. But the perspective you presented is an extremely narrow one.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
But given GdM’s known mental history, it’s also the most logical and reasonable perspective, too. (IMO)
DAVID HAZAN SAID:
The reason I called it narrow is that it does not take into consideration anything else about who he was, what he was, what was happening to him at the time, and all of the peripheral events in an effort to create a “mentally unstable” narrative that is not impossible, but nonetheless not so probable.
It is not necessarily what GdM did, but more what investigators and law enforcement did NOT do after the suicide that does not pass the smell test.
In addition, according to researcher Bruce Adamson, GdM was administered 9 sessions of electroshock “therapy” at Parkland Hospital during the period before his suicide. (He claims to have hospital records to back his claim.)
It is also worth noting that his long time friend/partner/accomplice GHWBush had left his post as the director of CIA just two months earlier. This is purely speculation on my part, but this might have lifted a certain level of protection GdM was enjoying until then.
Also, the incoming director, Stan Turner, was tasked with doing a wiggle dance by testifying and convincing the world that the MKUltra program existed, but had long been terminated. The chances are that Turner was chosen to do the job because of his involvement and expertise in the program to begin with. Which brings us back to the nine electroshock “treatments” and what their nature might have been. (I took some shortcuts here for the purposes of this post, but the chainlink fence of deceit from GdM to the CIA is quite a solid one.)
So, had GdM been an unhappy and boring bank clerk living in a suburb of Dallas, there would be nothing to this suicide, which could easily be explained away with a “depressed” and “mentally unstable” framework. But for a man like GdM, a company man of international intrigue, espionage, under the table oil deals, etc., who happened to be Oswald’s main CIA connection, it is a flimsy and cherry picked explanation at best.
I can’t help mention that his “alleged guilt”, if true, was a lot more likely to be for much, much heavier burdens than just “pertaining to Lee Harvey Oswald’s decision to kill the President”… Which, as a masterfully short phrase, implies not only LHO “decided” on his own, but did kill the president, once again, all on his own. So, I commend you for its wording...but what it says is utter nonsense.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Good post, David Hazan. Thank you.
There are always two sides to every story. Otherwise, websites like this one would not even exist.
But the fact remains that Mr. DeMohrenschildt was almost certainly suffering from mental instability in the years 1976 and 1977 shortly before his death. And he had (per his wife) attempted to kill himself on multiple occasions in just the previous year (1976) alone — and some of those attempts would have occurred almost certainly PRIOR to the formation of the HSCA (i.e., before George DeM. could have known he was going to have to testify in front of another U.S. Government committee investigating JFK’s murder).
So, in my view, the “suicide” conclusion presents itself as the probable truth in DeMohrenschildt’s case.
Are there conspiracy theorists out there who really think the “plot” or “cover-up” went so far as to merely STAGE or FAKE multiple alleged suicide attempts on the part of George DeMohrenschildt, and then the plotters managed to get the victim’s wife and daughter to lie about those suicide attempts to the investigators after his death?
Am I really expected to think that a cover-up plot extended to those lengths?
And if Jeanne DeM. was telling the truth, am I really supposed to believe that a man who had tried to kill himself at least four times in the recent past was actually murdered—even though all signs point to the man taking his own life?
In my opinion, it’s those PAST attempts at suicide that spell doom for the conspiracy theorists who want to believe George S. DeMohrenschildt was murdered.
LESLIE SHARP SAID:
David vonPein [sic; is there any particular reason why you are deliberately misspelling my name in every post you direct toward me? ~shrug~], again I ask you if your argument solely rests on George deMohrenschildt’s previous attempts to kill himself?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
We’ve got a mentally disturbed man who has tried to kill himself on numerous prior occasions in the last year or two. And this same man then ends up dead of an apparent suicide (with no signs whatsoever of foul play connected with his demise), and yet I’m supposed to think he was murdered instead of taking his own life? That seems mighty silly to me. But I guess most conspiracy theorists like “murder” better than “Occam”.
LESLIE SHARP SAID:
If so, I would point out that he had endured electro-shock therapy administered at Parkland by the way in the interim.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Which only further indicates the victim’s deteriorating mental condition. How many people undergo electroshock therapy just for the fun of it?
Or should I think the “electroshock” stuff is all just a lie too? As well as DeMohrenschildt’s multi-week confinement in Parkland’s psychiatric ward?
You’re practically making my point for me, Leslie.
George DeMohrenschildt had severe mental problems, as the “electroshock” treatment vividly illustrates.
WILLY WHITTEN SAID:
Yes indeed, who would “volunteer” for torture such as electroshock therapy?
Surely you are not serious David. This brutal treatment is not voluntary...
LESLIE SHARP SAID:
And who authorized the electroshock? (please note Willy Whitten’s recent revelation about a Doctor Mendoza at Parkland).
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Oh, I see. So now a certain “Dr. Mendoza” is part of the plot to cover-up the true facts about President Kennedy's assassination by FORCING George DeMohrenschildt to undergo electroshock treatments against George's will. Is that it?
And George could do NOTHING to stop this “torture”, right? Mr. DeM., just like Lee Harvey Oswald (if we're to believe some of the conspiracy theorists out there), was merely a puppet on a string, with absolutely no will of his own. Oswald and DeMohrenschildt apparently had no ability whatsoever to fight back against the evil conspiratorial forces that surrounded each of them.
“Mr. DeMohrenschildt, we want to give you several electroshock treatments to turn your brain to mush. That's okay with you, isn't it George?”
“Hey Lee! You don't mind carrying this long paper package into the Book Depository Building on the morning of November 22, 1963, do you? You don't need to know what's in the package, just be a good sport and let Buell Frazier see you walk into the back door of the building with it. And tell Buell it contains curtain rods or something like that. Okay, buddy? Thanks!”
How many totally subservient puppets and slaves are needed to create a good-looking cover-up operation associated with the death of a U.S. President?
Unknown. (The conspiracy theorists are still trying to figure it out, as they add more and more obedient servants to their make-believe JFK conspiracy every year.)
LESLIE SHARP SAID:
Will you now speak to the specifics of the investigation into deMohrenschildt’s death and to Bill O’Reilly’s lie? If not, my conversation with you is concluded.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
O’Reilly’s lie, of course, has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject we’ve been talking about here — i.e., whether George DeMohrenschildt was murdered or committed suicide.
The police officer who investigated DeMohrenschildt’s death for the Palm Beach Sheriff’s Office said this in his report. If conspiracy theorists want to ignore these words, that’s their choice:
“This writer’s investigation has failed to produce any evidence which would tend to indicate that the victim met his death by any means other than by his own hand. All of the facts indicate that he was a disturbed man, who, at the time of his death, was suffering from the same overwhelming mental pressures which must have surely prompted his four prior suicide attempts, in Texas, in 1976. This death investigation is, therefore, declared to be a suicide and is hereby EXCEPTIONALLY CLEARED.” — Detective Thomas Neighbors; Sheriff’s Office, Palm Beach County, Florida
David Von Pein
March 11, 2015
March 11-16, 2015
Here are some interesting excerpts from the April 22, 1964, Warren Commission testimony of George DeMohrenschildt....
GEORGE DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- I tried, both my wife and I, hundreds of times to recall how exactly we met the Oswalds. But they were out of our mind completely, because so many things happened in the meantime. So please do not take it for sure how I first met them.
ALBERT E. JENNER, JR. -- We want your best recollection.
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- My best recollection--I even cannot recall who gave me their address in Fort Worth. I don't recall that. Either George Bouhe or the Clarks, because the Clarks knew them already, Max and Gali Clark, because they were from Fort Worth, you see. And I think a few days later somebody told me that they live in dire poverty. Somewhere in the slums of Fort Worth. I had to go on business to Fort Worth with my very close friend, Colonel [Lawrence] Orlov...and I told him, let's go and meet those people, and the two of us drove to this slum area in Fort Worth and knocked at the door, and here was Marina and the baby. Oswald was not there. .... I said a few words in Russian, I said we are friends of George Bouhe. I think he was already helping them a little bit, giving them something for the baby or something. I think he had already been in--he helps everybody. He has been helping her especially. And so the introduction was fine. And I found her not particularly pretty, but a lost soul, living in the slums, not knowing one single word of English, with this rather unhealthy looking baby, horrible surroundings.
MR. JENNER -- Did you go into the home---was it a house or apartment?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- It was a shack, near Sears Roebuck, as far as I remember--near that area. I don't know if you went down there. A little shack, which had only two rooms, sort of clapboard-type building. Very poorly furnished, decrepit, on a dusty road. The road even was not paved.
MR. JENNER -- What did you talk to her about?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- Just asked her how she likes it here, and how she was getting along, does she get enough food, something like that--completely meaningless conversation. ....
MR. JENNER -- Did you ask about her husband?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- I said, "Well, I would like to meet your husband." She said he should be back from work soon. She asked me to sit down, offered me something to drink, I think--she had some sherry or something in the house. This is the best of my recollection. And Lawrence sat down, and found her very nice. And then after a little while, Oswald--Lee--appeared.
MR. JENNER -- You say Lee appeared?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- Yes, Lee appeared.
MR. JENNER -- Lee appeared. You had never seen him before?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- Never seen him before.
MR. JENNER -- What happened, and what was said?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- Well, he loved to speak Russian.
MR. JENNER -- Did you introduce yourself? And explain why you were there?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- Yes, I said, "I'm a friend of George Bouhe, I want to see how you are getting along."
MR. JENNER -- Did you speak in Russian or English?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- In English at first, and then he switched to Russian.
MR. JENNER -- What was your impression of his command of Russian?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- Well, he spoke fluent Russian, but with a foreign accent, and made mistakes, grammatical mistakes, but had remarkable fluency in Russian.
MR. JENNER -- It was remarkable?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- Remarkable--for a fellow of his background and education. It is remarkable how fast he learned it. But he loved the language. He loved to speak it. He preferred to speak Russian than English any time. He always would switch from English to Russian.
MR. JENNER -- Your impression was the child looked rather on the sickly side?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- Yes, very much so. It was kind of a big head, bald big head, looked like Khrushchev, the child--looked like an undergrown Khrushchev. I always teased her about the fact that the baby looked like Khrushchev.
MR. JENNER -- Now, you had this visit, and you returned home?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- I think the first visit was very short, and we drove back with Lawrence, and I remember on the way we discussed that couple, and both had a lot of sympathy for her especially. But he also struck me as a very sympathetic fellow.
MR. JENNER -- Yes. Give me your impression of him at that time--your first impression.
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- The first impression and the last impression remain more or less the same. I could never get mad at this fellow.
MR. JENNER -- Why?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- Sometimes he was obnoxious. I don't know. I had a liking for him. I always had a liking for him. There was something charming about him, there was some--I don't know. I just liked the guy--that is all. .... You know, he was very humble with me. He was very humble. If somebody expressed an interest in him, he blossomed--absolutely blossomed. If you asked him some questions about him, he was just out of this world. That was more or less the reason that I think he liked me very much.
MR. JENNER -- That first visit didn't give you any opportunity to observe the relations between Marina and Lee, I assume?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- I already noticed then that the couple--that they were not getting along, right away.
MR. JENNER -- What made you have that impression?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- Well, there was a strained relationship there. You could feel that. And, you know how it is--you can see that the couple--that they are not very happy. You could feel that. And he was not particularly nice with her. He didn't kiss her. It wasn't a loving husband who would come home and smile and kiss his wife, and so on and so forth. He was just indifferent with her. He was more interested in talking to me than to her. That type of attitude.
MR. JENNER -- But you did notice throughout all your acquaintance with him that he blossomed when you paid attention to him, let us say?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- Exactly.
MR. JENNER -- You drew him into conversation or situations--especially when you asked something about him?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- Yes, exactly. I think that is his main characteristic. He wanted people to be interested in him, not in Marina. And she remained quite often in the background. Later on, even in conversation, she would remain in the background, and he would do the talking.
MR. JENNER -- Did he have an arrogant attitude?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- No, with me he has never been arrogant.
MR. JENNER -- Your wife also took the baby for some medical care?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- Now, this I am not so sure. She told Marina where to go, and told her, "You have to give the baby such and such injections." And this I remember well--that she didn't do it. She didn't go to that children's clinic, because of pure negligence. She is that type of a girl--very negligent, poor mother, very poor mother. Loved the child, but a poor mother that doesn't pay much attention. And what amazed us, you know, that she, having been a pharmacist in Russia, did not know anything about the good care of the children, nothing.
MR. JENNER -- Did there go through your mind speculations as to whether Oswald was an agent of anybody?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- No.
MR. JENNER -- Why? Before I put it that way--when you say "No," am I correct in assuming that you thought about the subject and you concluded he was not an agent of anybody? Is that what you meant?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- I never thought even about it. I will tell you why I thought he never was--because he was too outspoken. He was too outspoken in his ideas and his attitudes. If he were really--if he were an agent, I thought he would have kept quiet. This would be my idea. .... He was not sophisticated, you see. He was a semi-educated hillbilly. And you cannot take such a person seriously. All his opinions were crude, you see. But I thought at the time he was rather sincere.
MR. JENNER -- Mr. DeMohrenschildt, it appears to be the consensus in that Russian colony, that community, that Oswald reached a point where he resented all the people other than you--that he had a liking for you...or respect, or something.
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- I treated him nicely. My wife treated them like human beings, disregarding their bad qualities. Because that is our way of treating poor people. My philosophy is--you may object to that--but my philosophy is not to bend in front of the strong and be very nice to the poor---as nice as I can. And they were very miserable, lost, penniless, mixed up. So as much as they both annoyed me, I did not show it to them because it is like insulting a beggar--you see what I mean.
MR. JENNER -- Did Marina smoke?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- Yes. Oh, boy, this is an interesting question. She loved to smoke and would smoke as many cigarettes as she could lay her hands on. And you know, Oswald did not smoke and forbade her to smoke. This is the reason--one of the reasons--they fought so bitterly, because he would take the cigarette away from her and slap her.
MR. JENNER -- In your presence?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- In my presence, would take the cigarette away from her and push her, "You are not going to do that," in a dictatorial way. So I would say, "Now, stop it, let her smoke." And then he would relax. But that is the type of person he was. But not in our presence when we were away, Marina said he would not let her smoke nor drink, I think. He refused to let her drink either. And she liked to have a drink. With all her defects, she is more or less a normal person, and rather happy-go-lucky, a very happy-go-lucky girl.
MR. JENNER -- What about his drinking?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- I never saw him drink. Maybe he would take a very little, but I never saw him drink more than half a glass--as far as I remember. I didn't pay too much attention. Maybe that is why he was tense, because he did not drink enough. He was always tense. That guy was always under some kind of pressure.
MR. JENNER -- You have that impression?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- Yes. Always some kind of a pressure.
MR. JENNER -- And this was an inward pressure, you thought?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- Yes, some inward pressure.
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- The most important answer I think I got from Oswald--and that was one of the reasons we liked him and thought that he was rather intelligent in his estimation of Soviet Russia--is the fact that we asked him, both my wife and I, "Why did you leave Soviet Russia," and he said very sincerely, "Because I did not not find what I was looking for."
MR. JENNER -- And did you ask him what he was looking for?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- A Utopia. I knew what he was looking for--Utopia. And that does not exist anyplace.
MR. JENNER -- This man could not find what he was looking for anywhere in this world.
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- He could not find it in the States, he could not find it anyplace.
MR. JENNER -- He could find it only in him.
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- Exactly. He could find it in himself, in a false image of grandeur that he built in himself. But at the time that we knew him that was not so obvious. Now you can see that, as a possible murderer of the President of the United States, he must have been unbelievably egotistical, an unbelievably egotistical person.
MR. JENNER -- Did you ever discuss with him [Lee Oswald] his experiences in Russia with respect to hunting?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- Never have. .... I did not know even that he was interested in weapons 'til the day--which probably you will ask me later on--Easter, I think, when my wife saw his gun. I didn't know he was interested. I didn't know he had the gun. I didn't know he was interested in shooting or hunting. I didn't know he was a good shot or never had any impression.
MR. JENNER -- Now that you have mentioned that, we might as well cover that fully in the record. .... Tell me about that incident.
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- That incident is very clear in my mind.
MR. JENNER -- This was in 1963?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- In 1963, and the last time we saw them.
MR. JENNER -- It was the last time?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- The very last time we saw them.
MR. JENNER -- This was around Eastertime?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- Around Eastertime.
MR. JENNER -- In April?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- In April. It was in the second apartment that they had.
MR. JENNER -- That was on Neely Street?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- On Neely, I think, one block from the previous place they used to live. .... And Jeanne told me that day, "Let's go and take a rabbit for Oswald's baby." .... And so we drove over quite late in the evening and walked up--I think they were asleep. They were asleep and we knocked at the door and shouted, and Lee Oswald came down undressed, half undressed, you see, maybe in shorts, and opened the door, and we told him that we have the rabbit for the child. And it was a very short visit, you know. We just gave the rabbit to the baby and I was talking to Lee while Jeanne was talking to Marina about something which is immaterial which I do not recall right now...and I think Oswald and I were standing near the window looking outside and I was asking him "How is your job?" or "Are you making any money? Are you happy?", some question of that type. All of a sudden Jeanne, who was with Marina in the other room, told me "Look, George, they have a gun here." And Marina opened the closet and showed it to Jeanne, a gun that belonged obviously to Oswald.
MR. JENNER -- This was a weapon? Did you go in and look?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- No, I didn't look at the gun. I was still standing. The closet was open. Jeanne was looking at it--at the gun--and I think she asked Marina "What is that?", you see. That was the sight on the gun. "What is that? That looks like a telescopic sight." And Marina said "That crazy idiot is target shooting all the time." So, frankly, I thought it was ridiculous to shoot target shooting in Dallas, you see, right in town. I asked him "Why do you do that?"
MR. JENNER -- What did he say?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- He said, "I go out and do target shooting. I like target shooting." So out of the pure--really jokingly--I told him, "Are you then the guy who took a pot shot at General Walker?" And he smiled to that, because just a few days before there was an attempt at General Walker's life, and it was very highly publicized in the papers, and I knew that Oswald disliked General Walker, you see. So I took a chance and I asked him this question, you see, and I can clearly see his face, you know. He sort of shriveled, you see, when I asked this question.
MR. JENNER -- He became tense?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- Became tense, you see, and didn't answer anything, smiled, you know, made a sarcastic--not sarcastic--made a peculiar face.
MR. JENNER -- The expression on his face?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- That is right, changed the expression on his face.
MR. JENNER -- You saw that your remark to him had an effect on him.
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- Had an effect on him. But naturally he did not say yes or no, but that was it. That is the whole incident. I remember after we were leaving, Marina went in the garden and picked up a large bouquet of roses for us--they have nice roses downstairs--and gave us the roses to thank for the gift of the rabbit.
MR. JENNER -- Was there ever an occasion after this time, when you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt came to see the Oswalds, that as soon as you opened the door, you said, "Lee, how is it possible that you missed?"
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- Never. I don't recall that incident.
MR. JENNER -- You have now given me your full recollection of that entire rifle incident...?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- Yes.
MR. JENNER -- ...Weapon incident, and what you said to him?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- Yes, yes, yes, yes. That is right. How could I have--my recollections are vague, of course--but how could I have said that when I didn't know that he had a gun, you see. I was standing there and then Jeanne told us or Marina, you know, the incident just as I have described it, that here is a gun, you see. I remember very distinctly saying, "Did you take the pot shot at General Walker?" The same meaning, you know, "Did you miss him?"--about the same meaning? I didn't want him to shoot Walker. I don't go to that extent, you see.
MR. JENNER -- You didn't want him to shoot anybody?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- Anybody. I didn't want him to shoot anybody. But if somebody has a gun with a telescopic lens, you see, and knowing that he hates the man, it is a logical assumption, you see.
MR. JENNER -- You knew at that time that he had a definite bitterness for General Walker?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- I definitely knew that, either from some conversations we had on General Walker, you know--this was the period of General Walker's, you know, big showoff, you know.
MR. JENNER -- He was quite militant, wasn't he?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- He was, yes.
MR. JENNER -- Mr. De Mohrenschildt, up to that moment, is it your testimony that you never knew, and had no inkling whatsoever, that the Oswalds had a rifle or other weapon in their home?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- Absolutely positive that personally I didn't know a damn thing about it--positive. Neither did my wife.
MR. JENNER -- Was there any discussion about the weapon thereafter?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- No, no discussion. That ended the conversation. The remark about Walker ended the conversation. There was a silence after that, and we changed the subject and left very soon afterwards.
MR. JENNER -- Did you have a feeling that he was uncomfortable?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- Very, very uncomfortable, but I still did not believe that he did it, you see. It was frankly a stupid joke on my part. As the time goes by, it shows that sometimes it is not so stupid. But...my wife will tell you probably that I have a very stupid bad sense of humor, she says.
MR. JENNER -- Some people say you have a sadistic sense of humor.
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- Possibly. She says so also, my wife usually says that I like to tease people.
MR. JENNER -- And you do, don't you?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- She dislikes it. I like to, certainly, and I don't mind if people tease me. I never get mad. It is perfectly all right if somebody teases me.
MR. JENNER -- What about Marina and her politics? Was she inclined to discuss politics?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- Not too much, no. That was Lee's main point, you see, to discuss politics.
MR. JENNER -- What was her attitude toward Lee's views in that respect?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- She more or less considered him a crackpot, as far as I remember, you see. A few times she said, "Oh, that crazy lunatic. Again he is talking about politics." This is one of the reasons we liked her, because that was a very intelligent attitude, you see, but it was very annoying to Lee.
MR. JENNER -- That was another source of annoyance between them?
MR. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- Yes. There were so many sources of annoyance, as you know, that it was just an unhappy marriage.