BERNIE LAVERICK SAID:
David, I have asked this question a few times on here, but as yet no one has dared to give an answer. Even a ridiculous one! Maybe you could tell me when YOU think Oswald first made the decision to kill Kennedy.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
The answer to that question can never be known. You know that. Everybody knows it's an unanswerable question, and different people will have different opinions about it.
My own "opinion" is that he probably made the decision to try to make an attempt on JFK's life sometime on Wednesday evening, November 20th. He then asks Wes Frazier for the unusual ride to Irving on Thursday morning and LHO invents his "curtain rod" lie at that time.
So it's pretty clear that by Thursday AM, he had it in his mind to make an attempt on JFK's life.
But on Thursday night, per Marina, LHO says that he would get an apartment in Dallas "tomorrow" if she would agree to come back to Dallas with him to live right away. So it's highly unlikely he would have taken that rifle to work with him on Friday if Marina had said "Yes".
The rest is history, of course. LHO took his rifle to work on Nov. 22 and got extremely lucky when he found himself completely alone on the sixth floor at exactly 12:30.
If Bonnie Ray Williams (or other employees) had been up there on the sixth floor at 12:30, there is no way, IMO, that Oswald would have fired a single shot at JFK.
So, yes, Oswald was one LUCKY Presidential assassin on November 22, 1963. No question about that. But he WAS a Presidential assassin that day. There's no question about THAT either.
J. RAYMOND CARROLL SAID:
In the immortal words of John McEnroe:
YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS!
Lee Oswald never harmed anyone.
YOU GUYS ARE BUSY COVERING UP THE REAL KILLERS!
JACK WHITE SAID:
Good grief! Von Pain [sic] is back.
BERNIE LAVERICK SAID:
Yes, David, of course patsies have incriminating evidence on them. If not they wouldn't be patsies, would they?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Oh, sure. And the police in the Texas Theater just shoved the Smith & Wesson .38 into Oswald's hands in the theater and whispered to him --
"Hey, Lee, would you be kind enough to go along with this patsy plot we're undertaking today, and take this gun and act like you want to shoot a bunch of us cops with it? How 'bout it, buddy? Will you help us out with this thing? I'll buy you a beer (or a Dr. Pepper) if you do."
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
DVP likes to make up unlikely scenarios that he can then ridicule. All the time ignoring much more likely ones that he cannot.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Oh, sure. It's much MUCH more "likely" for the revolver to have been "planted" on Oswald in the theater than it is to believe Johnny Brewer and all of the cops who were there (who all said Oswald pulled the gun out of his waist and tried to shoot some people with it) -- right Jim?
Jim, please stop! You know my bladder is a very weak one!
DAVID VON PEIN ALSO SAID:
BTW, on John McAdams' moderated forum at alt.assassination.jfk, one of my very favorite "LNers" chimed in today with this excellent message about The Education Forum that I wanted to share:
[Quote On:]
"Hey David, good to see you back stirring up the retards on the Education Forum. It's unbelievable the type of responses your return is generating. One stupid idea after another offered, they've created this image of Oswald and just plug in everything into this mythical creation.
A lot of things said in the one post you started about Oswald's room had me shaking my head, but this one by Bernie Laverick has to be the topper...
"Yes, David, of course patsies have incriminating evidence on them. If not they wouldn't be patsies, would they?"
Mind-numbingly retarded on many different levels. How can you tell innocent people from guilty people if not by incriminating evidence (in fact, it seems the incriminating evidence is seen as an indicator of Oswald's innocence)?
Who carries things that they don't know the "whys" about? Oswald was taken alive, why isn't he making any effort to set the record straight about this incriminating evidence he is caught with? [The] kooks just have a flawed way of looking at things, and nothing anyone can do is going to change that."
-- Bud; August 3, 2010
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
See, unlike the world of Reclaiming History, we all know that the FBI lied, distorted, manipulated and manufactured evidence in this case. It started the very day of the assassination with the FBI call to Tomlinson telling him to shut up about the bullet he found.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I don't believe for a single solitary second that the FBI called up Darrell Tomlinson on the night of the assassination and told him to "shut up" about the bullet he found. I find it impossible to believe that the FBI actually said those two words ("shut up") to Tomlinson.
My guess is that the conspiracy author who wrote about that FBI phone call to Tomlinson was putting a nice healthy layer of "conspiracy spin" on the whole thing. And it's possible that Tomlinson himself was putting a layer of CT spin on the story too. Tomlinson, after all, is a man who told the Warren Commission no fewer than TEN TIMES that he was "not sure" which stretcher he had taken off of the elevator at Parkland, and yet Darrell's memory improved greatly in the 24 years following his 1964 WC session, when he told the PBS-TV cameras in 1988 that he was absolutely positive that the stretcher he took from the elevator was the stretcher that did NOT have a bullet on it.
What very likely happened is this:
The FBI called up Darrell Tomlinson (which, I'll admit, is a telephone call that the FBI could have possibly made), and since it was very late on Nov. 22, it probably meant that Oswald had already been formally charged with the murder of President Kennedy (LHO was officially charged with the assassination at 11:26 PM CST on Nov. 22).
The FBI, knowing that Tomlinson had found a bullet on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital, then told Tomlinson it would probably be a good idea not to discuss the details of his finding that bullet with anyone until Oswald's court trial could take place.
Yes, the above scenario is just a guess on my part. But it makes a lot of (common) sense to me. And I certainly don't believe for a minute that the FBI was involved in any kind of a cover-up or a conspiracy in connection with the stretcher bullet that Tomlinson found at Parkland. And I'd bet the farm that the words "shut up" were never uttered by any FBI agent during the course of any telephone call between the Federal Bureau of Investigation and Darrell C. Tomlinson.
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
DVP [in this post] is actually using the Klein's money order to prove that Oswald used the alias Hidell.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
LOL. Of course I am. And any rational, sensible, reasonable person would do the very same thing.
Jim apparently thinks a key piece of evidence like the money order Lee Oswald made out to Klein's Sporting Goods is supposed to be IGNORED and/or DISMISSED.
How nice and convenient for you, Jim, that you feel so comfortable merely dismissing the testimony of the handwriting experts.
Of course, as we all know, Jim and his fellow Anybody But Oswald groupies don't have the slightest hesitation whatsoever in throwing ALL of the evidence that points to Patsy Oswald out the nearest window.
My, how convenient.
It means NOTHING to Jim D. and the ABO crowd that every official investigative committee who has ever looked into JFK's murder has determined that LEE HARVEY OSWALD killed President Kennedy.
The irrevocable fact that has BOTH the Warren Commission AND the House Select Committee coming to the same conclusion about OSWALD being the only person in Dealey Plaza who hit any victim with any bullets on November 22 is a fact that people like Jim DiEugenio will totally ignore.
Mind-boggling....isn't it?
DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:
[Lee] Farley is citing passages from John "Two LHOs & Two Marguerites" Armstrong to bolster his claims about the wallet.
Hilarious.
JACK WHITE SAID:
VonPain [sic] obviously does not know how many Marguerites there were.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Ohhhh, my poor, poor bladder!
A CONSPIRACY THEORIST SAID:
William Whaley claims his reenactment took him 9 minutes to get from where he picked Oswald up to the rooming house and that was when the lights went his way.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yes, cab driver William W. Whaley did say it took "nine minutes" to perform one of the re-enactments from Greyhound to Beckley and Neely [at 2 H 259]. But you're leaving out the other re-enactment, which was performed on the same day Whaley gave additional testimony in front of the Warren Commission (April 8, 1964).
In that second re-enactment with Whaley and Warren Commission counsel member David W. Belin present, the cab ride was reconstructed from the Greyhound bus terminal to the intersection of Beckley Avenue and Neely Street in Oak Cliff (which is where Whaley said Oswald got out of the taxicab).
That 4/8/64 re-creation was timed by stopwatch at 5 minutes and 30 seconds [see 6 H 434 and WCR Page 163].
DAVID BELIN -- "When we went out there today, when we started the stopwatch from the Greyhound bus station to the 700 block of North Beckley, do you know about how many minutes that was on the stop watch?"
WILLIAM WHALEY -- "A little more than 5 minutes, between 5 and 6 minutes."
MR. BELIN -- "Would your trip that day, on November 22, have been longer or shorter, or about the same time as the trip we took today?"
MR. WHALEY -- "It would be approximately the same time, sir, give or take a few seconds, not minutes. Because the man drove just about as near to my driving as possible. We made every light that I made, and we stopped on the lights that I stopped on."
MR. BELIN -- "Let the record show that the stopwatch was 5 minutes and 30 seconds from the commencement of the ride to the end of the ride."
WILLIAM KELLY SAID:
So Dave,
Why do you think Oswald had Whaley drive him FIVE blocks past his rooming house, so then he had to walk back?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Simple, Bill. The reason was very likely two-fold on Oswald's part:
LHO didn't want the cab driver to know exactly where he lived. And #2 (which is even a better reason IMO), he wanted to see if any police or strangers were lurking near 1026 Beckley. After all, he had just killed the President, and he had to know that the cops would be hot on his trail very soon.
Yes, he could, of course, have checked the immediate area around his roominghouse for cop cars and "strangers", etc., and then have Whaley let him out just a few yards beyond the roominghouse, which would have made the walk back to his room much shorter. But he didn't do that. And since nobody can read his mind on this issue, we'll never know for sure exactly why Oswald did all of the things he did on November 22. But we know he DID do them.
And: Oswald also knew that nobody at the TSBD had his Beckley address, so that fact would buy him some extra time to go get his revolver (and, no, I don't know why he would not have taken his Smith & Wesson revolver with him to work on 11/22; the reason there, IMO, is likely because he would have needed to take the revolver into work at the Depository Building TWICE [and transport the gun in Wes Frazier's car TWICE too], because of his unusual Thursday trip to Irving; perhaps he thought Frazier might see it and start asking questions, with Frazier possibly putting 2 & 2 together and then saying something to somebody about LHO having a gun; I really don't know).
I also think it's quite possible that Oswald just simply forgot his revolver when he left for work on Thursday, the 21st. His plan to murder JFK was, indeed, slipshod and half-assed in some ways. And it certainly reeks of being "last minute" (or nearly so, relatively-speaking).
But, hey, it's hard to argue with success, isn't it? He achieved his primary goal of killing the President, despite a slipshod getaway plan.
Too many people criticize the way Oswald did things on Nov. 21 and 22, 1963. But, as mentioned, it's hard to knock perfection. And Oswald achieved "perfection", from his point-of-view -- he assassinated the person he was attempting to assassinate.
BTW, Oswald was driven only THREE blocks past his roominghouse, Bill. Not five. LHO had Whaley drop him off in the 700 block of N. Beckley, instead of travelling all the way to the 500 block, which LHO originally told Whaley was his destination.
LEE FARLEY SAID:
Now you are saying that you want to use the official Whaley reenactment time of 5 minutes, 30 seconds. That's fine. Use the official WC timing. Will you also be using the official Warren Commission timing of Oswald's walk from Beckley to Patton? 17 minutes and 45 seconds. Are you going to use this in your timeline, Dave?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You obviously cannot read. Because David Belin fully explains at 6 H 434 that the 17:45 timing was the "LONG WAY AROUND ROUTE". Taking a more direct route (plus moving a little faster than the "AVERAGE WALKING PACE" that was utilized during the Commission's 17:45 trip) would have shaved considerable time off of that 17-minute journey.
Who's cherry-picking now, Lee? You seem to leave out quite a few important addendums when talking about the evidence (like Belin's "Long Way Around Route" verbiage).
LEE FARLEY SAID:
Why are you showing me a picture of a brand spanking new bus ticket? Oh, wait. That's "THE" bus ticket, isn't it? The one that had a fight with 10 police officers? I forgot about the third tactic that you and your ilk use, didn't I? I defined two. The "Who shot JFK then?" fall back position. The "How many people were involved in the massive conspiracy?" fall back position. And now we add the "So how many people were liars then?" fall back position.
If it wasn't so predictable, it would be somewhat amusing.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
All three of those "fall back" positions are perfectly reasonable. You only mock them because you have no reasonable answers to combat them.
Your silly Anybody-But-Oswald theory requires the coordination of dozens upon dozens (maybe hundreds) of people, cutting across all walks of life (both civilians and otherwise), working in concert to frame your innocent, snow-white patsy named Lee Harvey.
So, now the bus ticket is a plant too. Great. What's next? Oswald's brown shirt which was consistent with the fibers found in the rifle's butt plate? Was that shirt planted right on his back on November 22?
BTW, please prove to the world that a paper bus transfer that was in a person's shirt pocket MUST be mutilated beyond recognition after a brief scuffle with police officers in a theater. I'd like to see that proof.
If you ABO nutjobs weren't so predictable....you'd still be predictable (and really, really silly, to boot).
LEE FARLEY SAID:
How long does Oswald have to walk the distance to kill Tippit at 1:09 PM? I've walked the distance myself. It took me just under 20 minutes.
But granted, I didn't know the area very well and it wasn't the best of neighborhoods, so I didn't want to draw attention to myself by walking too quickly. Hey, a bit like Oswald.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
The trip from 1026 Beckley to the Tippit murder scene has been done in about 11 minutes, Lee. You know that.
And the most important re-creations are the ones that can determine (if possible) the MINIMUM amount of time that these things can be done in -- like the cab re-enactments. We've got two conflicting times, yes. No doubt about that. We've got a nine-minute trip and a 5.5-minute trip.
But since we know beyond all doubt that the trip can be made in 5-and-a-half minutes, why on Earth would the Warren Commission assume that the nine-minute trip is more reasonable, even though they also knew darn well that maybe Oswald and Whaley made the cab trip in just 5.5 minutes?
Another LNer at another forum pointed out a similar line of thought regarding the re-creations of Oswald's alleged movements when he went from the sixth-floor Sniper's Nest to the second-floor lunch room.
The other LNer made a good point in asking (in essence): Why in the world didn't the WC and FBI do a reconstruction of Oswald's movements AT THE FASTEST SPEED POSSIBLE by Secret Service agent John Joe Howlett (who is the SS man who performed two such re-creations in the TSBD in 1964 for the Warren Commission)?
But the Warren Commission and Howlett didn't perform a "FASTEST TIME POSSIBLE" re-creation. If they had, Howlett would certainly have been able to shave quite a few seconds off of his two "walking" times.
Howlett did one reconstruction at a "normal walk", which was 78 seconds; and he performed another re-creation at a "fast walk", which only shaved four seconds off his time, with the "fast walk" re-creation clocking in at 74 seconds.
But an out-and-out RUNNING re-creation would have resulted, quite obviously, in a much quicker time on the stopwatch -- probably well under 60 seconds.
But, even though the WC did not perform such a "fastest time possible" test, Howlett (even while WALKING) was able to get to the second floor in only 78 seconds, which was a few seconds ahead of Marrion Baker's average of 82.5 seconds for his two re-creations of his November 22 movements.
I wonder why more conspiracy theorists never bother to take note of the raw FACTS that I just mentioned in my last paragraph? (Maybe it's because such raw FACTS would shoot to hell their silly notion that they've embraced for decades, and that is the notion/myth that Oswald could not possibly have made it from the Sniper's Nest to the lunchroom in under two minutes.)
David Von Pein
August 2-21, 2010
November 21, 2016
