ANDREW MASON SAID:
A bullet did strike both men [JFK and John Connally], but it was the first bullet, based on all the evidence. The first bullet had to have occurred before z221.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I wonder how Andrew Mason can logically explain away what we see happening to Governor Connally in the following toggling frames of Mr. Zapruder's home movie -- if, as Mr. Mason suggests, the bullet that struck Connally occurred prior to Z221?
And then there is JFK's "HANDS BEGINNING TO RISE" reaction seen here too. I guess Andrew Mason must think that BOTH Kennedy and Connally must have experienced a perfectly in-unison delayed reaction to being hit by a bullet sometime prior to Z221 (and how much prior to Z221?).
The perfectly IN-SYNC upward arm movement of BOTH victims at exactly the same instant in time (Z226 exactly) provides good visual confirmation that a bullet has just gone through both men just an instant before that arm movement begins.
Plus, there's Connally's opening his mouth suddenly and the flinching of his shoulders (both things occurring at the exact same instant--at Z225), which can only be categorized as INvoluntary reactions to....something.
The SBT is happening before our very eyes....right here....
BRIAN WALKER SAID:
Wow. I have never seen it as clear as the one with just Connally. I don't know how anyone can argue anymore after seeing that.
ANDREW MASON SAID:
What you see is a reaction of both men to the first shot. JFK is reacting to the effects of being hit by it (which occurred very close to z197) and JBC is reacting, as he said, to hearing it and fearing that JFK was being assassinated.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
So, let me get this straight, Andrew....
You are saying that all of these things are merely Governor John B. Connally reacting to HEARING a gunshot just prior to Z224.....
1.) Connally's shoulder "flinch".
2.) Connally's "open mouth" at Z225 (his mouth was closed at Z224 from what I can see).
3.) The right side of Connally's jacket bulges outward, causing the lapel to flip very noticeably upward at exactly Z224.
4.) Connally's RIGHT ARM (the same arm/wrist that is injured during the shooting) quickly jerks up and down starting at exactly Z226.
You think ALL of the above 4 things--including the BIGGIE (the "right arm/hat dance" at Z226) were the effects of Mr. Connally only HEARING the sound of a rifle shot. Is that correct, Andrew?
I think you need to stare at these two clips a few more times, because it's highly unlikely that John Connally is JUST reacting to a noise here. His movements are telling us that something has just hit his body---and that right "arm flip" seals the deal, IMO....
Here's another view of the SBT in action (in real time). It's a small gif, but it gets the "SBT" point across quite nicely, especially after you stare at it ten times in a row....
(2).gif)
In addition, I've also mentioned in the past that it's my belief that we can see Connally's right shoulder pitch slightly FORWARD between Z223 and Z224, again pinpointing when Oswald's Bullet CE399 struck the Texas Governor.....
ANDREW MASON SAID:
Not quite. JBC's movements are not the result of him just hearing the sound of a rifle shot. It is the result of his recognition that it was an assassination attempt and his feeling of horror that the President of the United States was being assassinated right behind him.
The evidence tells you what happened and that you cannot tell from the film what JBC is reacting to. You have to look at the evidence. The evidence is that there has only been one shot at that point and that JBC was not hit in the chest by the first shot.
JBC's evidence, corroborated by several witnesses including Jackie and Nellie, was that he reacted immediately to the first shot by turning around in horror because he knew he had just heard a rifle shot and, fearing an assassination attempt, he wanted to see JFK. Everything we see in frames 225-270 is consistent with that reaction. In fact, there is a great deal of evidence that is inconsistent with JBC reacting to his chest wound until about z270.
So what you see from z225 -250, including the right arm/hat dance at z226, is, according to all the evidence, the result of the first shot. I don't see anything to indicate he is shot. There is no blood and he said he saw blood right away. He is deliberately turning around to his right and he appears to be trying to look behind him. I don't see anything resembling a turn to see JFK before z225.
BRIAN WALKER SAID:
LOL. Amazing.
Andrew is faced with making a really, really, really silly excuse to explain away the obvious proof that Connally was wounded here, or just admit that his research is wrong. Like most so-called conspiracy researchers, Andrew's choice [is] the really silly excuse.
I know when I saw someone get shot, at once my right arm flew up at an unreal rate of speed and the lapel on my coat went crazy.
ANDREW MASON SAID:
I find it interesting that your comments avoid the evidence and focus on your subjective impression of what you think you see. You might at least try to explain how all that evidence can exist if there had been two shots by z225.
BRIAN WALKER SAID:
Your evidence is JUST eye witness and ear witness testimony. Whenever I see someone making an argument using just witness testimony I know I am dealing with someone using totally unreliable data. You even goes so far to constantly quote Nelle Connally. How the heck would she know the exact instant her husband was wounded?
ANDREW MASON SAID:
I have always said that the SBT is wrong. But that does not mean one bullet did not strike both men.
[...]
The evidence is quite consistent that the first shot was after z186 and before z202. It is difficult to pinpoint the exact frame, but it was likely within a frame or two of z197.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Andrew,
Why in the world would Oswald fire at a time when the tree was directly between him and JFK's body? At Z160, as we can see, the tree would not have been in Oswald's sights. But if the shot landed HIGH AND TO THE RIGHT (as the post-assassination rifle tests indicated), the tree could very well have become a factor for a Z160 shot....
ANDREW MASON SAID:
You are using the flawed analysis of the FBI made 6 months after the assassination with the tree in full leaf after spring growth using the wrong car. A much better view from the SN that shows what Oswald would have seen is from the SS film made in early December 1963.
Here are some frames from this film with my analysis of the positions. The film (as you know, since you posted it) can be viewed on Youtube [and here] (the car emerges from under the tree at about 10:32-33).
It shows that JFK was visible when the car was halfway between the lamp post and the Thornton Freeway sign. My analysis shows that this occurred at frame z195. In the film, JFK is always visible as he passes under the tree, so Oswald could easily have tracked him through the tree and fired as soon as he was completely clear.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Andrew Mason is just one of several individuals I have encountered on the Internet over the years who can seemingly come PRETTY CLOSE to accepting the obvious truth of the Single-Bullet Theory, but he just can't quite travel that last yard or two to step into the SBT endzone.
Another person in that mold is Robert "I Know And Can Prove There Was A Shot Fired At Z285" Harris. He thinks that one bullet DID, indeed, go through both victims. But instead of accepting the truth of the "traditional" SBT (which, of course, includes Bullet CE399 doing all the damage to JFK & JBC), he's decided to invent a shooter in another building to accomplish his version of the "SBT".
And there are two published "Lone Assassin" authors who also endorse odd things -- Mark Fuhrman and Jim Moore. Fuhrman doesn't endorse any kind of "SBT" at all. He claims the bullet that went clean through JFK somehow veered upward and hit the chrome of the car instead of hitting Connally. While Jim Moore does believe in the SBT, but he has decided the two victims were struck at Frame 235 of the Zapruder Film. Which leaves Jim on a shaky limb, as it does with Andrew Mason, of trying to explain all that flinching and lapel moving and arm-jerking and mouth-opening that Mr. Connally engages in starting at Z224.
Fuhrman--get this--even goes so far as to say this on page 119 of his 2006 book ("A Simple Act Of Murder"):
"There is no visible indication that Connally has been shot until frame 237 [of the Zapruder Film]."
And then Fuhrman actually says this on page 162 of his book:
"If Kennedy and Connally were hit by the same bullet, their reactions would have been nearly simultaneous, or at least close enough to be indistinguishable from each other in time. Yet they were not even close."
Incredible, isn't it?
I guess Mr. Fuhrman must have never once looked at the frames of the Zapruder Film presented above....even though Fuhrman told Harry Smith in a CBS-TV interview in May of 2006 that he had seen the Z-Film "a thousand times".
ANDREW MASON SAID:
What makes you think that I am close to accepting the SBT? I don't agree that there is any evidence of a first shot miss. I don't agree that there is any evidence that JFK smiled and waved for 3 seconds after the first shot. I don't agree that there is any evidence that at least 2 dozen witnesses all made the same mistake of thinking that JFK had passed the lamp post nearest the Thornton freeway sign before the first shot was heard. I don't agree that the 40+ witnesses who heard the 1.......2...3 shot pattern were wrong. I don't agree that there is any evidence that the continuation of the right to left trajectory through JFK's midline comes anywhere close to JBC's right armpit.
So what exactly is it that you think makes me close to accepting the SBT? That is a very different question than whether Oswald fired all three shots. There is overwhelming evidence, which I accept, that he did.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
But you just can't QUITE see fit to agree with either the Warren Commission or the HSCA regarding that SBT. ALL of those people who were assigned the task of studying the evidence were dead wrong regarding one bullet passing through both men. And Andrew Mason is right. Right?
And Connally's sudden and rapid arm-raising activity is merely a result of the Texas Governor HEARING a gunshot and nothing more. Correct?
Forgive me if I beg to differ.
ANDREW MASON SAID:
No. I am saying that the witnesses were right. It has nothing to do with my opinion about the evidence. The WC was not unanimous on the SBT (it was 4:3 as I recall). They could not figure out what occurred. They had three scenarios and could not conclude which shot missed because there was strong evidence that each of those shots hit someone (although it appears that the First Shot SBT was the one they found most likely). And the HSCA was out to lunch on the final conclusion and you don't even agree with their z190 SBT consensus. So I don't find your argument very persuasive.
[...]
By the way, David: what makes the car rock like that?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Note the very subtle ways that Andrew Mason has of disregarding the FOUR BIG THINGS happening to Connally at Z224-Z230 (the flinch, the open mouth, the arm flip, and the lapel bulge).....
"Your clips are misleading. You make it look like Jackie is moving but JFK is not." -- A. Mason
"What makes the car rock like that?" -- A. Mason
I don't even know what either of the above two comments by Andrew are supposed to be implying. The main object of attention in the clips I provided is, of course, Governor John B. Connally (and JFK in some of the clips too, but mainly all those things discussed earlier happening to Connally).
So, Andrew decides to focus on JACKIE and the "rocking" car. (Huh? The car's not rocking at all.)
But even if the car is "rocking" and even if there's something weird going on with Jackie's movements (from Andrew's POV, that is), what would those things have to do with the "Big Four" items regarding JOHN CONNALLY?
I'm getting a sense from Andrew's comments that he thinks the person who culled those clips did something underhanded with them to make them appear as they do.
In other words -- let's blame the film. It MUST be wrong because I (Andrew Mason) don't think the SBT is true.
JACK BONE SAID:
What you have to remember is that the SBT could be correct, but it still does not prove that Oswald fired the fatal head shot.
Lone Nutters seem to think that if they can prove there was only 3 shots that it is job done. I must admit, I never believed the SBT and am still not positive, but this is the best evidence I have seen for its existence and I am grateful for that. It is very convincing.
TIM NICKERSON SAID:
It's either a single bullet or two shots fired simultaneously. That Kennedy and Connally were both hit at the same time circa z221-224 is not something that should even be open for debate. Not anymore anyway.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Let's now have a look at these two totally contradictory statements made by Andrew Mason:
"A bullet did strike both men but it was the first bullet, based on all the evidence." -- A. Mason
"The bullet that struck Connally in the back was the second bullet. .... I have always agreed that JBC reacted to the first shot. I have just said, as the Connallys had always said, that he was not hit in the back by it." -- A. Mason
After reading those two quotes, all I can do now is shrug my shoulders in bewilderment.
TIM NICKERSON SAID:
David,
The two statements are not contradictory. They are silly, to be sure, but not contradictory. Andrew purports that somewhere between z186 and z202, the first shot passed through Kennedy's neck and then went on to shallowly enter Connaly's left thigh. A 65+ degree right rotation of Connally's upper torso allowed the bullet to miss his back. The second shot at circa Z270 struck Connally in the back.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Oh, okay. I see. Thank you for the clarification, Tim.
I've spoken with Andrew Mason on the JFK forums in the past, but I haven't memorized everyone's individual personal theories regarding the JFK case. I probably have even seen some of Andrew's online posts where he talks about his "Two Bullets Hit Connally" theory in the past too, but I've simply forgotten about it. My apologies to Andrew if that is the case.
So, now the big question remaining (besides the previous attempts by Andrew to try and reconcile all of that flinching and arm-jerking within a theory that has Governor Connally doing all those things simply because he HEARD the sound of a rifle shot) is this one:
Where did the bullet go that exited Connally's chest but (per Mr. Mason) did NOT go on to embed itself into his left thigh?
I guess Andrew must think that bullet flew out of the car entirely after striking Connally's right wrist. Or I suppose Andrew could claim that the separate Connally chest/wrist bullet is the bullet that struck the limo's windshield and chrome and resulted in fragments CE567 & 569 dropping into the front seat.
Well, I suppose such theories are physically possible, yes. But given the fact that the Governor had that superficial shallow wound in his leg too, I wonder how likely it would be that the thigh wound and the wrist/chest wounds were not caused by the same missile?
Plus, Andrew's theory faces an additional major obstacle when we look at the testimony of the FBI's Robert Frazier (with respect to what he says would very likely have happened to a high-speed rifle bullet if that bullet had gone through President Kennedy's upper back and throat but had NOT gone on to hit anyone else in the Presidential limousine and had, instead, struck the car's windshield after exiting JFK's throat)....
ARLEN SPECTER -- "Mr. Frazier, assume certain facts to be true for purposes of expressing an opinion on a hypothetical situation, to wit: that President Kennedy was struck by a 6.5-millimeter bullet which passed through his body entering on the rear portion of his neck 14 centimeters to the left of his right acromion process and 14 centimeters below his mastoid process, with a striking velocity of approximately 1,904 feet per second, and exited after passing through a fascia channel in his body, through the lower anterior third of his neck with an exit velocity of approximately 1,772 to 1,779 feet per second; and that bullet had then traveled from the point where it exited from his neck and struck the front windshield in some manner. What effect would that have had on the front windshield and the subsequent flight of the missile?"
ROBERT A. FRAZIER -- "It would have shattered the front windshield. It would have caused a very large, relatively large hole, approximately three-eighths to an inch in diameter with radiating cracks extending outward into the glass for several inches, even to the side of the glass."
ALLEN W. DULLES -- "It would have penetrated the windshield?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir."
MR. SPECTER -- "Would the missile then have proceeded in a forward direction?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir; it would."
MR. SPECTER -- "Do you have an opinion as to how far it would have gone?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Until it struck some other object in the area of approximately a mile."
-------------
Given the above testimony and expert opinions provided by Mr. Frazier of the FBI, can anyone envision a bullet exiting JFK's throat and merely causing a very minor superficial wound to the left thigh of Governor Connally? Such a bullet striking Connally's leg would have certainly caused more damage than was done to that leg.
DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:
Andrew,
In my opinion, you're placing far too much faith in the witnesses, and you're expecting far too much SPOT-ON ACCURACY in those witnesses when it comes to the specific and exact timing of the shots.
A good example to illustrate how a large number of witnesses can be dead wrong about something that they each claimed they saw would be the many Parkland Hospital witnesses who attended President Kennedy in Trauma Room 1. A large number of those Parkland physicians and nurses, as you know, said there was a large wound in the back (occipital) part of JFK's head.
.jpg)
But, of course, we know that those witnesses were ALL wrong when we look at the BEST evidence to determine where the large head wound was located--and that evidence is the autopsy photographs and X-rays....
And you don't think the above photo and X-ray are fakes, do you Andrew?
I appreciate your last fair-minded post, Andrew. But in the final analysis, I have to rely on the best evidence there is when the "Single-Bullet Theory" topic comes up. And one of the pieces of "best evidence" in that debate is the film taken by Abraham Zapruder.
And based on the clips I have shown previously, the only reasonable conclusion to come to, in my view, is that both JFK and John Connally were hit by (and reacting simultaneously to) ONE single bullet that pierced both of their bodies at circa Z224 of the Zapruder Film.
Plus, there is additional evidence that supports the SBT too, such as the autopsy report (which clearly states that a bullet went clear through JFK's upper body, exiting from the throat)....plus the lack of any other bullets, except for CE399, that can be directly linked to any of the wounds to Connally or to any of JFK's non-fatal wounds.
I disagree with your assertion that CE567 and CE569 could have come from a separate bullet that struck Connally's wrist. I can't PROVE you're wrong, naturally. Just as I can't positively PROVE that those front-seat fragments were from the fatal shot to JFK's head. But I think they probably were from the head shot.
All of the necessary elements and ingredients are there to fully support the Single-Bullet Theory. Such as:
1.) There are no mysterious "missing" bullets that need to be accounted for. CE399 does the job very nicely. And it just happens to be a bullet that was found on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital--and it was almost certainly Governor Connally's stretcher.
2.) The Zapruder Film, as I have illustrated many times earlier, most certainly supports the idea that one single bullet traversed the bodies of both JFK and Mr. Connally.
3.) And the two limo victims are aligned properly to accept a single bullet at circa Z224, as Dale Myers has (IMO) proven beyond a reasonable doubt via his detailed computer simulation (which is based on the Zapruder Film itself):
Do you, Andrew, think the above screen capture from Mr. Myers' work is completely out of whack?
FWIW, I'll also add this 11/22/63 video clip of one of Governor Connally's Parkland doctors (Robert Shaw), in which he states that it was his opinion that "one bullet" very likely caused all of Connally's wounds....
David Von Pein
September 6-8, 2014 [This forum link is no longer available.]
