RICH POPE SAID:
Call me naive but...I knew JFK was disliked by a lot of people. But after reading some of Farewell America last night, I learned he was hated by everyone. He was hated by poor blacks, blue collar workers, almost everyone in government, the military, almost everyone in business, academia, women...
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Oh sure. That's why the following two facts existed after JFK's death---because "everyone" hated him so much.... ~eyeroll~
"In a large-sample national poll in March of 1964...an astonishing 53 percent of those interviewed said they had wept when they heard the news of Kennedy's death (New York Times, March 7, 1964, p.11). This percentage is remarkable by itself, and becomes even more so when you factor in the number of people who, though grieving as much, cannot bring tears to their eyes."
[...]
"With respect to President Kennedy's grave site, in 1962, the year before Kennedy was assassinated, one million people visited Arlington National Cemetery. During the six months following the assassination, NINE million came."
-- Vincent Bugliosi; Pages 142 and 1504 of "Reclaiming History"
David Von Pein
February 27, 2019
RICH POPE SAID:
Ok. So, if LHO didn't shoot JFK from the 6th floor "sniper's nest" of the TSBD, can we for sure put a shooter other than Oswald there? Or was that a staged sniper's nest?
PAUL JOLLIFFE SAID:
There is no credible evidence that "Oswald" was up in that sniper's nest at 12:30, shooting with that Mannlicher-Carcano. There is considerable evidence that two people were up there for several minutes before 12:30, and some evidence that at least one of them was still at the nest for 90 seconds or so, rearranging boxes. (Which dovetails nicely, by the way, with the "escape through the floorboards to the passenger elevator shaft" theory.)
It seems almost certain that someone was at that window, menacing the parade with a firearm, and possibly even fired some shots, but whether any of those shots struck home is uncertain.
(That other shots struck various points in Dealey Plaza is highly likely. The evidence for those shots was promptly ignored by the Warren Commission, predictably. Note the various nicks mentioned in the article below.)
Beyond that, I'm not certain we can say anything "for sure"....
http://jfk.hood.edu/Weisberg Subject Index Files/Item 098.pdf
STEPHANIE GOLDBERG SAID:
What about the remains of Bonnie Ray Williams' lunch on the 6th floor that were originally assumed to belong to the assassin? That also puts him on the sixth floor shortly before the shooting. (Unless, of course, that's long since been debunked.)
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Hi Stephanie,
Yes, you're right about Bonnie Ray Williams being on the sixth floor shortly before 12:30 that day, but we also KNOW he could not possibly have been a "shooter"....because we know that Williams was on the FIFTH floor at the moment of the shooting....and this photograph proves it:
STEPHANIE GOLDBERG SAID:
Yes, I know that he wasn't the shooter.
If I remember correctly, lunch at the Book Depository was 12 noon to 12:45 pm. And we know the window photo places him on the 5th floor at 12:30. My train of thought here is wondering what he did or didn't say about why he ate his lunch up there and didn't see Oswald or anyone else on the 6th floor setting up a sniper's nest.
And then there's the fact that he left the remains of his lunch up there. Was he a slob? Was he in such a hurry to go downstairs that he couldn't pick up his trash? And was it his usual practice to eat alone on the sixth floor?
Just thinking out loud since we're talking about placing people on the sixth floor.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Why not just read Bonnie Ray Williams' Warren Commission testimony and find out?
(My favorite part of Bonnie Ray's testimony has always been the "chicken-on-the-bone sandwich" that he had for lunch on 11/22. Mmm! Sounds delicious! A dentist's delight!) :)
STEPHANIE GOLDBERG SAID:
Thank you for the link. I did read the testimony. I'm not sure that it answered all of my questions, but the Warren Commission testimony always makes for interesting reading.
TONY KROME SAID:
Where do you place Oswald as Williams munches on his chicken bone sandwich?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
In the Sniper's Nest, trying to keep as quiet (and as low) as he can while Williams is there on the same sixth floor just a couple of windows west of Oswald's location.
More HERE.
RON BULMAN SAID:
Think Oswald got hungry smelling the fried chicken? Did he eat his cheese sandwich while waiting for JFK, race down the stairs after shooting JFK for a coke to wash it down, and of course throw his wrapping for the sandwich in the trash there as any good Commie would do? Before sauntering out onto the front steps after he met Baker and Truly, where?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You've got several things occurring there, Ron, that are merely speculation on your part. (And I admit, I'm speculating about several things too in my Oswald Timeline. Some things we have to speculate about, if we want to discuss them at all, such as Oswald's whereabouts at various times throughout the day of November 22, 1963).
Your speculation above includes Oswald eating a cheese sandwich. But there's no proof he ever ate anything at all for his lunch that day. We only have his word for that. And I don't think that Oswald's "word" is exactly a highly reliable source to go on if you're looking for the truth connected to either murder that Oswald himself was charged with committing. In short, Lee Harvey Oswald lied about a lot of things after his arrest that day.
TONY KROME SAID:
Is this how you imagine it?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yes, that's about right.
And we know from the re-enactment performed in this 1964 Secret Service film that a person who was sitting or squatting within the Sniper's Nest in the southeast corner of that sixth floor would definitely be hidden from the view of other people who might have been standing to the west of the Sniper's Nest. (Go to 11:33 in that linked video to see the re-enactment.)
Bonnie Ray Williams, in his Warren Commission testimony, said:
"I ate my lunch--I am not sure about this, but the third or the fourth set of windows, I believe."
Now, regardless of which end of the building Williams was referring to as his starting point (East or West) when he said "the third or the fourth set of windows", it likely means that Williams ate his lunch pretty close to the MIDDLE part of the sixth floor (given the fact that there are seven total "sets" of windows comprising the width of the Book Depository Building).
Given the way the book cartons were stacked up around the southeast corner window *, I can easily envision Oswald being able to hide from the view of Bonnie Ray Williams during the brief period of time that Williams was up on the sixth floor on November 22.
* The linked photo (CE726) is, however, probably a "reconstructed" arrangement of the boxes. I'm not positive of that fact, but since the photo in CE723 was taken on November 25, 1963 (per the information found at 17 H xvii), then it's probably safe to assume that the picture seen in CE726 is a reconstructed photo as well.
TONY KROME SAID:
Let's take a look at a small part of Rowland's testimony without concerning ourselves with the remainder:
Mr. SPECTER - Over how long a time span did you observe the Negro man? [Rowland believes 6th floor, so this question relates to that]
Mr. ROWLAND - He was there before I noticed the man with the rifle. [Rowland stated he saw this Rifle man at approx 12:15pm]
At this point, Dave, I'm not interested in the man with the rifle, nor the location of Negro man or Rifle man, only the timestamp.
Rowland places a Negro man on the 6th floor just before 12:15pm and you have have placed Williams on the 6th floor at the same time as per the photo I presented to you.
Do you think it's a sheer fluke that Rowland stated that there was a Negro man on the 6th floor at just before 12:15pm and that it turned out to be a fact?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Well, the black man Arnold Rowland saw on the sixth floor could very well have been Bonnie Ray Williams. We know from Williams' own testimony that he WAS on the sixth floor at about that time (approx. 12:10 to 12:20 PM).
We can know from Williams' testimony, however, that he was never located in the southeast corner window, even though Rowland places him there at one point during his testimony. But Williams himself tells us that cannot be the case.
So, should we believe Williams or Rowland? I'd choose Williams in this instance, since he would be more aware of where he was on the sixth floor than Rowland would be.
I know where you're going with this line of thought, of course ---- You're wondering how the heck Rowland could have seen Williams BEFORE he saw the gunman STANDING in front of the window on the WEST side of the sixth floor, and yet not have Williams seeing the gunman (Oswald) too.
Well, that's a fair point.
My answer would be----
Arnold Rowland was just a little bit inaccurate with respect to some of the timestamps he put on the things he saw on 11/22/63....which couldn't be more common among witnesses.
Another possibility is that Rowland didn't really see any Negro on the sixth floor that day. Instead, he could have seen Harold Norman "hanging out" of the FIFTH-floor window directly under the sixth-floor Sniper's Nest window.
I think several witnesses made that same "5th or 6th floor?" mistake on November 22nd. They claimed things were happening on the SIXTH floor (in the southeast corner window), but what they very likely were seeing was occurring in the FIFTH-floor window instead. (Check out the affidavits of witnesses Ronald Fischer and Robert Edwards for verification of this phenomenon.)
TONY KROME SAID:
So we have Rowland's eyes directly on the 6th floor at just before 12:15pm where he likely saw Williams.
Now, you place Oswald with a rifle on the 6th floor at 12:15pm and Rowland believes he saw a man with a rifle on the 6th floor at 12:15pm.
Again, forget about the location, but do you see a pattern here? Rowland gets it right again, he believed he saw a rifle man on the 6th floor at 12:15pm, and according to you, this is another fact.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
In the past, I've talked about the timing of Arnold Rowland's observations....
http://jfk-archives/Arnold Rowland & The Black Man
TONY KROME SAID:
Yes, I've read that,
But we've moved on from the "black" man. You have Williams as moving to the 5th floor around the 12:15pm mark, so he's gone.
I want to get into more detail, so I was hoping you could address this:
Rowland gets it right again, he believed he saw a rifle man on the 6th floor at 12:15pm, and according to you, it's a fact that a rifle man was on the 6th floor at 12:15pm.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yes, Tony, it's true that I believe that a lone rifleman (named Oswald) was located on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building at 12:15 PM CST on 11/22/63.
And YES, I do believe that Arnold Rowland "got it right" when he said he saw a man holding a rifle on the sixth floor of the TSBD before any shooting occurred in Dealey Plaza that day. And that is one of the reasons I disagree with Vincent Bugliosi on this point. He thinks Rowland was making up tall tales. But it's Rowland's testimony about seeing the gunman prior to the motorcade arriving, and telling his wife about it at that time (BEFORE the motorcade arrived) that convinces me that Mr. Rowland was not just making up a story out of whole cloth.
And it's really the testimony (and the 11/22/63 affidavit) of Rowland's wife, Barbara Rowland, that cinches the deal for me on Arnold Rowland's truthfulness. Because she too would have to be making up a lie (or she would have to be willing to just go along with her husband's lie) in order for Arnold's testimony to be false about seeing a man with a gun on the 6th floor before the shooting even started. And I see no reason to believe that Mrs. Barbara Rowland was a liar.
TONY KROME SAID:
Ok, now we bring in the location....
You have Oswald hiding in the Sniper's Nest while Williams is munching on a chicken bone sandwich.
Williams then departs for the 5th floor.
I assume you have Oswald all alone at this point on the 6th floor.
Rowland was quite specific on where he saw the rifle man, and that was the southwest corner, where he drew an arrow to on CE356.
Is there an impossibility, in your mind, that Oswald could not have walked from the Sniper's Nest to the southwest corner, surveyed the area from this viewpoint, and returned to the Sniper's Nest?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I think it's quite possible that Oswald did exactly what you just suggested above, Tony. And in my previously-linked "Oswald Timeline" (which I originally wrote at the alt.conspiracy.jfk Usenet newsgroup on April 16, 2007), I theorize about a similar scenario:
"11:55 AM-12:05 PM (estimated) -- Oswald has the whole sixth floor to himself. This is just prior to Bonnie Ray Williams coming back up to the 6th Floor to eat his lunch. It's my belief that Lee Oswald, during this (approx.) 10-minute time period around noon or shortly after, probably went to the west end of the sixth floor (where he had his rifle hidden in the brown bag). Oswald unwraps the rifle at the west end of the sixth floor and assembles the rifle at the west end (hence, Arnold Rowland sees a white man with a rifle at the west end of the building at approx. this time, maybe a little later, 12:15 or so, but keep in mind the approximation of all times). It's quite possible, IMO, that Oswald initially was considering using the WEST-end window as his shooting window. But, for one reason or another, he decided that a window on the EAST end of the sixth floor would better serve his purposes. Perhaps he was mentally factoring in the angles and trajectories in his head, and possibly realized that an east-end perch would be a better one, especially since the Secret Service agents would all have their backs to him when he began firing, if he decided to wait until after the cars had turned the Elm/Houston corner....which, IMO, Oswald definitely had in his mind to do, due to the pre-arranged way the rifle-rest boxes were constructed (i.e., in a "Rifle Always Pointing West/Southwest" manner). It's also possible that, as Oswald mulled over potential shooting locations, he realized that a goodly number of boxes were already down on the east end of the 6th Floor, which would make constructing a makeshift "Nest" all the easier for him."
-- DVP; April 2007
----------------
Let me also add this....
When re-examining the timelines provided by Arnold Rowland and Bonnie Ray Williams, it's very possible, in my opinion, that BOTH Rowland and Williams might very well be correct in their timelines (or pretty close to being accurate anyway).
I said earlier --- "Arnold Rowland was just a little bit inaccurate with respect to some of the timestamps he put on the things he saw."
But when comparing Rowland's timeline with Bonnie Ray's, it could be that Rowland's timing was fairly accurate, because Williams said he got to the sixth floor to eat his lunch at "about 12", and he also said: "I was there from--5, 10, maybe 12 minutes".
That timeline provided by Williams would mean he left the sixth floor no later than 12:12 PM, which would be three minutes before Rowland said he saw the white man with a rifle on the west end of the sixth floor.
So that "merging" of the Rowland/Williams timelines fits very nicely, and it does no harm whatsoever to the "Oswald Did It Alone" scenario that I firmly endorse. And via that "merging" of timelines, Rowland can, indeed, see a Negro (Williams) on the sixth floor BEFORE he sees a white man with a rifle standing on the west side of the same sixth floor. And this can occur without the need of Williams seeing Oswald standing at the west end---because Williams has already left the 6th floor via this scenario.
Then, after Williams departs the 6th floor between approximately 12:05 and 12:12 PM (per Williams' own estimate), Oswald then moves (for some unknown reason that nobody will ever be able to fully figure out) from the Sniper's Nest (where he had been temporarily "hiding" from Williams) to the west side of the building, where (again, for some unknown reason) he decides to make himself and his Mannlicher-Carcano rifle plainly visible to Arnold L. Rowland, as Oswald stands in front of the west-end window while holding his rifle.
David Von Pein
February 27—March 1, 2019 [This forum link is no longer available.]
