WENDI SAID:
Please indicate where the shooting re-enactment was done which shows that a shooter duplicates the alleged shooting done by Oswald -- 3 shots in 6.5 seconds on a moving target at 15 mph at 75 yard range. A bolt action must be moved away from the shooter's face in order to work the bolt and reload. Much more time is required. I would like an exact on point re-enactment of the shooting.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
First off, Oswald had approx. 8.36 seconds to get off his three shots, and the limousine was not moving as fast as 15 MPH either. It was more like 11.2 MPH, and even slower than that by the time of the fatal head shot at Zapruder Film frame 313.
Wendi needs to watch the video below (which proves that a Carcano rifle can be fired very quickly and with good accuracy when shooting at a MOVING target). One of these CBS shooters got three hits on the target in 5.2 seconds! And another shooter got off three shots in 4.1 seconds (with 1 hit):
But no matter how many times the conspiracy nuts are shown the above tests conducted by CBS News in 1967 (or told about the existence of those tests), the conspiracy kooks will continue to regurgitate the "It Couldn't Be Done" mantra.
Sad. Isn't it?
David Von Pein
April 22, 2009
BEN HOLMES SAID:
Monty Lutz, an expert rifleman and ballistics expert who served on the firearms panel of the House Select Committee on Assassinations, conceded during a 1986 mock Oswald trial that to his knowledge no marksman had duplicated Oswald's supposed shooting feat. Lutz made this admission when he was cross-examined by leading trial attorney Gerry Spence:
Spence: "Would it be true that in the history of the whole world, to your knowledge, nobody has ever duplicated what Lee Harvey Oswald was supposed to have done with that supposed rifle from the sixth floor of the Texas Book Depository? That's true, isn't it?"
Lutz: "I do not know of any test that's been done from the School Book Depository in an attempt to duplicate it."
[...]
Spence: "You don't know of anybody that has ever duplicated what Lee was supposed to have done, do you?"
Lutz: "I do not."
Spence: "Not even master marksmen. Isn't that true?"
Lutz: "I do not."
Lutz, an expert shot himself, also testified that he conducted his own rifle test but that he failed to duplicate Oswald's supposed shooting feat.
Ouch!
HENRY SIENZANT SAID:
By duplicate, what is meant? Shooting at targets from the exact same location; Killing JFK; Duplicating all the wounds with the precise entry and exit points; Striking a moving target in the head (the shot that killed JFK); Or something else entirely?
We've covered all this before. You just keep ignoring the rebuttals and reposting the same nonsense.
I can flip a coin twenty times and it is very easy for me to do that. For you to DUPLICATE that feat precisely, you can flip coins for a year and probably not duplicate it. The odds of you precisely duplicating the twenty coin flips I made easily are one in over a million and very difficult for you to duplicate.
But that has no bearing on how hard it was for me to flip a coin twenty times. It was EASY for me to do.
Ditto with Oswald's feat. He wasn't trying to accomplish the assassination in a specific way, he was just trying to accomplish the assassination. Many people believe Oswald missed the limo on his first shot, hit JFK in the back with his second shot, and then shot JFK in the head with his third shot (he had a fourth bullet in the rifle in case he needed it, but he didn't).
The entire time span of the shooting is argued to be about nine seconds, with the first shot starting the clock, so you really need to get only two more shots in the next nine seconds, and only strike JFK in the head once to duplicate the assassination.
If you kill JFK on your first shot, that's all you really need to do to duplicate the assassination. Because that's what Oswald did - assassinate JFK, but it took him three tries to do so.
So what is meant by DUPLICATE?
Shooting at targets from the exact same location? --
No attempt was made to shoot at targets from the TSBD, so no attempt to duplicate the shooting that way was ever tried.
Killing JFK? --
JFK is already dead, so any attempt to kill him again and duplicate the shooting that way is bound to fail.
Duplicating all the wounds with the precise entry and exit points? --
The so-called magic bullet has been attempted and they (the Discovery Channel - see BEYOND THE MAGIC BULLET) came close to duplicating the damage and the bullet emerged in one piece. The damage to the skull was pretty much duplicated in shooting tests conducted for the Warren Commission.
Striking a moving target in the head (the shot that killed JFK)? --
This has been done in tests conducted by CBS but with the same make and model rifle as Oswald used, but not the same rifle.
Or something else entirely? --
Name it, let's discuss.
Once you define what you mean by duplicate, we can discuss whether Lutz was correct or not. Or whether you're even asking the right question or not.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
During his testimony [seen below] at the 1986 mock Oswald trial in London, firearms expert Monty Lutz said he performed a series of tests with a 6.5-millimeter Carcano rifle in May of 1986 and he was able to hit all three of the targets in just 3.6 seconds. The targets were stationary targets, however. They were not moving targets.
But I'd say 3 hits in 3.6 seconds with a so-called "hunk of junk" rifle is pretty darn good, even if the targets weren't moving. (And almost all conspiracy theorists DO, indeed, consider ALL Mannlicher-Carcano rifles to be "hunks of junk", and that would include the one Monty Lutz used for his tests in 1986.)
BEN HOLMES SAID:
As Michael Griffith pointed out: "Monty Lutz, a former member of the HSCA's firearms panel and an expert rifleman in his own right, stated during the 1986 mock Oswald trial sponsored by a British television company that to his knowledge no one had ever duplicated Oswald's alleged shooting feat."
So tell us Davy - who is more likely to be lying?
Did Lutz state what Michael Griffith said?
Yes or no?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You're being silly, Ben (again).
Lutz said he was able to hit the test target 3 times with 3 shots in just 3.6 seconds. Sounds pretty good to me.
Although, yes, Lutz was probably a more qualified shooter than Oswald was. But Oswald himself achieved the status of "Sharpshooter" in the U.S. Marine Corps in 1956, firing a 212 on the rifle range at that time.
Do you, Ben, think that the United States Marine Corps has a habit of labelling their members "Sharpshooters" if they are really lousy riflemen? I kind of doubt it.
I'll also point out that Monty Lutz said that in addition to achieving a 3-for-3 in 3.6 seconds score during his 1986 rifle tests, he also (in effect) duplicated Oswald's 2-for-3 shooting performance on EACH AND EVERY ONE of the five total tests he performed on the rifle range in May of 1986.
So an argument could be made (with the "stationary targets" reminder in place) that Mr. Lutz actually duplicated Lee Harvey Oswald's 11/22/63 Dallas shooting feat FIVE consecutive times in 1986 by achieving at least a 2-for-3 score on all five of his tests (with one of those tests resulting in a perfect 3-for-3 score), thereby matching or beating Oswald's very same 2-for-3 shooting performance.
Lutz/Spence Addendum:
I got a kick out of defense lawyer Gerry Spence's comment during his questioning of Monty Lutz when Spence pointed out that Lutz had conducted his rifle tests with his "feet on the floor".
Yeah, right Gerry....as if Oswald was firing his gun at JFK while floating in mid-air ABOVE the surface of the floor in the Book Depository.
News flash for Gerry Spence! --- Lee Harvey Oswald's feet were also "on the floor" when he was assassinating President Kennedy in Dallas in 1963!
BEN HOLMES SAID:
I invite everyone to go to Lutz's testimony - and fast forward to right around the 4:45 mark...and watch the PROOF that Davy has lied.
Tell us Davy - aren't you embarrassed to provide a citation to the PROOF that you're a liar?
[Lutz] stated that the alleged shooting feat had never been duplicated.
So tell us Davy - which statement was the lie?
And why are *YOU* lying about it?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Ben's being silly yet again.
Lutz said to Spence (and Ben himself even quoted this earlier) -- "I do not know of any test that's been done from the School Book Depository in an attempt to duplicate it."
Ergo, when Lutz stated that he was unaware of anyone duplicating Oswald's EXACT feat, he had it in his mind that an exact duplication could only be achieved by firing the shots from the sixth floor of the Book Depository.
So, quite rightly (given those parameters laid out by Lutz for "duplication" of the shooting), Lutz said that the feat had never been duplicated to his knowledge.
But the fact remains that Lutz did something that conspiracy kooks must hate with a passion --- he BEAT Lee Harvey Oswald's shooting performance WITH A CARCANO RIFLE in a key fashion by getting a 3-for-3 score in way under the time that Oswald had to do his shooting in '63. Lutz cut Oswald's time by more than 50%, with Lutz getting three hits in just 3.6 seconds.
Conspiracy believers must really hate that fact.
David Von Pein
January 6, 2015 [This forum link is no longer available.]
