DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Oswald lied repeatedly about things he would have no reason to lie about if he was innocent. (Curtain rods, anyone? .... I never owned a rifle. .... Shelley told me I could leave.)
DONALD WILLIS SAID:
Oswald did NOT say, "Shelley told me I could leave".
This is actually an LN exaggeration. According to Fritz, Hosty, & Bookhout, it wasn't that cut & dry.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yes, Don, I will admit my (possible) error when I said this in an earlier post (re: Oswald's lies):
"Shelley told me I could leave."
What I should have said, instead, is this:
"I figured there would be no more work done that day, so I just went home."
The "Shelley" portion of that statement is possibly not accurate (although I don't know for sure that it is not accurate, and my comments and citation near the end of this post make it clear that the Warren Commission most certainly was not lying or making up false stories with respect to the topic of Bill Shelley).
Once again, the best place to turn for a detailed examination of virtually any sub-topic connected to the JFK assassination is Vincent Bugliosi's book "Reclaiming History", wherein we find these excerpts (and I'll have more to say about these VB book excerpts later in this post, explaining where Mr. Bugliosi has made a mistake here, which is really a mistake in the Warren Report):
[Bugliosi Quotes On:]
"There is one alleged lie of Oswald’s that doesn’t stand up. Page 182 of the Warren Report reads that “Oswald told [Captain] Fritz that after lunch [and presumably the shooting] he went outside, talked with Foreman Bill Shelley for 5 or 10 minutes and then left for home. He said that he left work because Bill Shelley said that there would be no more work done that day in the building.”
But there is nothing in the three citations the Warren Report gives to back this statement up. Indeed, the name Bill Shelley isn’t even mentioned in the text referred to by the three citations. (Shelley, by the way, testified that he did not tell anyone to go home after the shooting, and it is clear from his testimony that he did not see Oswald after the shooting [7 H 391; 6 H 329–331].)
Wondering where in the world the Commission had come up with this, if at all, the closest I could come is in the contemporaneous handwritten notes of Captain Fritz, taken at the time of the interrogation--five brief pages written during twelve hours of interrogation. Such severe condensation automatically causes distortion.
On page 1, Fritz writes, “Claims 2nd Floor Coke when Off [Officer] came in, to 1st fl had lunch, out with Bill Shelley in front. Left wk [work] opinion nothing be done that day.”
With respect to Fritz’s handwritten note that Oswald said he had lunch on the first floor after the confrontation with the officer on the second floor, Oswald couldn’t have told Fritz this, since he couldn’t expect anyone to believe that after his confrontation with the officer (Baker) in the second-floor lunchroom, which had to be after the shooting in Dealey Plaza, he proceeded to go down to the first floor and have his lunch and then left."
[DVP INTERJECTION --- Although Buell Wesley Frazier is on record as having done that very thing--i.e., eating his lunch inside the TSBD Building AFTER the assassination had taken place, amidst all the commotion and confusion following the shooting. It does, indeed, sound unbelievable, but Frazier did it anyway; and Frazier went DOWN INTO THE BASEMENT, no less, to eat his lunch after the shooting, making it even harder to believe, since such an eating location would be even further away from all the excitement and action following the assassination. Boy, Wesley must have been hungry that day! Back to Bugliosi's quotes now:]
"And in his subsequent thirteen-page typewritten report of his interrogations of Oswald (WR, pp.599–611), Fritz says that Oswald told him he was having lunch on the first floor at the time of the shooting. When Fritz asked him where he was when the officer stopped him, Oswald said he was on the second floor drinking a Coca-Cola. (Fritz doesn’t say, as his contemporaneous notes do, that Oswald then told him he returned to the first floor to have lunch.)
When Fritz asked him why he left the building thereafter, Oswald said there was so much excitement that he didn’t think there would be any more work that day. Fritz makes no reference to Oswald telling him that Shelley had told him this. (WR, pp.600–601)
It would seem that Fritz’s writing, in his handwritten notes, “Bill Shelley in front” probably was a reference to Oswald telling him during the interrogation that on his way out of the building, he saw Bill Shelley in front of the building.
In any event, I could find no evidence that Oswald told the lie that Shelley told him he could leave because there would be no more work that day." -- Vincent T. Bugliosi; Page 537 of Endnotes in "Reclaiming History" (c.2007)
---------------------
[End Bugliosi Quotes.]
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WHERE VINCENT BUGLIOSI WENT WRONG HERE:
This is actually a situation where Vince Bugliosi didn't know exactly where to look for a certain statement to confirm something that he saw in the Warren Commission Final Report.
And, in this particular (rare) instance, it would appear to be the fault of the Warren Commission itself, because the Warren Report's three citations attached to the page cited by Bugliosi above are, indeed, a bit misleading.
The WC should have added another citation to Source Note #695 on Page 828 of the Warren Report, and that citation was supplied by Donald Willis in this post, and I've confirmed it via Warren Report Page #619 [from FBI agent James Bookhout's 11/22/63 report concerning the matter]. Thanks Don.
Bookhout's FBI report dated 11/22/63 (and dictated on 11/24/63) specifically backs up (almost verbatim) the verbiage we find on Page 182 of the Warren Report that Vince Bugliosi cited in his book. Here's what we find in Bookhout's report:
“[Oswald] went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley, and thereafter went home. He [Oswald] stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelley, he did not believe that there was going to be any more work that day due to the confusion in the building.” -- WR; Page 619
Now, let's compare those words written by Jim Bookhout to the Warren Report passage on Page 182 (shown below):
“Oswald told Fritz that after lunch he went outside, talked with Foreman Bill Shelley for 5 or 10 minutes and then left for home. He said that he left work because Bill Shelley said that there would be no more work done that day in the building.”
So, quite obviously, the Warren Commission DID have a report to back up the above words printed on Page 182 of the Warren Report. It's just that the source note that was attached to those words didn't make reference to the specific source for these words found on that page: "Bill Shelley said that there would be no more work done that day in the building."
And I also think Vince Bugliosi was a little confused because of the first three words that we find in that paragraph on Page 182 -- "Oswald told Fritz".
Bugliosi, therefore, was probably searching for a specific "Shelley" reference ONLY in Captain Fritz's written notes and reports concerning this matter, instead of looking for additional references to "Shelley" elsewhere, such as Bookhout's reports.
It should also be noted that just because the Warren Commission was relying on a report submitted by FBI agent James Bookhout for the "Shelley" reference on Page 182, that doesn't mean that the Commission was incorrect when it said on the same page that "Oswald told Fritz" certain things.
And that's because Oswald WAS being interviewed BY CAPTAIN FRITZ at the time, not by BOOKHOUT. Bookhout just happened to be there, just as it says in Agent Bookhout's 11/22/63 report. We find these words at the very top of Bookhout's report:
"Lee Harvey Oswald was interviewed at the Homicide and Robbery Bureau, Dallas Police Department, by Captain J.W. FRITZ in the presence of Special Agent JAMES W. BOOKHOUT, Federal Bureau of Investigation."
David Von Pein
February 18, 2010
GREG PARKER SAID:
The second floor Baker-Truly-Oswald encounter was a pure fabrication.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You're silly.
JFK-Archives.blogspot.com/Oswald, Baker, Truly, And The Coke
CHARLES SAID:
Bookhout (FBI) did not join the interrogation of Oswald by Fritz until 3:15 pm, some 15 minutes after the interrogation started. Bookhout said in the interrogation sessions that he attended, questions and answers were not repeated. When Fritz left the room the interrogation stopped.
The notes that Fritz made about the coke, lunch, Shelley, and leaving were made in the first 15 minutes of Oswald's interrogation without the FBI present.
During one of Fritz's many interruptions, Bookhout copied Fritz's notes that were taken before the FBI was allowed to join the sessions.
During Bookhout's writing of his report, he assumed what the notes meant and then destroyed his notes. That is the reason you do not find Fritz saying in reports or testimony what you wish you could find.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
How do you know all this, Charles? Citation please.
And Bookhout supposedly just MADE UP the part about Oswald saying that he stood outside with Shelley for "5 or 10 minutes"??
Is that what you want to believe--that Bookhout just MADE UP the "5 or 10 minutes" portion of his 11/22/63 report?
Is there ANYBODY connected in any way with this case who wasn't a liar or a person doing underhanded and/or devious things? Anybody at all? (Besides a CTer's favorite cop, Roger D. Craig, that is.)
DONALD WILLIS SAID:
The FBI interview report [that appears on Page 619 of the WCR] was dated 11/24/63.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
It was DICTATED on November 24, yes. But there are TWO other dates on the document as well -- November 22 (lower left) and November 25 (upper right).
But the November 22 date at the lower left is, IMO, the most important date, because that is almost certainly the date when FBI agent James W. Bookhout WROTE THAT REPORT.
It wasn't dictated and typed up into an "official" report until November 24, true. But the material in the report was certainly WRITTEN on November 22.
What do you think the November 22 date means here, Donald? Do you think that date was inserted there for no reason whatsoever?
DONALD WILLIS SAID:
Yeah, even Oswald made some fibs.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID [REFERRING TO MY EARLIER POST RE: ROGER CRAIG]:
The (big) difference being:
Lee Oswald had a lot of reasons to lie--he had just murdered two people.
Roger Craig, OTOH, wasn't a murderer. He was just a big fat liar.
DONALD WILLIS SAID:
As noted elsewhere, Bookhout may have had nothing to do with it.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You're silly. It's BOOKHOUT'S OWN REPORT, for heaven's sake!
The bottom-line fact that arises to the surface after all this talk about Bill Shelley and Jim Bookhout's 11/22/63 FBI report is this:
There is positively a SOLID SOURCE for these words that we find on Page 182 of the Warren Commission Report:
“Oswald told Fritz that after lunch he went outside, talked with Foreman Bill Shelley for 5 or 10 minutes and then left for home. He said that he left work because Bill Shelley said that there would be no more work done that day in the building.”
And that source is James Bookhout's FBI report that appears on Page 619 of the Warren Report.
In other words -- The Warren Commission did NOTHING WRONG and was NOT MAKING STUFF UP when the Commission wrote what it wrote on Page #182 of its Final Report.
And upon realizing that the Bookhout report was obviously the source that was being relied upon by the Warren Commission when it wrote those words on Page 182, I wrote an e-mail to Vince Bugliosi (via his secretary) on February 18, 2010, to tell him about the Bookhout report, because Vince couldn't find any specific source for the "Bill Shelley" and "no more work done that day" portions of Page 182. ....
Subject: JFK Research
Date: 2/18/2010 4:57:30 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: David Von Pein
To: Rosemary Newton
------------------
Hi Rosemary,
I came across something today that I think Vince Bugliosi might be interested in seeing. Here's the link.
Thanks.
David Von Pein
==================================
Subject: Re: JFK Research
Date: 2/18/2010 12:21:25 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: Rosemary Celeste (Newton)
To: David Von Pein
------------------
Hi Dave,
Thanks so much for your e-mail. It was great hearing from you. I'll be faxing this to Vince and know it will be appreciated. Also, have a great 2010 (even though there's only about 10 months left.)
Regards, Rosemary
==================================
David Von Pein
February 19-20, 2010
