Part 1354 of my "JFK Assassination Arguments" series includes a variety of my posts and comments covering the period of June 29, 2022, to July 31, 2022. To read the entire forum discussion from which my own comments have been extracted, click on the "Full Discussion" logo at the bottom of each individual segment.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
FYI ---
On the morning of June 28, 2022, I sent the following request to the Education Forum administrators via e-mail. The following day at 3:00 PM EDT (today, June 29th, 2022), I received a reply saying that I would be allowed to re-join The Education Forum. For that, I am very grateful. ....
David Von Pein
June 29, 2022
THE "DVP VS. THE EDUCATION FORUM" SAGA:
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DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Information such as identifying the person who picked up the revolver package or obtaining the bank records from Railway Express was no doubt deemed totally unnecessary by the Warren Commission. And the reason those things were totally unnecessary in this case is fairly obvious: It was because the Warren Commission knew that J.D. Tippit's killer (Lee Oswald) was caught red-handed with the Tippit murder weapon in his very own hands just half-an-hour after Tippit was killed with that very same gun (as proven by the four bullet shells that littered 10th Street and Patton Avenue, which were shells matched conclusively to Oswald's Smith & Wesson revolver, Serial No. V510210). (The protests of conspiracists notwithstanding, of course.)
The following comment is worth repeating every few days whenever the topic of Oswald & The Tippit Murder comes up. And so I had it digitally laminated in July of 2021 in the form of this logo below. I'm thinking of having a few hundred wallet-sized versions printed up and distributed to all conspiracy theorists in the United States and Canada:
David Von Pein
June 30, 2022
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DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You do realize that Ruth Paine could not possibly have "planted" LHO in the TSBD in order to set him up for Kennedy's murder, don't you Tom [Gram]? The timing and the overall circumstances concerning the way Oswald obtained his Depository job positively eliminate the notion that LHO was "placed" in the TSBD by any evil forces.
And once a reasonable person comes to the realization that Lee Oswald got his Depository job by way of the most regular, ordinary, and non-conspiratorial way imaginable, then (IMO) the remainder of the smears that have been attached to Ruth Paine by CTers vanish into nothingness.
Because if Ruth didn't help "place" Oswald in the TSBD for any kind of nefarious purpose (which she definitely did not do), then what WAS her job as far as the "Frame LHO" plot was concerned? To cook his meals on weekends? To allow Marina to stay at her house? To teach Lee how to parallel park? How do any of these things "advance" the alleged plot along to frame Lee Oswald for the murder of the President?
Or do some CTers think that Ruth's main purpose in the "plot" occurred AFTER the assassination, in the role of "Spreading lies and disinformation" concerning LHO? Is that it?
~shrug~
"Any reasonable person can obviously see how utterly impossible it is to "connect" all of these unconnected threads of SHEER HAPPENSTANCE regarding [Ruth] Paine, [Roy] Truly, [Wesley] Frazier, and [Linnie Mae] Randle in order to weave the magical type of "Oswald Was Planted In The TSBD" plot that conspiracists imagine took place. But just because nobody has yet been able to come close to weaving that magic carpet of conspiracy involving all of those innocent people (like Frazier, Paine, and Truly), it won't stop conspiracy theorists from pretending that a massive pre-assassination "plot" involving those very people really did occur in 1963." -- David Von Pein; July 1, 2008
http://jfk-archives/2010/06/Was Oswald Planted In The Depository?
David Von Pein
July 1, 2022
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DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Good gosh, you're splitting a lot of hairs here. You seem to want to fine-tune it down to about a millionth of a second regarding each victim's reaction time. Fact is, of course, that reaction times to people getting struck by bullets will vary from person to person. But in the Zapruder Film, we can SEE the two people who were being hit by a rifle bullet jerking their arms upward at precisely the same instant.
Now, CTers can argue (and they will) that the REASON for the simultaneous reactions we see in JFK & John Connally is not that they were actually reacting to the BULLET that was hitting them at just about this exact same time (and even CTers will have to agree with my "just about" statement here), but the conspiracists will likely say that Connally was merely reacting to the SOUND of a bullet he heard whiz past his ear.
I'd then ask: What's causing this sudden jerking up of Connally's right arm---the very same arm/wrist that (per CTers) has not yet been hit (but WILL be hit) by a bullet in another fraction of a second?
Just hearing the SOUND of a bullet is causing this hat dance? That's a mighty convenient excuse for CTers, IMO.
David Von Pein
July 2, 2022
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SANDY LARSEN SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Oswald's alibi wasn't that he was outside the building during the assassination. His alibi (per Captain Fritz's interrogation of LHO) was that he was inside the building---on the first floor---when the shooting occurred:
"I asked him what part of the building he was in at the time the President was shot, and he said that he was having his lunch about that time on the first floor." [Warren Report; Page 600]
Now, if Lee had really been out on the steps at 12:30, does anybody really believe that Oswald would have responded to Fritz's question the way Fritz says LHO responded?
If Oswald had been on the steps, Oswald would, of course, have been shouting to Fritz in no uncertain terms that he had been, in fact, on the TSBD steps when the President was shot, instead of providing Fritz with the very weak and wishy-washy reply about "having his lunch about that time on the first floor".
CTers can (and do) call Captain John Will Fritz a liar when it comes to reporting what LHO actually said during his time in custody. But there's also this from the Hosty/Bookhout report:
"Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed this building." [Warren Report, Page 613]
And there's also the undeniable fact that Oswald, when given multiple opportunities on both Nov. 22 and Nov. 23 to shout out "I was standing on the TSBD steps!" to the live TV cameras and microphones, never said anything of the kind to the press.
I expressed my own thoughts about the new Hosty document in 2019:
"I don't think the words "Presidential Parade" came out of the mouth of Lee Harvey Oswald. Based on all of the official FINAL reports (from Fritz, Bookhout, Hosty, and Kelley), I think the words "P. Parade" that appear in the "new" Hosty note were probably HOSTY'S words and HOSTY'S interpretation of Oswald's "out with Bill Shelley" statement. Otherwise, we'd have a lot more reports (and notes) that had the word "Parade" in them." -- DVP; February 2019
Lots more here:
David Von Pein
July 3, 2022
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PAT SPEER SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I think every reasonable person knows, deep down, that the [first-generation copy of the Darnell] film cannot possibly show Lee Oswald. Because if it did show Oswald, I'd have at least one or two news videos in my collection which include Oswald shouting to the world, "I was on the steps!"
Can there be any doubt at all that what I just said is absolutely true and makes total sense?
David Von Pein
July 5, 2022
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DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
As far as I know (and per the testimony of Captain Fritz printed below), the DPD just simply was not in the habit in 1963 of tape recording or transcribing the statements made by a suspect while in custody. That might sound extremely odd (and negligent) by today's standards of how police departments operate, but that was apparently the way it was in Dallas, circa 1963.
From Captain Fritz' 1964 testimony:
Mr. BALL. Did you have any tape recorder?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't have a tape recorder. We need one, if we had one at this time we could have handled these conversations far better.
Mr. BALL. The Dallas Police Department doesn't have one?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I have requested one several times but so far they haven't gotten me one.
[End Quotes.]
What I would like to see is some proof from the conspiracy crowd to show that is was, indeed, normal for the DPD in the early 1960s to tape record and/or transcribe via a stenographer the statements made by an arrested suspect.
Can any CTer come up with any other case in DPD history (circa early 1960s) where the Dallas Police Department positively did tape or create a transcript of a suspect's interrogation sessions? I've certainly never seen any such "proof". (I'm not sure anybody has ever even attempted to look for such a thing among the DPD records.)
And if such a tape recording or text transcript cannot be dug up for even one other 1960s-era DPD case, then why would the lack of any tapes/transcripts for Oswald's interrogations be looked upon as sinister or underhanded in any way---versus merely being normal SOP for the DPD in circa 1963?
It would be great if a recording existed of all the lies told by Oswald. We could then hear for ourselves, in LHO's own voice, all of those falsehoods that Oswald dished up for Fritz, Kelley, Bookhout, Hosty, et al.
But, as I said, it obviously was not SOP for the DPD to record/transcribe the interrogations of every suspect that was brought into City Hall back then---even when the suspect is accused of murdering the POTUS.
Incredibly lax? Maybe so. But what are we supposed to do about it now?
And should I assume that the lack of any Oswald in-custody recordings automatically means that Captain Fritz and Company lied their eyes out about the things that Oswald allegedly told the police while in custody?
That's a huge leap that I refuse to take. If others want to make that leap of faith, so be it.
David Von Pein
July 5, 2022
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DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
With regard to Marina Oswald's testimony, the Warren Commission was merely utilizing a witness they really had no choice but to utilize. Since Lee Oswald only had ONE wife---namely Marina---what was the WC going to do---just totally ignore the person who was by far the closest to the accused assassin? That would have been a foolish thing for the Commission to do. And so, naturally, we got a lot of testimony, warts and all, from Marina Oswald. Her testimony could not possibly have been avoided. Nor should it have been. Even with some warts included in it.
And regarding Howard Brennan....
I, for one, find Howard L. Brennan's testimony to be perfectly reasonable, realistic, and totally believable. And the reason Brennan gave to the Warren Commission for not initially positively identifying Lee Oswald at the DPD lineup on November 22nd is, IMO, a perfectly logical and reasonable reason for Brennan not wanting to I.D. the assassin of the President of the United States. I.E., he feared for the safety of himself and his family in the immediate aftermath of the assassination. An utterly believable reason there, without doubt.
In my view, conspiracy theorists like James DiEugenio don't accept the WC testimony of Howard Brennan simply because they just do not want Lee Harvey Oswald to be the assassin of President Kennedy.
I think it pretty much can be boiled down to that fundamental fact for many CTers.
BTW, as Jim DiEugenio surely knows (or he certainly should), Howard Brennan's vision problems began in January of 1964, which was two months AFTER the assassination. And Brennan made that fact quite clear during his WC testimony [at 3 H 147]....
DAVID BELIN -- Has there been anything that has happened since the time of November 22, 1963, that has changed your eyesight in any way?
HOWARD BRENNAN -- Yes, sir.
BELIN -- What has happened?
BRENNAN -- The last of January I got both eyes sandblasted.
BELIN -- This is January of 1964?
BRENNAN -- Yes. And I had to be treated by a Doctor Black, I believe, in the Medical Arts Building, through the company. And I was completely blind for about 6 hours.
BELIN -- How is your eyesight today?
BRENNAN -- He says it is not good.
BELIN -- But this occurred January of this year, is that correct?
BRENNAN -- Yes.
--------------------
So the CTers who continue to pretend that Brennan had rotten eyesight on November 22, 1963, are simply ignoring the above testimony provided by Brennan himself.
And one of the main reasons I believe him [Howard Brennan] (apart from what I said in an earlier post) is because all of the OTHER evidence in the case also points to Oswald as the assassin. So the chances of the man Brennan saw in the sixth-floor window NOT being Oswald are virtually non-existent (IMO).
Re: Brennan's description of the assassin's shirt....
It's quite possible that Oswald was not wearing the brown shirt when he shot Kennedy. He might very well have removed his brown outer shirt during the shooting, and therefore when he was seen by Brennan, Oswald had on only his white T-shirt. (And it's my opinion that Oswald then used his brown shirt to wipe some of his fingerprints off the rifle as he made his way to the northwest stairwell following the shooting. Hence, fibers from that brown shirt manage to get wedged under the butt plate of the rifle. Oswald then quickly put on the brown shirt as he descended the stairs to the second floor, leaving the shirt unbuttoned as he entered the lunchroom. All IMO.)
Yes, Brennan stressed the term "khaki" when he described the color of the assassin's shirt in his WC testimony. But I don't think this somewhat ambiguous testimony regarding shirt color eliminates the idea that Oswald was wearing only his white T-shirt when he shot JFK:
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the specific color of any shirt that the man with the rifle was wearing?
Mr. BRENNAN. No, other than light, and a khaki color--maybe in khaki. I mean other than light color--not a real white shirt, in other words. If it was a white shirt, it was on the dingy side.
David Von Pein
July 10-11, 2022
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DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
As I've pointed out in the past, the Tippit case provides us with the best possible COMBINATION of evidence that you could ever hope to have in which to prove the guilt of the real killer (which was Lee Harvey Oswald, of course)---
1.) Ballistics (firearms) proof. (Via the 4 bullet shells that Oswald was kind enough to scatter on the Davis girls' lawn, coupled with the additional hunk of kindness exhibited by Oswald on Nov. 22---that being: hanging on to the gun for 35 more minutes after ejecting those four shells on Tenth Street, so that Oswald could be caught carrying what various firearms experts proved was the Tippit murder weapon in his very own hands at the time he was arrested in the Texas Theater.)
2.) Positive identification from multiple eyewitnesses who either saw Oswald kill J.D. Tippit or saw Oswald fleeing the area of 10th & Patton with a gun in his hand.
The above combination of evidence provides rock-solid proof of the guilt of the killer (Oswald).
It is not logical, therefore, when faced with the above combination of evidence, to conclude that Lee Oswald was not the murderer of J.D. Tippit.
David Von Pein
July 11, 2022
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DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Lee Oswald's Smith & Wesson .38 revolver (Serial No. V510210) has a perfectly fine chain of custody ---- from Bob Carroll to Gerald Hill and then straight to the Dallas Police Headquarters at City Hall. No problem with that at all. CTers, as usual, are creating problems with the chain of possession for a piece of evidence where no problems exist whatsoever.
Do you think Bob Carroll and Sergeant Gerald L. Hill are both lying through their individual and collective teeth in their Warren Commission testimony below? ....
DETECTIVE BOB K. CARROLL -- "The first time I saw the weapon, it was pointed in my direction and I reached and grabbed it and stuck it into my belt. .... After leaving the theatre and getting into the car, I released the pistol to Sgt. Jerry Hill."
[...]
DAVID BELIN -- "Did you put any identification mark at all on this weapon?"
MR. CARROLL -- "Yes, sir; I did. The initials B. C., right above the screw on the inside of the butt of the pistol."
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DAVID BELIN -- "Now I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 143. Would you state if you know what this is?"
SERGEANT GERALD L. HILL -- "This is a .38 caliber revolver, Smith & Wesson, with a 2-inch barrel that would contain six shells. It is an older gun that has been blue steeled, and has a worn wooden handle."
MR. BELIN -- "Have you ever seen this gun before?"
MR. HILL -- "I am trying to see my mark on it to make sure, sir. I don't recall specifically where I marked it, but I did mark it, if this is the one. I don't remember where I did mark it, now. Here it is, 'Hill' right here, right in this crack."
[...]
MR. BELIN -- "Did you keep that gun in your possession until you scratched your name on it?"
MR. HILL -- "Yes, sir; I did."
MR. BELIN -- "Was this gun the gun that Officer Carroll handed to you?"
MR. HILL -- "And identified to me as the suspect's weapon."
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David Von Pein
July 15, 2022
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DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
It's highly doubtful that the ambulance carrying Officer Tippit's body arrived at Methodist Hospital as early as 1:15 PM CST on 11/22/63, since the same ambulance didn't even arrive at the Tippit murder scene until 1:18:59 PM [per Dale Myers' "With Malice", page 104].
Of course, the "in" thing to do now amongst conspiracy theorists seems to be to pretend that all of the times that appear on the DPD radio transmissions are way way off, which is ridiculous. If the DPD tapes are "off" at all, they are not likely to be off by more than a few seconds. So there's no way (realistically) that the ambulance with Tippit's body in it arrived at the hospital by (or at) 1:15.
David Von Pein
July 16, 2022
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DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Here are just a few of my observations concerning some of the errors made by James DiEugenio in these video presentations....
1.) The "12" that appears in the postmark on the envelope that Oswald mailed to Klein's Sporting Goods is very likely not a postal "zone" code designation at all. It's likely a machine number, as several people I've talked to over the last several years have said. (Much more on that subject here.)
2.) Jim incorrectly seems to think that Cadigan Exhibit No. 13 (at 19 H 286) proves that the Warren Commission and/or FBI lied about the info on Oswald's P.O. Box application. But we can easily see that the form that Jim thinks is from "Box 2915" is really from a different P.O. Box application altogether---it's from Box 6225, which was the box that Oswald rented on Nov. 1, 1963.
3.) Relating to Oswald's rifle purchase, DiEugenio is dead wrong when he said that Ruth Paine wrote the date "Oct. 22nd" on her March '63 calendar page. And Jim makes a further error by saying that Ruth told the WC that the date should have been Nov. 22. But she actually wrote "Oct. 23" on this calendar page, and she fully explained to the Warren Commission that it was a mistake on her part, and she meant to write "Nov. 23", which was the date when she learned (no doubt via Jesse Curry's 11/23 DPD hallway press gathering) of the "March 20" date for Oswald ordering the rifle. Where DiEugenio got the "Oct. 22 / Nov. 22" dates from, I have no clue. But he's wrong about those dates.
4.) And, of course, we've got Jim D. repeating the now-proven-to-be-wrong claim that "Elmer Lee Todd's initials are not on that bullet [CE399]". And Jim also repeats the incorrect notion that John Hunt actually photographed CE399 itself, vs. what Hunt actually did in 2006---he saw the photos of the bullet at the National Archives and (I guess) re-photographed the photographs. But Hunt never said he handled the bullet itself. He said his work with CE399 was done "using four of NARA's preservation photos."
5.) Jim claims that Vincent Bugliosi (and all LNers) have, in effect, "four magic bullets" (the Walker bullet + the 3 rounds supposedly fired by LHO on 11/22). Such a claim made me laugh out loud, considering the fact that DiEugenio (and most other CTers), per the most widely-accepted conspiracy theories, have a number of "magic bullets" themselves.
E.G., the CTs have TWO bullets with pretty strong "magic" powers when talking about just the bullets that CTers say hit JFK in the back and throat. Both of those bullets, for some unknown and weird reason, failed to travel more than a couple of inches into Kennedy's body. Both bullets, per CT accounts, just simply stopped on a dime inside JFK, even though they hit no solid objects whatsoever. And then, on top of that hunk of "magic", both bullets then either got lost on their own or were dug out of JFK's body by alleged plotters who were apparently part of the forever unknown and always unseen "cover-up squad".
So, whenever I hear a conspiracy theorist pontificate about how it's the LNers who possess "magic bullets" in the JFK case, I am compelled to demand equal time so that I can then talk about those two "magic missiles" that the anti-SBT CTers have had possession of in their collective imaginations since 1963.
David Von Pein
July 12, 2022
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DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
There is absolute rock-solid proof that CE143, the gun with all the police officers' initials on it, is positively Lee Oswald's revolver. The only way anybody could possibly think otherwise is to postulate (i.e., pretend) that this document below (Michaelis Exhibit No. 2) is a fake/fraudulent document. Because that particular document verifies for all time that Seaport Traders, in March of 1963, shipped to "A.J. Hidell" a Smith & Wesson .38 Special revolver with the exact same serial number on it that appears in this picture provided by Tom Gram---Serial Number V510210. And Seaport shipped that gun to the P.O. Box which we know was rented by the same man (Lee Oswald) who was arrested with a gun in his hands inside the Texas Theater on 11/22/63:
Conspiracy believers can continue to pretend that the above document is fraudulent or manufactured by the cops if they want to (and some do), but there has never been one shred of PROOF to show that Michaelis Exhibit No. 2 (or any other Kennedy-related evidence, for that matter) has actually been faked or manufactured by any team of conspirators who were bent on framing Lee Harvey Oswald.
I wonder if any conspiracy believer can answer this question....
If the gun taken off of Oswald in the theater WASN'T the V510210 S&W gun that was shipped to Oswald by Seaport Traders, Inc., then how and when did the Dallas Police acquire the V510210 revolver?
Even Oswald himself admits to taking a revolver into the movie theater. And there is no indication that Oswald owned TWO different revolvers.
I guess CTers can speculate that Oswald got ahold of another pistol and it was this "other" gun that was taken off of him in the theater....but why would anyone want to jump through such "another gun" hoops when the logical answer is that the ONE & ONLY handgun known to be owned by Lee Oswald was, indeed, the gun wrested from his grasp in the Texas Theater on Friday, November 22nd?
Shouldn't Occam and his handy Razor apply in this discussion about LHO's gun?
An anesthetized armadillo could have solved the Tippit murder case in less than twelve hours. But, for some odd reason, thousands of unanesthetized conspiracy researchers can't seem to manage that simple feat.
~large shrug~
David Von Pein
July 17-18, 2022
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SANDY LARSEN SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
So, Sandy, you think that if somebody quotes something from one of the official investigations (or a quote in later years from the head of the HSCA's FPP [Forensic Pathology Panel]), it's "disinformation", eh?
It's incredible you could actually call such quotes "disinformation". Particularly the Clark Panel quote I supplied [HERE]. I know CTers can't stand Dr. Baden, but what's the beef with the FOUR doctors who were on the Clark Panel? They're part of a plot and "cover-up" too, Sandy? Come on!
(And remember, the Clark Panel doctors were looking at the original first-generation autopsy photos and X-rays, which are much better quality than anything that's available on the Internet.)
David Von Pein
July 3, 2022
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DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
A link to Dale Myers' 7/19/2022 blog entry regarding the J.D. Tippit murder has already found a home at my blog site here. As is usually the case, I enjoyed Dale's latest tell-it-like-it-is article. I've linked to many of Myers' blog pieces at my own website over the years since Dale started his own blog in 2007 (which, ironically, is the very same year I started my first blog at the same "blogspot" platform).
I only wish I could convince Mr. Myers to become an active member of this forum. His detailed knowledge about so many aspects of the JFK and Tippit cases is virtually unparalleled. (The late Gary Mack comes close, however.)
Dale could be such a valuable contributor to a JFK forum like this one. But, alas, I kind of doubt anyone could now ever talk Dale into joining any JFK Internet forum, in light of these comments written by Dale this week:
"Years ago, when the Internet was in its infancy, I naively thought that forums like this would be a great way to share information, avoid duplication of effort, and generally enjoy the company of others who shared my passion for history and truth. Unfortunately, time has proven that the vast majority of these forums are nothing more than sandboxes for children where you either knuckle under the peer pressure or get sand kicked in your face. I’ve always found history fascinating and have spent the vast majority of my time trying to determine what is true, and what is not true, when it comes to the JFK assassination and the murder of Patrolman J.D. Tippit. To be honest, I haven’t learned one damn thing of importance from 26 years of patrolling these online forums. My occasional visits have become fewer and farther between – each time I’m reminded of why it’s better to stay away. Better for me, better for truth, and better for history."
-- Dale K. Myers; July 19, 2022
David Von Pein
July 20, 2022
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DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Don't forget --- the DPD wasn't the ONLY law enforcement entity gathering and collecting evidence in the JFK case. The Secret Service collected CE399 plus all the bullet fragments from the limousine. And there are many many CTers who feel that the FBI was up to their eyeballs in helping to "frame" Lee Oswald too, after the FBI got ahold of the evidence from the DPD around midnight on Nov. 22.
So that's THREE different law agencies (not counting Bill Decker's Sheriff's Dept. as well) who have been accused of playing around with the evidence in the Kennedy/Tippit cases.
So, if the evidence in the JFK/Tippit cases is not legitimate, that means THREE different law enforcement entities would have had to possess the very same like-mindedness to want to frame the same man (Lee Oswald) by using fraudulent/manufactured evidence that all points to LHO.
Do you believe that, Pat Speer? Or do you think it was just the DPD who were involved with "faking this a little" and "faking that a little"?
[Pat's answer is here.]
David Von Pein
July 20, 2022
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DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
This comment made by Joe Bauer is, in my opinion, totally unwarranted and just flat-out ridiculous.
As time goes on, there are more and more conspiracy believers who seem to want to smear just about everyone connected with the Kennedy assassination except the person to whom all of the evidence leads---Lee H. Oswald.
Ruth Paine, Michael Paine, J.D. Tippit, Buell Frazier, Linnie Randle, Roy Truly, Marrion Baker, Will Fritz, Gerald Hill, Captain Westbrook, and many others are branded with the label of "suspicious" by many CTers. While Lee Harvey Oswald, who was the owner of both of the 11/22/63 murder weapons (which is a provable fact no matter what any conspiracy theorist today wants to believe), is considered by many to be merely an innocent "patsy" in BOTH of those Nov. 22 murders, despite the pile of evidence that exists against him.
The logic of such thinking completely escapes me.
David Von Pein
July 14, 2022
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DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Education Forum member Cory Santos has been wondering why Ruth Paine and Marina Oswald didn't go to downtown Dallas on 11/22/63 to watch President Kennedy in the motorcade. One forum member thought the reason might be because Ruth and Marina would have had to take their four very young children with them, and that might have proved quite a burdensome task. I then offered up these additional thoughts....
There are two other factors as well:
1.) Ruth Paine had to take her daughter to the dentist on the morning of November 22nd. Such a task probably would have ruled out a visit downtown to see the motorcade. Granted, a dental appointment is certainly something that could have easily been re-scheduled for another day (because I don't think it was an "emergency" dental visit).
From Ruth's Warren Commission testimony:
MRS. PAINE -- "I fixed breakfast for myself and my children, turned on the television set to hear President Kennedy speak in Fort Worth, and had breakfast there. I left the house about 9 with my little girl and boy, because she had a dentist appointment, the little girl. I left the television set on, feeling that Marina might not think to turn it on, but I knew that she would be interested to see President Kennedy. I then was gone until nearly noon, 11:30 or so, both to the dentist and on some errands following that..."
2.) Ruth Paine testified that she thought Lee probably worked at the OTHER Depository building (the warehouse on Houston Street). CTers think she was lying (of course). But, of course, I think otherwise. Therefore, the building that Ruth (and probably Marina too) associated with Lee's workplace would not have been along the motorcade route.
ALBERT JENNER -- "I heard you mention the Texas School Depository warehouse. Did you think the warehouse was at 411 Elm?"
RUTH PAINE -- "No. I had seen a sign on a building as I went along one of the limited access highways that leads into Dallas, saying "Texas School Book Depository Warehouse" and there was the only building that had registered on my consciousness as being Texas School Book Depository. I was not aware, hadn't taken in the idea of there being two buildings and that there was one on Elm, though, I copied the address from the telephone book, and could well have made that notation in my mind but I didn't. The first I realized that there was a building on Elm was when I heard on the television on the morning of the 22nd of November that a shot had been fired from such a building."
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Now, sure, the fact that neither Ruth nor Marina knew that the TSBD building that Lee worked in was, indeed, on the exact motorcade route doesn't have to automatically mean that they would have no interest at all in going somewhere downtown to watch Kennedy in the parade. But that testimony I cited above certainly must be considered and taken into account (at least with respect to the ladies meeting up with Lee and having lunch together, etc.). And then when we add the "dental appointment" into the equation, that combination of things probably answers Cory's question of why Ruth and Marina didn't go downtown on 11/22/63.
Another (related) thought that just came to me....
I've often heard the very same question asked when talking about Jack Ruby too. Many people ask: Why didn't Ruby, who was a big Kennedy fan and supporter (not to mention a person who always liked to be "where the action is"), have any desire whatsoever to go downtown to see at least a portion of the Dallas motorcade on 11/22?
It's certainly not a bad question at all. And it's not a bad question as it pertains to Ruth and Marina too. Cory Santos, in fact, in this thread today [July 22, 2022], is the very first person that I am aware of who has ever asked that question (as it pertains to Ruth and Marina).
Maybe somebody can ask Ruth directly about this. (Does Max Good still have her ear?)
EDIT --- I certainly don't think that there's anything of a "conspiratorial" nature that can be made of the fact that Ruth and Marina (and Ruby too) didn't go downtown to watch the motorcade. But it's an interesting question to ask them nonetheless.
[A little bit later, I asked Cory this....]
Where do you want to go with this, Cory? Prior to Nov. 22, Ruth said she thought there was only ONE Depository building---that being the "warehouse" building (which was located on Houston St. just a short distance north of the 411 Elm building).
Ruth Paine wasn't really concerned with the exact address of the building at any time. Why would she be? (Yes, I know that if you're in the "Ruth Set Up & Framed LHO" camp, you must believe she most certainly WAS very interested in the exact address; but I don't belong in that camp, of course, so it's my view that Ruth couldn't have cared less exactly what street Lee Oswald worked on.)
[The next day, I added this comment....]
Another thing that could conceivably have played a factor in Ruth and Marina (well, Marina at least) not wanting to go downtown to the TSBD to meet up with Lee for lunch and to watch the parade is that Lee and Marina were in the middle of a week-long squabble that was still unresolved as of the morning of November 22nd. Under such strained circumstances between the two, is it likely that Marina would have suddenly said something like this to Ruth on Friday morning?: I've decided to make up with Lee right now. Let's go down to where he works and see him and watch the motorcade too.
David Von Pein
July 22-23, 2022
================================
PAT SPEER SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN THEN SAID ALL THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN ALSO SAID:
BTW / FWIW....
Dr. James Humes told the Warren Commission in no uncertain terms that "the wound in the anterior [front] portion of the lower neck is physically lower than the point of entrance posteriorly" [2 H 368].
PAT SPEER SAID THIS (the last post on this page).
DAVID VON PEIN SAID THIS.
[Also See ----> The Location Of JFK's Back Wound]
PAT SPEER SAID THIS AND THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
For Pete sake, what does common sense tell you about President Kennedy's wounds, Pat?
1.) A bullet hole of entry in JFK's upper back.
2.) A bullet hole in JFK's neck/throat.
3.) Not a single bullet located in JFK's body.
And this fourth item below needs to be tacked on here as an extra bonus in the "common sense" department, which is something that nobody (not even a CTer) can possibly argue with:
4.) Anybody wanting to kill President Kennedy would have to be a complete moron/idiot to have fired two very low-powered, non-lethal bullets into Kennedy's throat and upper back, which would result in both of those bullets penetrating JFK's body only a few inches (each) and causing virtually no damage to the President's body whatsoever. (But, hey, maybe the killers just wanted to give JFK a fighting chance to survive those TWO shots, right?)
Please get real!!
Do you, Patrick J. Speer, really think that somebody (or a team of covert "somebodies") dug two bullets out of JFK's body prior to (or during) his autopsy on 11/22/63?
Lacking the above hunk of covert silliness to explain the lack of bullets left inside Kennedy, what else do you have to offer to reconcile that "No Bullets In Kennedy" fact? Did BOTH of the missiles just fall out on their own---never to be seen by anyone at either Parkland or Bethesda?
Please lay out your scenario, because I'm anxious to hear what it is. (Yes, you've probably said it all before--on your website or here at the EF Forum--but please tell me again right now. Thanks.)
PAT SPEER SAID ALL THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
And, naturally, Pat Speer knows way more about these things than do the THREE professional pathologists who attended JFK's autopsy at Bethesda.
Let me remind you, Pat, what Drs. Humes, Boswell, and Finck concluded:
"The missile contused the strap muscles of the right side of the neck, damaged the trachea and made its exit through the anterior surface of the neck."
Let me guess----all three doctors who signed off on the above conclusions were rotten liars, right?
And here's what the Clark Panel said five years later (more liars here? Yes, I know you can't stand the Clark Panel either, but their conclusions are in black-&-white for all time anyway, whether you like it or not)....
"There is a track between the two cutaneous wounds as indicated by subcutaneous emphysema and small metallic fragments on the X-rays and the contusion of the apex of the right lung and laceration of the trachea described in the Autopsy Report. In addition, any path other than one between the two cutaneous wounds would almost surely have been intercepted by bone and the X-ray films show no bony damage in the thorax or neck."
Instant Replay....
"There is a track between the two cutaneous wounds..."
But CTers like Patrick Speer know WAY more than the four members of Ramsey Clark's panel. Right? (Phooey.)
It [the bullet hole in JFK's throat] wasn't "recorded" at all, since Dr. Malcolm Perry's trach obliterated all but a very small part of it. If by "recorded" you mean the testimony of Dr. Perry, et al, I guess you're convinced that when Perry told the WC that the throat wound could have been "either" an entry or an exit, he was being coerced or forced to do so? I, of course, would disagree. He was merely telling the truth as he saw it---i.e., that bullet hole could have a been either an entrance wound or an exit. No coercion necessary to tell a truth like that.
And, Pat, if I "suffer from a lack of imagination", as you said I do, I would have to counter that comment by saying that it's my opinion that most conspiracy theorists (including even you, Pat) suffer from an overabundance of imagination. (With the "discovery" of your make-believe entry wound in the back of JFK's head being a prime example of your very fertile imagination, plus your willingness to "see" things [like entry wounds] that simply aren't there.)
Get real (again), Pat!!
You're nuts if you think it was Vincent Bugliosi who convinced me the SBT is true. I was thoroughly convinced that the SBT was correct years before Vince's book came out. And it wasn't Bugliosi's participation in the London mock trial that convinced me of the SBT either. In fact, as you know, Vince supported the silly Z190 SBT timeline at that television trial in 1986, which he later had to revise for his book because he knew, as did I, that Z190 was simply absurd because it's way too early.
And calling Vincent Bugliosi "illogical" is akin to calling Donald J. Trump "sane".
Also: The theory that you call a "hoax" (the Single-Bullet Theory) has been endorsed by every official panel and commission that has looked into the JFK murder case. And the autopsy doctors started it off with the first two-thirds of the SBT by saying that one bullet definitely did pass through Kennedy's upper body. And that was a conclusion that was reached five days before Mr. Specter and the Warren Commission were ever tasked with their investigative duties. So why did Humes, et al, tell that big fat lie, Pat? Why did they want or NEED to do that? Please tell me.
I'll also add this....
I am not "reliant" on the conclusions of Arlen Specter or Dale Myers to help me decide whether to believe the SBT. The autopsy report, the Zapruder Film, and the basic knowledge about what a bullet can (and will) do when it is slowed down significantly are the main things needed for me to decide whether the SBT is a fact vs. being bullshit. Specter and Myers (and others) have helped solidify and firm up my pro-SBT opinions, yes. I don't deny that. But to quote Mr. Bugliosi --- "From the first moment that I heard that Specter had come up with the single-bullet theory, it made very little sense to me since the theory was so obvious that a child could author it."
PAT SPEER THEN SAID ALL THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Pat,
Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed posts. As usual, you have put up a good fight for your side.
I, like Vince Bugliosi, also think the JFK case is basically a "simple case". Physical evidence-wise, I'd say it's quite simple. (And none of the physical evidence in the case has ever been proven to have been tampered with or planted.)
The rifle that killed the President is Oswald's....the bullets and bullet fragments connected with the case are all from Oswald's rifle....the prints are mostly Oswald's....and Oswald's very own movements and actions on both November 21st and November 22nd (including LHO's obvious guilt in the murder of policeman J.D. Tippit on Tenth Street) are about as incriminating as you could possibly get. Certainly not the movements and actions of a "patsy".
Author Mark Fuhrman made two very good observations in his 2006 book,
"A Simple Act Of Murder", when he said:
"There is no exculpatory evidence that outweighs the accumulated proof against him [Lee Harvey Oswald]."
And:
"A cloud hangs over [President Kennedy's] murder and our nation because we refuse to accept what is so clearly the truth---that his assassination was a simple act of murder, committed by a man [Oswald] who left evidence proving his guilt."
David Von Pein
July 26-29, 2022
================================
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
And this is the kind of unverified and unsupportable mush that Jim DiEugenio actually thinks trumps Dale Myers' intense and decades-long research regarding the murder of J.D. Tippit?
Good Lord!
David Von Pein
July 29, 2022
================================
RON BULMAN SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
~~sigh~~
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/Gerald Ford And The SBT
David Von Pein
July 26, 2022
================================
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Most people seem to be convinced that the Mystery Wallet [at the Tippit murder scene] was definitely found lying on the ground beside Tippit's body. But where's the PROOF that that is true? IMO, it might very well be a wallet that never touched the ground next to Tippit's body at all. It could most certainly be the wallet of a witness at the scene. Why would anybody categorically eliminate such a possibility when such a possibility most certainly can never be totally ruled out?
My best guess is: It was Tippit's wallet.
Also....
Who the heck has ever speculated that the wallet would have just "fallen out" of a bystander's pocket? I've never heard anyone suggest any such thing.
There were several male witnesses there at the murder scene who could have conceivably handed their wallet to the police for some reason that day. Ted Callaway, IMO, being by far the most likely to have done so (given the incredible ballsy actions he took on 11/22).
David Von Pein
July 23, 2022
================================
PAT SPEER SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I totally agree with you on the Bill O'Reilly film. I wrote a little mini-review of the "Killing Kennedy" hunk of junk in November of 2013:
"Killing Kennedy [the 2013 TV movie] was absolutely horrible. While watching it, I had the feeling I was sitting through a non-stop series of mini movie trailers. That's the way it felt to me anyway. Short little scenes. Nothing fleshed out. And too many errors in the details to possibly mention them all. One of which was: They actually had pictures of Oswald visiting the Mexico City embassies. They just decided to invent some pictures that never existed, and then Hosty shows the pictures to Oswald after his arrest. A most curious fairy tale there. .... Too bad, too. Because Bill O'Reilly does have the bottom-line facts correct -- Oswald killed Kennedy and Tippit, and LHO took a shot at General Walker too. It's just a shame that the "Killing Kennedy" filmmakers tried to jam a six-hour story into ninety minutes." -- DVP; November 2013
David Von Pein
July 20, 2022
================================
BENJAMIN COLE SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
So, you can easily envision Oswald there in the Sniper's Nest, firing a rifle, but not to HIT Kennedy. Only to miss?
CTers can sometimes get to within a whisker of reality....but then they feel the need to back away from it for some reason.
Amazing.
David Von Pein
July 11, 2022
================================
SANDY LARSEN SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
The above assertion by Sandy Larsen is ridiculous. The 2nd-Floor Lunchroom Encounter has not been "debunked" by anybody. Those who think they've debunked it are, as usual, merely engaging in more wishful thinking.
There is no doubt whatsoever, in the mind of a reasonable person who is capable of properly evaluating the evidence, that Marrion Baker positively did encounter Lee Oswald in the second-floor lunchroom on November 22nd.
RON BULMAN SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
To think that someone within "Officialdom" somehow got all of these various people (Lovelady, Shelley, Baker, Truly, and maybe more?) to tell a bunch of lies just so the official "patsy framers" could say the second-floor lunchroom encounter took place is something that I think all reasonable people would consider to be a totally FANTASTIC [i.e., fanciful] idea. And it's a fantastic idea that I don't think the conspiracy theorists have nearly enough support for.
Also....
Why is it that so many people who weren't charged with committing two murders (e.g., Marrion Baker, Roy Truly, Ruth Paine, Buell Frazier, et al) are accused of being liars in the JFK case, and the person who was charged with two murders is treated with kid gloves by so many conspiracists? Isn't that also a rather "fantastic" idea? (I think it is.)
David Von Pein
July 9-10, 2022
================================
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
The "Prayer Man" figure could very easily be a non-TSBD person (i.e., a total stranger).
A stranger, who might have been looking for a good place to watch the motorcade from, might very well have climbed to the top of the Depository stairs in order to view the parade from that vantage point. And no one can possibly prove that such a scenario didn't happen.
ROGER ODISIO SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Ask Buell Wesley Frazier if he thinks the view was lousy. Frazier, in his more recent interviews, has said that he had the best seat in the house (when referring to his parade-watching location on the top step of the TSBD). And he was standing practically right next to "Prayer Man".
And if the view was so darn lousy, why did that "pack of Depository employees" [Roger Odisio's quote] decide to use those steps as a place to watch? Were they nailed to the steps or something? Or were all those employees just plain idiots?
DAVID VON PEIN ALSO SAID:
The films are just too low-quality and indistinct to allow us to make anything close to a positive identification of the Prayer Man figure. And that must, indeed, be very frustrating for many conspiracy believers who think Oswald was innocent of the assassination. Heck, it's even frustrating for me as well, because I'd like to know for sure who the PM figure is too.
But there are many things that tell me PM is not LHO. The biggest of which is the fact that Oswald himself didn't tell the waiting press---on Live TV---that he was outside on the steps when JFK was being shot---and that was right after LHO was asked, point-blank, "were you in the building at the time?". And that live television broadcast at 7:55 PM CST on Nov. 22 was a TV broadcast that could not have been controlled by the "evil" DPD.
DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:
I was looking at Buell Wesley Frazier's Facebook page, and I noticed the following post written by Mr. Frazier in March of 2021 concerning the topic of "Prayer Man":
"To answer the question about Prayer Man: I have been looking at this all day, and I can tell you this: I 100% have no idea who that person is. I can also tell you 100% that is not Lee Harvey Oswald. First, Lee was not out there. I know that to be true. Second, for anyone who thinks Prayer Man is Lee, the individual has a much larger frame than Lee." -- Buell Wesley Frazier; March 28, 2021
RON BULMAN SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Did everybody connected with this case have a "handler", Ron?
David Von Pein
July 7-9, 2022
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DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Despite what some CTers have said, one thing I do know for a fact is that Ruth Paine could not have known for a fact on October 14, 1963, what the exact motorcade route through Dallas was going to be. And, hence, she also could not have known for a fact on Oct. 14th that the Texas School Book Depository Building would be a viable location to place a "patsy" named Oswald on 11/22/63.
David Von Pein
July 1, 2022
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DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
IMO, the Single-Bullet Theory is a virtual certainty. No other anti-SBT alternative comes within fifty miles of matching the single-bullet conclusion.
Do CTers really think that all of this shrugging and flinching and mouth-opening and grimacing and hat-flipping and lapel-flipping on the part of John Connally is being caused by something OTHER than a bullet? Really?....
(2).gif)
David Von Pein
July 1, 2022
================================
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yes, Roger, let's all feel sorry for poor Lee Oswald, who claims he wants a lawyer and then refuses the help of Mr. Nichols. How much sense does that make? Apparently he's got to have a specific lawyer (Abt). I guess no other attorney would do. But beggars can't always be choosers, can they?
Pardon me if I shed no tears for Mr. Oswald and his "They won't let me have any legal representation" crap.
And I am sorry if I'm coming across as brusque or uncaring when I speak of the plight Lee Oswald found himself in while in the custody of the DPD. But knowing the evidence that exists against Oswald as I do know it in BOTH cases of murder he was charged with in 1963, it's very difficult for me to muster any measure of sympathy or compassion for LHO at all. I guess I am biased against Oswald. But overwhelming evidence has a tendency to do that sometimes.
PAT SPEER SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
"Cajoled" I can easily believe (and even expect) from a guy in Fritz' occupation. But have you got any proof regarding that "lied" allegation, Pat?
PAT SPEER'S ANSWER TO MY LAST
QUESTION IS HERE.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Pat,
Thank you for your last post above. Many of the things you said do make sense.
Although I have no proof either, I have a feeling that the scenario you talked about in this portion of your last post is probably a tactic that some police officers have, indeed, employed (especially in a case where the police had a lot of physical evidence against the suspect):
"I remember coming across some books on law enforcement techniques saying it was perfectly okay for an interrogator to lie to a suspect--the classic ones being that someone saw them do it or that their presumed colleague had already fingered them--to get them to cooperate." -- P. Speer
DAVID VON PEIN ALSO SAID:
I'm a little bit perplexed by this comment of yours, Pat:
"...it follows that Wade and Fritz had almost certainly caused the deaths of men who would have been found innocent should they not have confessed after being lied to by Fritz."
Are you implying here that many of the Henry Wade cases that have recently been overturned in Dallas County (due to new DNA results being available) are cases in which the arrested suspects actually confessed to crimes they never committed?
Even if Fritz and Wade had lied to those suspects about certain things, why would a completely innocent person want to confess to something he didn't do?
Can you elaborate, Pat?
PAT SPEER ELABORATED HERE.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Thanks for another informative post, Pat.
I guess I was just unaware that the act of confessing to a crime you never committed was so widespread and (somewhat) commonplace in the law enforcement world.
A person would, indeed, have to be very "mentally deficient" to do something like that.
W. TRACY PARNELL SAID THIS.
RON BULMAN SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I wonder if a single one of those "scapegoats" behaved the way Lee Harvey Oswald behaved on November 21st and 22nd, 1963?
Let me know if any of them did.
TOM GRAM SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
My thanks to Mr. Tom Gram at The Education Forum for his last post above, plus some other good observations he has made since recently joining that forum on June 26, 2022.
David Von Pein
July 6-31, 2022
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DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Some photo-related material....
Here's another new addition to my "Dealey Plaza" Photo Gallery page....
From May of 1952....
Source: Robin Unger's Photo Gallery....
A discussion related to this 1952 picture is here.
David Von Pein
July 25, 2022
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DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Some video material....
Here's a nine-minute video from the 1970s depicting Dealey Plaza in Dallas, plus a somewhat eerie trip up the back stairs to the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository:
Click the logos below to watch each network's 11/22/63 television coverage:
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David Von Pein
June 30—July 31, 2022
