SEAN MURPHY SAID:
From a report filed 11/22 by Captain Will Fritz [re: Marrion Baker]:
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
That is a strange statement, Sean. Because according to Marrion Baker's own Warren Commission testimony, he never saw Oswald in a lineup. He did see LHO at the police station on 11/22, but it wasn't during an official police lineup.
But we know that the man Baker saw in the lunchroom was positively Lee Oswald due to the confirmation of that fact by Roy S. Truly. Somebody must have written up that report incorrectly about Baker actually IDing LHO in a "lineup".
But such an error certainly doesn't change any of the basic facts pertaining to Marrion Baker--because we KNOW Baker encountered OSWALD in the lunchroom shortly after the assassination. That fact is not even debatable due to all of Roy Truly's statements and testimony (coupled with Baker's own statements and testimony, plus his affidavit).
From Marrion L. Baker's WC session:
Mr. DULLES - You saw Oswald later in the lineup or later...
Mr. BAKER - I never did have a chance to see him in the lineup. I saw him when I went to give the affidavit, the statement that I saw him down there, of the actions of myself and Mr. Truly as we went into the building and on up what we are discussing now.
Mr. DULLES - I didn't get clearly in mind, I am trying to check up, as to whether you saw Oswald maybe in the same costume later in the day. Did you see Oswald later in the day of November 22nd?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. DULLES - Under what circumstances? Don't go into detail, I just want to tie up these two situations.
Mr. BAKER - As I was in the homicide office there writing this, giving this affidavit, I got hung in one of those little small offices back there, while the Secret Service took Mr. Oswald in there and questioned him and I couldn't get out by him while they were questioning him, and I did get to see him at that time.
Mr. DULLES - You saw him for a moment at that time?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
MORE MARRION BAKER STUFF:
Oswald, Baker, Truly, & The Coke
Reconstructing The Steps Of An Assassin
Dr. Pepper Talk
WILLIAM KELLY SAID:
David, thanks for posting your comments on the coke and Dr. Pepper and the written statements of both Baker and Truly signed on Sept. 23, 1964, at the specific request of Arthur Goldberg [sic; his name is really Alfred Goldberg], the day before the Warren Report was issued. Goldberg is still alive, and was working at the Pentagon as an historian until a few years ago, when I talked with him on the phone. He also wrote a book about 9/11.
But I don't believe that Goldberg was trying to track down the false rumor that someone else was in the Second Floor lunchroom besides Oswald, Baker and Truly. I think that he just belatedly realized what Harold Weisberg said -- the encounter in the lunchroom is Oswald's alibi.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I think you're wrong about that, Bill. And the reason I think you're wrong is because of the Warren Commission text that is attached to those 9/23/64 FBI reports regarding Truly and Baker.
CE3035 and CE3076 (the Baker/Truly statements from 9/23/64) are mentioned as source material in the Warren Report [on page 648] in the "Speculations And Rumors" appendix, connected to the rumor that other people might have been in the lunchroom with Oswald ----> Click Here.
That's telling me the probable reason for taking those eleventh-hour statements from two people (Baker & Truly) who had already submitted affidavits and testimony to the Warren Commission.
And in both of those September 23rd statements, FBI Agent Burnett (who is the person who almost certainly wrote the words we find in those two handwritten documents, with Baker and Truly then signing them and initialling any corrections) specifically mentions the fact that nobody else was in the lunchroom except Oswald.
Yes, it's true that other things are mentioned in those statements too, but the key thing is confirming the fact (for the record) that nobody else was there other than LHO. (And that fact was not brought out specifically in the WC testimony of Baker or Truly.)
WILLIAM KELLY SAID:
And not because Oswald couldn't have gotten to the lunchroom in time, he could have, but he didn't because if he had just gone through that door that Baker saw him through the window, Truly would have seen him, and he didn't.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
That's a mighty weak argument in an effort to exonerate Oswald, who, you just admitted "could have" made it from the sixth-floor Sniper's Nest to the lunchroom in the allotted time. Truly probably just wasn't scanning every inch of every doorway on his way up the stairs -- but Officer Baker (being a trained police officer) WAS doing such scanning. Baker saw Oswald through the door's window, while Truly didn't. Simple as that.
Jean Davison said something a couple months ago that deserves a replay:
"Unlike every other employee, Oswald just happened [to] be near the shooter's likely escape route shortly after the shooting? Is that bad luck or what?" -- Jean Davison; May 4, 2013
That's food for "lunchroom" thought...isn't it Bill?
WILLIAM KELLY SAID:
While I appreciate Jean's work and logic, and I'm glad she's thinking about the escape of the real assassin, rather than Oswald, I don't think luck has anything to do with it.
Sure, Oswald could have gotten to the second floor lunchroom vestibule before Truly, and hung out there until Baker came along, but it's highly unlikely that Truly did not see someone walking through a door directly in front of him. More likely he was just passing by the door window when Baker got to the top of the steps, and that he left the lunchroom with the coke by the same door he entered.
As for the escape of the actual assassin, from all accounts the man in the brown sports coat came down those steps first and went out the back door, while someone--the sniper or his spotter--stuck around the sniper's nest for quite a few minutes, four or five, long enough to rearrange the boxes and to place the bullet shells in position and whatever else he was doing -- in no hurry to get out of there. And the sniper's lair wasn't discovered by Sheriff Mooney for over a half hour, long enough to play more than a few games of domino. Mooney also said he passed someone on the stairs coming down -- who was that?
Therefore, I think that the real assassin, no hurries, no worries, played it by the book -- and like the Patsy, was an employee or contractor of the TSBD, or was a cop who joined the search.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I think your above speculation is silly, Bill.
You think the real killers just decided to hang around the Sniper's Nest for "four or five" minutes? And they were in "no hurry" whatsoever to vacate the sixth floor and head out of Dodge right after having just murdered the President from that very same sixth floor?
In a word -- Ridiculous.
SEAN MURPHY SAID:
Oswald never realized the significance of the exchange with Geneva Hine in the office. He never realized he had an alibi.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
As Rochester Van Jones would say to Jack Benny: "Oh boss, come now!!"
And those patsy-framing conspirators (who apparently were employed by "Idiots Inc.") just allowed their one and only patsy to wander around the lower floors of the building at the precise moment when they needed him up on the 6th floor to frame him.
Brilliant plotters, those men.
And then they also decided it was wise to fire shots at the President from multiple directions, thereby ensuring their "patsy" plot would fail (as if allowing the patsy to garner an ironclad alibi wasn't a big enough gaffe).
SEAN MURPHY SAID:
Jean [Davison] appears not to have heard of Jack Dougherty! Rookie error.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Of course Jean has heard of Jack Dougherty. And Jean's far from being a "rookie". She wrote a fine book on Oswald 30 years ago.
But anyone who reads through Jack Dougherty's Warren Commission testimony should know that it is a complete mess. His timing of when he did things and when he supposedly heard the gunshots is a total disaster. Here's what I mean:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/jack-dougherty.html
Back to this quote of Jean Davison's again for a moment:
"Unlike every other employee, Oswald just happened [to] be near the shooter's likely escape route shortly after the shooting? Is that bad luck or what?" -- J. Davison; May 2013
Jean's comment repeated above should be looked at from another context and point-of-view too -- that is: Oswald is certainly "unlike every other employee" when we COMBINE both of these things listed below:
1.) Oswald was positively located "near the shooter's likely escape route" within just two minutes of the assassination.
And:
2.) Oswald was "unlike every other employee" in the Book Depository because it was HIS RIFLE (not another employee's) that was found on the sixth floor after the assassination. And his rifle was found very near the same staircase that Oswald was also very near within just two minutes after that very same rifle was used by somebody to fire bullets at President Kennedy.
When adding #1 and #2 together, these words written by Jean certainly do apply to Lee Harvey Oswald if he were innocent of shooting the President -- "Is that bad luck or what?"
SEAN MURPHY SAID:
Spin away all you like, David, it doesn't change the fact that Jack Dougherty "just happened [to] be near the shooter's likely escape route shortly after the shooting". Jean goofed up, and royally.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You can't prove that. Certainly not by utilizing Dougherty's jigsaw puzzle which represents his testimony. As I said, it's a mess. His testimony reminds me of all the conspiracy theories -- a certifiable disaster area.
SEAN MURPHY SAID:
If Dougherty's testimony is such a mess, such a certifiable disaster area, then we cannot say with any assurance that it was he who took the west freight elevator off the fifth floor while Baker and Truly were going up the stairs. Correct?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I'd put a big ol' grain of salt by my side when evaluating anything in Dougherty's testimony. Here are several good examples:
Mr. BALL - Did you know that the President was going to pass in a motorcade that noon?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, they said something about it.
Mr. BALL - Did you intend to go out and watch him?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I would have loved to have went out and watched him, but the steps were so crowded---there was no way in the world I could get out there.
~big shrug~
Jack apparently didn't realize there was more than one exit in the TSBD. He felt the ONLY way outside was through the front entrance.
~another shrug~
====================
Mr. BALL - On the day that this happened, on the 22nd of November, you told the FBI agents Ellington and Anderson that you heard "a loud explosion which sounded like a rifle shot coming from the next floor above me." Now, did you tell them that it sounded like a rifle shot, coming from the next floor above you, or didn't you?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I believe I told them it sounded like a car backfiring.
Mr. BALL - Well, did you tell them it sounded like it was from the floor above you, or didn't you tell them that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.
Mr. BALL - You did not tell them that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.
Mr. BALL - Did it sound like it came from the floor above you?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, at the time it did--yes.
I guess Dougherty must have thought there was a '62 Chevy Impala "backfiring" up on the sixth floor, huh?
=====================
Mr. BALL - When you went up to the sixth floor, it was after they found the shotgun and shells?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
So, Dougherty is now saying he was on the sixth floor AFTER 1:22 PM CST on November 22nd. Joe Ball was probably pulling his hair out while trying to comprehend this incoherent mess that is Jack D.'s testimony.
======================
Mr. BALL - Are you sure you were on the fifth floor when you heard the shots?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, I'm positive.
Mr. BALL - Did you see any other employee on the fifth floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No, sir; I didn't see nobody. There wasn't nobody on the fifth floor at all. It was just myself.
======================
Mr. BALL - Now, did you hear this shot either before or after lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - It was before lunch; it was before lunch.
Mr. BALL - You think it was before lunch you heard the shot?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I believe it was--yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - And you were alone, were you?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Here we have a replay of the previous humorous moment regarding Dougherty's "before lunch" declaration. How could anyone POSSIBLY believe Dougherty's "Before Lunch" testimony above? Especially when we also find this exchange within the very same day's WC testimony:
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I went back downstairs to eat lunch.
Mr. BALL - What time?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, it was 12 o'clock.
Your witness, Perry.
IAN KINGSBURY SAID:
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, then immediately I heard a loud noise---it sounded like a car backfiring, and I came back down to the first floor, and I asked Eddie Piper, I said, "Piper, what was that?" I says, "Has the President been shot?" He said, "Yes."
Mr. BALL - You didn't say--did you say, "Has the President been shot?"---you told the FBI agent that you went down to the first floor and you saw a man named Eddie Piper and asked him if he heard a loud noise.
Who's telling the story here?
Who's the next witness that did not see Oswald?
And who was Officer Denham escorting from the third floor for "Acting suspiciously"?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Nice job, Ian. Cast doubt and suspicion on everybody except the owner of that gun up on the sixth floor. And that gun owner just happened to be located in the northwest corner of the building two minutes after shots were fired from OSWALD'S GUN.
But keeping Oswald's skirts tidy and neat seems to be the only thing conspiracy theorists are interested in doing.
What a silly hobby.
SEAN MURPHY SAID:
So--is it your belief that Jack Dougherty took the west freight elevator off the fifth floor before Baker and Truly came up on to the fifth floor landing?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
That's possible. But it had to have been after Baker & Truly had started up the stairs, because both freight elevators were stuck on upper floors when B&T first got to the elevators.
SEAN MURPHY SAID:
It's only "possible"? That's very interesting, for it means that--in your opinion--we cannot state with any reasonable degree of assurance that it was Dougherty who brought that west freight elevator down between Baker & Truly's starting up the stairs and their reaching the fifth floor.
Thanks, David.
PAT SPEER SAID:
Good job, Sean, of illuminating the Dougherty dilemma in the eyes of single-assassin theorists. They need him to lack credibility, so they can dispute his comments about seeing Oswald in the morning without a package, etc. But they need him to have credibility, so they can say he took the elevator down from the fifth floor while Baker and Truly ran up the stairs.
Hey, David, how about we evaluate Dougherty's statements on their own merits? And treat Dougherty--who was almost certainly mentally challenged--like any other witness?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
And CTers love to ignore the fact that Dougherty said he only saw Oswald "out of the corner of my eye" when Oswald came into the TSBD on 11/22.
Does a single conspiracy book EVER mention that part of Jack Dougherty's testimony when the subject of "WHO ELSE BESIDES FRAZIER AND RANDLE SAW OSWALD WITH THE PAPER BAG?" comes up?
I've yet to hear of one conspiracist ever mention that important testimony.
Why?
Because they like to promote the idea that Dougherty HAD to have seen Oswald with a bag if he had been carrying one that morning. But how much detail can YOU pick up out of the corner of your own eye?
So it's a game that will never end. I'll always point out the "corner of my eye" testimony that CTers refuse to ever mention. And CTers will point out the elevator stuff as it relates to Dougherty, and they'll ask -- Well, Dave, how come Mr. Dougherty didn't see Oswald go by him as LHO was racing from the sixth floor down to the fifth where Jack D. was?
My answer: I haven't the foggiest. But I certainly don't think Dougherty HAD to absolutely see Oswald go by. Perhaps they just barely missed each other that day. Why is that an impossibility?
[Also see my further comments on this subject later in this post and in the Education Forum post linked HERE.]
WILLIAM KELLY SAID:
Wait a minute David,
How do you classify 80% of the people as silly conspiracy theorists who are wasting their time on a hobby? My hobby is to try to determine the truth.
[...]
We certainly are going to cast doubt on anyone except the owner of the gun once we determine that the owner of the gun wasn't even on the sixth floor when shots were fired from there.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
That's a CT fantasy, Bill. Nothing more. Oswald's gun was on the sixth floor that day. And so was Oswald--at 12:30.
And you surely cannot believe that the vast majority of the proverbial "80%" figure that you talk about is composed of CTers who are remotely similar to people like us on the Internet -- i.e., people who spend untold hours going over these same JFK points day after day and year after year....can you, Bill?
90% of that "80%" probably couldn't even tell you who Jesse Curry is. Or Ruth Paine. Or J.D. Tippit.
SEAN MURPHY SAID:
David von Pein [sic] has made clear his opinion that Jack Dougherty's testimony is such a "mess" that the best we can say of his claim to have taken the west freight elevator off the fifth floor just after the shooting is that--it's "possible". Can we state with any assurance or confidence that Dougherty did indeed do this? Not according to David we can't.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Sean,
You're elevating the "Dougherty/Elevator" episode to absurd levels of perceived importance.
Fact is: I don't know with 100% certainty how the elevator got down from the fifth floor shortly after the assassination took place. Nor do you.
But whether it was Dougherty or wasn't Dougherty on that elevator, the movement of that elevator doesn't suddenly eliminate all of the evidence that indicates Lee Harvey Oswald murdered two people in Dallas on 11/22/63.
SEAN MURPHY SAID:
On the contrary, David, if it wasn't Dougherty who brought that elevator down at that time, then your Lone Nut Theory is in deep trouble.
You disagree? Fine. Give us the name of another TSBD worker it could have been.
You can't, can you?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
How does the movement of an elevator on the FIFTH floor in any way affect the "Lone Nut Theory" that has Oswald shooting JFK from the SIXTH floor?
The two things aren't in any way related. Not even the same floor.
SEAN MURPHY SAID:
David, can you give us the name of a TSBD worker other than Jack Dougherty who could have brought down that elevator at that time? Yes or no?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
And if I can't name the person who used an elevator on the fifth floor, it means that Oswald is innocent and the lone-assassin scenario goes sliding down the tubes? Is that it?
You'd better start over, Sean. Because this elevator thing goes nowhere and you know it (even if it wasn't Dougherty who used it).
SEAN MURPHY SAID:
David, it's evident you can't offer the name of another TSBD worker who might have taken that elevator off the fifth floor at that time.
Okay. Where does that leave us?
Unless it was Dougherty, or unless there is some mysterious other TSBD worker whose name has somehow disappeared from the record, then it must have been someone who didn't work at the TSBD.
You disagree? Kindly explain where I've gone wrong.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You think a conspirator was stationed on the FIFTH floor for some purpose, do you Sean? What for?
SEAN MURPHY SAID:
David, you've made it clear that you don't think it's safe to say that Jack Dougherty was the person who took that elevator off the fifth floor at that time.
The furthest you've been willing to go on that score is that it's merely a "possibility".
Now here's your problem:
Either it was Dougherty or else it must have been someone who didn't work at the TSBD.
Why? Because all other TSBD workers are accounted for at that time.
Unless of course you've suddenly thought of a hitherto unknown TSBD worker who it could have been?
If so, then we're all ears.
If not, then we need to talk about why someone who didn't work in the building might have been up there at that precise time.
[...]
Can you offer us a credible scenario whereby someone who didn't work in that building would have been taking an elevator off the fifth floor immediately after the assassination of President Kennedy?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Sean,
Out of all the "possibilities" available, I'd say it was probably Jack Dougherty who took that elevator down from the fifth floor between the time Baker and Truly were calling up the shaft for an elevator to be turned loose and the time B&T got up to the fifth floor and noticed that the west elevator was not there.
I'll also add this:
Dougherty said he did NOT hear anyone yelling up the elevator shaft:
Mr. BALL - How did you come downstairs?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I used that push button elevator on the west side.
Mr. BALL - Did you hear Mr. Truly yell anything up the elevator shaft?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I didn't hear anybody yell.
But we know from Roy Truly's Warren Commission testimony that Truly DID yell the words "turn loose the elevator", with Truly testifying that he said those words "real loud...loud enough that anyone could have heard me if they had not been over stacking or making a little noise". And he yelled them "two times" [quotes from Roy Sansom Truly's WC testimony].
Therefore, it seems fairly clear to me that Jack Dougherty was not REAL CLOSE to those freight elevators at approximately 12:31 PM, which means he would not necessarily have been in a position to see Lee Harvey Oswald coming down the stairs from the sixth floor at just about that very same time when Truly was yelling "real loud" up that elevator shaft -- a loud yell that Dougherty never heard.
Now, you can argue that maybe Dougherty was hard of hearing, and that's why he failed to hear Roy Truly's "real loud" request to turn loose the elevator. But from the available testimony, it seems pretty obvious to me that Jack Dougherty was not within earshot of Truly's yells. Which means, ergo, that Dougherty was probably somewhere else on the fifth floor, further away from the elevators/stairway, when Truly was yelling and when Oswald was descending.
But, yes, to reiterate -- it probably was Jack Dougherty who took that elevator downstairs.
SEAN MURPHY SAID:
So, having had the full implications of your trashing of Jack Dougherty's testimony spelled out, you have suddenly and arbitrarily moved away from deeming his descent in the elevator merely "possible" and started describing it as "probable". Jack's testimony, it seems, can be pretty much relied upon after all.
Predictable--and hilariously shameless--backtracking, David!
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
That's not much of a "backtrack", Sean.
But if you want to think that my "possible" and then "probable" posts regarding Jack Dougherty and the freight elevator constitute "hilariously shameless backtracking" on my part -- go right ahead and think that.
But it's not much of a "Gotcha!", IMO.
SEAN MURPHY SAID:
Your antics on this issue have been most amusing David.
Yesterday you said: "I'd put a big ol' grain of salt by my side when evaluating anything in Dougherty's testimony."
Well, not "anything", as it turned out. When it came to evaluating Dougherty's testimony about taking the elevator down from the fifth floor, you suddenly realised how important it was that you fling the big ol' grain of salt right out of reach. Cue your shameless sudden upgrading of his story from "possible" to "probable".
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
"Possible" and "probable" can co-exist in a person's mind at the same time, Sean. When I said "that's possible" yesterday regarding Dougherty's alleged elevator excursion, that didn't exclude the idea that I also thought it was "probable". But keep thinking you got your "Gotcha!" in, if you want to.
But just to remind you -- neither of the words I used equates to the words "proven" or "definitely". That's why I utilized the words I did.
But I'm surprised you didn't jump all over me for another of my "shameless" attempts to have my cake and eat it too regarding the subject of Jack E. Dougherty:
I did, indeed, say that "a big ol' grain of salt" should be applied to ALL of Dougherty's testimony. But then I utilized his testimony about how he failed to hear Roy Truly's two "real loud" yells as totally reliable testimony. Shouldn't I have placed a "big ol' grain of salt" beside that testimony too?
IOW--shouldn't I believe that it's just as likely that Dougherty REALLY DID hear Truly yell up the elevator shaft, but he said he didn't?
BTW, can you explain how Dougherty missed hearing Truly's TWO loud yells that day (if Jack had been right near the elevators--and, hence, very near Oswald's stairway escape route too)?
And remember, Sean, you haven't placed any "big ol' grain of salt" beside anything uttered by Jack E. Dougherty---have you?
SEAN MURPHY SAID ALL THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
As I said before -- regardless of WHO took the elevator downstairs, it doesn't have to lead to "conspiracy" (which is something you unquestionably think it leads to if Dougherty didn't use the elevator).
Now, care to answer my last question, Sean?
SEAN MURPHY SAID:
Sure--the reliability of Dougherty's testimony is open to serious doubt.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Good. We finally agree on something.
Which, of course, leaves open the distinct possibility of Dougherty NOT being right near the elevators/stairway at 12:30 to 12:31 PM CST on 11/22/63. Which leaves open the distinct possibility (to the horror of the Anybody But Oswald CTers) that Lee Oswald used the stairs and Jack Dougherty just wasn't nearby to see him.
Thanks for confirming those possibilities for us, Sean. But the ABO crowd isn't going to like your conclusion.
SEAN MURPHY SAID:
No we don't agree on this. Post-U-turn, you [no] longer believe the basic reliability of Dougherty's testimony is open to serious doubt. What a difference a day makes.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You don't know what you're talking about. You now seem to believe that all of the stuff I ridicule Dougherty for in my article is now stuff that I deem 100% "reliable". You're hilarious.
And, FYI, everybody in JFK research "picks and chooses" the testimony they like best. We all do it. It's inevitable. Otherwise, every single witness would likely have to be thrown in the trash can, because there's almost always some part of each witness' testimony or statements or affidavit that we don't think is perfectly accurate (whether it be a "CTer" or an "LNer" doing the evaluating). So, to some degree, we always "pick and choose" the statements that best fit our overall beliefs regarding the case.
SEAN MURPHY SAID:
Now back to the question you keep running away from:
Can you give us a credible scenario whereby someone other than Jack Dougherty needed to take that elevator off the fifth floor at that time?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I've already said that I think it was "probably" Jack Dougherty who took the elevator downstairs. Why isn't that good enough for you?
SEAN MURPHY SAID:
You do believe the essential points of Dougherty's testimony as to his whereabouts and doings at the time of the assassination.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Oh sure, that must be why I said this a few posts back (which obviously means I do NOT accept Dougherty's testimony about being very near the elevator at 12:30):
"Dougherty said he did NOT hear anyone yelling up the elevator shaft. .... Therefore, it seems fairly clear to me that Jack Dougherty was not REAL CLOSE to those freight elevators at approximately 12:31 PM, which means he would not necessarily have been in a position to see Lee Harvey Oswald coming down the stairs from the sixth floor at just about that very same time when Truly was yelling "real loud" up that elevator shaft -- a loud yell that Dougherty never heard. .... From the available testimony, it seems pretty obvious to me that Jack Dougherty was not within earshot of Truly's yells. Which means, ergo, that Dougherty was probably somewhere else on the fifth floor, further away from the elevators/stairway, when Truly was yelling and when Oswald was descending."
-- DVP; July 19, 2013
PARTIAL REPRISE....
SEAN MURPHY SAID:
You do believe the essential points of Dougherty's testimony as to his whereabouts and doings at the time of the assassination.
Let's do a quick check:
Dougherty testified he was on the fifth floor at the time of the assassination: do you have any serious doubts about whether he was indeed there at that time?
Dougherty testified the reason he was there was to get stock: do you have any serious doubts about whether that was indeed the reason he was there?
Dougherty testified he took the west freight elevator down to the first floor shortly after this: do you any have serious doubts about whether he did indeed do this?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
So now I'm being taught how reliable and spot-on accurate Jack E. Dougherty's testimony is by a person who made the following statement just 2 hours and 15 minutes prior to writing the post quoted above:
"The reliability of Dougherty's testimony is open to serious doubt." -- Sean Murphy; July 19, 2013; 3:46 PM EDT
What a difference two hours can make, eh Sean?
The irony is hilarious indeed.
David Von Pein
July 16-20, 2013
